BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:01 PM

You defendit its use -

No, I just explained the legal position.

then you denied it was being used

No, I just said there was no evidence for it except an accusation by some Palestinian organisation, and Russia Today.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:14 PM

" According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, IDF tanks fired six anti-personnel munitions at the village of Khuzaa on July 17, resulting in the injury of one Palestinian woman. [10]"



6 tank rounds, with deadly flechettes, and they were only able to injure ( NOT KILL) one woman.

Boy, what active proof of genocidal intent.




We had best send the World Court to Michigan- they PLAY WITH KNIVES there!

KENTWOOD, Mich. (AP) — A 9-year-old boy who was repeatedly stabbed by a 12-year-old boy at a playground in western Michigan has died, police said Tuesday.

OBVIOUS GENOCIDAL INTENT!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

But then, to Jimmy, Israel WOUNDING one Palestinian woman is a WAR CRIME, while HAMAS killing 160 Palestinian children is fine by him.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM

You mean the Islamists that Jimmy and you are so quiet about?

No. I dont. And you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:55 PM

You ARE very quiet about the Islamist atrocities.
Why is it always and only Israel with you people?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:14 PM

"Why is it always and only Israel with you people?"

That's not hard to figure out.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:54 PM

You ARE very quiet about the Islamist atrocities

Define "Islamist", FKWT.

And we're discussing Israeli atrocities here- take your bigoted Islamaphobia elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:23 PM

Greg, the stated aim of Israel in this particular conflict is to quell the rocket attacks and to destroy the tunnels (I don't believe a word of that, but hey ho}. There is no religious link there. In the broader context there is, but my remark pertained to this particular sorry episode. It is best to avoid saying that "the Jews do this, that or the other". There are Jews who want nothing to do with it and there are Jews who actively oppose it. Best to refer to the actions of the Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:32 PM

I've never quite understood why Baroness Warsi is a Tory. Anyway, she's joined Pantsdown, as well as the ever-vacillating Miliband, in speaking against Israeli actions in Gaza. Hey, yanks! Our politicos here can do that. Risky, but they can do it. Your politicos, almost to a man, dare not utter a word against Israel. The Murdoch media show and, worse, AIPAC, are looking over their shoulders at all times. Whaddya think, yanks? Is there one amongst you, in the Land Of The Free, who dare breathe AIPAC's name? What are you scared of?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:56 PM

I've never said "the Jews" in any context whatsoever, Steve.

This concerns the Government of Israel, and how it chooses to throw its weight around, aided by billions of dollars in aid from the US with no strings attached whatsoever -- which had there been strings, we wouldn't be experiencing this annihilation of Palestinian children & other civilians.

This is another failure of U.S. foreign policy in the same vein as the children fleeing the carnage in Central America that the U.S. has created by destabilizing the region since Reagan and the "Contras".

Some assholes never learn.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM

"160 children to make attack tunnels, to attack Israeli civilians."
There is no indication of this having happened apart from "Elders of Zion" and "Jewsnews" blogsites.
Do you have any actual evidence that it did?
If it did, of course I am not in favour of it, but it rates pretty small next to the Children, women, elderly and sick who have been deliberately targeted by Israeli troops in the last few weeks - fully supported by you and yours.
Keith has both attempted to deny and support the use of flechettes - describing them as faked, Hamas missiles, legal and non-existent - not necessarily in that order.
He now appears to be back-pedaling rapidly.
You appear to be acknowledging their us - time for a 'singing from the same hymn-sheet' meeting I think.   
Watched a discussion by media people describing the tsunami of condemnation coming from reporters, doctors, aid workers, neutral observers..... all overwhelmingly blaming the Israeli regime for the massacre which has taken place.
They said that Israel was fully aware of the condemnation but just didn't give a fuck - more our less sums up your little bunch of 'humanitarians'
Keep goose-stepping your way into the history books lads.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:02 AM

Keith has both attempted to deny and support the use of flechettes - describing them as faked, Hamas missiles, legal and non-existent - not necessarily in that order.
He now appears to be back-pedaling rapidly.

Completely made up false accusations.
Why do you do that?
I denied nothing, but pointed out that no reliable source has reported it.
I supported nothing, but explained the legality.
Your link spoke of "nail shrapnel" which I pointed out is only found in Hamas made missiles.

You can not attack anything I say, so you have to make shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:18 AM

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, Jack the Sailor spoke of attempts to prevent Israeli aggression and poo bad immediately pointed out if you don't support Israeli aggression you are anti semitic.

Such is the flavour of threads when fascist sympathisers are let loose.

It went downhill from there...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:28 AM

"I denied nothing, but pointed out that no reliable source has reported it."
Which is as good as denying it - it's use was reported worldwide and it was a known fact from Israeli sources that it was an Israeli weapon
"I supported nothing, but explained the legality."
Describing it as coming from Hamas is supporting Israel as having used it.
You are a lying atrocity-apologist turd
You have just claimed you don't lump all Muslims together - you ahev described "all male Muslim Pakistanis" as implanted pervets
Stop fouling up this forum with your lies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:59 AM

it's use was reported worldwide

No. Some Palestinian group's accusation was widely reported, but then the story died.

and it was a known fact from Israeli sources that it was an Israeli weapon
Ye. All modern armies have it.

