POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 07:36 PM

Wavestar,

What I don't understand is the contention that MAV and others seem to be making that each party should be the most extreme versions of themselves they can be.

Let me clarify then, the battle is not between Rs and Ds, but between conservatisim and liberalism. What results when compromise occurs is wish-washy moderatism. (Not a real policital position but a result of both)

Anyone who calls themself a moderate is just afraid to take a position or display any guiding principles. These politicians are the real liars (regardless of party) and will vote by public opinion poll to make sure they always get re-elected in order to perpetuate their cushy political careers.

Extremismof any sort is almost never the most practical or rational application of ideas or idealogies

Following the Constitution is not extremism.

Let me borrow a phrase and ask you to name all the great moderates who made their mark in history.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

Seems to be back on point, so continued HERE

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Turtle
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:24 PM

Let me echo what Susan A-R said. I too am a left-of-center Vermonter (okay, currently living in Minnesota, but always a Vermonter) who has voted for Jeffords repeatedly, and sat in in his office in Montpelier on occasion. (That occasion was the beginning of the Gulf War; six or seven of us ended up in Jeffords' office as the discussion before the vote was taking place; and after a while Jeffords got on the phone and talked with us for forty-five minutes about his vote. He didn't agree with anything we said; we knew we were unlikely to change his mind; but he listened to us and discussed the issues with us gravely and respectfully.)>br >br I listened to Jeffords' speech last Thursday, and saw the integrity that I've often voted for. I don't always agree with him politically, but neither (obviously) do the hard-line Republicans. He's been unbeatable in Vermont for decades (so much so that more than once the Democrats haven't even bothered to run a candidate opposite him), and NOT because he's a Republican.>br >br Put me on the proud-to-be-a-Vermonter list. Thank you, Jim!

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM

Ain't it the truth, LH? **BG**

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:15 PM

" people who will pick holes in your arguments, point out how absolutely faulty your whole viewpoint is and how much you are in need of reassessing your entire grasp of reality, remind you what a dense, witless goof you are, and so on."

Well put, Little Hawk! :)

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

Yeah, sweeping statements are great fun! Of course, they do leave you open to vicious counterattacks by people who will pick holes in your arguments, point out how absolutely faulty your whole viewpoint is and how much you are in need of reassessing your entire grasp of reality, remind you what a dense, witless goof you are, and so on.

It's that kind of zesty repartee that has made these political threads such a going concern on Mudcat... :-)

Good thing I admitted to the tongue in cheek...

- LH

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:19 AM

We've had our share of smart guys - both Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton we're men of high intellect, who dissapointed their constituents while in office. Politic success is not dependent on "book learning". The "C" student in the White House is smart enough to surround himself with packagers and handlers who know how to work the system and sell the product. In this way he's a lot like Reagan, but without the baggage of principles.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:26 AM

Ebbie: an interesting way to put it. LH hasn't needed much encouragement before, seems to me, but I'm sure he will take your advice to heart. Sweeping statements are right down LH's alley! **BG**

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:09 AM

Keep that tongue firmly in there, LH, because those are sweeping statements.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:33 AM

Susan A-R! Good to hear from you! Havent' seen you online in awhile. I've missed you!

Alex: You're a riot! Really funny!

LH, don't get carried away. Everybody knows Bush is stupid! I'm sure all of us in the US of A, though, appreciate your assessment of our voting habits.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:06 PM

Actually, here's a scary possibility...

Maybe Bush actually is very, very smart! Smart enough to appear stupid enough to get elected...

Why am I saying this? The American public is nervous of really smart men, and does not generally like voting for anyone whom they instinctively feel might be smarter than themselves.

That's why Adlai Stevenson never had the ghost of a chance. Remember him? Too intellectual.

Americans will always vote for a war hero, a guy who grew up in a log cabin, a jus' plain folks type of guy, or a good ol' boy, before they'll vote for a "pointy-headed intellectual".

Do you think Pierre Trudeau would ever have gotten elected in the USA? Not a chance! The guy was brilliant, and everyone could see that. He was so smart that it even made Canadians nervous...

(this whole post, BTW, is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but it does make a certain point concerening American politics that I think is valid at the same time)

- LH

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Susan A-R
Date: 31 May 01 - 09:34 PM

Getting through this thread has been interesting. As a Vermonter who is an independent, leaning to the left of the democrats, I have voted for Jeffords. I've also sat in in his office. He generally does what he feels is right, and is a decent listener and good human being. I'm pretty proud of him, and he probably was elected by a lot of democrats, independents and republicans. frankly, Doug, our Governor, a democrat in name, is more conservative than Jeffords. I'm also pretty sure that, if Jim had to run for his seat, He'd win, but what a waste of time and money. No one has given him a serious race in years. I don't see anyone in the Vermont republican party calling for a special election, cause they know they'd lose big time.

I'm proud of my entire delegation. Now 2 out of 3 are independents, like many Vermonters, including me.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:49 PM

That Guest up there was me. I now have my (good?) name back.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:43 PM

Mousethief, they now have a dress code in the White House- suits instead of blue jeans, ties instead of open collars- surely that gives the perception of integrity? And perception, as we know, is all important. You can get away with a lot as long as people perceive you as doing the right thing...

I'm just glad there are sites like Mudcat around, keeping people sane and aware. Paraphrasing someone else: Keep telling big lies long enough- and people will believe it. In the mass, Americans may easily buy into it. I'm waiting for the day when the masses start thinking of the Bushie as being cute, with his mangled syntaxes and all; I have already heard the view that he really is smart, that he is just lulling his enemies into a false sense of security...

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 01 - 12:39 PM

The promise to "restore honor and integrity to the White House" was a perfect campaign promise -- it smeared the incumbent administration (including the Democratic candidate for President), but its meaning was strictly in the eye of the beholder, so the promiser didn't have to worry about being held accountable. Pure snake oil -- it's amazing that anyone took that seriously.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 11:43 AM

Oh --hahaha-- John P, --he he he-- you didn't believe that --snork-- thing that Dubya said --giggle-- about bringing "honor and integrity" --guffaw-- back to the White house --bwahahahaha-- did you?

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: John P
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:32 AM

Yes, it would be nice if the Dems and Reps would learn to work to together. But after eight years of attack dog tactics from the Rs in congress, I'm afraid the Ds are seeing this as payback time. As long as we are locked into this two party system, we will have adversarial politics that doesn't accomplish much of what needs to be done.

Since the country seems to be so evenly split between moderate conservatives and moderate liberals, one thing that would help would be if President Bush lived up to his promises to be a consensus builder who will work with both parties. He also promised to bring honor, integrity, and a sense of morals back to the White House. Perhaps if he took all that to heart and did the right thing and nominated some moderate or even slightly left of center judges we could avoid some of the the worse gridlock. Maybe if he were honorable enough to govern in a way that took into account the views of the majority that didn't vote for him, we could get something done. But, of course, he can't even listen to the views of the moderate members of his own party, or avoid being a bully when they don't agree with him.

