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BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Steve Shaw 17 Aug 14 - 06:57 PM
Greg F. 17 Aug 14 - 09:45 PM
GUEST 18 Aug 14 - 01:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 14 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,ivor 18 Aug 14 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Ivor 18 Aug 14 - 10:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,ivor 18 Aug 14 - 04:18 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 14 - 07:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 14 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,ivor 19 Aug 14 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Ivor 19 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 14 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,ivor 19 Aug 14 - 12:17 PM
Musket 19 Aug 14 - 12:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 14 - 03:03 PM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 03:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 03:44 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 14 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Ivor 20 Aug 14 - 12:14 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Aug 14 - 01:10 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 14 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 14 - 08:10 AM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 14 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 14 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 14 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Ivor 20 Aug 14 - 11:38 AM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 14 - 11:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 14 - 11:59 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 06:57 PM

Ah, so you are of the "Hamas is automatically responsible for killing everyone who has ever been killed since Adam was a lad" school of thought, eh? Did Hamas kill JR, do you suppose?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:45 PM

Apparently, duplication is necessary and appropriate:

==============

Mark Levine:Author; Professor, Middle Eastern History, UC Irvine & Center for MES, Lund University

A Dear Jon (Voight) Letter About Gaza and the History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Posted: 08/15/2014 10:36 pm EDT Updated: 08/15/2014 10:59 pm EDT

Dear Jon Voight,

We write to you as admirers of your work for many years. We are also professors of modern Middle Eastern studies, specializing on the history and contemporary realities of Israel, Zionism and Palestine, and between the two of us, we have written and edited over half a dozen books on the country and the two peoples who are destined -- or doomed, depending on your point of view -- to share it.

We have read your open letter to Javier Bardem, Penelope Cruz and other critics of the latest Israeli bombing and invasion of Gaza, in response to their own open letter condemning Israeli actions during the war. Your passion for defending Israel is clearly as great as your passion for acting. However, behind your passion is a view of Israel's history and current actions that are utterly at odds with the actual history and present-day realities in the country. They are simply dead-wrong, and your belief in them has led you to adopt views that will ultimately -- and at this rate, sooner rather than later -- doom, not defend, Israel. Moreover, while you have laudably said that they or other actors should not face industry sanctions for standing up to Israel, we believe that the intensity of your criticism, coupled with the inaccuracy of the arguments, not only exacerbates the rewriting of the conflict's history in the mainstream media but contributes both to a toxic atmosphere of hatred against Palestinians and to a purported blacklist against them.

Let us begin with your opening argument:

They are obviously ignorant of the whole story of Israel's birth, when in 1948 the Jewish people were offered by the UN a portion of the land originally set aside for them in 1921, and the Arab Palestinians were offered the other half. The Arabs rejected the offer, and the Jews accepted, only to be attacked by five surrounding Arab countries committed to driving them into the sea. But the Israelis won. The Arabs tried it again in 1967, and again in 1973, launching a sneak attack on the holiest Jewish holiday. Each time the Jews prevailed but not without great loss of life. And when Israel was not fighting a major war, it was defending itself against terrorist campaigns.

This is the traditional narrative of Israel's birth, part of what Israeli hisitorian Simha Flapan described as the "myths" surrounding Israel in his famous 1987 book The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities. However, this is a distortion of the actual history, which saw Zionism arrive on the soil of a Palestine that was already in the midst of its own modernization, against which what Israeli sociologist Gershon Shafir describes as a "militant [Zionist] nationalist movement" developed, deploying the "conquest of labor" and then the "conquest of land" to increasingly powerful effect once the British conquered Palestine in 1917.

After three decades of British rule that was legally committed -- through the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate -- to facilitate the creation of a Jewish "national home" at the expense of fostering Palestinian Arab nationalism, outright civil war became inevitable. When war finally came, the Zionist leadership "accepted" the terms of the 1947 Partition Plan. In reality, they had little intention of actually fulfilling them, and over the next year, through intercommunal conflict and then all-out war, three quarters of a million Palestinians were permanently forced from their homes, and over 500 villages were destroyed.

