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EFDSS proposed name change

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Howard Jones 16 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM
Malcolm Storey 12 Jan 22 - 09:04 AM
r.padgett 12 Jan 22 - 04:41 AM
Jeri 11 Jan 22 - 09:42 AM
Mo the caller 11 Jan 22 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 11 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM
Howard Jones 11 Jan 22 - 06:15 AM
r.padgett 11 Jan 22 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 10 Jan 22 - 08:56 PM
Malcolm Storey 09 Jan 22 - 04:48 PM
Richard Mellish 09 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM
The Sandman 08 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM
The Sandman 08 Jan 22 - 09:22 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jan 22 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 08 Jan 22 - 08:15 AM
The Sandman 08 Jan 22 - 08:07 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jan 22 - 06:52 AM
r.padgett 08 Jan 22 - 01:36 AM
GUEST 07 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM
The Sandman 07 Jan 22 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,28 Dec 21 07 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM
Howard Jones 07 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM
Howard Jones 07 Jan 22 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,28 Dec 21 07 Jan 22 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 07 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 07 Jan 22 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,matt milton 07 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM
r.padgett 07 Jan 22 - 02:29 AM
Howard Jones 06 Jan 22 - 02:34 PM
Howard Jones 06 Jan 22 - 02:28 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Jan 22 - 01:55 PM
The Sandman 06 Jan 22 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,matt milton 06 Jan 22 - 10:51 AM
Howard Jones 06 Jan 22 - 09:47 AM
The Sandman 06 Jan 22 - 09:34 AM
Steve Gardham 06 Jan 22 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,matt milton 06 Jan 22 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 06 Jan 22 - 05:04 AM
Alan Day 05 Jan 22 - 06:13 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jan 22 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 05 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM
Howard Jones 05 Jan 22 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 05 Jan 22 - 06:28 AM
Vic Smith 05 Jan 22 - 05:35 AM
Howard Jones 05 Jan 22 - 04:08 AM
Steve Gardham 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM
r.padgett 04 Jan 22 - 01:47 PM
The Sandman 04 Jan 22 - 11:51 AM
Brian Peters 04 Jan 22 - 11:43 AM
Brian Peters 04 Jan 22 - 11:23 AM
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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

The consultation has been extended to 14 February. So far it still seems to be open only to members, although they have promised they will open it to others at some point.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 09:04 AM

I repeatedly tell microsoft not to do any updates - do they listen - the hell they do!!
But thanks for your comprehensive advice Ray.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 04:41 AM

You lose membership if you change your virus protection settings or some such change ~ I lose my membership that way, ease to get it back Malcolm

Ray


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:42 AM

Somewhere, there' a browser setting, where you tell it to delete cookies upon logout, or keep them.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:23 AM

I suspect it's your computer that makes you log in after an update. I tend not to notice, till I see my posts come up as Guest


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM

Ray
I do have membership - it just keeps making me log in about once a month which is obviously a pain. I don't know if others have this problem.
Unlike Djokovic (kick him out Oz) I am fully vaccinated and boostered thank you.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:15 AM

Quoting from another thread:
"In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention."
Would EFDSS's proposed name change help or hinder?


That was in the context of attitudes towards folk music. The majority of English people have forgotten their folk traditions, and unlike the other nations of these islands don't feel these form part of their cultural identity or that they need to be maintained for that reason. The proposed name change will neither help nor hinder this, since for the majority it is a complete irrelevance. Most people neither know nor care that EFDSS even exists and have no interest in anything it does. Calling it "Folk Arts" won't change that.

So who should it matter to? The EFDSS's justification is that this is to include those of other backgrounds who, although born and brought up here, don't feel themselves to be English. However it has offered no evidence that they would feel any differently about English folk music if the name of the organisation were changed. It feels as if it is being done simply to tick a 'diversity' box.

Secondly there are the funding bodies and other arts organisations EFDSS works with. The EFDSS hasn't mentioned them so we don't know their points of view. It is very possible that they will want to see the diversity box ticked, whether or not this actually achieves anything. This might actually be the best reason for a name change, if it would help to secure future funding, but it is not one the EFDSS has put forward.

Thirdly there are all those involved in folk music who the EFDSS claims to represent, although it is difficult to see on what authority they can do this, given the tiny membership. I suspect that many of them see "English" as actually being quite important, but I guess the consultation will show if this is the case.

