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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM
Stewie 16 Mar 19 - 11:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM
Stewie 16 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 16 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 16 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Mar 19 - 04:10 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM
Vic Smith 16 Mar 19 - 05:05 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM
GUEST 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM
Vic Smith 17 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 17 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,im bainbridge 17 Mar 19 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM
Vic Smith 17 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 17 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 04:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM
The Sandman 18 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM
Howard Jones 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM
Vic Smith 18 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 08:40 AM
Howard Jones 18 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM
Vic Smith 18 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

""
It depe4nds on the process the song went through Dick
I know of several 'Jesse James's, which indicates it went through some sort of absorption into the tradition
You might say the same of 'The Wreck of the Old 97, which was claimed by two songwriters and which brought about the first legal fight over a folksong
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM

Incidentally Dick
If you care to read Lomax's note to Jesse James, he says that it was written by an "anonymous poet"
The verse says it was made by Billy Glashade, but that doesn't mean it was - American singers tended to end their songs with a last verse saying "This song was made, written, or sung" by... whoever
Lomax's "anonymous"attribution indicates this
Stop trying to score points if you haven't done the backup work - it always ends in tears
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:14 AM

Jim, several days ago, when Steve Graham referred to Lankum, you posted that they were totally unrepresentative of what was happening in Ireland. You may be interested in the following quote from an article about the band:

"Another source that the band find themselves coming back to repeatedly is the collection From Puck to Appleby. First released in 2003, it contains a unique collection of songs from Irish Travellers living around London from the 1970s onwards, recorded by Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie.

Because Lankum sing a range of songs from the Traveller repertoire, in particular those by Mary Delaney, the treatment of Travellers in Irish society weighs on them. ‘We sing a number of songs that we got from Traveller singers’, says Peat, ‘and it’s very jarring and difficult to know that and see how the Travelling community is treated'."

It came from here:

Click

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

Ok. If I have this right, to be a contemporary song in the folk idiom, it needs to pass the following tests

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "folky" style
7. The melody is irrelevant. It is just there to carry the words.

Just to confirm I am making no false assumptions, do I have that right? If so, I am happy with that and am more than prepared to explain, in those terms, some songs that I would class as the folk idiom that you may not. Can you confirm I do have it right though before I go down that route please?

One thing does strike me in the meanwhile, if the melody is irrelevant, can any tune (not song, tune) played in a folky style on traditional instruments be classed as in the folk idiom? The previously mentioned Tune for a found harmonium played by Sharon Shannon and band for instance.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:17 AM

My apologies, my previous post should have read 'Steve Gardham'. I thought I had that correct.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Stewie
I have no argument with where Lankum got their songs from, nor does it bother me how they sing them - that's their choice
The don't sing their songs in any folk style I am aware of which , in my opinion, makes them unrepresentative of what is happening
They are nice people, but not to my taste as singers - sorry

"it needs to pass the following tests"
I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams
Nor did I say the maelody was irrelevant any more that a canvas is irrelevant to a painting in my art analogy
The melody is very relevant - it's there to carry the song
I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely
Folky leaves me with the impression of flowery frocks
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM

"That's what Rod Stewart did with 'Wild Mountain Thyme' or Shirley Ellis did all those years ago with 'Rubber Dolly'"

Jim does this "Rubber Dolly" use the tune of "Back up and Push" which comes from one part of a ragtime Piano piece called "Creole Belles" written by J. Bodewalt Lampe ?

If so do you consider it folk? Mississippi John Hurt was one singer that used to use this melody.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:42 PM

The 'Rubber Dolly' Shirley Ellis sang was taken from one of Lomax's recordings of back kid's singing games so it certainly started life as a traditional song (can be heard on one of the Lomax CDs
The way Shirley Ellis sang it certainly didn't echo its origins but it was one heralded as a sign that folk had come into its own
im


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

Jim C, you really need to leave your dream world occasionally and accept that very occasionally you could be (heaven forbid) plain WRONG.
The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s.