As for your claims that Israel was attacked by surrounding countries determined to throw it into the sea, this too is belied by the historical record. As Oxford University professors Avi Shlaim and Eugene Rogan demonstrated in their book The War for Palestine, Rewriting the History of 1948, minimal and badly trained and equipped forces were sent; their main goals were to prevent themselves from looking like collaborators and their rival Mufti of Jerusalem from establishing a state, and, where possible, to take whatever territory they could for themselves. Most important here, Jordan -- the one neighbor with an effective, British-run army -- had reached a modus vivendi with the Zionist/Israeli leadership in which it would take over the West Bank and leave Israel the rest of the country. The only exception was Jerusalem, about which the two sides couldn't agree and which therefore became the scene of the worst fighting of the war.

Let's leave aside the fact that you don't mention the 1956 tripartite invasion of Egypt by Israel, France and the UK, which not even Israelis argue was a defensive war. Similar to your description of 1948, your description of 1967 as the "Arab trying again" to destroy Israel is historically inaccurate. There were certainly many threats emanating from Arab capitals in the late spring of 1967, but ultimately it was Israel, not the Arab states, that clearly launched a "sneak attack." The CIA even predicted that Israel could wipe out the combined forces of the surrounding states in roughly five days, which is exactly what happened.

While presented to the world as a war of survival, 1967 was in fact a war of conquest and expansion. How do we know this? Quite simply because that's just what Israel did: It conquered and occupied the West Bank, Gaza, Sinai and the Golan Heights and proceeded to settle them intensively, particularly in the biblical heartland of the West Bank.

Here, Mr. Voight, it is absolutely crucial to understand that if Israel were really afraid to turn over the West Bank to Palestinians for security reasons -- that is, if the occupation were in fact about security -- it could have maintained a military occupation to this day without violating international law. But instead it began a settlement enterprise that came to dominate Israeli political life, eventually placing well over half a million settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, in clear contravention of international law, which expressly forbids transferring civilians from one country into an occupied territory.



Continued Click Here


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:04 AM

The role of the USA has been crucial to the murderous assaults on the Palestinian people by the armed might of Israel.

The USA armed and funded and supported Israel at almost every turn.

The Israeli warplanes that fired rockets and dropped bombs on Gaza were made in the USA and flown by Israeli pilots.

The USA had to admit just a few weeks ago that it was resupplying the Israeli Defence Force [ ie, the child killing army ] with stocks of weaponry which the USA has conveniently stored in Israel.

Israel receives billions of dollars of aid every year from the USA...money spent on military equipment, economic development and the oppression of the Palestinian people who are still being robbed of their land and in the case of Gaza literally blown up in their city.

The arrogance and efficiency of the Israelis ,however, has also led to some enormous problems.

Its high tec child killing armed forces encountered big problems during its onslaught of Gaza with 64 soldiers killed and hundreds wounded by the Palestinian resistance who do not possess a navy, warplanes , artillery, tanks or heavy weaponry of any kind.

More strategically the action of right wing Israeli governments for the past few decades have made a two state solution to the crisis impossible.

Israel has allowed 400000 armed fanatical settlers to seize land and build complexes in the occupied West Bank [ where there were none pre 1967].

Its Palestinian population has been terrorised, imprisoned, attacked, shot at, tortured in many cases,had property seized or destroyed and pauperised.

The Apartheid Wall now cuts off many villages and towns from their neighbours. Roads for settlers and Israeli military only now criss cross the occupied territory while the Palestinians suffer the daily ritual of roadblocks which add hours to their journey to work, school or hospital visits etc.

Palestinian universities and colleges and schools are routinely attacked or closed down which in themselves justifies the academic boycott which is gathering pace across the world.

The two state solution seems dead in the water.

If that is the case the Palestinians in Gaza, Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank can expect more rampant violence from the Israeli state as it , in the words of an Israeli leader ' mows the grass' in Gaza every few years.

Gaza is facing a huge human health catastrophe this coming winter as the combination of shortage of food and clean water , raw sewage everywhere , lack of housing, no power and a polluted cityscape kicks in....where are the 10000 severely wounded going to go and how are they to be treated and care for?