I'm hearing stories about White House staffers high-fiving each other when they managed to publicly humiliate Jeffords for not automatically falling into step with the President's agenda. Why do these people still have jobs? Remember the whole honor and integrity in the White House thing?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 01 - 04:11 PM

Yes, consensus is virtually impossible to achieve in a system founded upon adversarial principles...and that is the whole problem in a nutshell. That's why I would be in favour of abolishing political parties altogether and voting for individuals instead, as is done in local city councils all over the place. Political parties are divisive and self-serving by their very nature. A council that meets as a single united body (combining various different viewpoints) can formulate policy in a far healthier manner than a government divided into partisan power blocks that struggle to humiliate and undercut each other at every turn.

Native American society was built upon consensus, but the modern political system is built upon combativeness.

- LH

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Wavestar
Date: 30 May 01 - 04:10 PM

I agree, Doug, it would be nice if BOTH sides would work together. In the meantime, though, I'll stick with gridlock, because although there are Republican congressmen and women that I respect and agree with, the ones currently at the top of the party aren't they. (Read: Bush.) As long as his is the agenda, I'll stay with gridlock. What I don't understand is the contention that MAV and others seem to be making that each party should be the most extreme versions of themselves they can be. Extremismof any sort is almost never the most practical or rational application of ideas or idealogies.

-J

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 03:56 PM

Indeed, gridlock is a huge victory. It means the government are interfering in our lives far less than usual.

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 30 May 01 - 02:38 PM

The problem with consensus building is that it takes two to tango. Anyone who believes that the Democrats have made any effort at all to build a consesus evidently has not witnessed what the Democrats did prior to Jeffords leaving the GOP. The Democrats, under Daschel, did everything they could to block any legislation proposed, and any appointment the President wanted to make. That's consensus building.

Consensus building in the minds of most liberals appears to be the Republicans rolling over and saying to the Democrats, "Oh, you don't like this piece of legislation? You don't approve of this appointment? Let's scrap it then!"

Now that the Democrats are in the majority in the Senate, the Republicans will assume the former role played by the Democrats. What we will see, I believe, is gridlock like we have never seen before. I assume most liberals will view that as a victory.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:47 PM

Cal Thomas/Chicago Tribune (One of 'yours', mav):"There are plenty of people to blame for the debacle that has put Democrats in the majority for the first time since 1996, starting with the political novices who thought they could 'punish' Jeffords because of his refusal to vote for the Bush budget. Jeffords (from Vermont) was not invited to the White House for ceremonies honoring a Vermont teacher.

There was also talk among some Republicans of further punishing Jeffords by canceling dairy support benefits, which go to farmers in Vermont and throughout the Northeast. You can do that with a solid majority but not when the Senate is divided 50-50. The White House denies any plans to punish Jeffords but no one believes it."

Then: "Democrats play to win; Republicans play to be liked." hahahhahahah Are you listening, MAV? hahhahahhah

Ebbie

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:22 AM

I think the point keeps getting lost as we fumble around the concept of what "loyalty" means in the political context. Bush campaigned as a consensus builder - one who would allow disparate ideas to be brought to the table so that better decisions on policy could be formed without the rancor that was the legacy (at least according to the Republicans) of the last administration.

Instead, Mr. "What you see is what you get" shut out even the voices in his own party who weren't willing to swallow his package whole. He is a liar and a transparent shill for big business and the oil industry. Cheney is getting better, though - I hardly see his lips move when Bush speaks anymore. The sooner this sorry bunch gets packed off, the better.

John P - I couldn't agree with your post more.

Mav - It's hard to accept when your guys let you down (like Clinton did for so many Democrats). But if you keep trying to defend the indefensible you might begin to lose credibility.

Later, folks.
Bart

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,BobP
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:01 AM

Actually he made it his specific business to assist in the tax bill passage.

It turns out to be the big "Ed" bill that passed with ease in the house last week that lies at the bottom of this strange business.

Apparently the only way to stop this legislation is to kill it in a senate committee and no existing chairperson wanted to take the heat, so Jeffords was drafted.

And, the first sentence in the post above makes no sense, Jeffords has always voted via a different drummer.

If losing Jeffords makes the repubs more detestable, how does that help?

Seems to me if the repubs become totally dispicable, the end product is a one party system.

Personally, I don't want to see Buchanan or Duke on the national political stage, and losing Jeffords enhances the chance that they'll be back.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: John P
Date: 30 May 01 - 09:42 AM

OK, back to Jeffords: Why is it that political parties feel they have the right to try to force their members to vote a certain way? I've heard both Republicans and Democrats say things like, "This vote is a real test of party loyalty. A wrong vote here loses you the support of the pary." Why would anyone belong to any party that would do that? A congressperson disagrees with the party line on a vote or two and gets cut out of the flock? How does that make any sense? It certainly seems to have backfired on the Rebublicans this time.

I wish they were all independants, with membership in several policy-based parties. A senator could vote with the Fiscal Conservatives on financial matters, the Green Party on conservation and ecology, the Socialists on health care and insurance, and so forth. We could tell a lot about a politician's viewpoints by reading a list of his or her party affiliations. As things are now, as far as I can tell, Republicans and greedy power-hungry jerks that I rarely agree with and Democrats are greedy power-hungry jerks that I agree with only slightly more often.

What happened to the Republican party, anyway? When did fiscal conservatism change into endless mindless calls for tax cuts? Have any of them ever consulted a financial counselor? There is no finance person in the world who doesn't say that getting out of debt comes first. Pay off your debt, then start saving. It seems pretty basic, and anything else seems fiscally irresponsible. I think what's really going on is that the rich people who chose George Bush for president are getting rich off the interest we are paying on our national debt. They also don't like having government regulations on big business, so they like a cash-strapped congress and executive branch that can't afford to pay for regulatory laws and rules. They like poor people to have fewer social services available, because that makes the peons more dependant on their employers for the basic things like food and shelter. Someone who will starve if they lose their job is more likely to put up with being mistreated and underpaid. Of course, the tax cut also gives those rich folks even more wealth. I suppose if I had ten million dollars I would feel a burning need to have twelve million instead. Greedy jerks.

All this huge tax cut is going to do for me personally, apparently, is provide about half of one month's house payment. In exchange, I get a government that can't afford to do anything, including getting out of debt. I like regulation. I think it is pretty obvious by now that businesses don't regulate themselves. They are not good neighbors, they don't care about anything except maximizing their income, and they are willing to make decisions that are disastrous for all of us in the long term in order achieve some very short term gains. They need to be watched constantly, and slapped down hard when they don't behave. We are losing our little remaining ability to do that. My taxes are high, but I can afford them a lot more than I can afford a poverty-stricken government.

The only regret I have about Jeffords' defection is that he didn't do it in time to stop the tax cut idiocy.

John

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 29 May 01 - 07:05 PM

Hey Mouse,

Easy there,

So MAV, you're saying it's okay for you to name-call here, because someone in Washington DC who's never even heard of Mudcat calls names?

It's ok for you and me to call public figures names, that's just the way it is, always has been always will be.(First Amendment right?)

I don't think it's ok for ME to call anyone here names, and except for playing around with some people's screen names, I don't think I have.

