EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:00 AM

Those who are members of the English Folk Dance and Song Society or who follow it on social media will be aware that is is considering changing its name. It is currently consulting the members, and will throw it open to all in the New Year.

The reasons given are set out on its website
A consultation about our name

There was a Mudcat discussion on this topic nearly 10 years ago:
Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo

The proposed alternative is "Folk Arts England". I must admit I don't like the term "folk arts" which doesn't immediately make me think of music or dance. It is already being abbreviated on social media to "FARTS" so we'll see whether it lasts.

I am concerned that it wants to drop the word "English". The negative examples it gives are all to do with people's sense of personal identity, but I struggle to see how it can promote English folk music without using the word. What hope have we of standing up for English culture if the organisation which exists to promote it is embarrassed by it?

I can understand that the name feels a bit old-fashioned, but it does encapsulate its purpose as set out in its charitable objects, which is "to preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music". Note the "English".

I can't help but feel that the EFDSS should be more concerned by its utter failure to engage with the majority of people involved with folk music. Currently it only has around 2000 individual members, and seems to concentrate on professional artist development rather than the grass roots. It is often criticised for being London-centric. It seems to me it should first be taking a hard look at what it should be doing, and only then can it choose a name which reflects that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: matt milton
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:57 AM

I think the silly 'abbreviation' to FARTS by some people is neither here nor there: it's a contrivance rather than abbreviation (which would more commonly be 'FAE') by people who clearly want to find fault.
That's a distraction to the main points here.

I actually support the move towards 'England' rather than 'English' in the name change. There's a nuance here: it's a subtle nuance but it's an important one. 'England' foregrounds physical geography in a way that 'English' does not. Remember that this is a branding exercise - the name of an organisation does not have to sum up everything about it (eg Ceoltas, which in isolation doesn't tell you anything about the function of that organisation).

I don't think EFDSS is proposing to replace every instance of the word 'English' with 'of England': just in the name.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:27 AM

The current EFDSS 'brand' rates about 0.0036% market share, assuming they're all English of course. I'm fairly certain the board is smart enough to know their 'Society,' by any other name, will remain utterly, thoroughly and completely... meaningless to the vast majority of the population, and even to many people who already enjoy folk music and dance.

It's a standard, garden variety environmental, social and corporate governance (ESG) overhaul. So not directly related to song, dance and/or music of any kind.

Either way somebody gets 'excluded' or offended and roughly 27.999 out of 28.000 Englandishers will continue to not care who, which or why.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:41 AM

I think that nuance is significant. Does it see its purpose as promoting English folk music, ie the folk tradition native to England, or is it trying to stake a claim to all folk music performed in England, from any culture or background?

Both are respectable objectives. Its charitable objects include "to preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music" When you look at what we mean by "Irish folk music" or "Scottish folk music" it seems reasonable to interpret "English folk music" to mean the native folk traditions of England. (I realise that no tradition exists in isolation, so let's not get diverted by what is "English folk music", you know what I mean).

The inclusion of "other folk music" allows it to extend its scope beyond this. However I wonder how some other communities might feel about EFDSS/Folk Arts England claiming to represent their music?

This is all part of what I mean about deciding on a direction before choosing a name. Of course a name can't encapsulate everything, but it should try to convey its main activities.

I fear FARTS may stick, no matter how hard they try to insist on another abbreviation. DEAFASS (the Dance Earnestly and Forget About Song Society) is still about more than 40 years after Lawrence Heath coined it, and long after it ceased to be a fair criticism. Remember that the majority of folkies are not members, find it of little relevance to them, and are very ready to find fault.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:45 AM

Matt Milton
But does the organistion have a function?other than making itself look ridiculous

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:58 AM

I doubt if its reduction in membership is anything to do with its name. SO WHY CHANGE THE NAME.
If a football team keeps losing matches, is it the fault of its name ,no it is the fault of how it is being run, the same applies to this organisation, it keeps losing members, why? calling it folk arts or anything else, is not the root of its problem, the root of the problem is possibly poor management, not the name

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 10:19 AM

I have commented on this in the "is folk a dirty word" thread but will rerun the stuff if it helps.

Dick is spot on.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 10:29 AM

Phil, I am familiar with the concept of ESG. It should be a tool to help organisations improve their services and recognise their wider role in society. It should not be the tail wagging the dog.

Of course we know folk music is of no interest to the majority of the population, to whom the EFDSS under any name will be entirely irrelevant. The Board should be more concerned that it is of little interest or relevance even to those who are involved with folk. The individual membership at 31 March 2020 stood at only 2202, which is simply pathetic.