There's still no sign of the EFDSS engaging in any debate, despite the number of comments on its own Facebook page, for example.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:28 AM

apply for membership don't do a Djokovic

Ray


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:56 PM

Seems I have become persona non grata yet again


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:48 PM

It would be difficult to assess whether there would be any benefit from a name change - other than helping (maybe) with the begging bowl.
The cost of implementing the change would be the first thing to put in a grant application for!
I am still waiting for a reply from either the treasurer or the membership department - obviously busy?
As I predicted no one from the Society has reacted to this thread.
Hey Ho


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM

Quoting from another thread:
"In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention."
Would EFDSS's proposed name change help or hinder?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM

that should read southern English repertoire,I am Excluding NORTHUMBRIAN Repertoire from that statement


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 09:22 AM

Vic, the weakness of the style not repertoire determining folk music, lies when Cliff Richard and Peter Pears record The Water Is Wide, IMO stylistically THEY WRECK IT, but it is still a folk song.
The way that Traditional musicians transmute written pieces varies considerably, an example is IRISHFIDDLE styles.

imo the fact that Scan played Edelweiss possibly illustrates the weakness of the English TRADTIONAL INSTRUMENTAL REPERTOIRE of that time, compared to Scottish and Irish tradtional music.
The only reason I listen to other players is to listen to their musicality and enjoy their music.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:42 AM

Dick,
I was merely pointing out that many tunes that now exist in many traditions can be traced to known composers or have been adopted from other ethnic musics and changed to fit different functions - and that the majority of modern folk ethnomusicologists consider that process and adaptation are as worthy of study as origin. You obviously think differently and that is fine - except that a close observation of the way that traditional musicians transmute written pieces is an observable fact and not an opinion.
No more from me on this.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:15 AM

Well, I'm no big fan but, in defence of EFDSS:

No one flooring material is suitable for all dance forms. The group organizer and whomever is/was in charge of permitting the space should have known better from the start. If memory serves, Sharp House has (had?) a sprung pine floor. Fine for social dance but totally unsuitable for any percussive genre, eg: step, tap, flamenco &c.

Maple or hard oak is the only way to go for the right sound and durability. These days it costs a medium fortune to do it right.

Not that it matters here but, neither of the above would be optimal for the really physical stuff like ballet, urban or modern.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:07 AM

Vic, "but the changes that his playing on a C/G anglo-concertina brought by his interpretation."quote
That is your subjective opinion about his playing.,it is not a fact.
I recorded-"yesterday" and played it on a concertina ,it does not make it a folk tune, it might be a beautiful tune, That is neither here nor there, it is still a composition by Sir James Paul McCartney
Edelweiss is a composition by Richard Rodgers, That is a fact.
in theory, anyone getting paid for playing it should pay royalties, the fact that folk musicians might occasionally play composed poptunes does not suddenly make the composition a folk tune


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:52 AM

Dick wrote: -
Scan Tester played EDELWEISS, so what
What is interesting is not the fact that Scan played "Edelweiss" or "Puppet On A String" but the changes that his playing on a C/G anglo-concertina brought by his interpretation. Scan could see the potential for those tunes and they went through the process that Scan's playing brought to them. He played the keyed bugle in a militia marching band as a young msn and some of these tunes he returned to as dance polkas later in his life.
It is what happens; traditional musicians hear a tune from another genre and realise that they can consciously or consciously adapt them for their own purposes.
How many hornpipes came into the wider English repertoire from the entr'acte tunes of clog dancers with travelling theatre companies?
Why did so many Tex-Mex musicians become entranced with "The Birdy Song"?
What made the magnificent Malian balafon player, Kélétigui Diabaté, realise that he could bring something new and exciting to George Gershwin's "Summertime" to make it sound like an old Manding classic?
A Finnish waltz whose title in translation is something like "A Walk in the Woods" was taken across the Atlantic, words were put to it and several top artists recorded it in the 1950s as "Mocking Bird Hill". It came back across and was taken up as a waltz with variations in the north of Ireland.
It is what happens. The tradition becomes richer for it. We should celebrate it.