The whole world is still watching and Israel despite its powerful backers and big guns stands revealed as a terrorist state.
Fredom for Palestine!
Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:39 AM

Steve, I do not understand your reply.
Israel can not attack the tunnels and missiles without hurting anyone.
Given that, have they the right to defend themselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:56 AM

It IS my opinion that Hamas is to blame for the violence in Gaza, but we were discussing a nation's right to reply to attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:11 AM

"Steve and Jim, is it your view that Israel has a right to defend itself, provided it does not hurt anyone?"
Israel has every right to defnd herself and is extremely well equipped to do so.
The Palestinians have the same right and are not so equipped.
Israel's behavior is recognised as going far beyond "defence" - it is no more than a revenge attack for the death of four boys - the ratio of that revenge is 50 Palestinians to one murdered Israeli boy - not bad, considering those who carried out those murders have never been uncovered.
You appear to be now suggesting that the 2000 deaths were in order to close the tunnels - not even Israel has claimed this - once again, your enthusiasm has taken you in front of them in claiming something they have not.
They claimed the attacks to be in order to stop the rocket attacks which have killed less than 20 Israelis in 12 years - my maths is lousy, but I make that 100 dead Palestinians for every rocket victim.
You are obviously not going to respond to the fact that Israel would have denied the use of flechettes if they thought they could get away with such a claim - they haven't and they used them, just as they have used them, along with DIME and white phosphorus (which you have also supported) in previous attacks on Gaza, despite having renounced their us.
The fact that you have run out of everything other than straightforward denial always becomes obvious when you start referring to facts as "silly" is a recurring trait of yours.
You obviously intend to make this one of your fillibusts - back to your old "I'm the king of the castle" attention seeking.
In doing so, you are ignoring every single point being made.
Isn't it time you got yourself a life of your own away from the keyboard?
If you find yourself unable to do this, try reading what others have offered and responding to it with some intelligence and, more importantly, a little humanity - you are doing the Jewish people (who you have sown you have no regard for), nor the Christians you claim to share beliefs with, any good in presenting yourself as one of them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:55 AM

You appear to be now suggesting
No. Not suggesting anything.
Why not just reply to what I actually say, i.e. Israel can not reply to the attacks without hurting anyone, so is it acceptable?

You are obviously not going to respond to the fact that Israel would have denied the use of flechettes if they thought they could get away with such a claim - they haven't and they used them,

So your evidence is just that Israel does not bother denying every single accusation Palestinians routinely make.
Perhaps they have used them, but there is absolutely no evidence for it.

white phosphorus (which you have also supported)
Blatant, deliberate LIE Jim.

Why can you never just discuss the issues instead of always accusing me of stuff (quotes never supplied).


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 08:11 AM

Of course the child killing IDF has used flechettes [or metal darts ] against the population of Gaza.

The Guardian newspaper on the 20th July reported the IDF using flechettes quoting reliable sources.

But this horrific weapon which is basically a shell which explodes thousands of metal darts on impact is only one of a huge array of weapons used against the men , women and children of Gaza.....artillery and naval shells, missiles, tank shells, flechettes, sniper fire, warplanes and so on.

The destruction of Gaza happened on our television screens for all to see. We also saw the Zionist crowds on the hill overlooking Gaza cheering wildly and even attacking reporters while back in Tel Aviv the crowds of Zionist thugs were whooping with joy at the news of Palestinian children being killed.

Zonist rightwingers also attacked young anti war activists and today it was reported that a young Jewish bride and her muslim husband had their wedding attacked by a crowd of 200 Zionists angered at the this young couple's wedding day celebrations.

Zionism has taken Israel into a dead end. Its leaders[ war criminals all ] can only promise more blood and death.

But still the Palestinian people resist.
Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 09:25 AM

The Guardian newspaper on the 20th July reported the IDF using flechettes quoting reliable sources.

No.
They quoted a Palestinian propaganda group, and no further claim or evidence has emerged all these weeks later.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:57 AM

Why would the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights lie about the use of the deadly flechette weapons? They didn't need to make the killing method up with all those other death dealing weapons being used.