I've been involved in folk music for 50 years, as a singer, a morris dancer, a ceilidh band musician, and an events organiser. In all that time the EFDSS has been entirely irrelevant to me, and if it were to disappear tomorrow it would not make the slightest difference to any of my musical activities. A straw poll of my friends showed that many feel the same, and those who are members often only do it to support the Library. Despite that, I am glad that there is an organisation which tries to encourage what I love, I just wish it did it better and that it did more to support grass-roots folk beyond Camden.

I agree that the current name may be a bit old-fashioned, although I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I don't think "Folk Arts England" conveys folk music (although some of the alternatives they considered are worse) and suggests a direction even further away from the folk music I am involved with.

I'm not campaigning one way or the other. People look out for the consultation when it goes public and make their views known.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 10:58 AM

Malcolm, they have at least assured us that "folk" is not up for negotiation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

Posting 1 to t'other thread

It has actually become a dirty word at the EFDSS (English Folk Dance & Song Society) along with English (very dirty) and Society (smutty) according to the clowns employed to run it.
Sensible questions addressed to "Officers" are ignored and it would be easier to get answers from the Government spooks than anyone at Cecil Sharp (remember him?) House - no doubt soon to be renamed 37 whatever street it is on.

Posting 2 to t'other thread

Here are some snippets of correspondence with a concerned friend - no name no pack drill.

Me
So now to the latest rubbish to arrive from the front!
 
The so called questionnaire / survey must have been put together by an eight year old with learning difficulties!!
What a mess.
 
I note "they" are taking this forward on the strength of initial responses from 65 (SIXTY FIVE) persons - that's almost one in a million of the UK population. Impressive what?
 
What does the current treasurer think of the idea of throwing money away?
 
Before any decisions are made on this issue it would be far more important to look at the current staff appointments, their salaries and most importantly their responsibilities. I have a feeling there is a lot of dead wood - including those at the top.
 
WE ARE NOT A SECRET SOCIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
As I say above a cull is needed.


Part of reply

I've had the questionnaire, but not yet opened up .... I've seen enough Facebook messages, including from a professional statistician, rubbishing the structure to convince me that I need to be calm before I open it.

Me

Another point I made was that at the time I joined the Society they/we were pushing to attain a membership of 10,000.
The staff structure at the time including field staff was less than the current numbers.
They also did not have the benefit of computers etc to aid the running of the Society.

Membership now stands at less than 2000 (there's progress) and yet seems to cost in real terms a hell of a lot more to administer.

Lot's to think about when the body which purports to represent our interests in a culture we all supposedly treasure is in the hands of these people.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 11:32 AM

The questionnaire does seem to be designed to produce the answer they want. There is no opportunity to vote on the name itself, although you can add comments.

I think the survey they did on "Englishness" was misguided and asked the wrong questions. The answers are all about people's sense of self-identity. However whether or not one enjoys a genre of music is primarily an aesthetic choice. It may help to feel a personal connection with it, but it is not necessary in order to enjoy it. English music is played around the world, often by people with no connections with England. There are morris teams overseas, and they are not all English ex-pats. Somewhere on Youtube is a video of an English music session in Japan, with Japanese musicians.

This is even more true of Irish music, which has a strong following all round the world (also including Japan), well beyond the Irish diaspora. Back home, I know English musicians who play Cajun and Zydeco, klezmer, French and Scandinavian music who have no connections to any of them. It's just music. Do you have to be German to enjoy Bach?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:03 PM

Howard: Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Forget the dog... it's all about the kibble.

Institutional/academic folk relies on institutional/academic consumers. The ESG is a box someone's supervisor has to tick off before they approve payment of the membership fees &c. Likely does not know folk from fly speck and does not care.

No ESG? That's racist. The mandatory/automatic response is boycott, divest and sanction (BDS.) ie: Cancel perhaps the majority of the few remaining subscriptions.

If you're this far along, anybody at EFDSS who disagreed with the process has long since been handed their hat and shown the door in like fashion.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:29 AM

English ~ Yes, Folk ~ of the people, Dance ~ yes, Song ~ yes, Society ~ yes so

So EFDSS ~ yes

Folk Arts? what does that instantly convey? Nothing really could be owt

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

perhaps EFDSS instead of worrying about their name ,might consider how to increase membership by making joining more enticing., what else can they offer etc, at the moment they offer limited insurance for folk events in the uk,can they make that international?
they need to look at their business model, they need more income, and less outgoings.
Does Chnging the name provide more income, no it will just incur costs

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:49 AM

I suspect that at least part of the motivation behind this is a desire to be taken seriously by the grown-up arts establishment they seem desperate to be a part of. And, to be fair, the current team under Katy Spicer have been very successful in getting funding from the Arts Council. The digitisation of the Library is a significant achievement, so hats off there.