Describing it as coming from Hamas is supporting Israel as having used it.
I described "nail shrapnel" as only to be found in Hamas missiles, which is true.

You have just claimed you don't lump all Muslims together - you ahev described "all male Muslim Pakistanis" as implanted pervets

I first made clear that it was nothing to do with them being Muslims.
I then reported that people from that culture blamed the culture, giving examples.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 07:25 AM

Amnesty.
"CUBE-SHAPED SHRAPNEL
Amnesty International delegates in Gaza also found evidence of the use of a new type of missile, seemingly launched from unmanned drones, which explodes large numbers of tiny sharp-edged metal cubes, each between 2 and 4 mm square in size. This purpose-made shrapnel can penetrate even thick metal doors and many were seen by Amnesty International's delegates embedded deep in concrete walls. They appear designed to cause maximum injury and, in some respects, seem to be a more sophisticated version of the ball-bearings or nails and bolts which armed groups often pack into crude rockets and suicide bombs. The signature of these new missiles, in addition to the deadly tiny metal cubes, is a small and deep hole in the ground (about 10 cm or less in diameter and up to several metres in depth) and a small quantity of shrapnel made of very thin metal, seemingly from the missile's casing.

An X-ray of a young man who had been injured in one of these missile attacks, which killed a dozen youths and injured several others, showed the tiny metal pellets still embedded in his thigh.

A 13-year-old girl who was asleep in her bed; three primary school-age boys who were carrying sugar canes; two young women on their way to a shelter in search of safety; a 13-year-old boy on his bicycle; eight secondary school students who were waiting for the school bus to take them home; an entire family sitting in the courtyard of their home, and many others were all killed in attacks with these "
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/012/2009/en/5be86fc2-994e-4eeb-a6e8-3ddf68c28b31/mde150122009en.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:44 AM

Jimmy boy,


"160 children to make attack tunnels, to attack Israeli civilians."
There is no indication of this having happened apart from "Elders of Zion" and "Jewsnews" blogsites.
Do you have any actual evidence that it did?


"
thescroll_header
THE SCROLL
Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Tunnels
Militant group used child labor to construct underground network in Gaza
By Myer Freimann|July 25, 2014 10:15 AM|Comments: 0
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An Israeli soldier is seen at the entrance of a tunnel dug by Palestinians beneath the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel on October 13, 2013. ( DAVID BUIMOVITCH/AFP/Getty Images)
As the death toll of Operation Protective Edge rises, the deaths of children are firmly in the spotlight—and rightly so. It pains all reasonable people to hear of children dying as the consequence of war. Hamas and its supporters display gruesome pictures of dead and wounded children in order to gain sympathy for their portrait of Israel as the villain intent on killing Palestinians. In response, Israel cites the need to stop Hamas from firing thousands of rockets at its own children, who are being forced to live in bomb shelters, as well as the need to eliminate the tunnels that Hamas dug into Israel in order to carry out terror attacks against Israelis. One tunnel opening was found underneath an Israeli kindergarten.

But who built those tunnels? The answer is Hamas, of course—using some of the same children who are now trapped under fire in Gaza.

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. It reported that tunnel construction in Gaza has resulted in a large number of child deaths.

"At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials"

The author, Nicolas Pelham, explains that Hamas uses child laborers to build their terror tunnels because, "much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies".

Human rights groups operating in Gaza raised concerns about child labor in the tunnels as far back as 2008. Hamas responded by saying it was "considering curbs." Following Operation Cast Lead in 2009 Hamas softened its position and the Interior Ministry established the Tunnel Affairs Commission (TAC) which, "In response to public concern at a rising toll of tunnel casualties, particularly of child workers…issued guidelines intended to ensure safe working conditions." No mention is made in the report of the conditions that would result for both Palestinian and Israeli children from building tunnels that would be used to launch terror attacks.

Nor does it seem that Hamas paid much subsequent attention to ensuring the safety of the child workers that it used to build the tunnels that would wind up endangering the lives of many in Gaza. On a tour of the tunnels in 2011, Pelham noted that, "nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels.""

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels


http://palestine-studies.org/jps/fulltext/42605

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:49 AM

Thus, the Journal of Palestine Studies (edited by President Obama's pro-Palestinian friend Rashid Khalidi) reported in 2012 that Hamas uses children to help dig tunnels into Israel. The finding appears in a paper called Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon: The Unintended Dynamics of Israel's Siege.

The author of the paper, Nicolas Pelham accompanied a police patrol in Gaza during December 2011. He reported that "nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies."

He also found that "at least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials." And, as noted, this was as of the end of 2011. How many more Palestinian children have died digging tunnels for Hamas since then?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:50 AM

"Not only are Hamas misappropriating much of the humanitarian aid supplied to Gaza—800,000 tons of cement were used to construct the terror tunnels into Israel—they are also directly exploiting and endangering Gaza's youth in their construction and operation."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:39 PM

I've never said "the Jews" in any context whatsoever, Steve.

I know! I wasn't having a pop at you. I was making the point that, in this particular phase of the conflict, religion hasn't really reared its ugly head.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:13 PM

...religion hasn't really reared its ugly head.