Every day last month children were being butchered and mutilated by the pride of the Israeli Defence Forces. They were being killed by the hundred . Tens of thousands have been traumatised.

Well wouldn't we all if we saw our home destroyed and our loved ones crushed. And they did it with with high tec weapons like drone missiles and low tech weapons like artillery shells and tank fire.

It wasn't just the children and their mothere who were slain though , it was doctors, ambulance paramedics and other health workers. Even the hospitals were smashed by missiles and bombs.


How did those doctors and health workers not breakdown and go mad under the strain of dealing with the hundreds of dead and dying children and thousands of other wounded , the vast majority of whom by the way had no links with the resistance fighters?

I saw one old lady running hundreds of yards shielding a wounded civilian as he was dragged along the road under fire from Israeli snipers and then there was that young man in the green T shirt shot dead by another sniper while searching the rubble for a missing relative accompanied by very brave and very scared International Observers.
Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

Why would the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights lie about the use of the deadly flechette weapons?

To demonize Israel obviously.
That is their job.
Weeks later, no-one else has seen any sign of such weapons despite camera crews in every hospital.
You are sooooo naive Ivor.

I agree about the horror and the suffering.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

Naive! Boy, that Ivor, he really is something else, innit... Can he be for real, d'you reckon?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:18 PM

According to William Schabes a Canadian International lawyer Benjamin Netanyahu has posed 'the greatest threat to Israel's survivalbecause of the war crimes that have been committed in Gaza by Israel.
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have been denied entry into Gaza by Israel which is working overdrive to rewrite the horrors of the past weeks..
ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM

So Keith, the Israeli regime is so solicitous as to the wellbeing of the poor people of Gaza. They are so humanitarian, aren't they? Which is why they used white phosophorus in Gaza last time round as well as US-supplied cluster bombs in Lebanon, which are still blowing kiddies' feet off to this day?

None so blind, Keith, none so bloody blind. That's what bigotry does for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM

Israel did not use white phosphorus weapons, only smoke rounds.
They have not even used those this time, so that is good. Right?

Cluster weapons were used by all modern forces, but israel has stopped using them so that is good. Right?

You did say that Israel has a right to defend itself Steve.
How can they do that without hurting anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 07:29 PM

Israel definitely used white phosphorus, Keith. You remind me of that little lament by Dannie Abse:


They held up a stone.
I said, 'Stone.'
Smiling they said, 'Stone.'

They showed me a tree.
I said, 'Tree.'
Smiling they said, 'Tree.'

They shed a man's blood.
I said, 'Blood.'
Smiling they said, 'Paint.'

They shed a man's blood.
I said, 'Blood.'
Smiling they said, 'Paint.'


They said white phosphorus.
Keith said "smoke round".

They said white phosphorus.
Keith said "smoke round".

They said white phosphorus.
Keith said "smoke round".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

There is a huge difference between WP smoke munitions and WP anti-personnel rounds Steve.
Jim and I discussed it in some depth at the time.
Israel has used neither this time, so what is your point?

You agreed that Israel has a right to defend itself, but did you mean only if it does not hurt anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:54 AM

"Jim and I discussed it in some depth at the time."
No we didn't - you defend it then - I argued by producing horrific photographs of children whose faces had been burned to the bone by its use, which you ignored, but continued to defend its use.
That cannot be described by any stretch of the imagination as "discussion" - it is your declaration that what you say is unchallengable, possibly due to your claims of "infallibility".
Do not implicate me in your lying.
These weapons have been acknowledges as unacceptable - they declared they would stop using them yet have resumed the practice.
It is not a "latent lie" that you supported iT - you claimed it as "harmless illumination"
"To demonize Israel obviously."
Then why would Israel not deny the use ON WHAT GROUNDS ARE YOU DENYING THE USE OF FLECHETTES IF ISRAEL HAS ACCEPTED THEY HAVE USED THEM BY FAILING TO DENY ACCUSATIONS THAT THEY HAVE?
By the way, your claim that no injuries have been reported was a blatant lie - the first article on them being used reported a woman being brought into a hospital with flechette wounds.
One more try:
IF ISRAEL HAS NOT DENIED USING FLECHETTES, WHAT ARE YOUR GROUNDS FOR DENYING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USED?
Jim Carroll