It was recognised by RTE as well as the BBC or why, soon after the 'emergency' was Seamus Ennis given 'a rusty bicycle and a penny jotter'(his words) & told to head west & record what he could 'before the next wave from across the Atlantic washes it all away' (again his words). He visited Drumkeeran in Leitrim in 1948 and recorded 'Lacky' Gallagher's wonderful fiddle playing- now available in CD formfrom johnmckenna.ie, incidentally
Talk to the Mulligans of Leitrim about the state of piping in Ireland before the Pipers club was established in 1968- it was pretty desperate!
   At the time of the folk boom local communities in Ireland still had musical links to the past via such as Paddy Tunney and Willie Clancy, but that was also true of Scan Tester in Sussex and Billy Pigg in Northumberland- they both pre-date the 'folk boom'by many years.
I did expect a lost world of music on my first trip to Ireland in 1964, but my first 'ballad session' soon dispelled that idea! No wonder Luke Kelly was so impressed by the Newcastle folk club. Or maybe he & Christy are excluded from your list of acceptable musicians?
The music was also still there in Doolin- it was a community then and don't tell me today's Doolin is anything but commercially driven.- if the Russells were alive today, they'd be
be turning in their grave- I can think of no such blatant abuse of the tradition anywhere in Britain!
This is not a competition, I have great respect for many in the Irish music movement, but I have already pointed out some ways in which the British folk boom influenced Irish singers & musicians,and you don't accept ANY of the argument? I think that Irish people do not generally share your blinkered views except the few who would never admit that anything good ever came from Britain.

incidentally, with all its merits, the Willie Clancy week is in its 47th year- by the first festival (1973?) there were dozens, maybe hundreds of thriving folk clubs and several festivals with ten years behind them.....


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

"it needs to pass the following tests"
I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams
Nor did I say the maelody was irrelevant any more that a canvas is irrelevant to a painting in my art analogy
The melody is very relevant - it's there to carry the song
I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely
Folky leaves me with the impression of flowery frocks


I am happy to accept all of that, Jim. But I cannot respond to your points unless you tell us exactly what your points are. If my analysis is wrong, tell us just what your points are, else stop complaining that we are not responding.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

"The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s."


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:10 PM

???


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

""The Irish tradition was in as much trouble as the various British ones in the 60s."
No it wasn't Jim - it was exaqctly as I described
I damn well should know - we are still collecting songs in clare from singers wityh large repertoire - we had far more up to the 1990s but they're gone now
We were still collecting msongs right up to 2008
AS I said, Ireland didn't need a revival - it had the real thing to draw from - you have some of the list
Reg hall was collecting superb Irish music in London before the revival started in the early 1950s and continued to do so to the end of the century
Topic were putting out dozens of albums of supern living Irish siners and musicians
You begrudgery is typical of some of the mean-mindedness that naused you the revival
I can't believe anybody would try to talk down the incredible music played by youngsters in Ireland
The few English musicians left alive were just that - a very few
There were probably more great Irish musicians in London than there were English ones throughout the rest of Britain
The fact is taht Irish song and music is soaring while what is left of the English clubs are dying - how is Birtley doing nowadays ?
Unbelievable !!
We'll probably go out to listen to some music tonight - teh problem being that we have to choose from three sessions - Jackie Daly is playing in one and Tom McCarthy's daughter and her husband in the other
Want to name me one one-street town that's happening in the near future
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:05 PM

Reg hall was collecting superb Irish music in London before the revival started in the early 1950s and continued to do so to the end of the century

It might be a good point here to mention Reg Hall's encyclopedic study of Irish Music in London, A Few Tunes of Good Music which, amazingly, is available as a free download for all forms of e-reader. It can be downloaded by clicking here.
It is a mighty and hugeelu important read written after decades to total involvement and detailed research on The London Irish music scene - compulsory reading in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Excellent study
Many of the examples of his recordings covered in this important work can be heard on the Topic continuing series, 'The Voice of the People'; 'It Was Mighty' (3 cds) and 'It Was Great Altogether' (3 cds) - the previous generation of London Irish music at its very best
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

So, Jim, if the melody does matter, tell us how you decide if it is a suitable melody for a song in the folk idiom of not. Surely it cannot be by the "if it sounds like a folk song" method because, as we have proved in the last few hundred posts, what sounds like a folk song to some does not to others.