But Steve, there's that pesky "God gave thiis land to me" business, isn't there? Israel claims that it has a divine right to the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:42 PM

I'm not denying it, Greg. Just sayin' that I haven't heard God invoked much in this particular conflict. I would imagine that God's quite relieved about that. ;-) Let's move on!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:54 PM

I would imagine that God's quite relieved about that

You bet!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:38 AM

Me? Naaahhh! Lost interest in the whole stupid business years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:13 AM

""I denied nothing, but pointed out that no reliable source has reported it."
Which is as good as denying it" - Christmas

Ehmmm Christmas no it is not as good as denying it and you damn well know that - it means exactly what it says - that the source is questionable, it is unsubstantiated and as such cannot be accepted at face value.

"- it's use was reported worldwide and it was a known fact from Israeli sources that it was an Israeli weapon" - Christmas

Oh good, then perhaps you could supply references to back-up those claims (You won't of course, because they don't exist - you just make shit up). Just because something is reported does not necessarily mean that it is true or even factual (Doubt that Christmas? Then tell us how true and factually accurate all the "Reports" were of the hundreds of refugees supposedly killed in Jenin)

For those who don't know the story, or those who wish to conveniently forget it:

"The Battle of Jenin took place in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank in April 1–11, 2002. Israel Defense Forces (IDF) entered the camp, and other areas under the administration of the Palestinian Authority, during the Second Intifada, as part of Operation Defensive Shield. The Jenin camp was targeted after Israel alleged that it had "served as a launch site for numerous terrorist attacks against both Israeli civilians and Israeli towns and villages in the area."

On April 7, senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat suggested to CNN that some 500 Palestinians had been killed in the camp. Five days later, when the fighting stopped, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman told UPI that the number was in the thousands, hinting, along with other Palestinian figures, that Israel had snatched bodies, buried Palestinians in mass graves and under the rubble of ruined buildings, and otherwise conducted on a scale compatible with genocide."

Stories of hundreds of civilians being killed in their homes as they were demolished spread throughout international media. Subsequent investigations found no evidence to substantiate claims of a massacre, and official totals from Palestinian and Israeli sources confirmed between 52 and 54 Palestinians, mostly gunmen, and 23 IDF soldiers as having been killed in the fighting"

Take what the Palestinian Authority and Hamas tells you with a truckload of salt. Between 640 and 960 Hamas rockets fall short and land inside Gaza and they kill or injure nobody? Yeah "And the Band played believe it if you can".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:43 AM

"Ehmmm Christmas no it is not as good as denying it and you damn well know that "
Ehmmmm Buzz Lightyear - yes it damn well is.
Fragments corresponding exactly with those emitted from flechette weapons were photographed following claims of their having been fired
Doctors reported a woman had been treated for injuries and had removed one of these fragments
Of course, these could have been planted by Hamas who happened to be on hand and carry around such fragments in their pockets just in case - after all, it is a well known fact that these weapons are regularly used by Hamas and is a standard piece of their equipmentNOT
An Israeli humanitarian group has reported the use of flechette weapons and white phosphorus on civilians in the past - Israel has never denied such reports and they have not made such a denial here.
ISRAEL HAS, TO DATE, NEVER DENIED THE CLAIMS THEY THEY HAVE USED FLECHETTE WEAPONS - THAT IS A ONE-MAN ENTERPRISE ON KEITH'S PART
So what have we got - the use of a weapon, reported world-wide, not denied by those accused of having used it, first defended by Keith as being "legal" (though, according to the rule-book. its use is confined to military targets and is illegal when used randomly against non-combatants) then denied - by someone who has appointed himself unofficial spokesman for a regime which has just slaughtered approaching 2000 impoverished human beings (overwhelmingly civilians, largely made up of women, children elderly and infirm), destroying their homes, hospitals, schools, public buildings..... and leaving them with the future prospect of squatting on cities which resemble the ruins of Agidir following the earthquake.   
Personally - what I would take "with a pinch of salt" is the word of someone who claims to have taught children, but who sets himself up as self-appointed defender of such a bunch of murderous monsters - lets face it - who would trust their kids anywhere near such a disturbed headbanger?   
He is now joined by a toy soldier who has to have the key in his back wound up before he marches off to the local to tell his mates stories of his military exploits.
Who is a girl to believe, surrounded by all this expertise??
"For those who don't know the story"
THE FACTS OF THE BATTLE OF JENIN
What on earth has a weapon that is acknowledged as being in the arsenal of the Israeli army and has been used by them in the past and has not been denied as having been used here, got to do with Jenin - a murderous battle that was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of civilians, and was overturned as being described as a massacre on appeal, largely due to the intervention of the U.S. who has used its U.N. veto to offset criticism of Israel on over 100 occasions?
Jim Carroll
I'm sure you'll find enough typos in there to divert the attention from what has just been said - best get the spellcheck going now, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM

The link to the reports of the use of flechette weapons and white phosphorus from Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has been provided at least twice in these discussions and part of is was cut' and pasted to save people following the link
If you are going to participate in these discussions, please have the courtesy of getting someone to read what has been written beforehand - it really does help!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:24 AM

All modern armies have flechette munitions.
There is one highly dubious claim of one person in gaza being wounded by one, so even if it was true(!) it is still only one single wounding.

