BS: Down and out in Hainan.

Subject: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 11:52 PM

I really feel for our American friends when their military personnel put their gov't in some tough positions. They just won't do the John Wayne thing. Why didn't Gary Powers set fire to his plane and then take the lethal tablet like he was trained to ? Why didn't the skipper of the Pueblo just open the sea cocks and sink her. The crew would have taken to the life boats and the super sensitive ship would have ended up on the bottom, in international waters. ( Hard to drag a ship from there into territorial waters ! ). And now this latest fiasco with another spy plane. Why didn't the pilot just put the stick down and belly land on the ocean, the crew take to the life rafts, the plane sinks, and Bob's your uncle. Then you can accuse the Chinese of shooting her down. The Chinese would be on the backfoot and not the Americans. So, where did the dopey bastard land it? Right in a non-friendly's backyard. When it rolled to a stop did the crew torch it ? No. Poor George Bush, he could be forgiven for thinking his military people have thumb in bum & mind in neutral.

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:48 AM

Gee, Maybe he said fuck the ol' U.S. of A. and its collective military tight ass.

Or, look at the book deal he'll get when he gets back home.

Or, here's an idea - he's probably human - much to the chagrine of the military and was just doing his best and oh, by the way - John Wayne died of lung cancer - a pitiful shadow of his pre-cancerous Camel smoking self, not at the Alamo or Iwo Jima or anywhere else.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:02 AM

Interesting article from the Taipei Times which says the remaining Chinese jet forced them to land and also that it was the other Chinese jet which attempted to slow the US aircraft down, by turning, and ran into it, instead of the US running into them.

Like Ebbie said in another thread, I alternate between holding my breath and sending all the good energy I can to everyone involved in the situation.

Whatever happened, I am sure the ultimate decision was a tough one, having to consider not only the international ramifications, but also the lives of 24 other fellow servicemen/women.

If you believe in a Higher Power, I'd suggest asking s/he/it to take over Bush et al about right now and sort it out.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 02:58 PM

I am sure the pilot and crew did exactly as they were trained to do. The Chinese/American relationship is nothing like that of the cold war era ... yet, and let's hope it doesn't get there.

The continued holding of Americans by the Chinese government, the arrogant claim by the Chinese that the slow lumbering antique American aircraft was at fault, and the total disregard of Chinese authorities for the sanctity and privacy of the American aircraft is nothing short of outrageous! This from a country that buys our secrets, steals our technologies, refuses to honor World accepted standards for copyright and patents and monetary exchange - yet believes we should extend most favored nations, and world trade advantages to them?? I say f*ck 'em. If they insist on going their own; let 'em. If they need to have the rest of the world allow exceptions to the rules by which we all live, let 'em go their own way.

Suppose the accident occurred over the south of England, and Tony Blair laid blame on the American airplane, and placed our 24 airmen/women in jail, stripped the aircraft and downloaded all of its info. Would we all sit back and say, "well I hope Tony will see fit to do the right thing" ? Bush, Rice and Powell need to take this bull by the horns and let the Chinese know in no uncertain terms, whatthey have done is outrageous and will not be accepted by partners who play together in the same world economies.

China is excercising cold war behavior, but expect to be treated like friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: kendall
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:05 PM

I agree with John Gray.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: radriano
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:25 PM

May I remind people that John Wayne was an actor. I cringe when I hear people say we need more Americans like John Wayne. He portrayed heroic figures. I've never yet heard a true-life heroic story about John Wayne, whatever his real name was.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:56 PM

Actually his real name was Marion Morrison so he probably had to do quite a few heroic things to keep from getting his ass kicked until he changed it.

Sorry...back to the serious question.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:58 PM

Now if a Chinese plane had come across to America on a spying mission, and had caused the death of an American fighter pilot before crash landing...

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 09:14 PM

The John Wayne thing was just a figure of speech. I'm just dumbfounded as to how American military personnel can let such sensitive equipment fall into the wrong hands and embarrass hell out of their gov't. I'm sure this is not what their training directs them to do. So, either they are insufficiently trained, or they went against training procedures. Either way I'd be saying to the Chinese "keep the dumb bastards". Why take them back. Let them stay in China and be a problem for the Chinese. Yeah, I know, that won't happen. They'll eventually make it back to the US where gov't & media will turn 24 fuckwits into heroes and Hollywood will have another blockbuster.

