Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4

Subject: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:58 PM

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to Parts 1-3. I've started part 4 to continue and finish my study focusing on the US versions of the Child ballads. I hope to have all 305 balalds roughed in on my site in the next few days.

I'm on 286. The Sweet Trinity and have a few questions. I can't seem to find the US broadside versions. There's only one at American Memory- no date given. Anyone have link to others?

The "Minstrel/college version" dating back to at least 1868 is found in several college songbooks, one with music. Was this part of minstrel shows?

Finally just a question about a footnote in Minstrelsy: ancient and modern, with an historical intr. and notes, by William Motherwell

Footnote: In the "Two Noble Kinsmen," the Jailer's daughter sings part of a song beginning— "The George alowe came from the south," regarding which commentators are silent, though I suspect it is the same song as one that is still known in Scotland by the name of the "Turkish Galley," or the "Lowlands Low."

What does Motherwell mean here?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:41 PM

Here's Child's info from Motherwell on 286, whose version is C f:

C f. 'The Turkish Galley,' Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 392, and Note-Book, p. 50.

1   I spied a ship, and a ship was she,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
And she was called the Turkish Galley,
She was sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
She was sailing in the Lowlands low.

2   'Master, master, what wud ye gie me
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
Gin I wud sink yon Turkish galley?
She's sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
She's sailing in the Lowlands low.

3   'I'll gie you gold, I'll gie you fee,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
Gin ye wud sink yon Turkish galley,
That is sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
That is sailing in the Lowlands low.

4   He bent his breast, and awa swam he,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
Till he cam to yon Turkish galley,
That's sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
That's sailing in the Lowlands low.

5   He had an instrument, made for the use,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
He bored nine holes in her water-sluice,
Left her sinking in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
Left her sinking in the Lowlands low.

6   Some took their hats, and some took their caps,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
All for to stop her watery leaks.
She was sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
She was sailing in the Lowlands low.

7   They took him up by their ship-side,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
They sewed him in an auld cow's-hide,
Left him sinking in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
Left him sinking in the Lowlands low.

Motherwell sent this copy to C.K. Sharpe in a letter dated October 8, 1825, in which he says: I also send rather a curious song, which perchance you may have seen, entitled 'The Turkish Galley,' the air of which pleased me much. But as I learn there are two other different sets of the words more complete than my copy, and with different airs, I shall defer sending the musick till I can send also that which belongs to the other copies.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

Here's a link to the sheet music of the minstrel version I posted on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-286-the-sweet-trinity.aspx

The lyrics are in the DT already. I'm not aware that the song was used in minstrel shows- but it seems possible it did.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:54 AM

Richie, Motherwell was probably confusing 285 and 286. He probably didn't have access to enough variants to make the distinction.

Thanks for starting the 4th thread. It makes it a lot easier to keep dropping in on.

The only American version I have at the moment is online at OpenLibrary.Org in 'Songs of Amhurst College' p101. It's obviously a minstrel version called 'Lowlands' with 2 verses and chorus. I could easily post it if you haven't got it. The second verse is most definitely a minstrel verse and nothing to do with 'Golden Vanity'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:52 PM

Here are the lyrics you mentioned from Carmina Collegensia: a complete collection of the songs of the American by Henry Randall Waite; 1868 ('Songs of Amhurst College' p. 101)

Same text without music: The American college songster: a collection of songs, glees, and melodies 1876

LOWLANDS

A boy he had an auger,
That bored two holes at once;
A boy he had an auger,   
That bored two holes at once;
And some were playing cards,   
And some were throwing dice,
The boy upset the tea-kettle
And drownded all the mice.

CHORUS.

As we sailed along the lowlands, lowlands, lowlands,      
As we sailed along the lowlands low.
And we buried him in the lowlands, lowlands, lowlands,      
And we buried him in the lowlands low.

Oh Pompey was the greatest man
That ever yet was born,
And Pompey was the greatest man   
That ever yet was born;
For he could play the banjo,   
And on the tambourine,
At rattling of the bones he was
The greatest ever seen.

Was the song documented on the stage? or part of a troupe?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:22 PM

I can't see anything earlier than 1868 for it. Btw, the words are posted here in the DT: LOWLANDS (minstrel show) (from the American College Songster).


The ballad index points out the refrain similarity to this songs:The Louisiana Lowlands of 1859, also referred to in Mudcat: 'Lowlands Away' - origins. (post by Charlie Noble)

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

I don't think there is anything to gain from comparing the refrain with TLL except perhaps it might have suggested linking the 2 fragments of verses due to the similarity in the chorus. I think there were several minstrel songs referring to 'Pompey' though the second verse certainly is close to the first verse of TTL. A major feature of the minstrel show as it developed in the second half of the 19thc was to include some very nonsensical but familiar verses with an easy repetitive chorus along with the usual instruments and wild antics. The Amhurst version is then quite typical of the genre.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:48 PM

Hi,

I'm looking at no. 295 and wonder if there should be an appendix for the US versions, possibly "Sally and her True Love Billy." The traditional ballad index lumps them under "A Rich Irish Lady" which doesn't seem to be an early version.

Barry points out a melody from 1790 "Fair Sally."

Steve Gardham has done some research into this ballad pointing out that Child's B version is a compilation and not traditional.

Any other US versions?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:21 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index lists Ironhead Baker's "Rich old Lady as a version of 'Farmer's Curst Wife." It's found in the DT. Is it?

