Welsh hymn for 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune

Subject: Welsh hymn for'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Barbara
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 01:37 AM

I've heard a number of people say that the Bob Dylan song "Lay Down Your Weary Tune, Lay Down" was taken from a Welsh Hymn. Can anyone help me find the hymn?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: GUEST,Sian in Wales
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 07:07 AM

I could help you on the hymn front, but (falling on my sword, here) I don't know the Dylan piece. Can you point me in the right direction for reference?

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Barbara
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 11:21 AM

No need for the bloody hystrionics, Sian. It's not all that well known. Let me find the words and post them; I suspect they are similar enough to the hymn to be a clue. I'd post the tune, too, but I'm having trouble transcribing it, and would like to see the original.
The first verse goes:

Lay down your weary tune, lay down
Lay down the songs you've sung
And rest yourself 'neath a [....] of wings(?)
No man can hope to strum(?)

Guess I really better go look.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 11:49 AM

uh, Barb...I too would like to know the hymn, but the words are < href=http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/laydowwt.html>HERE. I always liked the "strength of strings" line and "no voice could hope to hum.".......appropriate for Bob somehow...and me!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 12:01 PM

Well, I whupped up! Forgot the "a" at the start!!! Shall I try it again? Yeah, let's see how badly I screw it up this time!

Honey Just Allow Me One More Chance - should be Lay Down Your Weary Tune really

Spaw

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: GUEST,Sian in Wales
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 07:27 AM

No specific tune jumps to mine although I suppose a lot of Double 8-6-8-6 hymn tunes suit it. From the words (Lay down) I would have thought that it's adapted from the Irish *Slane*, much discussed in Mudcat. ie. Lay down, o weary one, lay down your head upon my breast.

Let me know if you have any further tune clues...

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Barbara
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 11:54 AM

Thanks for the link, 'spaw.
Sian, thank you too for your help. I think Slane is the hymn "Be thou my vision" and "Star of the county Down" is the tune for the hymn with the line "Lay down o weary one, lay down."
Later today I'll try to transcribe the melody for the Dylan song, and then post it.
For one thing, this hymn is major, and both Slane and Star are minor at least in places.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: raredance
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 09:29 PM

The first line of "Lay Down Your Weary Tune" is a pretty good match to the first line of "How Can I Keep From Singing" The tunes diverge there, but maybe that info would help somebody think of the hymn tune that may be similar.

rich r

Subject: Tune Add: LAY DOWN YOUR WEARY TUNE
From: Barbara
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 01:44 AM

Here's my attempt at the tune. And as you will no doubt see, I can't tell if it's in 2 or 3. This should however, play you the melody approximately as it goes, even if the time is wrong.
Blessings,
Barbara

MIDI file: laydown.mid

Timebase: 240

TimeSig: 3/4 24 8
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0000 1 60 080 0192 0 60 064 0048 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 67 080 0192 0 67 064 0048 1 69 080 0576 0 69 064 0144 1 67 080 0192 0 67 064 0048 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 62 080 0192 0 62 064 0048 1 60 080 0384 0 60 064 0096 1 60 080 0192 0 60 064 0048 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 67 080 0192 0 67 064 0048 1 69 080 0192 0 69 064 0048 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 67 080 0384 0 67 064 0096 1 67 080 0384 0 67 064 0096 1 70 080 0192 0 70 064 0048 1 70 080 0096 0 70 064 0024 1 69 080 0096 0 69 064 0024 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 65 080 0624 0 65 064 0096 1 65 080 0096 0 65 064 0024 1 67 080 0096 0 67 064 0024 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 62 080 0192 0 62 064 0048 1 62 080 0624 0 62 064 0096 1 60 080 0192 0 60 064 0048 1 65 080 0192 0 65 064 0048 1 67 080 0192 0 67 064 0048 1 69 080 0192 0 69 064 0048 1 69 080 0384 0 69 064 0096 1 67 080 0192 0 67 064 0048 1 65 080 0576 0 65 064
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:
M:3/4
Q:1/4=100
K:C
C2F2G2|A6|G2F2D2|C4C2|F2G2A2|F2G4|G4^A2|^AAF2F2|
-F4FG|F2D2D2|-D4C2|F2G2A2|A4G2|F19/4||

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: tradsteve
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 01:58 AM

Bob said that he heard the tune for the song on an album of scotish or Irish folkosngs (I can't remember) at Joan Baez' house in Monterey. He said that it was just a beautiful melody and it had no words... so lyrics are most likely of no use to others trying to find it. That's all the information I have so, good luck!

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: GUEST,sam
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 06:10 AM

Years ago, I fell asleep with the radio on a religious station. I awoke at 3:00 AM or so, and swear I heard the hymn which is being refered to here. It has puzzled me for a long time- did I really hear it, was it a dream, etc- but I've always believed that it was real. None of the Mudcat suggestions are correct- it was not be thou my vision or How Can I keep from Singing . It was totally different from anything like that, and actually verrrry similar to Dylan's tune. I researched it so far as to read in Dylan biographies and websites, and have never found where he gives credit to any inspiration. However, be assured (as am I now), that there is such a hymn; the refrain does have something to do with a repetitive "lay down your weary something". I look forward to some Mudcatter coming up with the specific hymn. Incidently, I read somewhere that when Dylan first wrote it it had like a hundred verses and Joan Baez said "you cant sing the whole thing, you'll bore the audience" so Bob did sing the whole thing (45 minutes worth), but only once in concert.

