BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 06:08 AM

No I haven't. I detest the present Israeli regime far more than you ever can; your youth wasn't dedicated to bringing about the existence of the betrayal of all our hopes that they have become. But if you imagine that that fact obviates entirely the fact that hostility to that state can frequently be used as a useful but pretty well transparent veil for antisemitism, then you are not bringing to the matter the full use of your undoubted intelligence ~~~ and one can only sigh and wonder why!

Try asking yourself, just once...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM

Really no need for abuse Mike - we do seem to be more or less on the same side on this question.
Antisemitism can come in all forms, but it doesn't make those who find what is happening in Israel today Antisemites, nor does it make their case any less valid.
If we could remove this Antisemitism shit from these arguments, maybe we could get down to addressing the facts of the situation calmly and without the rencour it inevitably causes - it is your crowd that has but up this particularly distasteful line of defence, just as it is the same people who have made these crimes "Jewish".
"Try asking yourself just once.... rather than slinging "Jew-baiter" about, as you have done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

>The proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region<

If this is the definition of Zionism, then Israel is a theocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM

"The proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region"
Echoed by a settler interviewed in the excellent series of programmes on the history of the Jews who gave a chilling account of how far he believed the State of Israel should stretch.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM

Stringsinger -- The fact that Judaism is the official state religion no more makes Israel "a theocracy" than the fact that the Church of England is "Established" makes the UK one. Or are all countries with a state religion theocracies? In which case how is it as pejorative a term as you are obviously trying to make it sound?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM

Stringsinger doesn't have a problem with Christian states Vatican, most of Europe, All of South America) , or Muslim ones Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc…). He only objects to Jewish states.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM

Yes. And there's a word for it, isn't there? But we'd better not say it or poor old Jim might have 50 coniptions!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

A well-matched pair - keep it up and you'll have three of a kind.
Isn't it time you found another volcano to sit on Mike - that one must be getting pretty cold by now?
Anyway - must go.
I've promised not to hang around with thread-huggers - have a nice hate boys.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:48 PM

WAiting on future "BDS" of theocracies…


"

Currently, the following religions have been established as state religions in some countries. All are versions of Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.

Christian countries[edit]
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):

Catholic[edit]
Jurisdictions where Catholicism has been established as a state or official religion:

Alsace-Moselle
Argentina[5]
Costa Rica[6]
Liechtenstein[7]
Malta[8]
Monaco[9]
Vatican City (theocracy)
Other
Andorra
Dominican Republic
El Salvador,[10]
Panama
Paraguay,[11] Peru,[12]
Poland,[13]
Spain[14]
Portugal
Ireland
The above listed countries also give constitutional privileges to Catholicism without necessarily referring to it as the state religion.

Eastern Orthodox[edit]
Jurisdictions where one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches has been established as a state religion:

Greece: Church of Greece[15]
Mount Athos (officially the 'Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain')
Georgia: Georgian Orthodox Church[16] (See Concordat of 2002)
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church[17] is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members, and receives a share of corporate tax revenue of the state.[18] The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.

Protestantism[edit]
Lutheran[edit]
Jurisdictions where a Lutheran church has been established as a state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the percentage of the population being members.

Denmark (Church of Denmark)[19] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland)[20] (76.81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [21]
Norway (Church of Norway)[22][23][24]
Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[17] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the Parliament of Finland. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish Constitution and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[25] (77.2% of population members at the end of 2011).[26] The President of the Republic of Finland also decides the themes for intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.

Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2011 the Church of Sweden had 68.8% of the population as its members although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was automatic for children of members. Since 1996, baptism is the basis for membership.[27]

Reformed[edit]
Jurisdictions where a Reformed church has been established as a state religion:

Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)
Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.[28]

At the cantonal state level in Switzerland, of 26 Swiss cantons, 24 give official recognition to both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church. The Cantons of Geneva and Neuchâtel have no state recognized church. At the federal state level, Switzerland has no official religion.

Anglican[edit]
See also: State religion#Tabular summary
Jurisdictions where an Anglican church has been established as a state religion:

England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [29] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.

Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops.

Muslim countries[edit]
Main articles: Political aspects of Islam, Sharia, Caliphate, Islamic religious police (disambiguation), and Islamism

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2012)
Many Muslim-majority countries have constitutionally established Islam, or a specific form of it, as a state religion. Proselytism on behalf of other religions is often illegal.

