BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 02:46 PM

I've noticed many Irish making connections between their history and the current contretemps. Used to be I reckoned the two most unsolvable long term world problems were the Irish/ English/ British troubles and the Mideast. And the Irish stituation got much much better but the rest metastasized.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 06:07 AM

An interesting book for background is the late Dervla Murphy's A Month by the Sea - from 2013, lots of facts and figures about Hamas, Israeli occupation, etc.

"Out of Gaza" is the Israeli equivalent of Cromwell's "To Hell or to Connacht" when removing Irish people from the rich parts of Ireland and sending them to allocations of land one-tenth of the land they owned, and on very poor soil, while their land was given to English and Scottish Protestant farmers - and for much the same reason, an attempt to "plant" a neighbouring country with religiously-approved loyalists.

Meanwhile in Gaza, children are starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 06:13 PM

I appreciate the link to Haaretz. They seem to be kind of Guardian-like in their breadth of subject and attitude.

I've been expecting an Out-Of-Gaza proposal to develop. No idea where that will take us.

I have not caught up on my Thomas Friedman articles.

There is a kind of parallelism in the perception difference: In the U S we have many Americans saying that the Jan 06 attack on the Capitol Building was an 'insurrection' and others saying this notion is a hoax and at most it was a demonstration gone a bit over zealous. And with this and various challenges to our institutional authorites we are led by our timetables to a pivotal election in eight months.

The parallel I'm drawing here is the notion that currently a war is going on in Gaza between elements of the IDF and the Hamas rulers of Gaza. Versus the notion that it is an extended punitive expedition with unset boundries.

My overall observations are that this is mostly due to Hamas not wanting the incipient relationships developing between Israeli and neighboring Arab states. I personally think that all sides have suffered from what Thomas Friedman has called "Failure Of The Imagination." and going on in my words, the failure is combined with a perception held by some parties that this is a Zero-Sum situation, and that considerable religious and political bias is floating all around this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 05:37 PM

Land grab.
Jewish settlers set their sights on Gaza beachfront

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Feb 24 - 02:27 AM

I've read that 12 people out of UNRWA's staff of 13,000 are alleged by Israel to have been involved in the 7 October attack. Nine people have been fired by the UN, one is among over 100 UNWRA staff who've been killed by the Israeli attacks on Gaza, and the situation of two others is being clarified. Here's a good CNN report.
It's often hard to find good information about Israel's war on Gaza, because so many reporters, writers and poets are being killed; by mid-January 13 Palestinian poets and 68 journalists had been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 04:24 PM

From an interview broadcast today on MSNBC it sounded like negotiations are underway for prisoner exchanges and a permanent cease fire. The UN has interjected chaos into the whole thing - the participation of some of their UNRWA folks who provide aid in Gaza were seen participating in the October 7 raid.

UNRWA is the biggest aid provider in Gaza, where Israel's war against Hamas has displaced the vast majority of the population within the besieged territory and plunged it into a humanitarian catastrophe. U.N. officials say a quarter of the population is starving.

With the majority of its budget in doubt, and because UNRWA spends contributions as they come in throughout the year, the agency says it will be forced to halt operations within weeks if funding isn't restored.

More here.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jan 24 - 03:39 PM

Land grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Jan 24 - 09:59 AM

25,000 dead now, 10,000 of them children. And America being comprehensively bullied in any feeble attempt it may make to say "Ah, don't kill quite so many, if you kindly wouldn't mind, sirs". And the war is already starting to spread, to Syria, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon; the Suez Canal is already unpassable, and ships have returned to the 18th century route around Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jan 24 - 06:27 AM

Blinkers? That euphemism is over a century old. Its older than 'icebox'. Today the term for being partially blinded to one's own suspicion and prejudice might be called wearing a VR headset or an invisible blindfold that blinds the wearer.

Fear, prejudice and suspicion are stacked one upon another like bricks that build a wall. Each brick is made of lies and hate until it is impenetrable to all understanding. All that is heard through the wall is a toxic discourse that calls for war.

This happens in social media, a neighborhood, a village, houses of worship, and even nations.

Blinkers is an old term but so is war.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 10:58 PM

This is a link to last night's NPR broadcast of "On The Media" (OTM). It features an interview with Masha Gessen who is a regular writer with The New Yorker and has a Russian/ Ukrainian/ Jewish background. I am posting it because she asks good questions, has good insights, and makes me think. I did not find a strong political/ social position in her words, mabe because I didn't want to, maybe because I didn't totally understand her words. I am definitely going to listen again.