Images of "harmless illumination.
ATTACKS ON SCHOOLS

W P "burns to the bone"

ISRAEL GIVES UP WHITE PHOSPHORUS

PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:07 AM

ISRAEL HAS ACCEPTED THEY HAVE USED THEM BY FAILING TO DENY ACCUSATIONS THAT THEY HAVE?
Failing to deny is not an admission Jim.
They do not deny every bit of Palestinian propaganda.

IF ISRAEL HAS NOT DENIED USING FLECHETTES, WHAT ARE YOUR GROUNDS FOR DENYING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USED?

I do not deny it Jim, but I do say there is no evidence for it.
The claim was one single wounding weeks ago.
If there were one there would be a hundred.

No we didn't - you defend it then
No I did not.

you claimed it as "harmless illumination"
No I did not, and the quote is made up.
They were smoke not illumination rounds.

Why will you never just respond to what I actually say, instead of always bringing up things from years ago that I never said anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM

Here are some actual quotes Jim, not made up ones.
They are quotes of me NOT defending the use of white phosphorus in Gaza.
All dates are 2010

Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM

Jim, "Show me where you have once acknowledged the damage they do to people."

20th July White phosphorous is nasty stuff,
I do not condone Israel's use of WP where it endangered civillians.
I deplored it.

21st July The use close to civillians was reckless and deplorable,

22nd July You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.
I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza
It is dangerous, but not a targetted weapon.
I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal.

25th July Emma, I agree WP is too dangerous to use in populated areas
Everyone knows that phosphorus burns

26th july I have never denied that smoke munitions can cause injury, and said its use here was deplorable and possibly illegal.
Do I need to say again that I deplored its use here and said it might have been illegal?
I never suggested smoke was harmless. In fact I said all along that it should not have been used and may have been illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 07:46 AM

It was good to see the big Jewish block of marchers on the huge London demonstration in support of Gaza two weeks ago.

The march was made up of people from many backgrounds and religions [ and none ].

All there to demand an end to the bombing of Gaza, the mass murder of its children, an ending of the military and economic blockade of this ruined city, and the stopping of arms and munitions to Israel by the UK government.

In contrast, the defence of the slaughter by assorted Zionists and right wing neo con types and other apologists has been sickening.
Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

What about all the suffering and death, on a vaster scale, over Israel's other border?
You never post about that Ivor.
What is the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

This thread is about BDS and Israel!

Israel knows a great deal about the other side of its borders having attacked over them quite a number of times over the years...Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia ,Jordan but have I missed any out? Oh yes they killed about a dozen Turkish volunteers on a relief boat heading to Gaza three years ago.

The attacks on Lebanon and Beirut were extremely brutal.Israel connived as the refugee camps of Sabra and shatilla were attacked by its falangist allies who went in with knives and machine guns to commit mass murder on children ,babies, women and the elderly.

The Palestinian fighters had previously left by ship after being given assurances that their refugee families would not be harmed.

The IDF guarded the perimeters of the refugee camps while the killers went in to do the wet work.

Incidentally, Israel is the only country that I know of which will not state where its border lies to the east......it intends to keep moving it and enlarging its territory.

It may be that the ISIS murderers in Iraq have a great deal in common with the Israeli murderers of Gaza...both sets of killers seem to enjoy their work.Both armed with American weaponry. Both claim divine sanction for their killings.
ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:47 AM

The killing, carnage and destruction in Syria and Iraq dwarfs Gaza but you ignore it Ivor, never posting on those threads.
What is the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 11:15 AM

Keith
Two quotes from you on the use of White Phosphorus in Gaza
"They are quotes of me NOT defending the use of white phosphorus in Gaza. "White phosphorus is used for illumination and making smoke, but it does burn.
That is how it makes light and smoke."