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:37 PM

I love the Mudcat because it frequently makes me expand my horizons.

Like now - I'm about to stand up for the U.S. Military (cringe)

No one knows exactly the situation that thos individuals faced, but I know a little about the training they have had and it is likely to be on par with nearly every major nation around the world. And unlike many nations, since there is a good chance the U.S. Military will get "involved" somewhere around the world, the training has to be realistic. For all the mistakes our personel have made over the years, there have been a great deal more of successful missions (think about how many times that crew flew the same route successfully.)

And as for China insisting that our prop recon airplane ran into their jet fighter (Ha, ha, ha, ha!) It sure doesn't say much for both their training and their equipment.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 11:15 PM

Didn't John Wayne die of stomach cancer, not lung cancer? I know lung cancer is commonly believed, but I think a biog I read said it was stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:37 AM

I don't believe the rumour that someone opened a fortune cookie in San Francisco and found one that read: "Help, they are holding us in a fortune cookie factory in Hainan, tell the Pres we destroyed the data in time".
RtS(even old Korean War jokes see their day come again)

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Troll
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:55 AM

There have been some indications that the crew did destroy the critical software and wipe ther hard drives prior to making the forced landing. They had time to do this and it's what they were trained to do. There's no reason to supose that they didn't do just that.
On the other hand, we would probably do the same thing the Chinese are doing if we were handed such a windfall; strip the plane and learn as much as we could about the other sides intelligence gathering capability.
The Chinese Government can't afford to let this go too long. The US is their major trading partner and they NEED the trade.
The problem lies with the fact that the government and the military are virtually separate entities and the generals are very hard-line. The politicians must tread carefully or they could lose the support of the army.
I believe that the course that Bush seems to have chosen- firm but no deadlines- is the correct one at this time. It gives the Chinese time to work out the internal problems between government and military without either side losing face.
And in China, face is all important. If Seth is still over there, maybe he can comment from inside the country.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:04 AM

I am sure the US would NOT do what the Chinese are doing if the shoe was on the other foot. The Cinese have insisted that their borders extend some 200 miles into the surrounding ocean - thumbing their nose at the world standard, and insisting they have the right to enforce their rule. They also claim the right to hold and inspect the sovereign property of another country that has been emergency landed on their property. This likewise is contrary to world standard. If they insist on enforcing thier standards, then they obviously do not want to play by the rules the rest of the nations play by.

What if we all sat down to play cards, and when I dealt the poker hand I gave myself 6 cards and insisted that was the way it was going to be because that was the way I always played it? You might not shoot me, but you sure as hell wouldn't play, would you. This is the corner China is painting themselves into ... and right now the US is deciding whether or not we want to play.

We'll get our people back, eventually. But the aircraft and all its secret technology is gone. And now the world can see just how truthful the Chinese are when they claim that they never bought or stole the weapons secrets, that they simply developed them on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:56 AM

Was it fifteen or twenty years ago when a pilot from Egypt landed (deliberately) with a then very new MIG 23 in Israel and the Israelis were very very interested to find out how the best fighter plane of the opposition works and how good it is in action? There were rumours at that time that a big friendly (from the point of view of Israel) power was very very interested in the Israelis sharing their new knowledge with them and that they (the Israelis) did share (for a price).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 12:31 PM

With a quick check on the net, I found this:

"Wayne never had a healthy life. He got one of his lung removed in 1963, had a heart surgery in 1978, and in the following year he had his stomach removed. John Wayne succumbed to cancer on 11 June 1979."

Of about 15 pages I visited, all said that he died of cancer, not a specific type. Usually, people of his age succumb to several different cancers, not just one. I know that he allowed the doctors to use him for experimental treatment - not to prolong his life, but to hopefully help future victims - he also helped to set up the John Wayne Cancer Inst. prior to his death.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo (on the road in Beijing)
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 12:47 PM

Jed:

When a Russian defected from the Soviet Union, flying a MIG-25 Foxbat (pretty much the best in the business at the time; had TTC and speed records, supposedly), and landed in Hokkaido, we didn't miss a beat in going over there and disassembling this intelligence trophy (while Bush the Elder was CIA head, FWIW) over the stern protests of the Russians. When the Russians got their plane back, it came back in pieces, having been thoroughly analysed by U.S. intelligence, with the indulgence of the Japanese authorities. The U.S. learned an awful lot from that plane.