She was speaking to the Gaza issues even if you don't conclude that with my words above. On The Media spent a lot of time on Gaza and is a full hour program, so there may be other bits of the podcast available.

Masha Gessen in "On The Media"

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 08:32 PM

Gaza has been illegally blockaded since 2006. Illegal settlements have proliferated in the illegally occupied West Bank for decades. An apartheid wall has been built. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been slaughtered, their home obliterated and their futures ruined for life, and hardly any of them have done anything wrong.   Perhaps you'd care to contemplate all that, revisit your post and tell me once again that it's "what Hamas did to Gaza." While you're at it, perhaps you'd care to research the reasons why we have Hamas and Hezbollah in the first place. No blinkers this end, old boy. Just seeing what's been going on with eyes wide open. Of course, you may see it differently. If you do, you could be finding yourself in a dwindling minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 06:23 PM

SS:

I'd say the "blinkered" description describes more than one side. Over here we use the expression "drinking the koolaid". Which I will suggest is very much what Hamas has done to Gaza in more than one sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 06:21 PM

Armchair generals do not win wars, end wars, or know war.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 07:27 AM

The Houthis have made it crystal clear that the attacks on shipping in the Red Sea are in retaliation to the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza and are intended to hinder supplies reaching Israel. They have said that they want the continuing destruction of Gaza to stop and they want much more aid to reach the civilians there. The west, on the other hand, is vehemently trying to separate Israel away in our minds from the Red Sea conflict. The UK in particular want us to think that the priorities are to keep the supply chains going, to keep shipping costs down and to prevent inflationary pressures (all while Gaza burns, which isn't getting much stick at the moment, but, of course, Israel aren't our enemies...) I suppose that showing support for Israel "looks bad" in that region at the moment, considering what they're doing, and, of course, the Houthis are allies of Hamas, therefore ARE our enemies, therefore we don't believe them do we, as our enemies are always the baddies? Or am I missing something? Oh, and let's not forget that for years the Houthis were bombed by the Saudis using UK-supplied aircraft and weaponry, delivered by the military that we helped to train...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 07:01 AM

> Well, they have no oil, I suppose.

Until Hamas took over, I understand, Gaza was self-sufficient in food. The overall situation reminds me of Galbraith's quote in The Age of Uncertainty, attributed to "a high official of the Department of State to the author, 1974":

To understand the world you must know that the military establishments of the United States and the Soviet Union have united against the civilians of both countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 07:29 PM

You are so blinkered that I can't argue with you. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 06:14 PM

SS:
You sound like you are most definitely 'taking sides.' And have for some time. All I did was mention what is going on and why it is still going on. Others may judge who is sticking to facts. Also, Hamas is being excused when Israel is being taken to court in the manner noted in the recent news. Hamas started this latest war and maintains it as a war. The war is being 'widened' by Iran supported parties both on the Lenanon border and at sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 02:16 PM

And only Israel apologists here are taking sides, robo. Most of us are commenting on what we see happening with our eyes wide open and no-one is excusing Hamas, not in the slightest. By now, with millions displaced, a country in ruins and 23000 dead, it's a bit of a stretch for anyone to keep on defending Israel, or,to be more precise, the Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 02:04 PM

There's still a war. Still Israelis getting killed in battle. And still unreleased hostages. Hamas should be on trial. Germany seems to agree

No one is giving Israel a pass

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 01:06 AM

The first mentions of "voluntary transfers" of the people of Gaza out of their homelands are beginning to peep their shy heads out from behind the genocide.
What did I say? Land grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 07:31 PM

Isn't it amazing that the US and UK will leap into action to protect their shipping/protect western interests/ to prevent a bit more inflation/ to make sure we get our goods as cheaply as possible/to stop oil prices going up, whilst standing by to watch the slaughter of 23000 children, women and male non-combatants in Gaza. Well, they have no oil, I suppose. And, well, we have to please those all-powerful pro-Israel lobbies, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 06:43 PM

In the International Court of Justice in The Hague yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jan 24 - 06:35 PM

Disease cold and misery as the horror goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 24 - 07:34 PM

They can speak softly but carry a big stick. Bebe is conducting a war to avoid prosecution as much as Trump is running to prevent his own prison time.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 05:42 PM

