BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 11:57 AM

This is the last thread I will start on this subject. If those intent on shutting down any such discussion succeed in closing this one too, well done. You will have won and I hope you will be happy with that hollow victory.

To everyone else I can only repeat the previous advice. Don't troll. Don't flame bait. Don't respond to trolls and baiters. Politicians are fair game for criticism as long as it is not hateful, racist or sexist. Not that anyone in power will take notice of or even read a minority interest tiny forum. Other Mudcat members and others interested in folk music do read it though so be civil with each other.

Ok. That out of the way, let us begin.

I am quite impressed with the way Rishi Sunak comes across. Ok, I know he is a Tory and as such is probably against what I support but at least he comes across as professional and caring. I think Boris needs to watch out. Beside Sunak he looks like a 5 year old playing at being a statesman. Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:08 PM

Not just your opinion. It's mine too. And it's well worth reading Marina Hyde's Guardian article, the one that BWM referred to. It's fine to defend Johnson, but the groundswell I'm picking up on this is a general feeling that events constantly overtake him and that he's doing a very shoddy and indecisive job. That compounds the terrible damage that ten years of Toryism have done to the NHS, and that will come back to bite him in the weeks to come.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:14 PM

I agree too about Rishi Sunak. I see a PM in the making there. Hopefully very, very soon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:18 PM

And mine. I think a current article by Andrew Rawnsley is worth a read as well. Picking a couple of paragraphs out for people who don't want to read the whole thing:


For government and voters alike, this crisis is a rushed tutorial in the case for the active and well-resourced state. Only government can take the exceptional measures required to curtail human activity in the hope that it will curb the spread of infection. Only government has the capacity to effectively perform as an insurer of last resort for the huge number of companies facing extinction unless they receive state aid. Only government can provide a safety net for workers deprived of the ability to earn their living because they are ill or trying to do the right thing by isolating themselves or because their employer is in trouble.
Welfare is bad. Balance the books. It is not the role of government to bail out failing companies. All those beliefs long worshipped in the churches of conservatism are being sacrificed in the fierce urgency of the now

….

While it is far too early to make any confident predictions about the longterm ways in which this crisis will reshape society, it has already upended many of the assumptions that have governed politics here and elsewhere for decades. It is hard to believe that a once-in-a-century event will not have some once-in-a-century consequences.



The actions that Rishi Sunak is taking are in many ways things you would expect from a left-wing stable, not a right-wing, or even a centralist one.

Many predicted the death of Labour after the last election (for good or ill). It is possible that the state of politics after this will be one where, for a time at least, the old labels mean nothing, and we end up with two quite different parties to the ones we are used to. (As long as FPTP continues, it will be essentially two parties.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:28 PM

Couldn’t agree more, DMcG. Johnson is slowly becoming an irritant and an irrelevance - he certainly is not displaying the qualities we have a right to expect of a Leader.

Methinks his time is drawing to a close.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 01:29 PM

No messing about with Boris!
Clear, decisive action in response to a crisis.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-extraordinary-uk-effort-to-produce-thousands-more-ventilators-11961559

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM

Good article about how industry is pulling out the stops to produce respirators. No mention of BoJo being decisive or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

Angela Mercle has the virus, so does the wife of the Canadian PM, US Senator Rand Paul has it too. Fearless leader...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:11 PM

Who was this then? the invisible man?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/health-service-will-buy-as-many-ventilators-as-you-can-build-boris-johnson-tells-manufacturer

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:13 PM

Merkel has gone into quarantine after being informed that a doctor who administered a vaccine to her has tested positive for the Covid-19

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

If I were a tory activist..

Boris was a godsend populist front man figurehead to win an election..

I would have selected him to lead and win a tory govt in power.

Then I would have waited for the earliest inevitable opportunity to replace him with a real politician,
seriously capable of being a dependable long term prime minister...

But then Covid comes out of the blue...!!!

[..and Gove and Mogg are nowhere to be seen, quietly plotting...???]

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:35 PM

"If I were a tory activist.."
"Dumb dee diddy diddy diddy diddy dumb"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM

Jim - you beat me to it.. now you have to write that entire song...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:57 PM

't's all I know
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:59 PM

Trump's campaign song came from the UK

yu cant alwys gt what you wahnt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:00 PM

If I were a Labour activist I would be looking for a leader!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

Jim - looking at the lyrics to the original song..