Are things much different in the Spy vs. Spy world nowadays? Wh would you think they are? Is the difference here that the good ol' U.S. of A is, as Dylan would put it, "with God on our side"?

But right now, I'm somewhat comforted that I am travelling on a Norwegian passport in the PRC. Although if Dubya manages to pull a _real_ brain-fart here, that won't protect me much from any incoming falling on the Fobidden Ciy.

Time for some sense in this world, and to kick the troglodyte cold-warriors out of the buildings they have occupied (with the assistance of the SCOTUS) in Washington, D.C., where if things were as they _should_ be, the most interesting thing happening should be the cherry blossoms coming in bloom.

Cheers from the People's Republic of China,

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:07 PM

A link to what Arne has posted about the MIG 25.
As a cynic, I think that the amount of time a nation takes before handing back such a 'windfall' find tells more about it's ability to make use of such an information quickly than about its adherence to international standards of behaviour.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:08 PM

Every single time I hear of an incident involving China and our country, (the latest crisis; as well as China supplying Iran with nuclear parts for a reactor, which of course can be converted to military purposes; as well as the uncertainty over Taiwan, and the defense treaty we have with Taiwan) I shudder with trepidation and wonder if any of these incidents will be the one that creates a self fulfilling prophecy of Nostradamus's prediction about the war "between the west and the yellow race."

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:22 PM

"I am sure the US would NOT do what the Chinese are doing if the shoe was on the other foot."

If you believe that you'll believe anything.

The ground rules in this kind of situation is and always has been that where you are caught spying, the spying equipment is forfeit.

The weirdest thing about this is you get people talking as if "saving face" was important to the Chinese, but not to the Americans.

There's probably a dead pilot in all this. Who is going to apologise for causing his death?

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM

L'an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois
Du ciel viendra vn grand Roy d'effrayeur
Resusciter le grand Roy d'Angolmois,
Auant apres Mars regner par bon heur.



The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

That's the only Nostradamus verse I know of that can be understood to be about China. There are a lot of reasons to be afraid when China and the USA are on a collision course. Nostradamus for me is not among them.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

Wolfgang,
I saw a show on PBS a while back about Nostradamus's predications, and there was much more on China than what you've quoted. Sometime between 2008 and 2011, things are supposed to come to a head, and the quote I alluded to in my post was taken directly from the translation of what I saw on this show. Given his track record with his predications, I feel I have reason to feel a little unsettled. Taiwan could definitely be the trigger. (I personally feel that Taiwan is, an internal Chinese matter and definitely not worth creating WWIII over, and that we shouldn't meddle in it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 03:08 PM

Taiwan wouldn't be such an issue for me if the Taiwanese were half as democratic as we give them credit for being. They seem to be one of the last few countries we connect with in order to piss-off and have some bargaining power over our opposition.

They have a right to be a separate nation from Mainland China, but they seem to control their people with different means but definately to the same end as Big China. Not that they don't have a precarious position.

I wonder what would happen if China decided to pull a Iraq/Kuwait? What would the nations of the world do? Do you think that it might be a nuclear situation?

As for China and "Most Favored Trading Status" - I say, let's give it to them and little by little their country will be destroyed by MacDonald's and Nike just like the rest of the world.

It is a shame that xenophobic countries are rarely fair to their people - I'd kind of like to live in one. (instead, I live near Disney World and have the ability to say hi to 29 milloin of yall each year.)

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 04:17 PM

I agree Mc Grath, the Chinese should appologise to the family of the pilot for casuing his needless death (presuming he is dead).

There certaily is a huge difference between a pilot defecting from one cold war partner to another. I started my discussion by saying that we have NOT been experienceing cold war behaviour between the US and China, until now. The point is, this is a cold war act. The US did NOT violate any rules that are accepted by the rest of the world standards, and is China insists on taking the course they are on, they are perpetuating their place as a country that will not respect the rules of the rest of the world. They are choosing their own path ... they will go their own way, and that is fair enough; but they must accept the consequences. They will remain outsiders of the world community.

When I was in China the McDonalds near Tieneman square was upset because they had signed a 5 year contract with the government for their location, and two years into that agreement the government told them they had to move. McDonalds said 'we have a contract' and the government said, 'we changed our mind' - I don't know if/how the issue was resolved, but I think it is analogous to how the Chinese government thinks. They make the rules, and change them as they see fit.