Just re-reading your reply of to me

I'm really not going to respond to you if you couch your postings in such language Dave - these are observations - not fifth form exams

You are defining what the folk idiom is. That is more than an observation. If you expect me to respond, I do need to be absolutely clear what your points are. As we have just shown with the point about the melody. Make clear what you are asking or stop complaining that I have not answered.

I wish you'd stop using 'folky' - it has connotations and is not what I said - 'folk style' will do nicely

No. Sorry. Folky is fine and has no such connotations as far as I am concerned.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:54 AM

the willie clancy week started in 1973,CCE was formed in 1951, for 22 years before willie clancy week, CCE WAS RESPONSIBLEFOR THE PROMOTION OF IRISH TRAD MUSIC, THE FLEADHS WERE WELL ATTENDED AND DESPITE THE COMPETITIVE FAULTS OF CCE,CCE were responsible for the growth and interest of trad irish music before willie clancy week was formed.
Jim Carroll lives in clare, which is without a doubt the strongest county for trad music kerry is also strong,north cork strong, west cork is middling and some of the other counties particulasrly in the midlands prefer country music.
jim c is genralising from the particular, irish trad music is not soaring it is strong in places and weak in others, in clare, kerry sliabh luchra, it is strong in dublin it is to some extent tourist orientated and commercialised[ does that make it strong , that is arguable] in at least half the counties country music is preferred, trad music and unaccompanied singing is tolerated because the tourists like it, that is a sad fact but perhaps it is better than it not being there at all


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM

Not replying to the begrudgers any more Dick - Ireland has done what those who are knocking it have failed miserably to do - guarantee a future based on performance and respect for traditional music
That's enough for me
Goes to prove that no matter how well you do, there's always someone on the sidelines telling you you it's not good enough
CCE destroyed more interest in traditional music with their 'competition' agenda than they won supporters - competitions are for winners
Music researcher, Brendan Breathnach summed CCE up perfectly - "An organisation with a great future behind it"

Since the Clancy School has been mentioned,   John Tunney is doing one of the talks this year;
"Sing Us Another Story", The Transmission of a local song repertoire across six generations - based on his own family's singing (Father Paddy, Grandmother Brigid, Grand Uncle Michael Gallagher - and other family singers and musicians) - well worth the trip alone
The Breathnach Memorial Lecture is 'The Trees they do be High' - reflections on Tom Munnelly's legacy
The Friday is devoted to singing workshops and recitals

Carry on knocking lads
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

Jim everyone knows that clare is the strongest place for trad music, but if it was as strong everywhere else would it not be better,here in west cork it is middling, trad songs are poular but generally people want a mix of tunes and songs, in clare and sliabh luchra, trad instrumental musdic is very popular and the standard is very high, unfortunately country and irish is strong in ireland and seems tobe relentleesly gaining in popularity


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM

It's somewhat stupid to expect muusic to be distributed equally anywhere Dick - that wasn't even true of the tradition
Some places had traditional music and song, some places had hardly any
THere are literally thousands of youngsters fairly newly arrived at the music thanks largely to the Willie Clancy Summer School being what it was - a school - many of the pupils of that school are now teaching
Of course some places develop faster than others - when has that not been the case ?
One of the greatest victories has been the smashing of the peer-pressure barrier
Fiddler Kevin Glackin once described how he had to hide his fiddle from his classmates when he was going to a CCE class for fear of being beaten up or having his instrument damaged
Even youngsters who don't play boast they have mates who do
Stop being mean-minded - the music has now been guaranteed a future   
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM

CCE destroyed more interest in traditional music with their 'competition' agenda than they won supporters - competitions are for winners
Garbage.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