They don't really need much modification..


So I'm sure it must have been done by some comic folkie sometime before...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:10 PM

Speaking from a serious standpoint..

It's much easier for folks to be a tory than a compassionate altruistic lefty...

I'm sure I wrote a degree essay about that nearly 4 decades ago...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM

Iains, the second link goes to a not found message. Regardless of that, your first link still does not mention BoJo as implied.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:52 PM

"So I'm sure it must have been done by some comic folkie sometime before.."
We can but try - 'Tis humble, but 'tis mine own

If I were a Tory activist
Dumb de diddy, dum dee diddy, dumb
I would kick Barmy Boris up the arse,
And tell Pritty Awful that her bullying's a farce
And send Creepy Cummings to The Tower

Needs work, but it's a start
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 04:31 PM

Needs a lot of work. The first line is three syllables too long.
If I was a rich man (6 syllables)
If I were a tory (also 6 syllables). The 'activist' part just doesn't fit.

I still remember some Irish scouts, at an international Scout camp in the Netherlands (1970s?) singing:
If I was a rich man,
diddle iddle iddle iddle iddle iddle iddle um
All day long I'd fiddle with me bum,
If I was a wealthy man - Hoi
Must be the folk process :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 07:45 PM

Reminds me of the Father Ted episode, repeated last night, in which Ted kicked the bishop up the erse, then had to deny it until a photo of the act was projected large on the wall of the house...bloody genius...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM

I'm afraid we have to be careful of overstepping the mark lads
At a time when the world is in lock-down and we are all worrying about our future, the moderators are, unbelievably. shutting down threads they don't approve of - what next !!!!
We'd better stick to what theey approve of or we won't be able to talk to each other and turn to our kitchen walls for diversion
Sorry for the diversion
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:32 AM

While the lefties have a fine old time writing songs disparaging the extremely popular PM (yougov poll - more popular than Maggie Thatcher)

let us study the leader of the opposition:
1)He led his party to the most crushing defeat since 1935.
2)He made the position of Boris unassailable
3)Despite almost total obliteration at the polls herefuses to reesign.
4)Despite government and medical advice to stay at home and self isolate             like all his age group, he prats around the public stage confirming the public's view of him as a clown
5)Can you imagine the complete and utter shambles that would now result had labour been elected?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM

"While the lefties have a fine old time writing songs disparaging "
The above goes to you Iains
Your continuously aggressive tone has closed more threads than it has allowed to exist
That you can continue it at a time when we are all worrying about our futures is beyond belief
Politicians have always fair game - that you should turn on your fellow posters.... goes without saying
Give it a rest, if only for the sake of allowing these discussions to continue
Jim Carroll

---

If you don't want to talk to him, Jim, ignore him. It's too much work to pull out the fighting words in these thread. Move along, there is nothing to see here. ---mudelf in isolation

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:35 AM

Beside Sunak he looks like a 5 year old playing at being a statesman.

Would it be disingenuous of me to point out 'King Boris is breeding a few of those sorts to surround himself with! Having said that - there are plenty of proto-PMs positioning themselves who we should be alarmed about. Boris is a bit of a maverick (aka turncoat) so conventional tactics tend to run off him.

Frankly he is out of his depth with COVID-19 but he has experts and his current persona gives hope that he is listening to wise counsel, for once.

Sunak looks more like a steady hand, and boy do we need it right now. Boris has struck lucky yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:45 AM

"Sunak looks more like a steady hand,"
Makes sense to me, that the US had someone similar at this time
The aggressiveness towards China by referring to this disaster as "The Chinese Epidemic, far from encouraging international co-operation, is far more likely to a minute or so to the 'Doomsday clock', which already stands 100 seconds to midnight
The Science fiction writers must be burning the midnight oil chuirning out their 'after the unthinkable happens' novels
Frightening times with a moron, a glove puppet and 'Free Russia' at the wheel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:47 AM

08:32
British rail franchise agreements suspended
The British government is effectively nationalising the state’s railways for a temporary period, it has been announced.
Rail franchise agreements are to be suspended to avoid train companies collapsing due to the coronavirus, the Department for Transport (DfT) has announced.