Greg,
But Steve, there's that pesky "God gave thiis land to me" business, isn't there? Israel claims that it has a divine right to the territory.
No it does not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:52 AM

"All modern armies have flechette munitions."
So ****** what - they are a barbaric invention and illegal when indiscriminately used in civilian area
You have supported their use as "legal"
You have denied their use, even though Israel haven't
Now you are defending them again because "everybody's got one".
You really need to decide which room in the asylum you wish to claim as your own.
Jeeze - talk about "stop digging"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:28 AM

what - they are a barbaric invention and illegal when indiscriminately used in civilian area

All weapons are silly!

You have supported their use as "legal"

No, I have explained the fact of their legality.

You have denied their use, even though Israel haven't

No. I just said that no convincing evidence for their use here has emerged, and it hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:02 AM

Since when was bombing that contravenes UN resolutions legal in any sense of the word?

"Legal" when used internationally as a word is an indicator of various conventions, and delegated to UN to comment on a situation. Conflict as opposed to war, and this is conflict, means it has no legal right through The UN. The USA of course feel that hosting The UN is enough, responsible participation seems to be optional.

Or at least till now. Obama and Kerry seem to be stirring and hearing the grinding of the beans.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:09 AM

"All weapons are silly!"
Then why are you supporting their use on behalf of somebody who hasn't bothered its arse to do so for itself?
"No, I have explained the fact of their legality."
Pompous pratt
"No. I just said that no convincing evidence for their use here has emerged, and it hasn't."
Used before, standard issue - not denied - YES IT HAS and you are one sick cookie for questioning its use when the terrorist state accused of using it has not done so themselves
Sicko-phant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:36 AM

"Ehmmm Christmas no it is not as good as denying it and you damn well know that " - Teribus

"Ehmmmm Buzz Lightyear - yes it damn well is." - Christmas

Only to you Christmas - only to you.


Fragments corresponding exactly with those emitted from flechette weapons were photographed following claims of their having been fired"

Ah you mean these Christmas:

Flechettes fired in Gaza but who knows when?

Note how pristine they are Christmas. References and photos showing used flechettes 2001, 2002, 2008 and in 2009 - the photo showing them stuck in the wall in 2009 show what they look like after they have been fired.

Story brought to the world by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights - Psst Christmas if any front organisation for Hamas told me that the Moon wasn't made of green cheese I'd want that checked. Their reputation as lying bastards is unparalleled.

"Of course, these could have been planted by Hamas who happened to be on hand and carry around such fragments in their pockets just in case"

Wouldn't put it past them, if they thought that it would serve their purposes.

"An Israeli humanitarian group has reported the use of flechette weapons and white phosphorus on civilians in the past"

AND? Your point is?

"So what have we got - the use of a weapon, reported world-wide, not denied by those accused of having used it"

So what do you actually have? Uncorroborated evidence of the use of this weapon, based on use on previous occasions and lack of denial of use on those previous occasions. That is what you have got.

"The munitions are not prohibited under international humanitarian law"

The Apache Helicopters in Afghanistan used these munitions to great effect against the Taliban in the "Green Zone" of Helmand.

"a regime which has just slaughtered approaching 2000 impoverished human beings (overwhelmingly civilians, largely made up of women, children elderly and infirm), destroying their homes, hospitals, schools, public buildings..... and leaving them with the future prospect of squatting on cities which resemble the ruins of Agidir following the earthquake."

Awwww jayzus when it comes to emotive claptrap Christmas you are in a class of your own. I have heard civilian casualty claims by Hamas apologists in the past that proved to be total bollocks - I will wait and see. By the way do all these Palestinian refugees segregate themselves in accordance with the tenets of their religion whilst attempting to shelter from this IDF/Hamas onslaught? Do they split up into women and children in one place and men in another? - If they did that (plus seemingly unerring pure bad luck) would explain the preponderance of fatalities falling amongst young males aged 17-29 wouldn't it Christmas?

"For those who don't know the story"
THE FACTS OF THE BATTLE OF JENIN
What on earth has a weapon that is acknowledged as being in the arsenal of the Israeli army and has been used by them in the past and has not been denied as having been used here, got to do with Jenin - a murderous battle that was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of civilians

What has it got to do with it Christmas?? What has it got to do with it?? How about it proving that they have a well documented track record of being lying bastards when it comes to making claims relating to what the other side did? What about it having to do with them having a track record of being lying bastards when it comes to reporting "civilian" casualties?

So Jenin was "a murderous battle that was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of civilians" was it?

1: "The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55 (27 of whome were combatants)."

2: " Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre,"

3: "Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."

4: "A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"

Mind you he would probably have then been subsequently sacked by the Beeb for reporting that.

5: "A reporter for the Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre."