"Garbage."
I wouldn't say they were that bad Dick - they did their best
Seriously - I saw kids who were forced into joining walk away from the music when they were old enough to make up their own minds
Hopefully some of them will now come back now that the music is freely available for the love of it and without the political agenda and the corruption that went with CCE
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

"Garbage."
I wouldn't say they were that bad Dick - they did their best

Not quoted from Dick but from GUEST 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM.
I am not the first to ask for posts to be read clearly before answering to avoid confusion.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

I auomatically assume that was Dick Miles - an old battlegound
I apoloogise if it wasn't but it is a fact
Go look up the 'Clontarf property-grab' fiasco
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

By the way - thanks for pointing it out Vic
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

By the way - thanks for pointing it out Vic
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

You missed the point again Jim C- I thought I'd made it clear that I am an admirer of much Irish music, and wish it nothing but the best. I have lived quietly in Ireland for 20 years on & off and have many friends among the musicians & singers of Ireland who will tell you I am no 'begrudger'- what nonsense.
You may live in a great place for music, I don't doubt it but Ireland is NOT a lost world of music- it is in isolated areas rather than EVERYWHERE as Bord Failte would have you believe!
You keep telling us about your important work- well you're English, I think, as is is Reg Hall, whose contribution to Irish music has been massive! I cannot compare my own input to that of Reg but As English people, both myself and Dick have also contributed> We're all very much part of that 'boom' & glad we were
All I am saying is that in the 50s & 60s, the music was in a bad way everywhere in these islands, and surviving in isolated places only! o
You simply ignore what is said rather than accept any input from outside- few Irish people would do that- I think I have told you what I think about the boom- it was a very valuable catalyst to the music on both sides of the Irish sea, and to be so blinkered about the state of the music in Ireland in the 50s & 60s is just daft.
as for most young Irish whizzbang groups, you're welcome, i'd rather read a book.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

2I thought I'd made it clear that I am an admirer of much Irish music, "
I didn't suggest you weren't Jim, I'm sure you are; I'm equally sure you have a distorted picture of the music scene here - I don't just rely on what is ahppening in Clare, where the music has always thrived, but our work takes us to Dublin regularly, where we are given a fuller picture from our contact with The Irish Traditional Music Archive
Actually, the music was not in a bad way in the 50s and 60s - you just had to know where to go to find it
Fra from needing to be inspired by The Folk Boom, which came and went as fast here as it did in England, there were enough musicians and singers around to make it possible to draw on them to build up the extremely healthy scene there is now and create a solid foundation, not based on 'names' but on local players and singers - The Willie Clancy School was the first such venture and shortly afterwards Nicholas Carolan worked to set up The Irish Traditional Music Archive
There was always known to be music and singing in Connemara, Donegal, Kerry, Cork and Clare and the BBC project proved conclusively that other counties still had a fair number of tradition performers to draw on - particularly in the six Northern Counties
Im told by friends that Wexford was fairly righ traditionally
Later County Louth turned out to be a'nest of singing birds'
What was missing was a guarantee that young singers would take over where the older ones left off - sorted beyond doubt now
It's hard to know what you mean by 'poor state' - Ireland didn't have a 'revival' in the same way as Britain had, so there were no clubs to judge by
Irish music, singing and storytelling was strictly a fireside activity, apart from the crossroads dances that were destroyed by the priests - that continued to happen till beyond the mid 20th century
What it boils down to is that the Irish scene is now guaranteed to last while the British one is blowing for tugs - there are several lessons to be learned there
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

I meant to add, I know hardly any "young Irish whizzbang groups" - I'm referring to the masses of solo players, particularly concertina and piping player, who are springing up like mushrooms - in their many hundreds - the ones we knew some years ago are now teaching
There are sessions a-plenty but as afr as I can make out - no groups - I don't know where that idea came from
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,im bainbridge
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:22 PM

Well that's a bit more constructive, Jim C!
I have no wish to antagonise anyone- I think the 'boom' had an important influence on the 'revival' in Ireland- there certainly was one, maybe not as in England but a revival nonetheless, and I say it was needed, even if you still think all was well..
There are lots of technically skilful young musicians in Ireland- I know several in Leitrim- some of them listen to the older* players & absorb the old ways,, some of them are aiming for commercial success & listen to agents & promoters and it shows.