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Barbara
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 10:32 AM

Not that Bob ever misleads us about the sources of his lyrics or anything, tradsteve, but the words have the ring of something that was traditional and then tweaked -- like stength of strings/wings and then "no voice can hope to [hum] sing? tell? say?
See, if you had a different rhyme in the second line -- not "strum" -- the last line could stand as a traditional hymn line. Only the word "hum" makes it odd.
A lot of the imagery is almost traditional hymn wording from the end 1800's.
Mind you, I like the changes. I just want to know where it started.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: GUEST,sam
Date: 03 Feb 00 - 05:40 PM

Lay Down, etc, is only found on the Biograph album. Prior to that, it had not been released. Robert Shelton's book "No Direction Home" says that the hymn being talked about is Scottish, not Welsh. Dont understand what's wrong with being a "guest." Don't much care, unless it's important.

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Bugsy
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:01 AM

When I worked in the business, there was an out take version of this song available for license from all and sundry.

Whoever had written the title list on the original master tape had written it in block letters and made the top of the "Y" a little shallow. The next person to copy off this master, obviously did not speak English and mistook the "Y" for a "T". That's why when you see some of the cheapo CDs of Dylan. (Rare Batch Of Little White Wonder etc) It often has the track named "Lay Down Your Weart Tune"

And that'th the truthhhhhhhhhhhh!

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: GUEST,Sian in Wales
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:12 AM

Just when ya get the hang of blue clicky things, red things that don't click and steepen the learning curve pop up. Hmpph.

OK. That learned, I'm in agreement that it's probably scottish. Don't sound like no Welsh hymn I know. It opens like, "The water is wide, I can't get o'er."

Sorry if this appears as "guest" and if it's an annoyance, but I slip these things in at lunch hour from work and don't keep the relevant ... cookies? ... on the machine...

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:17 PM

I don't have any problems with your wearing the prefix GUEST. It's what we're talking about that's relevant. Dunno who said it mattered. Not me.
Does seem like a Scottish tune, sian, in that it hangs around the fifth note a lot, almost enough to be mixolydian, and does not modulate like so many Welsh tunes do. Did you figure out how to make the tune play? I can ask to have it posted at the midi site, but I know my transcription is wrong: there shouldn't be so many tied notes. It must mean I have misplaced the downbeat. Aargh!
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Helen
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 06:07 PM

Sometimes I can't get the Text-to-Midi files from the MidiText program to play on the Midi programme of my computer but I dscovered that it is the tempo - making it play re-e-a-a-l-l-l-y slowly, so now I play it on Noteworthy but I go to the Conductor View which shows the Tempo and change it to something more reasonable, in this case 120 beats per crotchet (quarter note?). I had to do that for this tune.

Yes, the beginning sounds like Water is Wide to me too.

Somewhere in my Bookmarks I have aHymn/midi site. I'll try to find it and see if there are any hymns with a title like Lay Down Your etc

Helen

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: raredance
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 10:30 AM

My favorite rendition of this song was recorded by Jim & Jean on their Verve Folkways "Changes" album. There is no date on the album but I believe it to be late 60's,long before Dylan's "Biograph" release in 1985. A much more recent and faster version was done by Tim O'brien a couple years ago on his "Red On Blond" collection of Dylan songs done primarily in O'Brien's blue/new grass style. The Jim & Jean album has liner notes by Phil Ochs but no information about the songs. O'Brien mentions that it is a traditional tune but offers no specifics.

rich

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 10:44 AM

This one is really getting to me......I love the song and had never actually considered the source of the tune. Last night I sat at the piano going through an old hymnal trying out the first line of the melody....Still looking.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Helen
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 06:54 PM

I looked up the midi sites for hymns but I couldn't find any with a similar title. I don't know the song so I'm probably not the best person to look for the hymn.

Helen

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:50 AM

Dylan himself said on 'Biograph' that he heard the melody on an old 78 with bagpipes on it; he thought it was a Scottish air. (But he may have come to that conclusion because of the pipes; or he may have identified it as that on the record; hard to say without asking him). I am Scottish and never heard it before. I asked my guitar teacher, also Scottish, and who played the pipes as a youngster, and he didn't know the tune, but identified typically Scottish aspects in it. I heard Eddi Reader & Karen Msthieson (both Scottish) sing it recently at the Transatlantic Sessions & it was wonderful: as if from the DNA. I would love to know what the original melody was, so keep the topic going, folks!

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

Bryan (TheSnail) Creer pointed out to me that it's a version of O Waly Waly:

The water is wide, I cannot cross o'er
And neither have I wings to fly;
Give me a boat that will carry two
And both shall row, my love and I.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Welsh hymfor 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Arkie
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

I thought it pretty much settled that the melody for Lay Down Your Weary Tune was a variant of "The Water is Wide" or "Waly, Waly". There are several hymns in the Methodist Hymnal using a similar melody. Two that come to mind are "When Love Is Found" and "Gifts of Love" but neither is all that old. There is another hymn "When I Speak", but I think it also of rather recent vintage. All at least less than a century in age as far as the words are concerned. The melody is also sometimes used for "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross".

Subject: RE: Welsh hym for 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Celtaddict
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:30 PM

Danny Quinn also recorded a beautiful version of this on 'Solo' in 1999. I have long thought of this as the Dylan song that should be sung by people who do not sing Dylan songs.
It certainly starts out sounding like 'Waly Waly' (or 'The Water Is Wide') but diverges so much, in a variety of ways, that I think calling it a 'variant' is a bit of a stretch; it seems to me a considerably more distant relative.

Subject: RE: Welsh hymn for 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune
From: Arkie
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:41 PM

Agreed 'variant' does not do justice to the melody Dylan created. I think he started with the traditional tune in mind but he did develop it in his own directions.