"Phosphorus is not that toxic.
In Gaza smoke munitions were used to create smoke."

"I said it was wrong and deplorable"
Where have you said it - you have claimed you have said it but you never have.
Here you are claiming to have said it?
Bollocks

"Failing to deny is not an admission Jim."
It most certainly is:
Flechettes are marginally allowable against combatants - against civilians they are a banned weapon.
Israel has them as part of their weaponry and it has used them before.
If it had not used them they would have denied carrying out a war crime - they have not.
i ask again BY WOSE AUTHORITY OTHER THAN YOUR OWN DO YOU DENY THEIR USE, OR EVEN QUESTION IT?
Your main defence of Israeli war crimes hs been that if they had committed them they would have been condemned by democratic nations - support by silence.
You appear to be wanting one rule for you and one for the rest of us again.
"What about all the suffering and death, on a vaster scale, over Israel's other border?"
What has this to do with what has happened in Gaza?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:17 PM

An indication to the state of Israel today is the mob of 200 young Zionists thugs attacking the wedding of a young Jewish woman and a young Palestinian citizen of Israel [ 20% of Israel's population are Palestinian and treated like second or third class citizens in Israel ].
The mob were held at bay but were shouting 'Death to the Arabs!' and 'Death to the leftists!' which by my reckoning means they are calling for the murder of about 30% of the population of Israel ...and this before they renew their attack on Gaza and elsewhere.
But good luck to Morel Malka and Mahmoud Mansour in their new life together..they will need it.
ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:24 PM

I suppose that when you have to choose between saying you were wrong and carrying on defending mass slaughter of innocents, it's best to just keep bare facing it out eh Keith?

I've backed a few wrong horses myself over the years, but mainly at my annual trip to Doncaster St Ledger or York Magnet Cup.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

Jim, are you denying that my quotes are genuine.
In them I deplore the use of white phos. in Gaza and suggest it might be illegal.

against civilians they are a banned weapon.

All weapons are banned against civilians, chump!

Musket,
I suppose that when you have to choose between saying you were wrong and carrying on defending mass slaughter of innocents,

I have not been wrong, and I have never defended "mass slaughter of innocents," so what is your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM

"Jim, are you denying that my quotes are genuine."
No - I am saying you have taken them out of context, largely made in defence of previous statements - I provided two that put them in context and show your attitude to be defending the use of White Phosphorus by downgrading it as "illumination" while it was burning the faces off children.
"I have not been wrong, and I have never defended "mass slaughter of innocents," so what is your point?"
You defended Israel's role in the mass slaughter of the Sabra Shatila refugees and you defended Assad's slaughter of the people of Homs by suggesting that he be sold riot control equipment and it was OK to sell him "only a hnadful of" sniper rifles and chemicals to make weapons.
I ask again BY WHOSE AUTHORITY ARE YOU TAKING IT ON YOURSELF TO CLAIM ISRAEL HAS NOT USED FLECHETTES - ISRAEL HAS NEVER DENIED THEY HAVE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

Jimmy,

And YOU have defended Hamas using human shields, anti-personnel warheads on civilians, and killing children to make attack tunnels to attack civilians.


So?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM

Jim, here again are the statements I made just on 22 July 2010,

" You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.

I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza

I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal."

Unequivocal whatever the context.
Your claim that I DID support its use is shown to be a lie, as I said.

The quotes you put up are simple statements of fact not opinion, and are not at all supporting the use of WP.

"BY WHOSE AUTHORITY ARE YOU TAKING IT ON YOURSELF TO CLAIM ISRAEL HAS NOT USED FLECHETTES "

Again Jim, I make no such claim, but I do say that no evidence for their use has yet been produced.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM

Re flechettes:

I quoted ONE report by a Palestinian source that 6 tank rounds were fired, causing ONE Palestinian woman to be wounded. Claim only, no physical evidence of flechettes.

No other use has been brought out, even by the Palestinian sources that have access to the hospitals to obtain any shrapnel from wounds.

One might well suspect the absence of shrapnel being brought out as evidence has something to do with the number of ANTI_PERSONNEL WARHEADS that HAMAS has dropped on Gaza, with identifiable shrapnel.