Islam (non-denominational)[edit]
Bangladesh (Section 2A of the 1972 constitution specifies, "The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic."[30])
Iraq
Djibouti[31]
Pakistan[32]
Palestine[33]
Sunni Islam[edit]
Afghanistan Algeria Brunei Comoros Egypt Jordan Libya Maldives Malaysia Mauritania Morocco Qatar Saudi Arabia Somalia Tunisia United Arab Emirates
Shiʾa Islam[edit]
Iran (theocracy)
Ibadi[edit]
Oman
Mixed Shia and Sunni[edit]
Kuwait
Yemen (Zaydi fiqh among Zaydi Shias)
Bahrain
Buddhist countries[edit]
Governments where Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, has been established as an official religion:

Theravada Buddhism[edit]
Cambodia[34]
Other
The constitution of Sri Lanka accords Buddhism the "foremost place", although it does not identify it as a state religion.[35]

Likewise, in Thailand, the 2007 Thai constitution recognized Buddhism as "the religion of Thai tradition with the most adherents".[citation needed] However, it is not formally identified as a state religion.

Vajrayana Buddhism[edit]
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)[36]
Israel[edit]
Israel is defined in several of its laws as a "Jewish and democratic state" (medina yehudit ve-demokratit). However, the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can describe the Jewish people as both an ethnic or a religious group. The debate about the meaning of the term "Jewish" and its legal and social applications is one of the most profound issues with which Israeli society deals.

The State of Israel supports religious institutions, particularly Orthodox Jewish ones, and recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Jewish and Christian (Eastern Orthodox, Latin [Catholic], Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian [Catholic], Chaldean [Uniate], Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, and Syrian Orthodox). The fact that the Muslim population was not defined as a religious community is a vestige of the Ottoman period[citation needed] during which Islam was the dominant religion and does not affect the rights of the Muslim community to practice their faith. At the end of the period covered by this report, several of these denominations were pending official government recognition; however, the Government has allowed adherents of not officially recognized groups freedom to practice. In 1961, legislation gave Muslim Shari'a courts exclusive jurisdiction in matters of personal status. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized by Israeli law: the Druze (prior under Islamic jurisdiction), the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Bahá'í.[37] These groups have their own religious courts as official state courts for personal status matters (see millet system).

The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate. However, outspoken Israeli secularists such as Shulamit Aloni and Uri Avnery have long maintained that it is that in practice. Non-recognition of other streams of Judaism such as Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism is the cause of some controversy; rabbis belonging to these currents are not recognized as such by state institutions and marriages performed by them are not recognized as valid. As of 2011 marriage in Israel provides no provision for civil marriage, marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious communities, or same-sex marriages, although there is recognition of marriages performed abroad.

Political religions[edit]
In some countries, there is a political ideology sponsored by the government that may be called political religion.[38]"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

but the distinction cannot always be so simply made.

It can be simply made inside my head. I'm honest and I'm not antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

Anyway - must go.
I've promised not to hang around with thread-huggers
J Carroll

Contemptible scaredy-cat. Nyaahhhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM

I've been trying for a while to take more care with terminology on this issue. I'm not antisemitic and I don't want to be called it, so I don't talk about "the Jewish lobby" for example (try pro-Israel lobby instead) and I try to remember that, in opposing such horrid policies as settlement expansion, the splitting apart of Palestinian families and the use of white phosphorus in Gaza, I am talking about the Israeli government's actions and not "Israel". Plenty of people in Israel, of all persuasions, I'm led to believe, hate what goes on and hate being tarred with the one brush. What the Israeli government does, deliberately to Palestinians and unintentionally to Israeli Jews, is bad for everyone in that country, men, women and children. They all deserve a better deal than the one on offer from their boneheaded and hubris-smitten political leaders (and from the ones in their poodle state, the US). That's my take and I'm sticking to it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

"Only those with pathetically short time horizons, an abysmally poor knowledge of history, or simply implacable anti-Semitic leanings will refuse to acknowledge why after two millennia of persecution a Jewish homeland was finally created and why its moral legitimacy and physical existence is simply beyond denial."

http://news.yahoo.com/passover-hell-week-190000272--politics.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:58 PM

"Contemptible scaredy-cat. Nyaahhhhh!"
You've already had your third childhood - at least - can't have that many more left.
You've been given the facts - you choose to ignore them - sticking out your tongue doesn't hack it.
Just in case you missed it
15 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM
or
23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM
Jamaica Inn awaits - must get my night-viewing glasses
Sleep well and pleasant dreams
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM

Only those with ... implacable anti-Semitic leanings will refuse to acknowledge... [the] moral legitimacy and physical existence is simply beyond denial.