"English Folk Dance and Song Society" just isn't a very cool name. My difficulty (and perhaps it's just me) is that "folk arts" isn't a term I relate to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:22 AM

some information for organisers.
To Whom It May Concern
28th September 2021
PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE CERTIFICATE
Valid only if shown with proof of EFDSS membership or affiliation
The Assured: Individual Members of the Society and Affiliated Groups whilst undertaking
activities as notified to the Society, e.g Caller, Folk Club etc
Period of Insurance: 12 months from 31st December 2020
Interest: Insurers will indemnify the Assured against their legal liability for damage,
death, disease or bodily injury up to the indemnity limit hereon in
accordance with the terms, conditions and exceptions of the Policy Wording
Indemnity Limit: £5,000,000 any one occurrence and unlimited in the period. There is an
Excess of £100 each and every claim
Territorial Limits: Anywhere in the United Kingdom or Europe but subject to UK Jurisdiction
i.e litigation can only be brought within a Court of Law within the UK
Insurers: Ansvar Insurance
Policy Number: CCP 2334031
Notes: Please note the policy does not cover hazardous activities or pursuits,
e.g the use of fireworks. The policy does not cover events where the
attendance is expected to be in excess of 500 persons.
For further clarity, or in the event of any incident, please contact the brokers: Neil Corrie at
Bryan James & Co Ltd – 01942 603196 – [e-mail]
Yours faithfully
Neil Corrie
Neil Corrie
Bryan James & Co Ltd
[e-mail]
www.bryanjames.co.uk
Authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority
Registered Office: 312 High Street, Harlington, Hayes, Middlesex UB3 5BT Registered Number: 1758910(UK) – Financial Services
Number 303240
Lowton Business Centre
Lowton Business Park
Newton Road
Lowton
Warrington
WA3 2AN
Telephone [phone]


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Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:38 AM

The scourge of winkie wankie wokies.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:52 AM

The EFDSS was originally formed when two separate organizations, The Folk Song Society and the English Folk Dance Society, united as one organization. The Folk Song Society never limited itself to just publishing English songs. The amalgamation occurred because the Board of the Folk Song Society believed that its members had collected all the folk songs that were then being sung. And, although the Dance side of things used the term 'English', they were quite happy for its members to publish books and articles relating to dance traditions from other countries.

So, do I like 'Folk Arts England'. No I don't. It is too parochial.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:58 AM

not to mention meaningless.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:04 AM

From what I've heard (insider information!) the name change is largely about receiving funding: something that will demonstrate inclusivity and sound a bit more 21st century. So it really doesn't matter what the name is.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:10 AM

Perhaps FAE could have two different branches, dealing with contemporary and traditional. They would be known as "New Farts" and ....

Oh well

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:49 AM

That one pressed my buttons Peter

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:51 AM

If it is indeed about receiving funding (which supports Phil d'Conch's view that this is an ESG box-ticking exercise) then they might get more support by saying so.

Another organisation I am involved with is going through much pain and anguish trying to bring in improved governance structures in order to continue to receive funding - there is still much debate but it least the reasons are clear and explicit.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:55 AM

Some years ago I read that a police force in southern England decided to set up two 'Fast Action Response Teams'. Apparently the higher-ups liked the idea, that is until somebody realized that the teams would be commonly known as 'Fart 1' and 'Fart 2'. The idea was quickly dropped.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 10:31 AM

Oh dear,I should miss being able to call it,The English Ping Pong and Prance Society.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 10:52 AM

I agree with the OP and much of the subsequent discussion, particularly that there are more important matters that EFDSS should be addressing itself to, and that "Folk Arts England" fails to identify that the organisation is concerned with dance, song and music rather than, for example, painting and theatre. (Though maybe mummers plays count as Folk Theatre?) Also in there, perhaps inevitably, is the issue of what "Folk" means. EFDSS seems to think it's at least as much, if not more, about sponsoring new material as about traditional material.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:37 AM

I don't trust anything that contains the label "Arts".

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:38 AM

As I see it the EFDSS has three quite distinct functions:

1) A learned society for the preservation and study of English folk music, which chiefly means the Library and the Journal, and a programme of lectures

2) To promote folk music as an art form, which it does mainly through professional artist development and various projects and collaborations

3) To support "grass roots folk" which possibly includes its education activities (although this could be seen as a separate function). This is where it is weakest, it doesn't seem to offer much apart from the activities at C# House. If you're outside London, forget it.