Not quite the mass slaughter that Jimmy would like to see, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:03 PM

"Not quite the mass slaughter that Jimmy would like to see, obviously."
Waste of time asking you wen I have advocated the slaughter of anybody, just as it would asking me to comment on Israeli death squads.
Never claimed mass slaughter by flechettes - just that they were used - you appear to agree
've posted what you said about W.P. being 'illumination' = which gives everything else you've said context Keith
Shit - I'm missing Holby City talking to you pair of gobshites
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:07 PM

Jimmy boy,

READ MY POST.

"Never claimed mass slaughter by flechettes - just that they were used - you appear to agree
'"

YOU have been claiming said slaughter OF CIVILIANS- Don't you even bother to read YOUR OWN POSTS???????I said that there was ONE report by an unverified source.

NOT the wholesale use YOU have claimed has been killing Palestinian civilians.

You are a sorry excuse for a person if you don't understand simple statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:44 PM

Jim, white phosphorous IS used in illumination flares, including those used at sea.
It is also used to produce smoke.
It is also used in incendiary munitions.

I was educating you with facts, not stating any opinion except that I did not agree with its use in Gaza.

Now Jim, instead of trying to discredit me by misrepresenting things I said years ago, why not start replying to what I actually say this year???


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:20 PM

And YOU have defended Hamas using human shields, anti-personnel warheads on civilians, and killing children to make attack tunnels to attack civilians.

And YOU do not have a scrap of evidence for any of this, prancing goatee copy 'n' paste clown. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:14 AM

The boycott of Israel has been strengthened in California when thousands turned out in the port city of Oakland to picket the docking of an Israeli cargo ship belonging to the zim shipping line.
The longshoremen bolstered by the community picketing refused to handle the cargo and the ship has had to stay out at sea while the owners ponder the nest move.
The mass murder of hundreds of children in gaza...a little girl was killed by an air strike yesterday ... Cannot fail but to strengthen the demand for a boycott of the murderous state of Israel.. A state that the Israeli commentator Mike peled so accurately said recently was founded on racism and colonialism.
Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:10 AM

"A state that the Israeli commentator Mike peled so accurately said recently was founded on racism and colonialism"
.,,.

Ah: like the USA, which, as has frequently been said, by distinguished director Michael Moore et al, was founded on a firm basis of slavery and genocide. Last I heard, at least the Israelis don't have laws permitting slave ownership...

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM

"YOU have been claiming said slaughter OF CIVILIANS"
Not with flechettes you moron - I put up a link showing six were fired
It also pointed out that only one woman was reported as being injured
You read what has been put up - or get someone to read it for you.
No comments on the Israeli death squads then killing survivors then? - thought not
"Jim, white phosphorous IS used in illumination flares, including those used at sea."
Cricket bats are for hitting balls - used as weapons they can be lethal
Israel has been using white phosphorus as weapons and has admitted that their use is unacceptable, yet has resumed use of it.
By suggesting that it was only used for illumination, you have supported that use throughout
Your claim, first that flechettes were legal, then that their use was faked, is, similarly, support for their use.
You are a squalid atrocity supporter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM

Israel has been using white phosphorus as weapons

No, it has not used them as weapons.
Only as smoke and illumination.

and has admitted that their use is unacceptable,


In civilian areas yes.

yet has resumed use of it.


No. It has not.

By suggesting that it was only used for illumination, you have supported that use throughout


Incendiary weapons have not been used, only smoke and illumination.


Your claim, first that flechettes were legal, then that their use was faked, is, similarly, support for their use.


They are a legal weapon, and we only have one unsubstantiated claim from one Palestinian propaganda group that they have beeen used in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 05:29 AM

Jim, you claimed I supported the use of WP in Gaza, but the truth is that I "deplored" it and repeatedly said so.

Because you can not reply to what I actually say, you try to discredit me by lying about what was said years ago.