Cute, BBruce. Real cute.

But that doesn't "legitimize" the current policies of the Israeli GOVERNMENT.

I'm personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government and who are thus by your definition and that of BooBad & the other Israeli apoligists on this forum "Anti-Semites".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

"The BDS campaign has two main ingredients -- one is deception and the other is another kind of lie."

No, the great lie is the overt propaganda offered by the Israeli government.

"In some countries, there is a political ideology sponsored by the government that may be called political religion."

Not in a democracy. Thomas Jefferson had a lot to say about that.

Although Israel has many church affiliates within its borders, they are permitted only if they don't interfere with the occupation of Palestinians.

"WAiting on future "BDS" of theocracies…"

That sounds like a very good idea. Fortunately, the advanced countries of the world are not subjected to theocratic pressure.

It must be remembered that Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims in general can't be anti-Semitic because they are anthropologically classified as Semites as well as Jews.

BB says about me, "Stringsinger doesn't have a problem with Christian states Vatican, most of Europe, All of South America) , or Muslim ones Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc…). He only objects to Jewish states."

I must tell him that he is grossly misinformed and has not bothered to ask what I really think about this issue but like some here wants to corner me by his verbal traps.

I have a problem with Christian States, Muslim States or any theocracy that doesn't observe the Separation of Church and State as we have traditionally done in the US since the inception of our Constitution which defines us as Americans.

I don't think BB is qualified to comment on what takes place in "most of Europe" or "all of South America" which is becoming more and more enlightened and unchurched.

As in the US, the governments of many countries have been corrupted by clerical power
however, in time this will be rectified in the same manner as corporate power here in the States becomes apparent.

"Stringsinger -- The fact that Judaism is the official state religion no more makes Israel "a theocracy" than the fact that the Church of England is "Established" makes the UK one. Or are all countries with a state religion theocracies? In which case how is it as pejorative a term as you are obviously trying to make it sound? "

Then perhaps you can explain Zionism to me reasonably and its predication on scriptural references. The Church of England is being ignored and not used as a method of occupation, though in the past, this might have taken place. Yes, all countries with a state religion could be classified as a theocracy especially if it takes its form in controlling official governmental decisions. I am merely explaining that a country that uses religion to base its political decisions as does Israel and Saudi Arabia are in fact theocracies. Pejorative is not the word I have used.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

String: If you google Theodor Herzl, Zionism, and Der Judenstaat [title of Herzl's pamphlet genarally accepted as the founding document of Zionism as a political movement] you will find that its impetus was political and secular, and only marginally, if at all, relgiously based. Israel is no more a theocracy than any other modern state with an established religion, to which it is not in any way mandatory to belong to achieve citizenship. There are religious political parties, to be sure, but plenty of secular ones also; religion plays no more part in Israeli political decisions and policies than does the presence of bishops in the House of Lords here in the UK.

And do for heaven's sake drop the tired dreary old bromide about how some people, other than Jews, who happen also to be ethnically Semitic can't be antisemitic in the accepted sense of the term, which in accepted usage applies solely to hostility to Jews. There are perfectly good semantic and historical reasons for this which only a dishonestly motivated hair-splitting maker of crass non-applicable debating points would ignore. Here eg is the opening of wikipedia's entry:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.[1] A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite". As Jews are an ethnoreligious group, antisemitism is generally considered a form of racism.
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[4]

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:50 PM

One notes that the Israeli leadership has pulled out of talks with the Palestinians because Hamas is back in the fold. Yeah, right. This is hardly news at all, is it. Not once in the sorry history of the Israel/Palestine conflict has Israel been serious about peace talks. Why not? Because Israel does not have to make one single concession, ever. Why's that? Because the USA, Israel's poodle (and AIPAC will always make sure it stays that way), will neither criticise nor sanction Israel in any way, no matter how egregious Israel's atrocities may be. Big news on the Beeb tonight, it was, but a big bloody ho-hum from me.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

The tragedy is that by failing to make a peaceful settlement of the conflict at this time - preferring to make other illegal type of settlement - the Government of Israel is making it increasingly probable that in the long term the country called Israel will have the same transitory existence ad the Crusader Kingdoms in the Holy Land.