Among those friends I've asked about this, they attach most value to 1 and 3, although they don't feel their own grass roots activities get much support. EFDSS itself seems to put most emphasis on 2. This is possibly why it is failing to attract members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 12:06 PM

As an intrusive outsider, let me put ni my two cents.

"English" in this context might mean several different but perhaps overlapping things.

It might mean a Society interested in folksong and dance but made up of only English people.

Or a non-restrictive FS & D society based in England. (As I've always interpreted it.)

Or a society devoted solely to English FS & D.

(And for added interest, recall that at the time of its organization, "England" was in frequent use - in England and the U.S. at least - as a synechdochal synonym for "Britain.")

So perhaps the Society should keep its name, while attending to any aspects of FS & D its members prefer.

Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 12:54 PM

So far:
The ESG is mandatory for existing and future instutional/academic funding.

The cancel culture-ESG-BSD movement in general is no more interested in 'folk' or 'English' anything than your average 1:28.000 consumer. A bit less is more than likely.

At the end of the exercise, the EFDSS will not have addressed the root cause of its problem: too few consumers, of any stripe, know or care about the product.

Marketing will address awareness but unless management accepts the feedback... the product remains the same. Either EFDSS will end up doing the same thing to 'Englandish Folk Art Song & Dance' whatever the British Council did to 'preserve' Jamaican Folk way back when: change it up to something completely different to make it 'accessible' to a wider, commercially viable consumer base... or give it up entirely and just walk away.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 01:28 PM

Deja view... you've been here before but...

The British Council's number one function today is managing the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) which many in the ESG movement consider a modern form of the 1930s fascism the Council was founded to oppose in the firstest place.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 02:42 PM

Although born in Northern Ireland of English parents. I am, since Brexit, more inclined to think of myself as Irish. I am a long time member of EFDSS, I was also a committee member of the now ceased Folk Music Society of Ireland. That Society asserted its Irishness but did not, and nor did its name, preclude it from interest in any other folk music, indeed among its publications was a cassette of French songs.
I favour that EFDSS should change its name to The Folk Song and Dance Society of England - EFDSS has never confined itself to dance and song, folk plays and folk art have always been seen, as they are, indivisible from dance and song. The catch-all Folk Arts is pretty meaningless. And, yes, the challenge is marketing but, since the present name of the Society is seen as an impediment to wider acceptance in the communities, it's a start. The other debate is for another thread.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 03:27 PM

Sounds right enough to me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:44 PM

They will either be awarded a grant or they won't, I can't believe the name makes any difference at all.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: RTim
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:05 PM

It is interesting that the EFDSS are only talking about changing the Societies name (I am a member by the way)......and Not changing the name of the Headquarters....ie. Cecil Sharp House.

Here in the USA - particularly at Pinewoods Camp - they are contemplating changing the name of two of the dance pavilions from C# and C#Minor....(to me) a clever way to remember Cecil Sharp, who collected many of the traditions celebrated at camp.

The reasons they are looking to change is because some people think Sharp was a Misogynist and ignored "Black" music while collecting in the Appalachian Mountains.

Personally, I do not agree with these sentiments. I believe he was just a man of his times, and without him we would have lost many songs, dances and traditions...

WE will see what will happen in both cases....and what else would you call them..??

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:41 PM

Well Mouldy (as known to friends) has probably come up with an acceptable new name that might tick all those boxes.
Ignoring "the" & "and" it would only use the same five initials
FSDSE = EFDSS.

Incidentally I have an EFDS badge kindly given to me by a lady dancer as a thank you for my involvement in Whitby Folk Week especially the safeguarding of the dance element.

The added "S" in the depths of the thirties depression did little to cause any added costs, but of course the Society was financed in a much different way in those days and certainly had no problems over the word English - which is what I consider myself.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:13 PM

Thanks, Malcolm, for blowing my cover.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:33 PM

Any time old chum - keep safe and well!

I'll get you a drink the next time we are in a bar together.

I missed "of" by the way - hope no one notices.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 06:37 AM

What are the benefits to folk singers of joining the EFDSS or whatever it's going to be called? Especially those who are not in London often enough to make use of the facilities at C# House?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 06:40 AM

"some information for organisers.
To Whom It May Concern
28th September 2021
PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE CERTIFICATE
Valid only if shown with proof of EFDSS membership or affiliation
The Assured: Individual Members of the Society and Affiliated Groups whilst undertaking
activities as notified to the Society, e.g Caller, Folk Club etc
Period of Insurance: 12 months from 31st December 2020
Interest: Insurers will indemnify the Assured against their legal liability for damage,
death, disease or bodily injury up to the indemnity limit hereon in
accordance with the terms, conditions and exceptions of the Policy Wording
Indemnity Limit: £5,000,000 any one occurrence and unlimited in the period. There is an ~~~ as above"

Do I take it that now I have renewed my membership that I have Public liability insurance? Do I need anything else or will it be sent to me? (if needed?)