You're Alex or Mousethief, a pretty good guy, and hopefully if we ever meet, my friend.

When I see people talking about right-wing extremists, conservative morons etc. I don't take offense, but I may fire back in kind.

If an individual gets vulgar or downright nasty, I try to either make fun of them or at least be acidly confrontational without resorting to potty words.

Sometimes I get some chuckles from the audience, sometimes I don't.

To see more arguing

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:28 PM

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:25 PM

I don't know why, but I'm getting a good laugh out of all this. :-D MAV, you have successfully hijacked another political thread. Be afraid, liberals, be very afraid!

I reminds me of guerilla theater in the late 60's.

I'm gonna go polish up my Che Guevara memorial plaque and sing antiwar songs to calm my nerves until this whole thing blows over...

- LH

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:48 PM

So MAV, you're saying it's okay for you to name-call here, because someone in Washington DC who's never even heard of Mudcat calls names? I fail to see the logic.

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: John P
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:17 AM

Mav, I am just asking you to be a better person. Defending your actions by saying that others do the same thing so it's all right if you do it is not a step in that direction. Please take responsibility for your own actions.

John

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:20 AM

argue: To debate, discuss, bring reasons for and against...to persuade by discussion and reasoning...to maintain a position by giving reasons...to reason, dispute keenly.

It really is possible...

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:53 PM

Carol, I think he likes to argue.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:00 PM

"Looks like this has become a thread about MAV instead of Jim Jeffords."

That's the idea isn't it?

But surely the point of the Jeffords thing is that here you have a party machine that has scraped into power with a razor thin majority (and a very questionable one at that), this was achieved on the basis of a pledge to act moderately and inclusively. It then proceeds to act as if it had a landslide majority and a massive mandate.

In those circumstances it is hardly fair to criticise someone for sticking to the policies they were elected on, and dumping the political affiliation that is now being used to overturn those policies.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:59 PM

Hey Little Hawk,

I NEVER get my panties in a bunch.

Mouser,

I don't believe I've ever seen Clarence Thomas called "Uncle Tom" at mudcat

No, probably not, when I said "your side" I was referring to the democrat black caucus of the House of Representatives. The NAACP did it too I think.

I've always been talking exclusively about national figures.

Carole,

Looks like this has become a thread about MAV instead of Jim Jeffords

Yes, funny how that happened isn't it? I didn't do it on purpose....Honest.

Thank you Mr M.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:13 PM

What's he trying to do, kendall?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:05 PM

Neither did I until I realized what he was trying to do. You gotta give him credit, he knows what buttons to push!

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:37 PM

The usual result of his infantile comments.

Kendall:
While from your description he may suffer from MPD, the only MAV we get to know here is the one that comes across on the forum.

Can you spell "asshole?"

I don't find what you style his "leg pulling" to be the least bit amusing or entertaining.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:32 PM

Looks like this has become a thread about MAV instead of Jim Jeffords.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: mousethief
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:19 PM

Mav, I don't believe I've ever seen Clarence Thomas called "Uncle Tom" at mudcat before. Can you provide a link?

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 01 - 05:15 PM

"Well, this is a political thread isn't it?"

"Look at me ya-boo sucks to all of you lot." That's a political discussion?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:38 PM

I can. "First amendment". There.

kendall, are you saying that MAV is actually a whiney, panty-wearing liberal masquerading as a passionate conservative???

My god, that would be leg-pulling on a truly Olympic scale at this point.

It's a shocking assertion. Just who is pulling whose leg around here is what I want to know...

- LH

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:21 PM

I have met MAV. He is anything BUT a moron, no my friends, he is a world class leg puller, and, as long as we resist, he will pull even harder. Can you say "First amendment?"

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:06 PM

Christ, Mav, you truly are an total effing moron after all

Thanks, you're so "thoughtful" and say the nicest things.

How about a little tolerance here?

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:40 PM

does the term 'bear baiting' mean anything to some of you?

Look it up

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:23 PM

Now John, you don't suppose having that sort of demonization crap constantly said about you might get your dander up, do you?

Your own obnoxious behavior, of course, plays no part in this?. Puh-leeze! Christ, Mav, you truly are an total effing moron after all.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:19 PM

Dear Peg,

All the Vermonters I know are thrilled about this...as is just about every other human being I have spoken to about it so far. :)

Could be, but many hardcore liberals nationwide are not too happy with him.

Check this out, especially the part about the potential for the public's perceived notion of "democrat obstructionism"

PO'd Los Angeles Times Liberal

Miller called him a Double Double-Crosser!

That's why I say he'll get nothing. His name is MUD....

Gee......! Maybe he could become a MUDCATTER!

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Peg
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:14 PM

the thing about those online polls is, anyone can vote as many times as they want...and just like "exit" polls, people are notorious for lying, just to shake things up...

All the Vermonters I know are thrilled about this...as is just about every other human being I have spoken to about it so far. :)

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Bob P
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:11 PM

Here's a scenario I would have gladly accepted. Well, the mid-term election results have just come in.

Down in florida the new vote counting machinery worked fine, no recounts are planned. For the first time in many years the voters, not the lawyers, have determined the outcome.

And, this just in . . . the dems have recaptured the house with a plurality of twelve seats, and the switch announced by Senator Jeffords last night added to the gain of three seats in the senate gives the party of Jackson back to the people.

Things are looking down for King George!

Well, he surely had his chance.

What? Oh that was the a dream? Damn shame!

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:47 AM

To John P;

Hmm, I was enjoying this thread until Mav showed up

Well, this is a political thread isn't it? Its title implies that it is.

Mav, is there any way you could be a little less offensive in your posts?

Well, I suppose, but the title of the thread and the posted insults to Republicans was in itself pretty offensive, seems the tone was already set.

Your nicknames for our political leaders are childish and insulting

I'm sorry I called Arlen Specter "Specter the Defector" and Trent Lott a "Spineless Weasel". Of course your side calling W a "moron", "idiot" and worse should go unchallenged.

Then there's Justice Clarence "Uncle Tom" Thomas, Newt Gingrich, Judge Ken Starr and of course President Reagan, who's under constant attack and currently languishing in the grip of Alzheimers.

Why can't you just discuss things like a normal adult?

You mean like this?

And for that he has been absolutely pilloried by Bush, Lott, and their right-wing henchmen. Me, I think even the revised tax cut is still pretty much a sop for the rich, but I've still got to admire Jeffords for sticking to his principles

Now there's some DEEP thought....Bush and Lott are NOT RIGHT WING.

The idle rich barely get taxed already (I've explained that in detail), the high paid WORKING AMERICANS are who carry MOST of the income tax burden.

Jeffords has no principles, he's a foot dragging, self serving obstructionist as are most of the "moderates".

It usually causes you to come across as a reactionary.

So what? Someone has to challenge the left-wing extremists.

re.ac.tion.ary n. an advocate of reaction.

re.act.tion n. 1. a return or opposing action, influence, etc. 2. a response as to a stimulus. 3. a movement BACK to a former more stable condition.