And that really would be a tragedy in all kinds of ways.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM

And, of course, Israel wil abjure any and all responsibility in that unfortunate outcome

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:00 PM

MgM, the idea that Zionism is a secular movement doesn't even take into account the meaning of the term, that borrowed from the Old Testament. In fact, the religious political parties dominate the policies of Israel and that the idea that the rabbis of Israel play no part in Israeli politics than does the house of bishops is blatantly incorrect.
That is analogous to the same propaganda that is given when we call the US a democracy today.

As far as the "dreary old bromide" to insist that the term Semitic be applied to only Jewish people is prejudicial and racist. The only accepted usage of the term being applied to Jews only is a propaganda device that has no relevance in today's Mid-East conflicts.

If you trust Wikipedia's entry, than I suggest that you take into account Tom Lehrer's
dictum: "Those who seek their knowledge through the internet deserve all the disinformation they get."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,JotSC
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

Stringsinger wrote, "As far as the "dreary old bromide" to insist that the term Semitic be applied to only Jewish people is prejudicial and racist."

Well, Frank, I know of no one here, nor at any place else I've heard or read, who has insisted that Semitic refers only to Jews. It doesn't and you know it! On the other hand, the terms "anti-Semite" and anti-Semitic has been the specific euphemism for anti-Jewish since the last quarter of the 19th century until very recently. The recent cooption of Palestineans and perhaps Arabs in general into that term has been by folks who wish to persuade the world that if one is on the side of Palestineans or Arabs then one cannot be an anti-Semite. That form of 'new speak' says a lot to me about the person who uses it, and defends their that usage--and what tells me is quite negative. We, at Mudcat, have had this discussion many times, and you've over over the past 10 or 12 years, and I believe you may have taken part in at least some of them.

Henceforth, I will consider your mal use of the term, or anyone else's, here, to be a priori proof of antisemitism against Jews and Israel, in its true meaning.

John

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,JotSC
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:44 PM

Steve Shaw wrote, "Not once in the sorry history of the Israel/Palestine conflict has Israel been serious about peace talks... Because Israel does not have to make one single concession, ever."

A Big Pinocchio for that statement! Just a couple of refutations: Israel returned Gaza to the Palestineans to try to get substantive peace talks from the other side, and got bombs as a Palestinean compromise; on several, perhaps many, occasions Israel has released Palestinean prisoners, by the scores and hundreds, hoping to gain peace talks, and getting little or no positive response.

John

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:09 PM

"Israel returned Gaza to the Palestinians". Jesus, man, you make it sound like it was an act of alms-giving or something. Gaza was a game not worth the bloody candle to Israel, that's why it was "returned" (and I remind you that it wasn't Israel's to "return" in the first place). And it didn't take long, once Israel had "returned" Gaza, for them to besiege it and impoverish one and a half million imprisoned people. Not to speak of the war crimes visited on that place in the years to follow. Still, "John", one wouldn't expect you to understand any of that, would one, especially as you seem rather prone to calling honest people liars. Are you one of the bloody mods here or something?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM

"But if you imagine that that fact obviates entirely the fact that hostility to that state can frequently be used as a useful but pretty well transparent veil for antisemitism, then you are not bringing to the matter the full use of your undoubted intelligence ~~~ and one can only sigh and wonder why!"

We know very well that there are those who try to hide antisemitism behind the veil of criticism of Israel's politicians, but it is disingenuous on your part to pretend that Bobad and K A of H are not countering every single criticism with that argument, and constantly trying (unsuccessfully) to manoeuvre us into using the term Jew or Jewish and thereby giving credence to their accusations.

Do you see them as they obviously see themselves, as the only non antisemitic posters on this forum, or would you disassociate yourself from their obvious hard wired "Israel, right or wrong" attitude?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 03:43 PM

"One notes that the Israeli leadership has pulled out of talks with the Palestinians because Hamas is back in the fold."

I would have thought that Israel might have chosen negotiators possessed of the intelligence to realise that, since Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and Fatah the government of the West Bank, any peace settlement would, of necessity, include both.

The fact that the talks broke down over this point means that either
1). The negotiators are incompetent and should be replaced, or
2). There was never any intention that the talks should succeed.