Let us just discuss the issues and not me always.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:10 AM

"Jim, you claimed I supported the use of WP in Gaza, but the truth is that I "deplored" it and repeatedly said so.
For cryig out loud Keith - the time you have spent both on flechette and White Phosphorus, either explaining they are "legal", "not used by Israel", makes it obvious that you don't give a shit what Israel does, what weapons she uses and who she uses them on.
In your time here you have defended the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins, the setting up of an Apartheid State, the slaughter of civilians and the facilitating of the rape and massacre of up to 3500 refugees.... to name but a few of your interests.
You are Mudcat's star Israeli Arselicker and you have displayed less humanity than anybody I have encountered.
You have become a standing joke on this forum for your hatred of humanity and your predictability.
You continue to support Israel's use of white phosphorus - great, couldn't finish on a batter note.
If you need the lend of a shovel, there's a spare one in the shed - dig away.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:00 AM

I see from today's new reports that Israel has been following its usual 'war protocol' of slaughtering yet more Palestinian children..at least 5 in the past 2 days.... plus the slaying of a heavily pregnany woman in Gaza.
Apparently it aimed a missile at a Palestinian commander and killed instead eleven others.
I am not in the least surprised by the mass killings of civilians in Gaza nor should anyone else who has been following events in blockaded Gaza, Israel and the occupied territories.
Israel was founded on terror . It has spent decades murdering and terrorising the people of Palestine. They are the living witness to the crimes of the Israeli state and oh how the leaders of Israel and its backers wish they would go away and disperse around the world.
There have been scores of massacres, some well known and many others barely noticed by the outside world.
Deir Yassin, the bombing of Beirut, the attacks by Israeli warplanese on the refugees in the UN base in Southern Lebanon , Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, the use of white phospherous against civilians and the destruction of whole neighbourhoods in Gaza while the young zionist mobs cheered and exulted at the murder of Palestinian children.
Zionism didn't start out as such a violent and savage political idea but its historical development as a colonial and racist ideology has almost inevitably led to those right wing killers intensifying the savagery against the Palestinians...the victims and witness to their crimes.
ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM

"that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
That is what the Israeli Press said - your link includes a film in which the Ambassador said that both the Israelis and Palestinians were guilty of war crimes - watch the film - it comes with a translation, so your friend should have no difficulty explaining it to you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:33 AM

Jimmy boy,

I provided NO LINK, just my post.

If you have one that shows what you state, provide it- OR REMAIN A LIAR.

YOU make a claim that my non-posted link shows something- SO POST THAT LINK.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:35 AM

"If you have one that shows what you state, provide it- OR REMAIN A LIAR."
You have one - go and watch it O Bearded Braindead
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:38 AM

I think the casualties of the past few weeks show much of what has been happening:
64 Israeli soldiers killed and hundreds wounds plus three civilian death

10000+ Palestinian wounded including hundreds of children and women
2500+ Palestinian dead including over 400 children.
The refugee city of Gaza smashed with whole neighbourhoods obliterated by Israeli bombing and shelling.
Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:46 AM

Jimmy,

YOU state:

"You claimed the Hamas ambassador said that it was Hamas and not Israel who were guilty of war crimes
You posted a link purporting to be him saying it.
The link shows that in fact he said that both bere guilty of committing war crimes
"

In regards to the rockets that HAMAS launches, he DOES state that the Hamas rockest are ecah war crimes, and the Israeli attack are NOT, since there is warning.

He claims that Israel is guilty of other unspecified war crimes, but on the Hamas rockets and warned Israeli rockets, missiles, and artillery attacks on Gaza he is quite specific that HAMAS AND NOT ISRAEL is guilty of war crimes.

People who want the truth can go to the NOW POSTED link and see for themselves. Maybe YOU should as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:59 AM

Jim,
You continue to support Israel's use of white phosphorus - great, couldn't finish on a batter note.

I have just produced a string of quotes where I clearly say I "deplore" it.
Not "support" Jim, but "deplore."

Try to see and understand the difference Jim dear.

Factual explanation of the legal position and the types of munition do not constitute any kind of support for anything.

Now please, stop trying to smear me with lies about posts over 4 years old and just respond to what I actually say.


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