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 07:26 AM

you need to contact the insurers, but as i understand it your efdss membership will cover you for running an event that does not have more than 500 attendance

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 01:38 PM

The minimal benefits of membership are three issues of English Dance & song and the annual Folk Music Journal; insurance for events involving fewer than 500 people that fall within the Society's Aims and the provisions of the Policy and within geographical limits; plus use of the Library, including certain loans by post, and concessionary entrance to some events - and it's not just London based. There is also Halsworth Manor and activities there. In my case, living in Ireland, I am prepared through my subscription to maintain the building and its facilities and am sure of a welcome when I can get there.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 03:16 PM

"Halsworth Manor". Is that Halsway Manor? What is the relationship between EFDSS and Halsway Manor?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 05:16 PM

I didn't think that there was any connection between the two appart from the fact that prominant EFDSS members such as Bill Rutter were instrumntal in establishing the Halsway Manor Society.

In my journalistic days I used to receive EFDSS press releases. The claim that EFDSS only runs events in London is a myth. Where. pre covid, EFDSS was attempting to deliver value was in teaching teachers and this involved workshops countrywide.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 05:52 PM

Something more inclusive?
Folk song, music and dance for all. Too long?
Folk song and dance for all. Still too long?
Folk song for all. Still too long?
Folk for all. Still too long?
Never mind.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 09:02 PM

Guest Peter obviously worked for the Grynyad - famous for their typos.

Bill Rutter actually worked for the Society and as far as I am aware was never a paying member of the Society.

It would seem that the definition of what constitutes running a folk event might be the next thing to have a long a totally wasteful / meaningless discussion on.

What the Society needs in either my humble opinion or just my opinion is some doers rather than what my dad used to term "gunners" - people who were gunner do this or gunner do that but never did either.

Henry missed the obvious one
F--k All. Spot on!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 06:48 AM

What are these events outside London? If there are any they are not very effective in letting people know about them, and considering this is one of the most frequent criticisms you'd think they'd do more to publicise those they are involved with.

Most events outside London (and many in it) are organised by volunteers, who run the network of folk clubs, dances and festivals that the folk scene relies upon, and where many of the professional artists the EFDSS promotes earn their livings. They are sometimes supported by regional groups, again mostly led by volunteers. This is what I mean by the grass roots, and in my experience the EFDSS offers little in the way of support and advice to them. My own organisation is affiliated in order to obtain PLI, although we could obtain this elsewhere, but when I tried to contact them for advice on a particular topic they didn't help.

The excellent Halsway Manor is an entirely independent organisation and a charity in its own right.

The EFDSS is very involved in education, and there may be events outside London through the Folk Education Network - not being a teacher or educator I wouldn't know. However this is of little interest to those who are not teachers or workshop leaders. There seems to be very little for adult learners who cannot regularly attend C# House. Of course education is important in itself, but I wonder how many schoolchildren who are introduced to folk through the FEN go on to maintain an interest and involvement?

I'm glad John Moulden is sure of a welcome when he visits the House. On both occasions when I visited the place was like the Marie Celeste, and almost the only people visible were external groups who had hired rehearsal space. The shop was poorly stocked and was frankly disappointing. Admittedly that was several decades ago and perhaps it's better now, but I've not been tempted to return.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 09:16 AM

"
Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett - PM
......

Do I take it that now I have renewed my membership that I have Public liability insurance? Do I need anything else or will it be sent to me? (if needed?)

Ray

I think now you need to tell them that you want insurance, and what you do (e.g. caller, club organiser, etc.)

My gripe is that they don't always sort out the insurance cover soon enough, in the past I found that I'd been uninsured for months. A year or so back there was a hassle about the only unpaid activity counting, which they changed after howls of protest from people who occasionally take paid gigs (could we count our expenses as on tax returns?). Now I think they are in negotiation again, so once again I may not know till after I've renewed.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 10:09 AM

If the excellent(IMHO)suggestion for the new name - "Folk All" was adopted, it would be very inclusive, and C# House could be renamed Folk Hall!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 10:22 AM

Would excuse "them" for doing Folk All!!
What about "All Folking About"?
Even more inclusive?
It is of course Cecil Sharp House currently and not the well used abbreviation.
Even adopting the well used abbreviation has its problems.
1 What would one do with ecils harp?
2 # is now an abbreviation for number for some reason.

The field is open to enter any or all other problems.
Fill your boots!