What's your guess as to which?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 07:37 PM

It really is very simple. The Israeli regime does not have to make a single tiny concession of any kind, nor does it have to refrain from any atrocities against Palestinians. It can do what it likes, without fear of sanction, apropos of land-grabbing and the perpetration of military atrocities. Why? because it has the unconditional backing of the United States for whatever it does. Oh yes, we get the little slaps on the wrist when they do something horrible, but those slaps on the wrist are for our consumption only, They mean nothing. When Obama visits Jerusalem, Netanyahu announces more settlement expansion. The US is Israel's poodle. Why? Largely because the US media is solidly behind Israel to such an extent that people in the US never get the story, and largely because there is a pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, that will ensure that any hopeful White House incumbent (or any other politician) will be toast the minute they brief against Israel. Oh yes. In the land of the free, the least democratic organisation in the western world holds all the cards. Ironic, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 AM

Steve Shaw, you are absolutely right, and that is why my support for Israel, 7 decades after all the youthful energy I & my generation expended in trying to achieve its existence, is now nil: to my intense horror & disappointment as detailed in my reply to Michaelr's excellent question on the Islamic Radicalism thread, 25 Apr, 1241 am.

Troubadour: I agree that some like bobad & Keith are overplaying the "anti-Israel = antisemitic" card, which I do my best to avoid doing; but I thank you for conceding that denunciations of Israel can, and often do, try to mask underlying antisemitism tout simple.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM

nor does it have to refrain from any atrocities against Palestinians

There is such a thing as international law that would deal with an atrocity if one was ever committed.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:54 AM

"There is such a thing as international law that would deal with an atrocity if one was ever committed."
Successfully neutralised by over 100 vetoes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:19 AM

" bobad & Keith are overplaying the "anti-Israel = antisemitic" card,"

I don't recall stating that anti-Israel = antisemitic. I have used as my guideline the definitions put forward by the EUMC, the Ottawa Protocol and by the eminent champion of human rights, Irwin Cotler. Once again here are some examples of what constitutes anti-semitism according to their definitions. I don't think it can be denied that some of our more rabid anti Israel posters have invoked one or more of these calumnies.
   
   * Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;

   * Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

   * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;

   * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

   * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.[40][41]

The EUMC added that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as antisemitism so long as it is "similar to that leveled against any other country.

Also consider this argument from Irwin Cotler:

Cotler argues that classical antisemitism is discrimination against Jews as individuals whereas the new antisemitism, in contrast, "is anchored in discrimination against the Jews as a people – and the embodiment of that expression in Israel. In each instance, the essence of anti-Semitism is the same – an assault upon whatever is the core of Jewish self-definition at any moment in time."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM

"I don't recall stating that anti-Israel = antisemitic"
You have never stopped calling those who criticise Israel "antisemites BooBoo - even pulled up sites to back up your case
Senility approaches fast, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 12:31 PM

'You have never stopped calling those who criticise Israel "antisemites BooBoo [SIC]"

I have used as my guideline the definitions put forward by the EUMC, the Ottawa Protocol and by the eminent champion of human rights, Irwin Cotler.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 01:45 PM

Uh-Huh.

I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government and who are thus by your definition and that of BooBad & the other Israeli apoligists on this forum "Anti-Semites".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM

"I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government...."

Oh yeah.....well I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the millions upon millions of Israeli citizens who support the policies of the current Israeli government.....so there.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:48 PM

No vetoes on "atrocities."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah - sure there isn't - after all, they ain't atrocities if they're vetoed, are they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:20 PM

Well let's just have a little look at some of these, boibabd.



The sencond part of thdt represernts a non seq

   * Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

   * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;

   * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

   * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:46 PM

That last message of mine got all garbled. Ignore. This is what I intended:


Well let's just have a little look at some of these, bobad.

Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor

The second part of that does not follow on from the first. I have never denied the right of Israel to have self-determination (to the chagrin of some of my allies, who might wish I were more hawkish on that point), but by their fruits shall ye know them. The Israeli regime, and the regimes going back seventy years, have all behaved in a racist manner towards Palestinians. In the name of the Jewish state they are denied the good land, freedom of movement and equal rights. Because they are not Jews. This may be uncomfortable for you but it is undeniable.   

Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Oh yes, a double standard applies all right. Any other nation that steals land from another people (let's have a look at Russia, for example) is heavily criticised and sanctioned. But not Israel. AIPAC will always see to that.   