I don't suppose, Arne that you'll have anything to worry about in your travels, unless the Chinese government tries to whip up anti-US feeling again. But I do think this incident has a very real chance of destroying the US/Chinese relations. And with them poised to strike out at Taiwan, we could be in some very very serious times down the road. With the Republicans in power it is unlikely that the US will stay out of that fight, and it will be ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:45 PM

Well the saga continues, just as I expected it to, with the Chinese trying to score maximum points at the expense of the Americans. The US need a bargaining chip badly, maybe the space shuttle could "find" a Chinese spy or com. satellite inside US space - space, and bring it back for a trade. You know, it's the old big-stick theory. You got big stick, I got bigger stick. Anyway, I want the movie rights, this thing is going to be bigger than Ben Hur. Get Nicholas Cage to play the pilot - nah, he's not dumb enough, maybe Robert Downey Jnr. And we've got to get a bimbo into the crew somehow. Who wants to write the song, maybe something to the tune of Up, Up & Away. I'm a cynic - right!

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Troll
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:15 AM

The Chinese pilot probably has himself to blame for the crash and his subsequent death. I have gotten this opinion from experienced pilots. The reasons are as follows.
The Chinese plane was a high performance fighter. They are designed to go very, very fast. In order to pace the US plane, he had to fly -for him- very slow. High speed planes are not very stable at low speeds and the US plane ( a four-engine prop job) is not a speedy plane at the best of times. Add to this that Chinese pilots only get about half the flight time that US pilots get and factor in the turbulence created by those four props and you can see the makings of a disaster.
And that is probably what happened. He got too close at too low a speed and the turbulence caused him to lose control for a second. That's all it took.
As I said , this is the opinion of several experienced pilots including at least one former fighter pilot.
I hope they get it setled soon. I've already bought the tickets for a trip to Beijing in June and they aren't refundable. Oh well...

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:26 AM

When it comes to who's fault it is of which plane hit which plane - let's just say that if John Force, drag racing champion was cruising down the road at 200 miles an hour and he ran into a BUS - most people would assume that it was his fault - not the driver of the bus. Seeing as how it seems unlikely that the U.S. plane swerved into the path of the jet, the Chinese are just once again trying to prove they can piss in the world pot with the big boys.

Good old (stupid) George W. will probably screw this up - though the chances of Gore doing much better is debatable.

everyone - please send your good thoughts to the people who are the pawns in this - the A.F. personnel & their families.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:26 AM

John Gray....would you be this critical if the crew happened to be Aussies?

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:00 PM

Amergin. Yeah, I'd like to think I was just as critical of our own stuff-ups. In 64 I was the youngest man at sea in our navy, 16. I was on our only carrier when it sliced one of our three destroyers in half, sinking it and killing 86 shipmates. On the 25th of this month we celebate Anzac Day. On this day in 1916 our troops stormed ashore at Gallipoli, landed in the wrong place, suffered massive casualties, and pulled out defeated 6 months later. This day has almost become our national day. Most people celebrate victories but only us Aussies can celebrate a defeat. In the 60's we let the Americans pressurise us into involvement in the Vietnam War. I did 2 tours of duty there in the navy. I reckon I was the only anti-Vietnam War sailor in our fleet. It's pretty lonely on a destroyer when your views are contrary to the rest of the crew. After a particularly heavy bombardment one day I said to my captain, "why are we here?". He stated that we are here because our gov't has sent us here. I replied that, if you want me to participate in killing people I don't even know then I need a better reason than that. He said, sorry I can't give you one. Thankfully, history proved my Vietnam stance to be the correct one, but our involvement in that war was an unholy stuff-up that nearly fractured our nation. And how about this. The political leader of Australia is our Prime Minister. But the constitutional head of our country is the Queen of England. She is not an Australian citizen - she is an alien. She exercises her authority through a resident Governor General. It is the Gov. Gen. who is the commander in-chief of our military forces. Therefore, our Prime Minister/parliament cannot order our armed forces to war without clearing it with the Gov. Gen.( and by extension - the Queen of England ). What other country would tolerate having a foreigner as a head of state? What a stuff-up. Can you imagine George Bush having to obtain permission from the King of Spain before he could call the country to arms. Ah well Amergin, there's some ammo for you.