Since "reactionary" is the opposite of "thoughtful"

No it isn't, unthoughtful or thoughtless are opposites to thoughtful.

it doesn't give me much faith in any facts you try to present

Well that's a hell of a note, either they're facts or they ain't!

Mav is not an adult, John. He's a spoiled, opinionated, not too intelligent little brat throwing tantrums & trying to shock mom & dad

Now John, you don't suppose having that sort of demonization crap constantly said about you might get your dander up, do you?

and if you check back, often a lot more childish and offensive

Yes, in fact I urge you to research my posts and see just how offensive my OPINION is.

Here's the dirty little secret. It's not my vulgar language (I don't do that)

It's not that I insult individual posters (unless they have attacked me).

It really is my willingness to stand up to the demogogery, lying and mean spirited attacks of the caring, compassionate, tolerant and THOUGHTFUL liberal anti-Constitutional leftists found here.

When I make general (but true statements) they accuse me of name calling, I call it the "If the shoe fits" principle.

Actual name calling is more like; "GregF is a spoiled, opinionated, not too intelligent little brat throwing tantrums & trying to shock mom & dad.....childish and offensive", but I would never say anything like that.

GregF also says I'm...Best ignored & not encouraged- a lesson some refuse to learn

Yes Greg, you'd think you'd know better than to keep spewing your left-wing hate speech...it only encourages me.

Thoughtful enough for you?

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 01 - 10:58 AM

some folks' stock-in-trade, like Rush Limbaugh, is cantankerous exaggeration for the sake of some imagined effect, as if the world wont see their point unless it is sharp-edged and laced with invective and name calling ...."D'ashole " "whiney @$$ panty wearing liberal"....lots to consider about Jeffords and the situation in the Senate & Vermont, but it IS possible to talk it over without that level of diatribe.

...oh, it isn't, Mav?...sorry, I meant is is for some of us.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:52 AM

Mav is not an adult, John. He's a spoiled, opinionated, not too intelligent little brat throwing tantrums & trying to shock mom & dad. He's been just this way since he was inflicted upon the forum by Uncle Jaque (who seems proud of his creation; rather like Dr. Frankenstein) and if you check back, often a lot more childish and offensive. Best ignored & not encouraged- a lesson some refuse to learn.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: John P
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:27 AM

Hmm, I was enjoying this thread until Mav showed up. Mav, is there any way you could be a little less offensive in your posts? Your nicknames for our political leaders are childish and insulting. Why can't you just discuss things like a normal adult? It usually causes you to come across as a reactionary. Since "reactionary" is the opposite of "thoughtful", it doesn't give me much faith in any facts you try to present.

John

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:39 AM

Dear Carol,

I don't know if it's a scientific poll or not.

What is scientific is the pendulum swing of the Vermont voters back towards the Republicans as seen in their legislature's composition after the "domestic partnership" legislation hit home.

I guess what gets me the most is the way Jeffords took advantage of all the Republican volunteers (kids and elderly) and contributors who helped his campaign, and the Vermont GOP who prevented a primary just for his benefit.

There's nothing kind, caring or compassionate in that kind of double-cross no matter in which party it happens.

This should have happened either before or LONG after the election.

It's no secret that the GOP and the US is moving to the right. One of the reasons for x42's popularity was his signing into law most of the CONTRACT WITH AMERICA. This has been but a symptom of that shift. There are many democrats who are also leaning conservative as can be seen in some of the recent votes. (Did you know David Bonnier is pro-life?)

It pleases me that the liberal Republicans have been relegated to the status of irrelevance (as they should be). I would think the democrats would like to have their party cleansed of those "rotten conservatives" as well so that their brand of ideology could be preserved.

'til next time,

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:25 AM

I'm re-posting my last post here, because I can see that it is doing the 'amazing disappearing post trick'...

I just finished videotaping the Meet the Press interview with Senator Dashcel (thanks for the heads-up, MAV!) so I can provide direct quotes if there are any misunderstandings about what was said by whom.

Here's what I find to be a bit of a conundrum...

There are some people in this discussion who are suggesting that Jim Jeffords left the Republican party for self-serving reasons (ie: accepted a bribe in the form of a committee chairmanship).

Some of these same people are also suggesting that the majority of voters in Vermont are/were not happy with this move on the part of Senator Jeffords. It has even been suggested that public opinion on this issue was known before Jeffords announced his decision.

Here's what's got me puzzled... If Jeffords was acting out of self-interest, and if it was known that the majority of voters in Vermont would not be happy with this decision prior to his having made it, why would he do it? It would certainly ruin his chances of getting re-elected.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:19 AM

I just finished videotaping the Meet the Press interview with Senator Dashcel (thanks for the heads-up, MAV!) so I can provide direct quotes if there are any misunderstandings about what was said by whom.

Here's what I find to be a bit of a conundrum...

There are some people in this discussion who are suggesting that Jim Jeffords left the Republican party for self-serving reasons (ie: accepted a bribe in the form of a committee chairmanship).

Some of these same people are also suggesting that the majority of voters in Vermont are/were not happy with this move on the part of Senator Jeffords. It has even been suggested that public opinion on this issue was known prior to Jeffords' announcement of his decision.

Here's what's got me puzzled... If Jeffords was acting out of self-interest, and if it was known that the majority of voters in Vermont would not be happy with this decision prior to his having made it, why would he do it? It would certainly ruin his chances of getting re-elected. Even a committee chairmanship is not worth that.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 01 - 01:34 AM

Well, DougR, if it's the poll that's being conducted at this site www.burlingtonfreepress.com/, I think we can safely say that it's not a scientific poll.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:19 AM

Mav, I'm shocked at the result of those polls! You're not puttin' us on, are you? Everbody I have heard interviewed on televison from Vermont has expressed the opinion that the good folks in Vermont are going to be much happier with him for making the change! Daschel said this morning on the show (you watched so you know) that he didn't think it was necessary for Jeffords to resign and run for his seat in a special election because all of the people in Vermont were happy with his decision. I assume the Burlington Free Press is a right wing publication, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MAV
Date: 27 May 01 - 10:11 PM

You people crack me up. You'd think Jeffords became a democrat.

D'ashole bribed him with power but now that JJ didn't come through, he gets nothing. D'ashole said as much this morning on Press the Meat.

Personally I was glad to see the bastard go, he's not a moderate but just a whiney @$$ panty wearing liberal "Republican". The GOP gave him plenty of appeasement but he still made the inexplicable decision (self-serving political move).

But it may be a double cross, you might say he stomped on a big flaming bag of doo doo!

Now we have Specter the Defector appointed as "King of the RINOs. I'd just as soon see him take that rag tag bunch of "moderates" with him (including Mc*bleeping*Cain) and join Jeffords. The "Big Tent" ain't that damn big. (At least then we'd have a little more definition in the GOP delegation to the Senate.)

If he doesn't (which he probably won't) there's a nasty rumor going around that Zel Miller may unenroll as a democrat and return the balance of power in the Senate.