So then Christmas imagine that the UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the BBC and the Observer all say quite clearly no massacre yet you Christmas sat on your boney arse on the west coast of Ireland know better than all those who were there? Ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:43 AM

I see that there is a lengthy discussion here regarding Israel's alleged use of flechettes during its' conflict with the Palestinians. I think that this discussion naturally leads to the following question for BDS supporters: If you support the BDS movement on the grounds that Israel is using excessive military force against Palestinians, and assuming that you are not applying moral double standards, how do you explain that you are not boycotting the USA for the following reasons:
-Dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese cities in WW2, killing 100,000's of civilians.
-Occupying Iraq for nearly a decade and killing 100,000's of civilians.
-Nowadays, using killer drones for extra-judicial executions in Pakistan, with 100's of civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:52 AM

"How about it proving that they have a well documented track record of being lying bastards when it comes to making claims relating to what the other side did? "
You mean wartime propaganda that no other country ever indulges in?
Give us a break
It is impossible to estimate how many died at Jenin - the first thing the Israelis did was to ship out as many bodies as they could so the actual death- count could not be established.
It was eventually stopped when the U.N, ordered them to desist.
The actions of an honest broker with nothing to hide.
The Israelis behaved in similar fashion following the Sabra/Shatila massacre.
Having provided transport and weapons for the Falangists and opening the gates to the compounds so they could commence their work, they provided illumination so the rape and butchery could continue over three days and nights.
They were eye-witnesses to the massacre - soldiers and medical staff testified to that fact, notably an American Jewish nurse.
When the butchery was over, the Army provided bulldozers and manpower to bury the dead before they could be counted, eventually erecting a sports stadium over the mass graves.
They then provided transport for those they had got to do the dirty work, allowing them to escape conviction.
Following Jenin, the Israelis were accused by the U.N.of war crimes - as far as I know, no charges were ever brought.
If wartime propaganda makes those who indulge (every nation that has ever gone to war), what do you reckon that sort of butchery makes Israel my little Termite
"Time to go to sleep now, Little man, you've had a busy day"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:50 AM

""How about it proving that they have a well documented track record of being lying bastards when it comes to making claims relating to what the other side did? " - Teribus

You mean wartime propaganda that no other country ever indulges in?" - Christmas

Only thing is Christmas is that you believe that propaganda to be 100% truth even when you know that it is propaganda.

The 72-hour ceasefire is about to draw to an end in Gaza - a ceasefire that the Israeli Government was quite happy to extend but Hamas was insistent that it did not. Already in the last two hours of the "ceasefire" two rockets have already been fired into Israel - If that assault continues then the IDF has every justification in going back in and every single casualty and fatality that occurs from this point forward is down to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

"Only thing is Christmas is that you believe that propaganda to be 100% truth even when you know that it is propaganda."
The only thing is that denying a thing to be propaganda doesn't make it so my little soldier - didn't they teach that in T.A. training?
"a ceasefire that the Israeli Government was quite happy to extend but Hamas was insistent that it did not."
Unless Israel agrees to the immediate removal of the blockade, the removal of the Berlin walls and a discontinuation of the humiliation and suffering it has imposed on Gazans, those who have been slaughtered by srael will have died for nothing.
Let Israel agree to the U.N. taking charge of the heap of rubble it has reduced Gaza to and return to the negotiating table under their supervision and a cease-fire will be more than just the surrender Israel and its hangers-on are looking for - anything less would be back to square one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:39 AM

Missed a bit
"You mean wartime propaganda that no other country ever indulges inw
PROPAGANDA
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:23 AM

"Unless Israel agrees to the immediate removal of the blockade, the removal of the Berlin walls and a discontinuation of the humiliation and suffering it has imposed on Gazans, those who have been slaughtered by Israel will have died for nothing."

Pssst Christmas all those Palestinians who have died HAVE died for nothing - that is precisely what Hamas has delivered and it is not going to deliver anything else. As long as they persist in their jihad and in their charter they offer no hope only death. If that is what the people of Gaza want then so be it - their choice, Israel and its population are not just going to roll over and die, they quite rightly will fight for their independence and their right to live a life free from attack and free from the threat of attack and as that seems to mean killing those who would mount and support such attacks then that will be what happens.

"Let Israel agree to the U.N. taking charge of the heap of rubble it has reduced Gaza to and return to the negotiating table"

The UN would not take Gaza on for all the tea in China Christmas, they are not that F**kin Stupid - you on the other hand are. By the way what would the UN take Gaza on with? I believe that the Israeli's are only too willing to return to the negotiating table, it is Hamas that are the ones who seem reluctant.

On the subject of this negotiating table could you give us an inkling as to what Hamas would be prepared to negotiate with the Israelis? Timings and ports of embarkation possibly, or perhaps method and means of extermination? One thing for certain Hamas will never negotiate anything remotely to do with a Two State Solution.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:49 AM

They were eye-witnesses to the massacre - soldiers and medical staff testified to that fact, notably an American Jewish nurse.

Notably NOT an American Jewish nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:18 AM

"It is impossible to estimate how many died at Jenin - the first thing the Israelis did was to ship out as many bodies as they could so the actual death- count could not be established."

Really? Any proof to substantiate that Christmas - or is this just some more of your made up shit, that only you are aware of - the thing that sort of pisses all over your claim is the following:

1: "The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They {The Palestinians} had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55 (27 of whom were combatants)."

The claim picked out in bold in the above passage was bollocks because:

3: "Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. WITHIN FIVE WEEKS ALL BUT ONE OF THE RESIDENTS WAS ACCOUNTED FOR."

Now then Christmas if all but one of the residents were accounted for by UNRWA who were all these hundreds of civilians that the IDF was supposed to have killed and shipped out to some unknown location? Or were the Palestinians lying? I somehow think given their track record that it was the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:18 AM

"Notably NOT an American Jewish nurse."
Piss off Keith - you have read her testimony and that of the other nurse.
If they were not eyewitnesses they were, and still are liars
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 11:03 AM

I have read her testimony and that of the doctor who was with her in the camp.
Neither were eye witness to the massacre.
It was over when they emerged from the hospital and from the hospital nothing of it was seen.