* eg Michael O'Brien, Sean Gilrane, Ben Lennon & Lorraine Sweeney, a younger player who knows what it's about...….
Clare is obviously great for music, but whatever happened at Doolin?- to repeat my question in an earlier post, what about a direct answer? There is nowhere in UK where such an abomination of the music exists. For Bord Failte etc to promote it as a hotbed of traditional music is a travesty, and I shudder to think of the disappointment suffered by knowledgable European visitors?
hope you're having a happy Patrick's Day!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM

TRY THIS PRETTY REPRESENTATIVE CLIP
NOT BAD HERE ) DESPITE MY COOLNESS TOWARDS ACCORDIONS
GOOD HERE TOO
AND HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM

jim carroll, you owe me an apology , that anonymous post was not me.Iagree with youabout clontarf however not every CCE branch is like clontarf , they are as good or bad as the people organising them, for example the bantry branch is very different from the skibbereen branch. i am not being mean minded the standrad of instrumental playing and unaccompanied singing is very high, however the standard of song accompaniment is not, that is not opinion but fact, probably because the tradtion in the past hasbeen mainly unaccompanied, but tradtionshave to evolve if they do not they become moribund


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM

Dick wrote:-
jim carroll, you owe me an apology , that anonymous post was not me

but at 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM Jim wrote
I auomatically assume that was Dick Miles - an old battlegound
I apoloogise if it wasn't but it is a fact


To me this sounds like an apology to you.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM

I've already apologised Dick - accept it or forget it
The problem with CCE is that it is a monolithic Government approved organisation whose play by the rulebook to win prizes ethos tends to stultify creativity and initiative
I have the greatest respect for the teachers, but quite often they leave in depair at trying to fight the bureaucrats - I know this because of a A CLOSE FRIEND doing just that
I had the honour of being part of an offshoot of a branch of some of some of Londons best musicians (Roger Sherlock, Raymond Roland, Booby Casey... etc) which was expelled for refusing to be part of one of the leadership's schemes
The West London Traditional Music Group survived after the CCE Branches all collapsed for want of support
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM

I pointed out that the branches vary, the bantry branch runs the chief o neill festival and organises non competitive music sessions,
in my experience branches are generally [not always] left alone to their own devices [clontarf was an exception.,and so it seems was the west london branch [what year was this and what year was clontarf]
I AM GLAD THE WEST LONDON BRANCH SURVIVED, HOWEVER IT WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED IF T WAS NOT FOR CCE]despite what they did in btween in expelling.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM

Jim C states:

"Actually, the music was not in a bad way in the 50s and 60s - you just had to know where to go to find it" I believe Jim was in Liverpool and London at that time.

From postings on this thread I guess you could say the same for Folk Music in the UK today but we are constantly being told by Jim who obviously doesn't know where because he lives in another country.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Oh dear - I don't know what is happening in the UK because I no longer live there - not that old chestnut?
@Course I don't - I never visit the UK because of the vast distance, we don't have internet because we live in the middle of the West Clare desert, All by old friends and family emigrated to the moon, we never meet up with UK people who share our interests and ... most of all - I haven't got you good people to explain to me (and argue for) what's happening on the folk scene
I think, wven from a couple of threads like this, more or less what has happened to teh folk scene in Britain, especially as it started to happen two decades before I moved to Ireland
Gi'e us a break Hoot
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:21 AM

By the way Hoot, in the fifties I was in Liverpool, half way though the sixties I moved to Manchester and at the end of them, to London - I regularly visited clubs throughout Britain and associated with many fellow researchers via weekend connferences and events right up to my leaving Britain in 1999, when the rot was really beginning to set in bigtime
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM

Sorry Jim, but what you have just told us is that everything you know about the folk club scene in England is either out of date or hearsay. I am not saying you are wrong but given that the evidence of people who are still very active in English folk clubs is at odds with your second hand and pieced together information, who would an independent adjudicator believe?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