Meanwhile, a big Salute to Jim Jeffords for yanking the rug out from under the self important "moderates" by thrusting the GOP into the minority and requiring them to need only 40 votes to wreak major havoc.

mav out

PS A couple of polls from the Burlington Free Press:

Poll 1. (last week)
On Thursday, Republican Sen. James Jeffords will announce whether he is leaving the Republican Party. What should he do?

Stay Republican......50.1%
Become a Democrat....25.9%
Become Independent...24%

Poll 2.
On Thursday, U.S. Sen. James Jeffords announced he was leaving the Republican Party and becoming an independent. What affect will this have on Vermont?

Positive?.....21.4%
Negative?.....72.6%
Don't know.....3.3%

PPS...Enjoyed the Chanty sing, thanks.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 01 - 09:06 PM

It's a funny old world, innit?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 01 - 08:55 PM

A turncoat is someone who decides they are on the wrong side, and changes sides. It's the right thing to do sometimes, but you'll always be called a traitor by the side you're leaving.

I'm still a bit puzzled by all this. Apparently it doesn't matter how you vote on all the issues, but what does matter is whether you are officially signed up to one of the parties - even if you consistently vote the other way, any time you get a chance...

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: jeffp
Date: 27 May 01 - 07:58 PM

Let's face it; expecting anybody, no matter which side of the aisle they're on, to act counter to the side of the bread that is buttered, is expecting just too much.

jeffp, getting even more cynical than he thought possible

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 May 01 - 05:46 PM

Jeffords will still be Jeffords on votes, many of which will still be Republican ...what he really did was allow committee chairs to switch and give Democrats control of the 'process'...which in the Senate is crucial...it is still close, and even the Democrats will need to be careful what they do

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 27 May 01 - 03:51 PM

jeffp, good luck on the cook out!

I was listening to "Meet the Press," this morning, jeffp, and Senator Daschel was on with Tim Russert. Russert showed him a quote Daschel made in a newspaper when Senator Ben Campbell switched from the Democratic party and became a Republican. Daschel was quoted as saying that if Campbell wanted to be fair with the people of Colorado, he would resign his seat and run for re-election as a Republican in a special election. So there must be some provision for doing it. As you might imagine, however, he made no such demands on Jeffords.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: jeffp
Date: 27 May 01 - 02:41 PM

Doug, I was looking into the vacancy rules because of all the talk about resigning and running in a special election. A special election would only be held in Arizona. Therefore, the people who advocated that he resign and run in the special election as a Democrat or Independent are advocating something that could not happen, whether he wanted it to or not. That was the only reason for that bit of research.

Back to my holiday weekend. The weather cleared unexpectedly, so we're cooking out.

jeffp

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 27 May 01 - 08:01 AM

The democrats have been saying all along "You have gone too far."

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Peg
Date: 26 May 01 - 11:49 PM

Sorcha:

I have noted your laissez-faire attitude in several threads tonight...

is everything okay?

:)

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: LDave
Date: 26 May 01 - 11:40 PM

This could be a watershed event in American history. The Democrats and the "liberal media" are so spineless it took a Republican to stand up and say "You guys have gone too far."

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 May 01 - 11:23 PM

Can it possibly matter? (from Scorch, who seems to be real cynical tonight)

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 01 - 10:37 PM

I hardly think the term "Turncoat" applies here. A turncoat is a traitor. That's serious, but, a man who finally decides to do what he believes is right is hardly a traitor.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 26 May 01 - 08:45 PM

Well, McGrath, evidently the Governor would have reappointed Jeffords anyway. The Gov. was on Fox News yesterday and he is a great admirer of Jeffords. Not surprising since the Governor is a Democrat.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 01 - 07:58 PM

But there would be a vacancy if the fella had done what you suggested Doug, and resigned as senator with the intention of asking the voters to back him. Except that they wouldn't have a chance to back him, because the governor would appoint the replacemnt instead.

Every time a member switches parties in the House of Commons there are objections that it's unfair and they should resign and see if the voters would reelect them. That has happened, but very rarely. Winston Churchill was the most famous turncoat, did it twice.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:30 PM

jeffp: you researched the rule if there is a vacancy. There is no vacancy though. Jeffords is not going to be replaced by anyone from Vermont, he just switched parties. I would think the rules would be different for that. Evidently, there are none.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: BobP
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:24 PM

DougR, I, like many, don't even like that Ford became VP, then P without popular referendum.

I think that was the single biggest factor in his loss to Jimmy in 76'.

These guys can do whatever they like, politically, so long as they have the blessing of the voters.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: BobP
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:17 PM

Jeffords, the person is still in the senate; so "person" is not the issue. But Deception is!

I'm a product of the 60's. We took a skeptical notion to all things political back then; including party politics.

My concern is that this political scheme may lead to our trusted governmental "leaders" not being held accountable for their duties.

Committee chairmanships are nice, and the DC cocktail circuit will certainly be 'abuzz" this season. But what about issues? How are we going to know if Dubya is screwing around on our dime.

Now I was a Truman fan, somewhat. But he railed for years on the ol saw about "that damn do-nothing republican congress" that came in with the election of 47. So for three years the country stood politically frozen; thawed by Korea. He could have tried harder to work with them but railing was more in his nature and easier.

When hot spots like Haiti or the Balkans can erupt instantly or some cop does something stupid that causes folks to go into hysterics, the loss of duly elected government systems could cost lives while idiots scramble for glory (and avoid blame).

Ya see if the repubs are in control, they have no place to duck and cover when the heat turns on, they have to produce!

People are entitled, by virtue of last fall's election to that accountability, even if it happened by accident, and Jeffords confounded it.

Sadly, we won't know how what his conduct manifests till people start hurting.

Remember Or pwhich side is dragging efforts to

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:09 PM

BobP,

It was pointed out earlier in this thread, "that in the past two decades twenty or so Democratic legislators have switched to the Republican party. During the same period, the Republicans have lost two or three" (--DougR).

Do you hold the same view about Democracy being dead as a result of the Democrats switching to the Republican party as you do about Jeffords becoming an independant?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 01 - 04:29 PM

BobP, you seem to have this idea that people vote for parties and not for people.

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: BobP
Date: 25 May 01 - 04:20 PM

DougR

Agreement? 'Crats aren' bound by no stinkin' agreements.

They only negotiate when their pet puppies have something they want.

They keep republicans as pets so the voters won't get so discouraged.

When they are in control, the opposition can go to hell.

The Jeffords switch on the heels of the dangling chad election does not bode well for confidence in the two party system, otherwise known as, "what passes for democracy in these parts."

All the reteric won't disguise the fact that the political makeup of the senate does not reflect what the voters intended. If dem 'crats couln't prevail at the polls in house or senate, but take control anyway, then democracy is dead.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:52 PM

I don't think any of us should be surprised when politicians try to play events to their own and their parties' advantage. What I do (unfortunately) find surprising is when a politician actually stands up for his principles, even to his own disadvantage. I certainly hope that the moral points Jeffords has accrued from his action will stand him in good stead in the future, and that his career will not suffer because of it.