You know this Jim because we have been over it all before.
You knowingly lied to boost your case.

What does that say about your case Jim?
What does it say about you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:33 PM

"Neither were eye witness to the massacre."
That is your interpretation not theirs and It is not the interpretation of the Israelis - once again you are taking it upon yourself to invent arguments on their behalf
Up to the point she and her friend came out in the open with her accusations about the role the Israelis played in the massacre she was one of your claimed supporters, then, just like Christine Kineally in your Irish Famine arguments, you dropped her like a wet turd.
We have, indeed, been through this before - you were shown to be dishonestly making things up then and you are still doing so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

She said nothing that contradicted the Israeli version of events, because she saw nothing that did.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:19 PM

Up to the point she and her friend came out in the open with her accusations about the role the Israelis played in the massacre she was one of your claimed supporters,

No.
You introduced them both to the discussion.
I produced what she actually said.
If I am wrong, produce one thing from her account.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:38 PM

"because she saw nothing that did."
For Christ's sake Keith, Both Ellen seigal and Dr Ang Swee Chai were eye witnesses, Doctor Ang has spent a good deal of her life since lecturing on the horrors she witnesses and the prole that srael played in the massacre.
You came up with some shite about "examining maps and finding Seigel could not have seen what she claimed to have seen.
Her first appearance in the public eye was through a letter she had written to an Israeli soldier who she made visual contact with throughout the massacre - she from the hospital roof where the nurses took their breaks, he from a watchtower overlooking the camp and witnessing what was going on.
What she couldn't see, she gathered from survivors brought into the hospital.
She later gave evidence of seeing the bulldozers with Hebrew writing on the side being used to dig the mass graves.
You have has all the evidence before I'm ******* if I have any intention of diggig it up again.
If you are so keen, why not link up her statement and prove me wrong?
In the meantime - chew on this - sorry it's so long for your limited intelligence
Jim Carroll

We look at one of the most shocking incidents in the career of the late former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Up to 2,000 Palestinians died on Sept. 16-17, 1982, when the Israeli military allowed a Christian militia to attack the camp. Then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon was forced to resign after a special Israeli investigative panel declared him to be "personally responsible" for the massacre. We air a description of the killings by Ellen Siegel, a Jewish-American nurse who was working at Gaza Hospital at the Sabra camp at the time of the attacks, and speak with Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies at Columbia University, and Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist, author and Institute Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Avi Shlaim, go back to 1982 and what happened in Lebanon. First, where were you?

AVI SHLAIM: In 1982, Ariel Sharon was defense minister in Menachem Begin's government, and he was the architect of the invasion of Lebanon. And it was a war of deception because Sharon tricked his Cabinet colleagues into launching this operation by pretending the aims were very limited, whereas in fact he had a big plan to completely change the bare geopolitics of the region, to create a new order in Lebanon but by helping Israel's Maronite Christian allies to come to power in Lebanon and then sign a peace treaty with Israel, then to expel the Syrian forces from Lebanon and to replace Syrian with Israeli hegemony in the Levant.

This war of deception ended in tears. It didn't achieve any of its grandiose geopolitical objectives, and it ended also with the massacre in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. There was an Israeli—there was an Israeli commission of inquiry which found Defense Minister Sharon as responsible for failing to prevent the massacre of the Palestinian refugees by Israel's Christian allies, and Sharon was forced to step down—he was fired as minister of defense. And no one could have guessed at that time how a man who was found unfit to serve as minister of defense would bounce back as Israel's prime minister.

But this is all of a piece in Sharon's career as a soldier and as a politician, because, as Professor Khalidi pointed out, Sharon committed his first war crime as a young major in 1953 when he destroyed many houses in the Jordanian village of Qibya, and he was responsible for the massacre of 69 civilians. So that was his first war crime, but it was not to be his last. And the consistent thread in his career as a soldier and as a politician was to use brute force, not just against the regular armies of the Arab states, but also against Palestinian civilians. And the other consistent thread is to shun diplomacy and to rely on brute force to impose Israeli hegemony on the entire region. President George W. Bush famously called Sharon a man of peace. Sharon was nothing of the sort. He was a man of war through and through, and he called his autobiography Warrior, not Diplomat. His approach to diplomacy reversed Clausewitz's dictum; for Sharon, diplomacy was the pursuit of war by other means. For the last 40 years, the Arab-Israeli conflict has been my main research interest, and I can honestly say that I have never come across a single scintilla of evidence to support the notion of Sharon as a man of peace.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go back to 1982, the commission report you referred to, Avi Shlaim, and ask Noam Chomsky about the Kahan Commission and what it is they found, and how it is that Ariel Sharon actually survived politically beyond that.

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the Kahan Commission did condemn Sharon for what they called "indirect responsibility" for Sabra-Shatila massacre. The Kahan Commission, I think, was really a whitewash. It tried to give as soft as possible an interpretation of what was in fact a horrifying massacre, actually one that should resonate with people who are familiar with Jewish history. It was almost a replica of the Kishinev massacre in pre-First World War Russia, one of the worst atrocities in Israeli memory, led to a famous nationalist poem by the main Israeli poet, Chaim Nahman Bialik, "City of Killing." The tsar's army had surrounded this town and allowed the people within it to rampage, killing Jews for three days. They killed 45 people. That was—that's pretty much what happened in Sabra-Shatila: Israeli army surrounded it, sent in the Phalangist forces, who were obviously bent on murder.