Sorry if this takes us off topic. I have just renewed my EFDSS subscription this week but if I see the organisation continue to move from being a grassroots organisation to being part of the Arts msinsteam mainly benefitting professional exponents (and I see the proposed change of name as part of this process) then I think that shall not be renewing next year.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 01:36 AM

"I have also heard a dance team has been practicing at C#house have been asked to leave as they are hurting the floor"

Floors have to be fit for purpose ~ and heavy footed cloggies and similar can cause expensive damage

Looks like EFDSS is suffering a reckoning as to who and what is and is not doing and its future existence?

I do hope that some realignment and home truths can be reached and restated!

Ray


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM

As someone who has done most things in the Folk world the EFDSS has had no input, it has always appeared to me as a London luvvie thing . We the true folkies will continue as we have done before and the what ever it call itself will slip back into obscurity . I have also heard a dance team has been practicing at C#house have been asked to leave as they are hurting the floor Don’t think you could make it up


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 12:21 PM

Scan Tester played EDELWEISS, so what, Why should i want to play it or hear it just because he played it.
whatever folk do in pubs or clubs, does not automatically make it folk music, and none of that justifies changing the name.
When I played yesterday on the concertina i did not call it folk music, when i played in a pop group and playedsmall faces sha la lee[ what dross], i did not call it folk music


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM

I didn't mean John Doonan's Irish music. He is on recordings with well known names of NE English music playing English (and probably Scottish) tunes. We hear an uncommon instrument being played in a style that borrows heavily from Ireland.

On another tack how about Scan Tester's repertoire? Quite a bit of that was from outside England. He was an English folk artist and his music was part of the the 'folk art of England' - in my book even when he was playing 'Edelweiss' at a festival session in the 60s. (I'll back off on that line before we get to folk clubs and Buddy Holly)

VWML did well on funding over the archive material, and pushing 'English Tradition' to the fore over that made sense. But what the folk do in clubs and pubs and what they listen to at concerts is wider than that but 'of England'


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM

I think 'of England' is less capable of misinterpretation than 'English'

I don't think that's right, as your mention of John Doonan illustrates. I don't know whether he thought of himself as English, Irish, Geordie, a mixture of any of those, or something else entirely, but his music was undoubtedly Irish. He played it in England, and so it could be said to be "of England", but it would be a brave person who claimed it to be English music.

There is a large Irish community in most parts of English which vigorously promotes its own musical culture. There are many other communities with their own traditions, which could also be said to be "of England".

EFDSS has never confined itself only to English music and neither has the wider folk scene. That's one thing, claiming to be the custodian of all the folk music "of England" (as one of the survey questions suggests) is quite another.

Perhaps this too is a pedantic interpretation, but it shows that the meaning of both phrases is unclear. The problem is that, however you interpret it, Englishness is at the core of EFDSS's purpose, and it is tying itself in knots trying to avoid saying this.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 07:41 AM

I am confused as to why there are people uncomfortable with the term "English".

EFDSS claims that there is "incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word 'English' " but they haven't shown us that evidence. They have apparently carried out a survey, but haven't shared the results with the members, who are supposed to simply accept this.

The single response they have published says "Having grown up being continually told 'I am not English' by white people ... I find the word problematic ... there is a tacit association of 'Englishness' with 'Whiteness..." (They say this is one of several similar comments)

I don't question that, but I think it's the wrong context for this particular question. Does it apply to concepts such as English food, and if not why should it apply to the concept of English folk music? Even if the Society changes its name, will that make English folk music more attractive to someone who feels like this about their personal identity? How can the Society, whatever it calls itself, promote English folk music without using the term 'English'?

In the survey, the questions about "English and England" to me seem to be about this idea of and English personal identity, rather than its meaning to describe English folk.

It also asks whether "Folk Arts England" suggests it is the "custodians of all the traditions of folk music song and dance in England", which raises the question whether it intends to reduce its focus on English folk to include the traditions of other cultures now living in England.

EFDSS has promised to open the consultation to non-members in the New Year, when you will be able to see for yourselves.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 07:00 AM

I think using 'Folk Arts England' helps carry the meaning 'of England' rather than 'English'.

It's more obviously related to a geographic or administrative region. So from a cultural perspective, for example, music of NE England is 'of England' even though it may have strong influences from over the border and include players such as John Doonan. In any specific context stylistic elements that might be regarded as 'Scottish', 'Irish' or English' could be discussed using those terms.