I have always thought that even politicians I disagreed with probably had the good of the country at heart, even when I felt that they were totally mistaken in their ideas. George W. Bush is the first one that I have seriously felt doesn't give a damn about any of us.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: jeffp
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:45 PM

Just did a little more checking. According to the US Senate site, Arizona is the only state that requires a special election to fill a vacant Senate seat.

jeffp

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Kim C
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:35 PM

Voted for Eisenhower 'cause Lincoln won the war.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: jeffp
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:26 PM

According to the U.S. Constitution, vacancies are handled as follows:

Article 1, Section 2 (with respect to the House of Representatives): "When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies."

Article 1, Section 3 (with respect to the Senate): ... and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.

However, this was modified by the 17th Amendment, which provides, "When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct."

Therefor, it appears, if I read these runes aright, that Representatives must be replaced by special election, but Senators are replaced either by appointment or by special election, depending on the laws of the particular state involved.

Interesting what you find out when you actually research stuff people have told you.

jeffp

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:03 PM

jeffp, reports I am hearing on the subject do not confirm your understanding. I just heard another report that when Sen. Campbell switched, Sen. Daschle derided him because he didn't resign his seat and stand for election as a Republican. In Jefford's case Daschel makes no such demand but instead, offers him a major Committee chairmanship.

I also heard an interesting item on the news last night. It seems that under the terms of the joint power-sharing agreement Daschel negotiated with Trent Lott at the beginning of this session, the shared leadership provisions will be in force through next year. I'm confident that the new Majority Leader will not try to renege on that agreement. Right?

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: SDShad
Date: 25 May 01 - 02:56 PM

For that sake of accuracy, Doug, what I actually said about Gramm was: "That's what Phil Gramm did when he was a House Democrat in 1983...." in response to your suggestion that Jeffords should resign and re-run as an Independent. I just didn't flesh out all the steps that led to him eventually being a Senate Republican. We're in agreement from the beginning that Gramm resigned his seat and ran in the special election as a Republican.

Shad

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: jeffp
Date: 25 May 01 - 01:42 PM

You'll notice that Gramm was a member of the House of Representatives when that happened. Vacant Senate seats may be filled by appointment, while House seats require a special election. At least that's the way I understand it.

jeffp

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 25 May 01 - 01:22 PM

Shad: according to a story originating with Knight Ridder Newspapers, you are mostly right, but not entirely, in your reply to my post about resignations of switchers.

"Sen. Phil Gramm, a Texas Republican, chose a different route (from Jeffords and others). He was a Democratic member of the U. S. House in the 1980s when, estranged from his party, quit his seat and ran in a special election for his House seat as a Repbulican. He won, then ran for a Senate seat a year later and won."

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 May 01 - 11:27 AM

I have really enjoyed the news coverage on this and the Republican spin docs trying to put the best possible face on the situation. Congrats to those Vermont voters who voted for the man and not the ticket.

Ohio has been well known as a Republican state, the home of Taft Republicanism, for many years but I have always had some respect for the voters here in the past several decades. Though far from Democrat, people here have often voted for the man and not the party, sending Howard Metzenbaum to the Senate for many years. We now have two "conservative Republicans" in the Senate, and yet these two men are far more flexible than that tag would indicate. Mike DeWine has shown himself to be very open to liberal ideas and causes and although distinctly loyal to his party, has also voted his conscience in many cases and championed family values in a distinctly non-Republican way.

Jeffords is a good man and the people of Vermont have much to be proud of.

Spaw

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 May 01 - 10:19 AM

This whole thing is an interesting study in how to successfully exercise political advantage (read that: POWER). The "Bi-Partisan" Bush administration (and their cronies in the Senate - Lott, Gram, Thurmond et al.), after bragging about their coalition building ability, chose to ignore the concerns and interests of those within their own party who did not toe the hard line. They chose to use their "power" to play the bully.

Jeffords realized that the only chance a moderate had to influence this administration was to stand up to the bully and leave the party. But Bush's people still think(if you can believe what Karen Hughes has been saying on the TV) that they as long as they say the moderate things, they can act as conservative as they please. They still think they have the power. They are still bullies and this has not taught them anything about "governing".

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: wdyat12
Date: 25 May 01 - 10:14 AM

Jeffords' move is not good news for Maine. Now we have no Senators or Congressmen in a Majority position. Maine always gets the short end of the stick, but we get plenty of tourists and low paying jobs.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 01 - 07:08 AM

Doug,..."come on over"... No thanks, been there, done that, got over it!

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 01 - 07:07 AM

Editorial in today's Burlington (VT) Free Press is worth reading HERE.

Reader poll in the same paper shows approval of Jeffords' action at 55%.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Brigie
Date: 25 May 01 - 07:05 AM

It is all very emotional........I think the world (it does go beyond the USA !) would have benefited more if the boss himself (Bush) had resigned! That is an opinion of a European who has never been to the great land!

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Wavestar
Date: 25 May 01 - 06:59 AM

I, like many others, am proud to be a Vermonter, and a Vermont voter. If there are voters of Vermont feel betrayed because they actually got a man who stands up for what he said he would, and his principles, and not what other people tell him to do, then they voted for the wrong reasons. I'm proud of Jim Jeffords, who before was a Republican I could respect, and is now an Independant I respect even more. Even furhter in his favour, he DID fight the tax-debacle as much as he could, and I think his actions were much in response to that, as well as Bush's betrayal of his commitment to Jeffords to fund special ed.

Jeffords isn't following the self-serving bent of either party - I believe he felt that his state and his nation would be better served if he did what he did. COngratulations to him - any man deserves respect for standing up for what he believes and doing his job. And I emailed him my support before he made the decision, but I'll do it again now :) He'll get my vote again for re-election.

BTW, Tedham, Bernie's registered as Independant, too, not socialist... though his leanings are certainly in that direction!

-J

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:56 AM

You live in interesting times my American friends

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: BlueJay
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:47 AM

I applaud Jefferd's move to Independance. If I were a Vermont Republican, that would stink a lot less than if he were to join the Democrats.

I empathise with Vermont Republicans who may feel betrayed. As a Colorado voter, I voted for Ben Knighthorse Campbell, as a Democratic candidate, who soon after the election defected to the Republican party.

I believe that Campbell's defection was simply a matter of political survival. Colorado is, unfortunately, a state where too many self-important guys have their wives drive their kids to school in gas-guzzling SUV's so they can put a kayak on the top two or three times a year. Campbell recognised this trend, and simply switched parties to keep his job.

Jefferds, on the other hand, has chosen to become an independant, though he will undoubtedly lose some political clout. Had Campbell shown the same political courage, I would be most supportive. But he took the cowards route, bending to the climate in which he would most likely get elected.

Way to go, Jefferds. I hope a lot more of our alleged representatives can find the courage that you have shown. BlueJay

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: SeanM
Date: 25 May 01 - 02:08 AM

I do find it strangely refreshing that the Republican leadership immediately started threatening filibusters and other wonderful maneuvers in their speeches regarding the changeover.

Hey... isn't that the EXACT same set of tactics the Democrats threatened to use, and were vilified as 'obstructionist' and the like?

Nice to know that assholes run in both Democrat AND Republican flavors.