===

Again, a far more left wing - dare one say Corbynite? - approach than one would expect.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:53 AM

Meanwhile government medical advice is to maintain social distancing and if over 70 or vulnerable self isolate.

Corbyn(70) is wilfully ignoring this request, and following his example: Photos in papers show crowds sunning themselves blithely ignoring requests to social distance.

Someone needs to be made a public example of to enforce the rules.
In certain admnistrations they would be in jail

No social distancing means needless transmission, more strain on the NHS.

What a stunning role model the labour leader is!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM

It is the time for the birth of compassion and time for the awareness that truly, we are all in the same boat: our survival depends on taking care of each other and sharing. Some cultures have remembered this interdependency more than others. There will be no survival without it.

I can't help thinking of King Lear in the storm scene, and the hard birth of compassion when he himself is at the mercy of the elements. Yes, we are the 'poor bare forked animal' with no claws, no fur, and no way to survive without the things that we provide for each other. The essential workers, those who restock supermarket shelves, drive the provision trucks, clean, collect garbage, and otherwise ensure that we are not raving naked and hungry unprotected from nature, are the foundation of our shared existence. I would like to force Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and a large segment of other Tories and US GOP to study this speech.

Poor naked wretches, whereso'er you are,
That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your looped and windowed raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these?

Oh, I have ta'en
Too little care of this! Take physic, pomp.
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel,
That thou mayst shake the superflux to them
And show the heavens more just

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:31 AM

Wise words there, peregrina.

When it comes to sending messages, I was struck during the last PM's broadcast that whoever laid out the room did not seem to be leaving 2m between all the chairs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM

INTERESTING LESSONS
INTERESTING COMPARISON
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:50 AM

Social distancing is currently just advice, not "rules." Once it becomes "rules," then people could presumably be "thrown in jail" for breaking them. Of course, it would need to be one of those medieval dungeons so that transgressors would be isolated from other less evil prisoners such as murderers, armed robbers and terrorists...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:58 AM

I must say that I think I have seen it all now. Corbyn's fault that corvidiots are flooding parks and beaches! I tried, I really tried to be civil and reasonable but it is obviously pointless. I'm out of here.

I can only suggest that if anyone wants to discuss politics in an adult manner, then do not try to do it here. The wreckers have won. Leave them to it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:59 AM

This morning my wife said that when she went for a walk yesterday with her neighbour they kept 6 millimetres apart.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:13 AM

Social distancing is currently just advice, not "rules." Once it becomes "rules," then people could presumably be "thrown in jail"

With the transmissability of this virus being higher than the common flu social distancing can be a matter of life or death.
Legislation cannot legislate for stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

"The wreckers have won."
They always do when they are allowed to

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-bill-what-it-will-do/what-the-coronavirus-bill-will-do

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

Well you can legislate to get people away from public places. It's happening in Spain and it's happening in Italy, as photos and videos in the media of deserted streets show. And what those photos and videos show is that here in the UK the government is way behind the curve. Too little, maybe too late. A massive problem we spotted, driving through Bude yesterday, was little crowds of teenagers in close proximity. We're getting lots of "advice" about how to keep the little darlings gainfully occupied at home from the likes of cosy, middle-class Woman's Hour, etc., but many parents will just let the kids go feral unless there's a lot more clout in the approach (yes, I know it was a sunny Sunday, but the weather's good, there are seven days in the week and schools are all out). It wasn't just kids either. We need stiff rules, not warm advice, from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM

There is the suggestion that the government will amend their proposed legislation so the proposed rules have to be renewed every six months, instead of a two year sunset clause. That seems sensible to me: there seem to be few objections to the proposals themselves, but a lot of concern that they are not being kept longer than necessary.

I read somewhere that Hungary is proposing similar powers but with no sunset clause at all.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:29 AM

Just heard that, as Scotland seems to have been less effected, there's a rush to move up there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM

Why do you bother Dave the Gnome?

There never seems to be much discussion on these threads. It seems to be a person or number of persons of a somewhat left of centre and a few people of a right of centre view, arguing the toss about SFA. The general view expressed here seems to be "if you did not vote the same way as us then you are a brainwashed twat, etc etc." Let us be thankful that the majority of people in this country do not slavishly follow any particular party line.