This post is itself pedantic but I think 'of England' is less capable of misinterpretation than 'English' or being misused by some wavers of the St George's flag.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

Matt
It will give you access to all the journals back to 1899, apart from the last few (2or 3?). The access is via JSTOR.
Derek


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 06:01 AM

I am confused as to why there are people uncomfortable with the term "English".

Is it that they find the term too confining, wanting to include music from further afield or from recent additions to our diverse cultures?

Is it that they find it too wide a description and want to limit it to some geographic or historic restriction?

England is certainly not a single culture to anything like the same extent as Scotland or Wales. Is this the problem?

Can we find a common ground that resolves these questions?

Robin


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM

One unexpected consequence of this whole discussion is that I am considering joining.
Mainly because I hadn't known that membership gave you digital access to past editions of Folk Music Journal?

Does anyone (Steve?) know how many past editions are accessible? Is it a lot or just a select few? If membership allows me to browse hundreds of articles going back over decades then that for me is a worthwhile reason.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 02:29 AM

" Perhaps there is an implied threat to funding if they don't, but in that case they should come out with it." I agree with Howard here


Whilst it is true that H&S issues on PLI have it seems changed certainly for festivals, many folk clubs are held in small pub rooms, whilst accepting that concert clubs will have perhaps their own PLI?

I think most importantly we have to accept pub rooms rented have relied on the pub PLI ~ sometimes scams can and have happened, fake claims to accidents (at dances for example) have occurred for injury, but many are quite legitimate ~ no insurance end of dances etc

Ray


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:34 PM

Whilst I don't condone needless title changing, if it helps to keep EFDSS in funding then perhaps a necessary evil?

If that is the case, then perhaps it is. However that's not an argument being put forward. The reason for the name change seems to be to increase diversity and accessibility for those who are uncomfortable with the term "English". Perhaps there is an implied threat to funding if they don't, but in that case they should come out with it.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:28 PM

It's never occurred to me to even think about insurance or GDPR and it's never stopped me doing all those things.

You've confirmed my point. I suspect you're far from being the only organiser who's never thought about these things. When you organise an event, no matter how small and informal, you take on some responsibilities and liabilities, and yet the national organisation for folk dance and song doesn't even mention this.

It is advisable to have public liability insurance, not because a venue asks for it but because if someone were to be injured at an event you organise then you could be held liable (if you're a member of EFDSS you already have PLI).

EFDSS has a membership problem, with only around 2200 individual members. I suspect it has become an organisation for dispensing funding given by other bodies, which probably explains its current direction. In many respects it's become an irrelevance to most people in the folk world, and yet it is the only national body for folk music, and like it or not it speaks on our behalf. Most importantly, it is the custodian of the Library, and even those of us who've nver used it have benefited from the work there of others. That is why I think what it does and what it calls itself should be of interest to the whole folk community, and not just the tiny handful of members.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 01:55 PM

Matt and Howard make very good points. However, some of us need a strong central point, if only to maintain the library and website. That means accepting that any serious funding is going to come from heritage and arts foundations, and therefore we need the right people who can tap into this. This seems to be what is happening even in these restricted times. Having been a volunteer at a small museum recently that went into liquidation with the loss of important local heritage, I am all too aware of how important funding is. Whilst I don't condone needless title changing, if it helps to keep EFDSS in funding then perhaps a necessary evil?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 12:23 PM

very good points, Matt, i suppose keeping it going for another 10 years is better than not


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 10:51 AM

But this is the thing though - it's accused of being Londoncentric but I don't think people would join even if it started putting on events or workshops in Birmingham or Sheffield.

I'm not saying this as a staunch defender of the EFDSS either. I'm a Londoner myself, I have been to quite a few gigs at Cecil Sharp House over the years, I did the Saturday morning banjo courses they still teach, I used to enjoy especially going to the annual christmas shindig... but I've never joined and frankly it's never occurred to me to do so.

I've also organised loads of gigs in pub function rooms, church halls and community centres over the years. It's never occurred to me to even think about insurance or GDPR and it's never stopped me doing all those things. funnily enough the only time I've ever had to think about Public Liability Insurance was... when I enquired about hiring the bar of Cecil Sharp House!