Christ, this whole thing just makes me even more cynical...

M

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 01 - 01:45 AM

What I like best about the whole thing is that it is a slap in the face of the Republican senators who had apparently been telling Jeffords "you don't belong in the Republican party." He took them at their words, and now they have to eat them.

Now we'll see if the "bipartisanism" that Dubya has been gassing about it more than just gas -- can he really work with a democrat-controlled Senate? He has got a lot through so far by arm-twisting and strong-arm tactics (which of course is what finally drove Jeffords from the GOP). Now he will have instead to use tact. Is he up to it? Stay tuned!

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 May 01 - 12:32 AM

In the town where my brother lives, there lives a Republican woman from Vermont. She recently ran for office as a Democrat, with the support of Republican moderates, all of whom were terrified of the Religious Right.

She said, she had been a lifelong Republican, because the Democrats were the party of fiscal irresponsibility and Southern bigotry. How times have changed.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: MarkS
Date: 24 May 01 - 09:43 PM

Lets see. Jeffords was a Republicrat, and now he sits in the middle of the aisle, and everybody is happy.
Why do I feel it will just be business as usual in Washington?
Mark(grump)S

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 09:40 PM

Kendall, my friend, I just heard over the Fox News Network that in the past two decades twenty or so Democratic legislators have switched to the Republican party. During the same period, the Republicans have lost two or three (I think Jeffords is the third), so there his hope for you yet! Come on over!

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:50 PM

Doug, I sure do wish you were an asshole! It is hard to rag on a nice guy! Fact is, independents outnumber republicans and democrats put together in Vermont. Vermont has had many progressive firsts, among others, they were the first to vote down slavery.

Does anyone remember Ronald Raygun as a democrat? He was a staunch supporter of FDR and JFK. Did the dems call him traitor? How about Mayor Lindsey of NYC? was he villified?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:39 PM

As a voter in Vermont, I can say that I, for one will certainly vote again for Jim Jeffords, as I have in the past several elections. He is a man of integrity, who votes his own conscience, and considers the consequences of his actions thoroughly.

I'm not entirely certain that our "President" does this. He seems to think he has a huge mandate, and does not seem too interested in considering any ideas besides his own. Now we will again have dialogue, rather than orders given. While I realise that it has not been entirely smooth sailing for this new administration, they do seem to take the attitude that it ought to be. GUEST, it is significant that he is now an independant. He has change a whole lot of things (like committee chairs, as well as Majority Leader) but has not jumped on the D bandwagon. Yes he could always vote his conscience, but now, the Democrats will have much more to say about the appointment of judges, something I'm sure is not lost on the Republicans who spent so many years keeping benches empty during Clinton's terms.

But I must admit that I am very pleased to be a Vermonter, and proud of our delegation on Capitol Hill, as well as of the state Legislature that enacted the Civil Union law (which I hope manages to stand up to the people who would repeal it) (Please pardon the poor syntax there)

My friend called me just after the news conference to say "I haven't been so happy since Nixon resigned!" He's been thanking any Vermonter he's met all day since.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:08 PM

On the subject of questioning whether or not he left the Republican party because of promises made by Democrats, I think that's a double edged sword. Because it then opens up the possibility of discussion about whether or not the Republican party used promises to coax Democrats like Sen. Nighthorse Campbell, Sen. Shelby, Sen. Thurmond, Sen. Byrd, and Sen. Morse, to leave the Democratic party.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:08 PM

Jeffords' move may be the salvation of the nation. Consider the impact on potential Senate approval of the Supreme Court appointments to be made by the man who tells us his favorite Justices are Scalia and Thomas -- that's "Leave No Child Behind" Bush (unless, of course, that child needs Special Ed attention). Jim Jeffords may save a damn sight more than the caribou.

Sandy

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:07 PM

McGrath, I believe that is the way vacancies are filled due to death or resignation. Evidently I was mistaken about the facts regarding other Senators who had switched parties during their terms.

Melani, Greg and I are not getting nasty. This is just our way of discussing differences.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 01 - 06:29 PM

I thought that one of the things about the American parliamentary system was that it was expected that senators would and should be independent anyway, and that it was quite customary to have them vote against the party line. So what's the problem if one of them wants to express that more openly, and describe himself formally as "independent"?

Doug R suggests he should have resigned his seat, and asked the voters to vote him back in - but my understanding was that you don't have by-elections in this kind of situation - when a senate seat becomes vacant, doesn't the state governor appoint one of his mates, who is quite often going to be from another party from the previous senator?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:41 PM

Greg and Doug, please don't get nasty. I would really like to have an intelligent discussion of issues without name calling. I am assuming that there are some bad guys who don't care about anything but making a bigger profit, but what I would like to know is why a regular normal citizen who does not own an oil company thinks that the current Republican policies are the right way to go? (If you will excuse the pun.)

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:32 PM

And I'm sure, Greg, you feel perfectly justified in projecting the self-serving bent of the current Democratic left bent on anyone, right?

If you prefer the word, "defect" to "desert" okay by me. Defect seems to be the common term being used by the media.

As to whether or not certain promises were made by the Democrats, I guess we will have to wait and see, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:16 PM

I think the snubbing of Jeffords by G. Dubya & Co. had a lot to do with this. The message the Republicans were sending him was that if he voted his concience and opposed them, they would stomp him. Not inviting him to the "Teacher of the Year" ceremony when the teacher was from his home state was really rather nasty. And as the parent of a special kid, I was very interested to hear that he and Bush differed on Bush's cutting of the special ed budget.

I grew up in a family of Illinois Republicans, who were not nasty people. I find it really hard to believe that decent, normal Republicans around the country think it's a good idea to despoil wilderness areas and cut education funding. The few bucks I will get back as a result of lower taxes will not pay to educate my kid. I couldn't put him in private school even if I could afford it--there are no private schools that I have been able to find for a kid like him. The few special private schools that are around are for autistic kids with such severe behavior problems that the public schools can't deal with them.

My husband and I both work for our livings and don't depend on things like welfare or medicare, but there are really some things that just have to be taken care of by public funding. A monster tax cut is only going to hurt my kid.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:09 PM

He didn't "desert his party"- the party deserted him. And if the "Dems had made him an offer he couldn't refuse", he'd have declared as a Democrat, not an independent.

Don't project the self-serving bent of current Republican-Right practice onto everyone, Doug. This man doesn't deserve that sort of cheap shot.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: SDShad
Date: 24 May 01 - 04:37 PM

DougR wrote:

"I believe he is the first Senator that has not resigned his post first, and then try to regain his seat as a candidate of his new party."

Not even close to true. That's what Phil Gramm did when he was a House Democrat in 1983, but there have been numerous examples of sitting national legislators switching parties while in office. Just the Senators:

Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, CO (D to R 1995) Sen. Richard Shelby, AL (D to R 1994) Sen. Strom Thurmond, SC (D to R 1964) Sen. Harry Byrd, VA (D to I 1971) Sen. Wayne Morse, OR (R to I 1952, I to D, 1955)

Quite a few more Congressmen have switched from D to R in the last decade or so; several lost their seats at the next election, but not a one of them resigned first and then ran for their seat again as you suggest, Doug. That dog just won't hunt.