Time for Israel to undergo irrevocable societal, political change

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 07:43 PM

Nigel, military aid all through periods both of war and of ceasefires has been provided by the US. The US has never stopped supplying Israel with military aid no matter what the circumstances are. I'm suggesting that the UNCONDITIONAL supply of military aid should never be the default. In the current circumstances, I'm suggesting that such aid is unconscionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 04:29 PM

I'm just relieved it wasn't Israel that bombed that Iranian thing. I had been afraid it had been.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 03:24 PM

Newsweek- Trust Me, You'd Rather Live in a Pro-Israel America

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 10:58 AM

Blinken is back in the Middle East to probably deliver the bad news to Netanyahu - that Biden has no intention of tanking his own presidential campaign to support Bebe. N. may be hoping that Trump gets back into office and Biden knows that, so N. is on his own very soon if he doesn't pull back and call for a permanent cease fire. My guess.

This thing is spreading (see DV news) and it is entirely up to Netanyahu to stop what he's doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 10:43 AM

The glaringly obvious thing to would be to make all military aid to Israel completely and immediately conditional on a permanent ceasefire

The glaringly obvious thing with that comment is that a permanent ceasefire would negate any need for military aid. (although I may have been confused by the first part of the comment)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 07:46 AM

The glaringly obvious thing to would be to make all military aid to Israel completely and immediately conditional on a permanent ceasefire, along with a firm undertaking to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank and to engage in serious talks, with a timetable, towards a two-state solution. Of course, this won't happen so let's not dwell. Suffice to say that putting bullets through people's heads never solves a thing.

Bibi's prime motive for keeping this horror show going is to save his own skin. If he calls it off before he "wins" (he's already lost), he'll end up in jail for corruption. Of course, he should end up in jail for war crimes in any case, but he'll be long dead before that can be achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 24 - 07:08 AM

"that ratbag who's in charge in Israel (which in no way is to excuse what Hamas did). There's only one person on the planet who can stop him"

Stop him?
the assassination of the head of a sovereign nation is an option for Biden?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 06:29 PM

It's terrible. At the moment it looks as though the Saudis and their allied states are desperate to avoid escalation, and Hezbollah can see that it wouldn't be in their interests either. But there are plenty of potential flashpoints: commercial shipping in the Gulf has been disrupted almost to a standstill, Hamas/Hezbollah want revenge for the killing of the Hamas leader in Lebanon and Isis have claimed responsibility for the slaughter in Iran. At the heart of it all as things are right now is that ratbag who's in charge in Israel (which in no way is to excuse what Hamas did). There's only one person on the planet who can stop him, and the world is increasingly asking the question, so why doesn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 06:11 PM

SS:
Fascinating. I haven't heard this on the news, yet, so thanks. I wonder if the people behind the letter at least told Biden who they were. I'll bet not. I also wonder at confirmation on the Hamas figures of victims.

Meanwhile, there is hard fighting going on, and captives are still captives.

Being in Alaska, I haven't run into cease fire adocates locally (although I'm sure they exist). Biden's campaign does not have a hope up here, but the main issue in discussion among the locals would be our porous southern border.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 24 - 04:28 PM

With the new year Biden's campaign is stepping up their promotions and his campaign staff are making it clear that the Hamas/Israel war has to stop. Biden campaign staff issue anonymous letter protesting approach to Israel-Hamas war
The letter says it is a moral imperative for the president to publicly “call for a cessation of violence.”

A group of aides hired to reelect President Joe Biden is breaking with him on the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

In a letter first shared with West Wing Playbook, 17 current Biden campaign staffers called directly on the president to push for a permanent ceasefire in the monthslong conflict.

“As your staff, we believe it is both a moral and electoral imperative for you to publicly call for a cessation of violence,” the staffers wrote in the letter, which was anonymously signed and posted on Medium. “Complicity in the death of over 20,000 Palestinians, 8,200 of whom are children, simply cannot be justified.”