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis

I never see that in rational discourse. Even rabid anti-Israel types would see that as barking mad.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

Give me an example. I've never seen one.

You are clearly an unfortunate victim of your one-sided media and of your pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC. Otherwise you wouldn't hbve posted this nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:38 PM

Steve: I am with you in much of your last post; but re this section -
...
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above. --
...
If you have follow other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads] with whom I have fre

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:45 PM

My last post got garbled too -- what is it with this thread! Should have read in full thus --

Steve: I am with you in much of your last post; but re this section -
...
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above. --
...
If you have followed other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads] with whom I have frequently clashed over his incurable insistence on doing just that. He has once or twice promised to refrain from doing so when I have pointed out how offensive it is. I hope he has stopped doing it now.

I refrain from naming him here, but he is following, and contributing to, this thread, and will know I mean him.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:11 PM

the millions upon millions of Israeli citizens who support the policies of the current Israeli government

No surprise there, BooBad, but somewhat irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is your labelling of anyone who opposes the policies of said government as antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:29 PM

"....your labelling of anyone who opposes the policies of said government as antisemitic."

Please re-read for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:31 PM

I'll remind you of your last post next time you play the antisemetic card, BooBad. Count on it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM

You guys just give me too many opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:59 PM

So BooBad: you would then agree with the statement that the thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the actions of the current Israeli government are indeed antisemites.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM

Right Greg, you're a barrel of laughs....ha, ha.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:55 PM

I did say "most" people I know, Michael. There will always be the barking mad (and I'm not sure who you mean - not a mate of mine, one hopes!)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:00 PM

You guys just give me too many opportunities.

Yes we do, and you serially fail to take them, either because all you do is quote some irrelevant source or come up with one-liner quips which you think are clever but which are actually brainless. You are just a lazy, prejudiced and unreconstructed right-wing git, let's face it. And this is another opportunity you will fail to take in any meaningful sense. Go on, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Jimmy Carter, John Kerry and Their Best Friends
Posted: 04/28/2014 8:10 am EDT Updated: 04/28/2014 8:59 am EDT Print Article
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MORE: Israeli Palestinian Conflict Apartheid The New York Times Jimmy Carter Palestinian Territories Syria Violence John Kerry
When it comes to opining on Israel and the ongoing tensions and deliberations between Israelis and Palestinians, the views of the likes of President Jimmy Carter (his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid) and Secretary of State Kerry among other dignitaries and pundits are not far apart. Their host of scribbles and public posturing serve to fortify each other: that the Israelis are intransigent, unbending and worst of all, by bandying those freighted words 'colonizers' added to Carter's and now John Kerry's 'apartheid', serving to portray Israel's presence in the West Bank as both an occupation and worse, imbuing it with the trappings of a colonial subjugation thereby helping to rationalize and validate any and all attempts at Israel's delegitimization.

What is routinely overlooked by these pundits, is that Israel's presence on the West Bank is the consequence of the massive mobilization of Arab armies on Israel's borders poised to attack Israel, thereby sparking the onset of hostilities in 1967. Israel's presence on the West Bank is referred to misguidedly and simply as "won by Israel in the 1967 war.." (Please see Thomas Friedman's New York Times Op-ed "Sheldon: Iran's Best Friend") with no mention that the genesis of the 1967 war was to defend the integrity of the Israeli state against a brace of Arab armies intent not only on eliminating Israel, but one could surmise -- given the myriad examples of Arab intolerance between Shia and Sunni in contemporary Syria and Iraq, the ongoing slaughter in Syria, given the teachings of Wahhabi scripture, Salafist indoctrination or the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Jew hatred taught in Arab madrassas or the vile bile emanating from Hamas Palestinians as well as from Hezbollah among others -- that a successful invasion by Arab States over Israel might well have resulted not only in the elimination of the Jewish State but also in the murderous destruction of its Jewish citizenry.

Far fetched you say? One needs understand in the deep consciousness of virtually every Jew is the reality of history, namely the profound perversity of Deutschland's Auschwitz.

Certainly there are many issues that both sides need to accommodate, but pundits rationalizing the isolation of Israel will only make the Palestinians more intransigent and the Israelis more fearful of the long shadow of history and their sworn determination that it will happen "Never Again."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-j-learsy/jimmy-carter-john-kerry-a_b_5224846.html