I am still active and performing in the UK AND IN IRELAND. this is my opinion, tradtional unaccompanied singing is valued more in ireland than in england, there are still a number of folk clubs in the uk that value it but they are a minority.
the instrumental side the playing of irish reels etc is a little stronger than england, but in scotland instrumental scottish music is strong.
the song accompaniment skills are much stronger in the uk, for example there are virtually no concertina accompanists other than me, yet in the uk there is steve turner, me, brian peters roy clinging john kirkpatrick and many more.the scenes are different. what needs improving in the uk is the standard of floor sinning in in some non guest singing clubs, some of it is an insult to the audience, a few of them are flaw sinners. this is not a competition between one country and the other .


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:45 AM

Where are these clubs where there are flawed sinners? I want to go there :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

"Sorry Jim, but what you have just told us is that everything you know about the folk club scene in England is either out of date or hearsay."
I've done no such thing Dave - unless you' are a travelling salesman your first hand information on other clubs is no better than mine - the internet places us where we need to be in terms of what passes for folk
You have argued passionately for a folk scene that has radiaclly moved away from traditional song proper, as have others here
If I didn't have access to what passes for "good" in folk song today, I'm more than happy to be guided by you
Please stop wiggling - you and others have told me how folky Ed Sheeran is and others have praised The Kinks to the Folk Heavens
I was inspired to start all this by an editorial written by somebody who has produced some of the finest example of traditional singing available - and can't sell them - all you have offered is excuses why the clubs are disappearing and people aren't purchasing the magnificent stuff that is available
Now you're back to telling me that none of this is really happening (when you've nearly but a gut telling my why it is) and my information is out of date
You really need to stick to your own hymn sheet
And you still haven't responded to what you ask me to repeat
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:20 AM

unless you' are a travelling salesman your first hand information on other clubs is no better than mine

Not a travelling salesman but a sales support technician that did travel all over the country until 8 years ago. But now, yes, my knowledge is of just 3 clubs and what people tell me. There are a lot more people telling me their clubs are thriving than those telling me they are dying.

I have readily admitted over and over again that the folk club scene is not perfect. Just not as bad as you make it out to be. Your selective memory is getting in the way of what was really said and, once again, I can confidently predict that you cannot find any instance of my saying "none of this is really happening".

You know very well why I have not responded to your points. See my post 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM if you have forgotten. Once you clarify what you want, I can respond. I have lost count of the number of times you have attributed the words of others to me and said one thing then said you meant something else. I am not falling for it again.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

"their clubs are thriving than those telling me they are dying. "
All 186 of them (your figures) ?
You are duckin' and divin' again
I'm not intersted that clubs whio no longer cater for folk song (as you have indicated) are "thriving
It concerns me that in many of the folk songs are no longer welcome
Sorry - we're not communicating again, just going over old graound
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

Dave
"04:53 AM"
You responded with yet more demands that I ansewer your questions -yet you continue not to answer mine - you do this often enough to show (to me at least) that they are only an excuse to avoid my points
I've made my point about the role of melody over and over again - you haave adequate enough information to respond to what I've argued - lease do so
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

Jim,

You persist in misinterpreting my point about the Kinks. I was not in any way claiming that they are "folk" per se. What I was saying was that an interpretation of one of their songs performed in a "folk style" should not be out of place in a folk club. Most club audiences, in my experience, were (and still are) sufficiently sophisticated and broad-minded to enjoy the occasional bit of fun without feeling that their enjoyment of traditional music was being compromised.