AMY GOODMAN: These were the Lebanese Christian forces.

NOAM CHOMSKY: Lebanese Christian terrorist force, allied with Israel. The soldiers watched as they illuminated it. They helped them enter. They watched for several days while they murdered, not 45 people, but somewhere—Israel claims 800, other analyses go up to several thousand. That's the Sabra-Shatila massacre. The idea that Sharon had indirect—the tsar, incidentally, was bitterly condemned internationally for direct responsibility. That's, in fact, one of the events that set off the huge flow of refugees from Eastern Europe, including my father, among others. But—so this was a kind of a replica, except far more brutal and vicious. And Sharon escaped more than a mild censure. It's true that he was removed as defense minister, but it wasn't long before he came back. And that's one of a number of extremely shocking incidents in his career.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to stay with that for a moment, Noam, because I want to turn to Ellen Siegel. She was a Jewish-American nurse who worked at a hospital at the Sabra camp at the time of the Sabra and Shatila massacre in September 1982. We interviewed her in 2001 and played it on the 20th anniversary of the killings. She described some of what she witnessed during the massacre.

ELLEN SIEGEL: The 18th, which was a Saturday morning, it was also the first day of Rosh Hashanah. We were told to come down to the entranceway to the hospital, that the Lebanese army was downstairs. Well, it wasn't the Lebanese army; it was the Phalange. And here were a group of soldiers who looked—who looked quite neat, clean, and they told us that they were going to march us out of the camp. And they took our passports from us, and they started to march us down the main street of the hospital. As we were marching, we saw dead bodies. They started to holler at us, this militia, telling us that we were not Christian, that we came to help people who hated Christians, that we were terrorists. They were talking on walkie-talkies. There was constant communication with someone.
There was a Palestinian who had been working in the hospital, who did not flee when the rest of them did. And he was terrified, and he asked for someone to give him a lab coat. And so we gave him a lab coat. But, of course, he was picked out immediately because he looked very different than these white and blonde and Scandinavian and American and British health workers. And I turned around, I saw him on his knees pleading, and I was told to keep walking. And the next thing I heard was a shot. I never looked back.
As we continued walking, there were new soldiers. There was a whole contingent of other soldiers lining the streets. And these militia people looked quite crazed. They were—looked very dirty, very messy, and looked like they had been on drugs or something. They were just tense, wide-eyed, nervous—extremely nervous. There was a group of Palestinians and Lebanese refugees who they forced to line up against a—they were all just lined during this pathway. And one of the women had an infant in her hands, and she tried to give this infant to one of the doctors. And the Phalange said, "No, you can't—can't take this baby." And they were watching us, and they were giving us the V sign. It was hard to tell who was more uptight about what was going to happen to who.
As we continued down the street, we—there was an area that had been part of the camp. And suddenly, there were—there was bulldozers with an Israeli—with a Hebrew letter on it, and it was going back and forth, back and forth. That, I'm sure, turned out to be the mass grave. We were—we kept on walking. Walkie-talkies. We reached the end of the camp, and we turned a corner. This was outside of the camp. They lined us up against a bullet-ridden wall, and they had their rifles ready. And we really thought this is—I mean, it was a firing squad. Suddenly, an Israeli soldier comes running down the street and halts it. I suppose the idea of gunning down foreign health workers was something that was not very appealing to the Israelis. But the fact that they could see this and stop it shows that there was—there was some communication.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Ellen Siegel, a Jewish American nurse who was working at Gaza Hospital in the Sabra camp at the time of the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982. I asked her what should happen to Ariel Sharon.

ELLEN SIEGEL: I think what should happen to him is what has happened in our history, in Jewish history. Ever since I was a child, I have learned that what happened during the Holocaust happened because people were silent, people did not speak up. People allowed bad things to happen to other people and did not do anything about it. We should be the last people on Earth that should allow that to happen. Simon Wiesenthal continues and the Jewish agencies continue to look for Nazi war criminals, and indeed they should, and bring them to justice. Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. And the legal aspects of this, I understand, as a non-legal person, put him in that category. He allowed innocent people to be murdered. He did nothing to protect it. He knew that they were the sworn enemy of the Palestinians. And so, he should be tried.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Ellen Siegel, the nurse who worked in the Sabra camp at the time of the massacre in 1982. Professor Rashid Khalidi, also with us, your relative headed that hospital called Gaza Hospital?

RASHID KHALIDI: Correct.

AMY GOODMAN: That Ellen Siegel worked in.

RASHID KHALIDI: My cousin Aziza was the director of Gaza Hospital at the time.

AMY GOODMAN: And you were in Lebanon. He was there.

RASHID KHALIDI: I was in Beirut at the time.

AMY GOODMAN: Describe the reaction afterwards, how—what he was doing at that time.

RASHID KHALIDI: What my cousin, Aziza, what she was doing at the time?

AMY GOODMAN: What she was doing.