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 04:24 PM

This topic needs to take a rest. Too many tangents have been introduced (and removed because they just make the squabble worse). Don't spill this over into other threads. Take a break for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 06:27 AM

The current slaughter is approaching 20,000; or if you take into account that according to Hamas there are 8,000 people missing under the rubble, 28,000.
I don't think it matters which side is which in any attack or any war, what matters is who is being butchered and who's the butcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 06:16 AM

Sorry, forgot to mention the article. 'Hugely frustrating’: international media seek to overcome Gaza ban
Journalists stopped from entering via Israel and Egypt have to rely mostly on Palestinian insiders and social media. [The Guardian]

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 06:12 AM

To clarify the question of journalists in Gaza, quite simply, international journalists are banned by Israel from entering Gaza. A very few who have been granted permits must remain embedded with the IDF, are not allowed any contact with Palestinians and are subject to having their reports vetted by the IDF. The reports we do get are mostly from Palestinian "citizen journalists" or are from social media. I could speculate that the IDF have certain things they'd rather we didn't see. Al Jazeera reports that over 90 journalists and their staff have been killed. Other outlets, including the Guardian article, put the number at 63. With the exception of a handful of Israeli and a couple of Lebanese journalists, they were all Palestinians. Jeremy Bowen is the chief BBC mouthpiece in this conflict - see his comment in the article about the difficulty of accurate reporting when he's obliged to report only from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 04:55 AM

Propaganda isn't news, but its perpetrators are very clever at conflating the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 04:50 AM

I'm a subscriber to Haaretz too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 04:27 AM

The BBC came under extremely heavy criticism from the right at the beginning of this conflict for failing to condemn Hamas as terrorists. The public service remit of the licence fee-funded BBC is to be neutral and unbiased in its news reporting. "Reporting" is the operative word. News bulletins that, for example, constantly referred to Hamas as terrorists would, in effect, be mixing news with comment, the very thing that we criticise the tabloids for. I'm not a news reporter and I can freely give my opinion that Hamas commits terrorist acts. The BBC is not in the same place. As for keeping journalists safe in Gaza, it's worth pointing out that dozens of journalists have been killed in Gaza, almost all, as far as I know, by IDF shelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 23 - 01:26 AM

Maggie, I find Steve to always be aggressively opinionated, no matter the topic. His attack on me for a harmless suggestion that one of the possible multiple reasons for the BBC not openly describing Hamas as a terrorist organisation might be for the protection of its reporters embedded in Gaza and its acceptance as a responsible news agency by Hamas and Gazans in general, and his overt attempt at ‘putting words in my mouth’ are a perfect example. An angry rant, aimed at someone who agrees with him, shabby and deceitful.

It’s quite noticeable how few people even bother to engage with him nowadays. Before long, there won’t be anyone left here to discuss anything, and he’ll be ranting to himself.

I’m outta here - Steve can have the last word, he always seems to need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 08:54 PM

I find you to be the same, Maggie. Am I allowed to say that? I could say much more, but thanks anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 08:46 PM

Jezus christ Nigel, read the news. I find Steve to be oppressively opinionated in this thread, but I have to agree with him on this. Go look for yourself, the death toll is regularly reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 07:47 PM

For God's sake, Nigel, just read the news. Yes, the Gaza death stats are originated by the Hamas Health ministry. I'm not aware that any agency has tried to contradict the numbers in any serious material sense. Instead of challenging me about generally-accepted news, just try to look it up for yourself, and try to not be about six weeks behind everyone else who actually try to engage with the world out there. Move on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 07:32 PM

Steve:
That last post was to BWM.

As for the death stats, Nigel, perhaps you've been fast asleep for the last two months.

I take that as an acceptance that you cannot substantiate your claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 07:16 PM

That last post was to BWM.

As for the death stats, Nigel, perhaps you've been fast asleep for the last two months.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 07:14 PM

I don't understand your hostility. Yes we agree. The point about the Beeb is that, in effect, its hands are tied. They have sidestepped the right-wing accusation that they "won't call Hamas terrorists" by undertaking to make that statement at the start of every news bulletin. Ironically, by trying to be neutral, they are failing to be so by not calling out the IDF at the same time. Personally, I respect the Beeb by taking that stance against right-wing supporters of the Israeli regime. Instead, I think we should be calling out the Express, Mail and Telegraph for being so one-sided.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 07:13 PM

After all, 18000 innocents dead at their hands, including 8000 children? Unless you think that's OK?   

Do you have a link for that claim?
I can see a statement of 18,800 deaths: Here but no comment about the number of children in that figure,

The figures may be accurate, as I see that the numbers of children seem to be higher (compared to the number of adults) than we would expect in UK. But if you're going to quote statistics then a source would be appreciated!