It was a stipulation of the hire I had to have it. Literally the only venue in London that ever asked me that. So I didn't bother, went somewhere else.

My point is not that the EFDSS abandoned the grassroots, it's that the grassroots doesn't really need the EFDSS. I'm in London, I go to some EFDSS events, but even I don't really need them as such - I've never been a member, and treat gigs at Cecil Sharp House much like gigs anywhere else.

I suppose, in other words, I can't really see the EFDSS lasting all that much longer - unless it gets a decent amount of funding. The grassroots scene being mentioned in this thread is by and large pretty old, it's not unfair to say. Even if a large number of 60 and 70somethings from outside London suddenly all joined the EFDSS en masse, that would only help the EFDSS for another 10 years or so.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:47 AM

Matt, in one sense you're right. I'm one of the 1970s generation of folkies who the EFDSS turned its back on. For more than 50 years I've been involved as a singer and musician in folk clubs, ceilidhs, sessions and festivals, and I also help to run a regular series of dances; the EFDSS has had no involvement in any of these, and if it were to disappear overnight it wouldn't make any difference to me or my musical activities.

Nevertheless, it could do a lot more to provide the club infrastructure with advice and guidance. There is nothing on the EFDSS website which offers any advice on how to run a folk song or dance club. Back in the 1970s someone would hire the back room of a pub and advertise a club, but these days we have to be far more conscious of health and safety, data protection, licensing and copyright and a host of other stuff. I wonder how many folk clubs have public liability insurance, or are even aware that they might need it?

Of course you can now find information on the internet, but it is often aimed at businesses and it can be surprisingly difficult to find it in a digestible form which is appropriate for small voluntary community organisations.

First of all you need to know what you should look for. For example the General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) affect all organisations which hold personal data, including voluntary and community organisations. Any club which keeps a list of members, or has a mailing list, must comply. One (non-music) organisation I am involved with drew this to the attention of its associated clubs and advised them what to do. The EFDSS has nothing, and when I emailed them for help I was ignored. I suspect there may be quite a few clubs out there whose organisers didn't learn about GDPR from other sources and which are not compliant with it.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:34 AM

if we look at the dance side of the society, they may have missed opportunities in the past, for example when the morris ring was actively against women morris dancers, did they show women morris dancers support? a question not a statement,
have they shown trans genders who wish to dance morris supprt?
I am more actively involved in song and lived in ireland for 31 years, so am out of touch with the dance side of EFDSS


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:10 AM

This has always been a major problem. The London-centric society, even when I first joined in the 60s, found it very hard to connect with the grass roots, particularly song. I was very lucky to belong to a folk club that had a full set of the Journals and was a member as a club. We also had a very enthusiastic dance-based regional officer based in the city who encouraged what we did and initially got our dance teams off the ground. At its height the club ran a once a week folk club, workshops, mummers team, sword, morris, clog, country dance teams, dance bands, and a folk show that went out into surrounding villages. We had catalysts who kept everything together and we were almost all in our early 20s and fully involved. However, as these 20-year olds got married and had families they tended to specialise more, still staying involved, but along with the dying off of the older members and this the scene in our area had a tendency to fragment.

Apart from the few older dancers I am probably the only EFDSS member left in the city. Although helping to hold together a local folk scene I couldn't contemplate trying to convince any of our teams to become members now. As Matt says, why would they, especially in the deteriorating economic climate?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:25 AM

" At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk"

But does that amateur grassroots level even need a society? I'm interested in what specific activities the EFDSS could do that would actually make those people think 'well, seeing as they're doing this I'll join up".

I suspect that a lot of those folkies are happy to go to singarounds and gigs at their local folk club, and they don't really need to join a society to do that.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:04 AM

Steve ... to be fair, The Full English does appear on the VWML website, here: www.vwml.org/projects Some digitisation (Take 6) appeared before The Full English, and some (Carpenter collection, I think) appeared after the project. Some of the resources that were digitised as part of TFE have not yet been placed online, sadly...
Derek


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:13 PM

I went to the very first and many of the subsequent meetings of EFDSS and I found that it was a pleasant get together of musicians playing tunes and singing songs that formed friendships that have lasted a lifetime. From those early days many of us have branched into other types of music and there has been a cross over of styles , but I have never been approached by anyone to say "Excuse me this is not English". I must admit to running the first Euro Session at an EFDSS meeting and it was a full house and others have introduced these sessions to other festivals. In no way would I want to lose the English Traditional music that started me off in the folk Scene, but if rules " Only English music playing " were enforced and or other rules then it would spoil all of what has been achieved since this organisation started. My vote would be to leave it exactly as it is with the flexibility that we have all enjoyed.
Al


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:40 AM

Nicely put, Howard.