A good while back someone asked if anyone talked about these topics in the pub? From the personas displayed here by some of you, I cannot imagine you having a chat in a pub with someone who voted differently. if I met some of you in a pub and you carried on in the same manner that you post here, I would just walk away from you EVEN if you expressed some views that I agreed with.

I did go to the pub before the close down, and I did talk to others who did not vote the same way as me. No one was harmed as a result of those conversations. With any ballot you just have to choose the one box to tick, even if you might not agree with every single thing which that party/choice might stand for.

We live in interesting times. An article that was online a good few weeks back, said that in the last election here in the UK, people might have voted for Boris but have got Corbyn instead. Just look at the last budget.

I hope that you and your families all stay well in the coming months. We all need people to remain calm and moderate in their behaviour. This morning I was outside Morrisons, which was closed until 08.00 to the general public. Once they opened the doors to us, people did not rush in, they just went about their shopping in a normal manner. Bread and milk were available but some feckers had taken all the eggs.

Stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

THEY WOULD SAY THAT, WOULDN'T THEY ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

If there is one good thing to come out of all this with apparent food shortages and delivery slots, is that we may lose a little excess weight!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM

On a Zoom video-conferencing call with young Labour Party members on Friday evening, party chairman Ian Lavery repeatedly claimed that the devastating Coronavirus crisis offered “a great opportunity” for the Labour Party to advance politically. He thought he was talking privately to activists.

    “By the way when something like this happens, we’re going to see lots of our own dying as a consequence. But, you know apart from that, it’s going to give the fantastic battalion of Labour Party members, community champions out there a great opportunity of showing how Labour, and why Labour, is best when it gets on the front foot and best when it gets people together.

    We need to make sure that we do that, and community organising what a great opportunity it’s going to give us.“

It is an understatement to say this is beyond crass, this crisis is not a partisan opportunity, it is a global tragedy.Lavery should be ashamed of himself, happily discussing the political benefits of this tragedy in private

Subject: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM

Saturday night the BBC news chided the public for ignoring social distancing advice, and going out on unnecessary trips, and failing to keep the required two metres apart.
So why did they include 'straight to camera' reports filmed in High Streets, and on Parliament Square? I assume these included the journalist, cameraman, soundman, and possibly others working closely together, outside. The reports could have been filmed in the studio, or read by the main newsreader.
Are the BBC being hypocritical in this?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:38 AM

Iains, we have a chance now to see what's important

It's more important to me, personally, today, to see what kindness I can put back into the world, whether I can stay safe and share or help others. We are all in this together. That's why I stopped back in here after years away, to acknowledge a community and place for dialogue.

When someone makes posts like yours I resort to the saying taught to me by older friends:
Consider the source.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:43 AM

I can imagine history exam questions in the future - "Compare the effect of the Corona virus with that of the 1918 flu epidemic on the world balance of power" !!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:28 AM

Making this a left-right battle is utterly (about as tupod as blaming Corbyn for overcrowded beaches, but not quite)
We criticise what is being done, those who disagree refuse to respond who speculate what Labour would have done if they were in charge
We all know which party supports a degree of equality of treatment and which favours the privileged - even those who uncritically support this lot describe demands for equal treatment a "envy politics" and compare even-handed medical treatment as "Communism" and argue that "it will not work"
So both on a practical and philosophical level - "no contest", I suggest

There is no reason to believe that reports on Cummings sidelining the elderly was not an accurate assessment of how this Government thinks - their supporters seem to have 'taken the fifth' on that one - a silence which speaks volumes

"1918 flu epidemic"
"And not just health systems were different, but also the health and living conditions of the global population. The 1918 hit a world population of which a very large share was extremely poor – large shares of the population were undernourished, in most parts of the world the populations lived in very poor health, and overcrowding, poor sanitation and low hygiene standards were common. Additionally the populations in many parts of the world were weakened by a global war. Public resources were small and many countries had just spent large shares of their resources on the war.
While most of the world is much richer and healthier now, the concern today too is that it is the poorest people that are going to be hit hardest by the COVID-19 outbreak.22"
NOTHING REALLY CHANGES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 10:07 AM

I've not watched the news yet today...

Is parliament and the Lords empty...???

How many of our MPs and Lords are 'over 70'...

Is domin.. errmm.. boris now running the country by skype from his sofa...???