Of course if you feel that any time spent singing non-traditional songs is time wasted then that is understandable. However you have already acknowledged that some non-traditional songs are acceptable. The question then is where to draw the line, and that becomes a matter of taste and judgement for particular clubs, and their audiences. The balance has always varied between individual clubs - some were heavily traditional, others mostly contemporary, most lay somewhere in between. Traditional music has always been at the heart of what folk clubs put on, and so far as I can see that remains the case, but there has always been a place for other music provided it was complementary to trad and performed in an appropriate "folk" style. Railing against that, when it has been the case for more than half a century, seems pointless to me.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

The above post from Howard seems to be the balanced voice of reason. I certainly recognise my experience of British folk clubs as guest singer, organiser and general supporter from what he has written... and it reminded me that my first visit to a folk club when I was a schoolboy is now (gulp) sixty years ago!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:40 AM

"Of course if you feel that any time spent singing non-traditional songs is time wasted then that is understandable"
Utter nonsense - my own reperoir is about made up of around a third non traditional songs
This is distorting my position utterly- I've said from the beginning that any movement that insists on just folk songs is ploutering around a museum
You use the traditional forms to create new songs - that is what makes for homogeneous folk scene - that's what people accepted in the past without cramming other forms and styles under the umbrella
As far as the Kinks are concerned, I choose them and Dave's pop singer, Ed Sheeran becaause thaie, over accompanied, repetitive manner of singing is as far as you can get from our information communicating narrative folk function
Not one of you have attempted to explain where your preferences *which you are fully entitled to) fit in with folk song - the only feeling I get from you is lip-service patronising of its "importance", general disinterest and occasionally open hostility "wer know it's important but it's time to make room for our stuff" basically
Try doing that with any other musical form ant see how far you get
"Balanced voice of reason" tends to have come to mean "something I agree with"
Doesn't mean too much Vic
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

Since you ask, my own preference is strongly towards traditional song. When I discovered folk in my teens I became so involved that I turned away from pop music, although with hindsight I realise now that I missed out on some good music. I would say 75-80% of my song repertoire is traditional, although these days I am most active as a musician in a ceilidh band and don#t sing as often as I used to.

I have never suggested that the Kink's style of performance would be appropriate in a folk club. I was specifically describing a performance of one of their songs in the unaccompanied harmony style which has become common in folk clubs, from performers such as the Watersons, Young Tradition, Swan Arcade, Cockersdale, The Wilsons, and many more. Whether or not you like that style of singing, it is widespread on the folk scene and I stick to my view that a good song in that style is likely to be acceptable to most folk audiences, regardless of its origins.

I'm not sure we had a homogeneous folk scene, the one I was part of was extremely varied both in style and content. Not everything I heard was to my taste, but I wouldn't expect to like everything. The main unifying factor was that songs had a strong sense of structure and (usually) a clear story or message. Sometimes even pop songs can achieve that.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

Howard wrote:-
you have already acknowledged that some non-traditional songs are acceptable. The question then is where to draw the line, and that becomes a matter of taste and judgement for particular clubs, and their audiences. The balance has always varied between individual clubs - some were heavily traditional, others mostly contemporary, most lay somewhere in between. Traditional music has always been at the heart of what folk clubs put on, and so far as I can see that remains the case

Jim wrote:-
I've said from the beginning that any movement that insists on just folk songs is ploutering around a museum
You use the traditional forms to create new songs - that is what makes for homogeneous folk scene - that's what people accepted in the past without cramming other forms and styles under the umbrella.


There would seem to be little difference between these two positions despite the apparent disagreements. The contributors seem to differ only in what is acceptable and who should make that decision.

One of the greatest things about traditional song in these islands was its enormous variety; great entertainers like Jimmy MacBeath acting out a song, entrancing diva type singers like Jeannie Robertson, the wonderful controlled decoration of the great Irish singers, rasping rascally rogues like Johnny Doughty, the quiet deadpan delivery of the women singers Bob Copper recorded in the south, the power and creativity of singers as different as Gordon Hall and Davy Stewart who could and did make new verses as they went along as the mood took them. All very different and much richer for it and the folk revival should copy and develop this variety rather than aiming for a "homogeneous folk scene". The phrase makes me think of the many state-sponsored song and dance sides that the East European communist countries arranged to come to Sidmouth and other large British festivals. Technically excellent, sometimes spectacular, but predictable and dull compared with the vitality of the real village music that the likes of Bert Lloyd was recording in remote parts in those countries.


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