Shad

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 01 - 04:21 PM

1st rule of politics! Timing is Everything!

Quick, name all 10 New England Senators.

Funny, you mentioned Jeffords first.

Last week I'll bet it would have bee close to last.

You do realize he could always have voted as he chose.

Party has nothing to do with that.

And, he didn't join anything, just quit something.

We'll have to let the folks in Vermont decide whether he's a phony now or still "as advertised".

And, that tax thing isn't a done deal. . .yet!

Da heftygal ain't sung, anything could happen.

As some very wise person once said, "Never forget this is politics, not beanbag!"

And, last I checked, political stalemate doesn't necessarily bode ill for those in power.

This may hurt us peasants and leave dubya unscratched.

Fingerpointing is the #3 skill in poliland (right after getting elected and getting paid).

Last! When an issue arrises that riles the public and has no simple answers (science based) Pols traditionally turn to fingerpointing, but you cannot do that when your party has both house and senate.

Or perhaps you think the people will patiently to ride this out til fuel efficient cars replace SUV's or power plants are built or the Saudi's drop the barrel price.

Without question Clinton's most tenuous time was his first two years when 'crats had a lock on the hill.

It was after the 94' revolt, that he found time for "fooling around." Fingerpointing don't takeup much of your day.

My thoughts.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 04:01 PM

Just had another thought, Melani, if Jim Jeffords is so confident of his support back home, I wonder why he didn't follow the traditional way Senators who have previously deserted their party did?

I believe he is the first Senator that has not resigned his post first, and then try to regain his seat as a candidate of his new party.

I think the Democrats made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Mr. D. wants to be Majority Leader pretty bad.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 24 May 01 - 03:55 PM

Possiby, Doug, but then what is a Republican nowadays? Apparently not what it was when Jeffords joined the party.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 03:52 PM

Think there might have been some supporters who voted for him as a Republican who did not show up for his speech, though, Melaii?

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 24 May 01 - 03:50 PM

As for Jeffords' constituents who elected him as a Republican, did you hear them in the background as he made his announcement, chanting, "Thank you, Jim! Thank you, Jim!"?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 03:26 PM

I am truly delighted that so many of my Mudcat friends are having a good day because of the Jefford's move. I think he did what he felt that he should do, and I hope he finds contenment in his new role.

As to the tax cut, don't be surprised to see a larger cut than the 3.3 Trillion when the joint conference is completed it's work.

Not being cute or sarcastic, I truly am happy for you folks.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 24 May 01 - 03:15 PM

There may be a few upset Republicans in Vermont, but most of us are pretty happy with Senator Jeffords' move out of the Republican Party. Our other senator, Patrick Leahy is a liberal Democrat and our one congressman, Bernie Saunders, is the only socialist in Congress.

By the way, I sometimes see Bernie hanging out at the Champlain Valley Folk Festival.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 01 - 03:02 PM

I think I'm going to enjoy watching the news (News Hour With Jim Leherer) tonight.

I also think it would have been nice if he had done it before the tax cut travesty, but there's no way I'm going to look this gift horse in the mouth.

The world feels like a slightly brighter place today.

Carol

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: SDShad
Date: 24 May 01 - 02:59 PM

And in addition, the fact that Jeffords has promised Bush that his change of affiliation won't take effect until a conference committee works out differences between the House and Senate versions of the tax cut, and the bill is sent to the President, makes your statement even less sensical, Doug. Jeffords did not oppose all tax cuts; it's just that he (correctly) saw the original Bush plan as little more than a sop for the rich.

And for that he has been absolutely pilloried by Bush, Lott, and their right-wing henchmen. Me, I think even the revised tax cut is still pretty much a sop for the rich, but I've still got to admire Jeffords for sticking to his principles.

Shad

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 24 May 01 - 02:38 PM

No offense, Doug, but "It must be nice to have so much money that one got a tax cut" - would be more like it, I'm afraid.

I don't think the Jeffords change would have headed the tax cut off, though. It was going to be on the agenda regardless of who was in charge of the Senate; at least this way we'll see exactly how foolish (or successful) the tax cut idea is.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: DougR
Date: 24 May 01 - 01:04 PM

It must be nice to have so much money one doesn't need a tax cut. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 May 01 - 01:01 PM

Wise words Shula. I concur.

Rick

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Shula
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:59 PM

Dear Folks,

If only he had done this *before* the tax cut travesty!

Shalom,

Shula

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:21 PM

Dear Jeep: Just concider it a trade for Night Horse Campbell. Heartfelt Condolences to you and Uncle Jaque, Congrats to the rest of the nation. ;-) Larry

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: SDShad
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:18 PM

Actually, Jeep man, Vermont voters seem to have elected him for who he is rather than for whatever meaningless capital letter appears after his name during TeeVee interviews. His popularity numbers have never been higher in Vermont than since he started to buck the Bush "Administration." They rightly don't give a damn about his political affiliation so long as they feel he represents them, which they obviously do.

But then again, this is the (so far only) state that has acknowledged same-sex unions, so I wouldn't count on any right-wing backlash in Vermont amounting to a hill of beans. But considering how the Republican power structure in D.C. is threatening to start gunning for Jeffords now, I do think this was a courageous decision. If I were a Vermonter, and even if I had voted against him last time, I'd sure as hell vote for him next time. Good man.

Oh, and I of course love the added benefit that this will finally result in South Dakota's own Tom Daschle (a fellow Dakota German-Russian, thank you very much) becoming Majority Leader. He deserves it.

S[outh]D[akota]Shad

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:10 PM

JM, I guess it depends on whether they voted by party or for a man. Think he is putting himself in line for a run for the presidency with liberal Republican and Democratic backing?

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Jeep man
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:00 PM

Does anyone remember the good voters of Vermont who elected a republican to the senate? I would feel sold out. Jeep

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 01 - 11:45 AM

I sent him an e mail to congratulate him. Maybe now we will get rid of Trent Lott and Dick Armey. Those right wing wackos never learn, they forced Dan Quayle onto Bush, and, I dont think it did them any good.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 May 01 - 11:40 AM

This is very good news -- both for how it will change the current workings of the Senate, and for the message it sends to the far-right elements of the Republican party. They might start to get the message that their increasing extremism will cost them members, and strength. It'll drive the message home that much more if a few other Republicans follow suit.

Subject: RE: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: Peg
Date: 24 May 01 - 10:13 AM

I just heard his announcement on the radio and it is being discussed on NPR on The Connection right. I think this may bode well for our country in the next several years...we can hope, anyway...

Subject: POL: A Salute to Jim Jeffords!
From: GUEST,Greg F. (remote location)
Date: 24 May 01 - 09:55 AM

Congratulations are due to Senator James Jeffords of Vermont for sticking to his principles and announcing as an independent- the Republican Party having moved so far to the right as to be barely recognizeable as the Party he joined 30 years ago.

Here's hoping that other Republican moderates (an endangered species for some years) will follow suit.

Best, Greg