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, she was trying to stay alive. First of all, they were treating patients, as victims of the massacre came in. And then, as Ellen describes, they were—

AMY GOODMAN: Only critically injured patients there at the time, as they were trying to clear out.

RASHID KHALIDI: Precisely, precisely. And most people realized that a massacre was going on, and most of the Palestinians fled. My cousin was completely traumatized, obviously, by it, as, for that matter, were my children and thousands and thousands of others, Lebanese and Palestinian children, who were living in Beirut during the 10-week siege of the city, bombardment and siege of the city.

One of the things that nobody has talked about is the new documents that have been revealed in the Israel State Archives, which I think pin direct responsibility for much more of what happened in Sabra and Shatila on not only Ariel Sharon and the Israeli government, but reveal American responsibility for what happened. The New York Times, on the 30th anniversary of the massacre in September of 2012, published an op-ed with links to some of these documents—by a student of mine, actually—which shows that in fact Sharon's responsibility was far greater than indirect, shows that the Israeli government knew perfectly well what was going on, that the Israelis stonewalled to prevent the massacre being stopped. American diplomats were sent to tell the Israelis on the 16th of September, in the middle of the massacre, "You must withdraw your forces from Beirut," and one can read in these documents, which The New York Times has put a link to on their website, exactly how Sharon basically fended that off so that the killing could continue for another day.

AMY GOODMAN: What was Israel's goal in Lebanon? The pretext was an assassination attempt on Israel's ambassador in London and the shelling of northern Israel from Lebanon.

RASHID KHALIDI: Right. Well, the shelling had been stopped for a year. Ambassador Philip Habib, since 1981, had stopped the cross-border exchanges, so that pretext was removed. And Sharon was dying for a pretext. We have now the text of his meeting with Secretary of State Haig in May, and he lays out his objectives. He says, "We're going to turn Lebanon into a satellite state," much as Avi and Noam Chomsky said. "We are going to eliminate Syrian influence, and we're going to destroy the PLO." Those were his objectives. And he, exactly as Professor Shlaim said, sold this to the Israeli Cabinet by—and to the Americans, by saying it would be a much more limited operation. In fact, he intended to reach Beirut, and he intended to do all of these quite ambitious things to change the entire map.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. The former Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, has died. He died on Saturday after eight years in a coma. He was 85 years old. Our guests are Professor Avi Shlaim at Oxford University, where he is a professor emeritus there of international relations; Noam Chomsky, the world-renowned linguist, political dissident, author; and Rashid Khalidi, Arab studies professor at Columbia University, the Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies.

You were just talking about The New York Times and how they covered what happened at Sabra and Shatila, and the direct responsibility that Ariel Sharon—linking to documents of Sharon's responsibility and U.S. responsibility. Elaborate further on that and then how it's—his life is being described today in the same pages.

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, I describe it as the apotheosis of Ariel Sharon. He's being turned from a war criminal and a mass murderer, which he was, into a god, in the American—in much of the American media. The New York Times has played an enormous role in this. Instead of, for example, running their own op-ed, which was published a little over a year ago, which lays out in damning detail, from documents in the Israel State Archives, Israeli and American responsibility, notably Sharon's responsibility, for this massacre, they republished on their—in their online edition yesterday an op-ed by Sharon in which he justifies the war. It has been a degrading spectacle to watch the American and the Israeli media turn this man into, as Avi said, a man of peace, something that he could never possibly have been described as.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:19 PM

Her first appearance in the public eye was through a letter she had written to an Israeli soldier who she made visual contact with throughout the massacre

No. She met him outside the camp on the same morning the journalist Fisk arrived. A shy young soldier who offered to share honey cake his mother had sent.-

she from the hospital roof where the nurses took their breaks,
She saw nothing of it and knew nothing.
She watched the flares and commented on the silence. No shots or cries.

he from a watchtower overlooking the camp and witnessing what was going on.

The "camp" is buildings with a warren of streets in between. From outside the streets can not be seen.

What she couldn't see, she gathered from survivors brought into the hospital.
She does not recall being told about any massacre.

She later gave evidence of seeing the bulldozers with Hebrew writing on the side being used to dig the mass graves.

No. She does not say the bulldozer was burying anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

If that assault continues then the IDF has every justification in going back in and every single casualty and fatality that occurs from this point forward is down to Hamas.

Clasp your hands over your ears and eyes as much as you like, but here's a basic home truth: if you fire a rocket or a gun or a bomb or a shell, and it kills someone, it's you who did the killing. No-one else. You had a choice of firing that weapon or not firing it. Do read that last little sentence again, please. This business of Israelis killing almost two thousand civilians and blaming every death on someone else who did not do the killing is no more than a sign of your impending insanity. You might as well accuse the Japanese of killing all those people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. You might as well blame every female rape victim in a miniskirt for contributory negligence. Clear your head and get it clear who actually does the killing. The bloke who fires the weapon, every time. He always had the choice of not firing it. Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:41 PM

Arguable, Steve -- when he is responding in kind to someone who has already fired first, and is attempting to pre-empt and prevent his doing so again; particularly when it is 'the other side' who has declared the war-footing and prevented any meaningful negotiations from taking place, & endeavoured to inhibit the response by deliberate placement of civilian 'shields' against attack. You reduce a complex situation to absurdity by such grotesque over-simplifications.

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