Derek, I too was very happy with the title 'Full English'. Again it did what it said on the tin. Then all of a sudden when a new batch of manuscripts/broadsides came online which I was involved in they decided 'The Full English' was to be dropped, after successfully marketing it. I couldn't tell you what it is now called. Not even sure if the organisers know. VWML Online? is not quite the business, if that's what it is. However, a magnificent resource.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

Can't disagree with you there Howard.
Derek


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:01 AM

I'm happy to be corrected on that, Derek. I don't think it alters my underlying point, which was that having staff members and trustees who are familiar with the workings of the mainstream arts world has probably helped the Society to tap into sources of funding such as this, where you have to speak the language and tick the right boxes to be successful. I'm happy to give them credit for that. At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:28 AM

I've been lurking! Reading almost all of these posts on a daily basis. There have been some good posts, and in particular I would commend the re-reading of posts by Howard Jones on 30 December 2.28 and 2.54. On 1 Jan 5.22 (but see below) and 3 Jan at 10.03. He seems to have got the measure of it. Just one minor correction. The Full English was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund, not the Arts Council. HLF thought The Full English title of the project was excellent.
Derek


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:35 AM

Good post by Steve Gardham 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM I find myself in agreement with it.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 04:08 AM

Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

As I've said before, the consultation seems to be slanted to support a decision which has already been made. Not only is there no opportunity to vote on the suggested names, the questions about "Englishness" (which seems to underlie the reasons for the change) don't seem to refer to it in the relevant context.

This sort of approach to "consultation" is not unusual, but it is disappointing.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

Changing the name of a long-established organisation is always going to be problematic. I wonder how many of us long-standing members (no cracks please!) have actually thought for one second that the name needed changing. I do hope they consider all the pitfalls before making any changes. I filled in my form and voted for no change on the grounds that I could not think of a good reason for doing so. If it does what it says on the tin leave it alone. If I'm discussing with folkies I'll say Effdus. If with non folkies I'll use the full title happily. All an improvement on the 'Dingdong Society' which we used disparagingly in the 70s.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:47 PM

The discussion is continued of fb ~ hope I haven't offended anyone by pinching posts

I have come to the conclusion that EFDSS is the only option ~ it is in my mind like a Professional body for all outside of London ~ major asset is VWML

Folk Arts England says nothing and totally disregards the goodwill built up over the years of its existence and joining with folk song and dance societies

Ray

What the EFDSS has planned in the future is the most important factor ~leave the name alone, please!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:51 AM

Very Poor


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:43 AM

Getting back to the topic, I've just filled in the EFDSS form. To my amazement, when I got to the page discussing the various alternative names (including retaining EFDSS), there was no opportunity to express a preference - just a list of the most popular names as voted for by a panel of 65 persons the selection criteria for which was not explained. Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:23 AM

'GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM - PM'

A bit of a cumbersome moniker, 'Guest...'. Most of us here find our actual names more convenient. However...

'Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind?'

Clearly not, if Cecil Sharp's piano arrangements are anything to go by. 'In their original forms' was presumably meant to refer to the core material, rather than forbidding contemporary arrangements of it; some would say that the core material was being altered as well, though I'd say the second Revival did far more of that than the first.

There is, however, a potential contradiction between the 'original forms' clause and the emphasis on 'new work' apparently demanded by arts funding organisations. That doesn't mean that new work shouldn't be encouraged, but there remains a question of the extent to which it should be expected to conform to the musical conventions of the 'original forms', and by what criteria conformity should be judged.

In a recent discussion of 'authenticity' I asked whether we should regard as 'more authentic' the Copper Family's rendition of 'Shepherd of the Downs', or a pleasure garden re-enactment orchestra performing 'The Shepherd Adonis' - the song's original form. Answer came there none.


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