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 06:42 PM

Okay, I live in China, and I like living here, this is what Chinese TV says: The Americans were flying very close to our borders, we sent up one jet to track it, the U.S. plane executed an unexpected turn, and our plane bumped it. The U.S. plane landed without asking permission at Hainan. We are not saying this was a conspiracy, like attacking our embassy in Belgrade, it was an accident, but the U.S is responsible. IT's our pilot that is missing, not theirs. THeire people will be home soon, safe and sound, but we need to investigate this incident." That's the official story from Chinese TV. HOw much credence do I give it?- about as much as anything coming from thte White HOuse as reported in the U.S. media. I work with 5th and 6th graders. They are great kids,I really like them a lot. My Chinese co-workers are a mixed bag, some are good friends, some people I work with okay, but are not friends out of work, some who I really don't like very much. But it's all personal. I mean do you maintain a geo-political perspective with your friends and colleagues at work? The idea of labelling Chinese as my enemy is sickening- Would you want to cause harm to anyone you care about? My fear is that it is going to become more difficult to stay or return here, but to date, nothing has changed, life goes on, we are planning to sing a Chinese version of " Let There Always be Blue Sky" at the Peony Festival, I'm going to join the school band to play the baritone horn, which I most recently played at Byron Junior HIgh School in 1960. My uncle used to tell me about fighting the "Red Chinese" in Korea in 1951. I look at my kids coming back from class in their new "track suit" school uniforms. THey all greet me, with hugs, and high and low and in-between fives, some just with a hello or a smile-THis is the enemy?? No way, not for this former soldier and peacenik.

Seth from China

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:32 PM

Whose fault it was isn't the central thing - there's a poor young man dead, and a family bereaved, because of stupid politicians playing silly spying games.

If that kind of thing happened in a school playground you'd hope people would be going around shamefaced, not strutting about making macho noises at each other and refusing to admit any responsibity.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 02:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 02:40 PM

Seth - I haven't heard any credible comments about teh Chinese being enemies. I hope I nevr do. I agree with you, I worked in China for a short while and lved the people and would hate to see relations spin into a cold war or worse scenario - but I don't think that's likely. I do think you're dreaming though, if you think the Chinese government news is any more open the news from the White House. There is no comparison between an open press, and one controlled by a government in power (Chinese or otherwise). Flawed as it is, the Western (in this case primarily US) press is capable of releasing all the facts, rleavant and otherwise - maybe even with a good deal of spin, but we have so many competing sources of information that I feel like I can sort out the wheat from the chaff.

The US (spy) plane was operating well outside the international border (even the Chinese gov't now admits that). Two Chinese fighters approached the US plane. While we don't know the specifics of their approach on this mission, because our crew has been held by the Chinese, we know that the Chinese fighters have been dangerously close on these missions, and have been purposely flying in a dangerous manner to the US spy planes. These actions are well documented and have been the source of two official US complaints to the Chinese gov't. One of those complaints actually citied this particular Chinese pilot because he was endagering the lives of all with his reckless flying. It is ironic that he was indeed the pilot that struck the US plane.

Having said all of that, clearly no one wins by his death. I am hopeful this issue will be resolved soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 11:51 PM

I can see the 24 US airmen doing a "Pueblo". How long was that ship's crew held prisoner - 7 Months ? Whilst the US gov't is in direct negotiations with the Chinese they ( the Chinese ) will draw it out as long as possible to achieve maximum embarrassment for them. Now, if it was my call, I'd pull all the American negotiators out and hand the problem to the UN and have them sort it out. Get Khofi (?) Annan on the job. My brief to the UN would be to get the Chinese to release the prisoners / hostages, yeah piss-off the word "detainees". Wasn't the UN set up to handle just these incidents ? With the UN on the job the negotiations may be just as protracted but at least I won't have to watch, on the TV news, the sight of American negotiators playing the part of limp dicks.

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:19 AM

Well, if you are going to be stuck in China, I can think of lots of worse places than Hainan. It would be incredibly stupid of the Chinese to treat their detainees in any way except very well. It's sort of like being stuck in Hawaii. I am very hopeful for this to be resolved quickly, as are all my Chinese friends here. Seth

Subject: RE: BS: Down and out in Hainan.
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:30 PM

On a related subject, the US State Dept has issued a warning for Americans travelling in China. This is not a political move, this is based upon the current list of Americans held there today for speaking views unpopular to the Chinese gov't and the experiences of several others recently detained and interrogated for their political speach.

I hope all goes well Seth (others). I trust you are in good hands, but thought you might appreciate seeing the news. I will post this same text to the other "China" thread - to be sure the word gets out.