Traditional Ballad Index:

RECORDINGS:
James "Iron Head" Baker, "The Rich Old Lady" (AFS 201 B1, 204 A1, 206 A1, all 1934); "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (AFS 617 A4, 1936)
Horton Barker, "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (on Barker01) {Bronson's #33}


THE RICH OLD LADY (From DT)

Once I knowed old lady
Round Tennessee did dwell
She had a lovin' husband
But she loved other mens as well

cho: Love my darlin' O
Love my darlin' O

"I'm goin' down to the doctor's shop
Just as straight as I can go.
See if I can't find sumpen 'round that place
That'll run my husband blind.

Anyone have Baker's "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (AFS 617 A4, 1936) text?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:48 AM

Richie,
Obviously some confusion here.

The text you quote is very definitely a version of 'Marrowbones' not a Child Ballad, although it has just as good a pedigree as TFCW.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:41 PM

Hi,

Need some help transcribing one of the African-American versions, esp. sixth stanza and last stanza. The last harkens back to the Scottish text in Child (version B), [refer: Kittredge 1917 JOAFL]

She was seven year gaun, and seven year comin,
And she cried for the sowens she left in the pot.


THE FARMER'S WIFE- Sung by Joe Hubbard. Hamiltontown, near Wise, Va; Herbert Halpert, 1939.
(Listen: The Farmer's Wife)

I hooked up a hog and I went out to plough,
And how I got along I don't know how.

I seen Mr. Devil come slippin' through the field, says,
"One of your family I wish to steal."

"It's neither your daughter it's neither your son,
It's the old woman for the crimes she's done."

He picked up her up all on his back,
He looked like a pedlar with the pack on his back.

He took on to the forks in the road and he said,
"Old Woman, you're a terrible load."

He picked her up to feed it, and took on to the Devil's den,
And out run devils, nine or ten,

One little devil come climbing up the wall says,
"Take her back daddy she's a-gonna kill us all."

Seven years forward and seven years back,
He looked for the baccy she'd left in the cracks.

[Spoken: He musta had a terrible time wid her. . .]


Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:53 PM

Oh, here's the link to listen to the recording:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-farmers-wife--hubbard-va-1939-halpert.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:14 AM

Hi,

I've done some looking at US versions titled "Daddy Be Gay" (Farmer's Curst Wife). What is the origin of these?

What is the earliest date of the Mother Goose rhyme "The Old Woman Under the Hill" ?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:06 AM

Hi,

If you look on my site here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/daddy-be-gay--nye-oh-1937-rec-john-lomax.aspx

It might help answer the questions from the earlier post. I know Alan Lomax "collected" a similar version titled "Old Man under the Hill." Anyone have the lyrics and source for that version (Folk Songs of North America)?

Curiously the cowboy song (Farmer's Curst) appearing in 1910? by John Lomax has the same title. What is J. Lomax's source for the cowboy song?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:18 PM

Richie,
The lines you quote from Mother Goose rhymes are a common place.
i.e., they occur in various forms and form the first 2 lines of different rhymes.

If you mean the one that continues 'and if she's not gone she lives there still, the ODNR gives the earliest ref as The Academy of Complements' 1714.

I have a copy of 'Cowboy songs' but it doesn't give sources for anything. Come to think of it, neither does FSoNA.

Have you not got a copy of FSoNA? They're 10 a penny on EBay.

The lyrics in FSoNA are very different to those in Cowboy Songs. Which do you want?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:57 PM

I'll scan and email it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:05 PM

The FSNA version says, "Collected by John A. Lomax."

It's no secret that both Lomaxes (John especially) were occasionally sloppy - or creative - about texts, tunes, and sometimes even attributions. (Read, for example, G. Legman's contemporaneous review of FSNA in the Journal of American Folklore.)

Personally, I'm wary of all Lomax assertions about texts and tunes. The attribution to John may mean only that he collated this version from two or more originals. Maybe he used to sing it when Alan was a boy. Who knows?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:02 PM

Hi,

I'm getty ready add versions of Geordie Child 209. Does anyone have access to or know where I can find a copy of "The Green Mountain Songster" published in 1823 by an old soldier from Sandgate? According to Coffin there's a version Geordie (Georgie) in it.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:36 PM

Richie

The GMS version is printed here: Folkopedia - Charley's Escape (the last version on the page).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 10:09 PM

TY Mick!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 09:08 AM

Mick,
Is there a copy of this GMS online anywhere?

Isn't there also a 20thc book of that name also?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 10:12 AM

Steve

I couldn't find the GMS online. google books has an entry but no online version. Apart from the song I linked above, there are four others online at wikisource: Jane Jenkins, Lord Lovell, Renaldine and Kate and her horns. As far as I can see all other online reference to GMS are copies those four songs.

There is a modern book called The New Green Mountain Songster. - Traditional folk songs of Vermont, collected, transcribed, & edited by Helen Hartness Flanders, Elizabeth Flanders Ballard, George Brown & Phillips Barry, Yale UP, 1939.(also Folklore Associates 1966). It's not clear if everything from GMS is in this or not. I've seen it described as a revised edition, but also I think I saw it described as being named in homage to GMS.

There are several songs in the DT with NGMS as source and some from GMS, though the latter may all be via later republications by Flanders and others.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 05:41 PM

Thanks, Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 08:41 PM

I have the The New Green Mountain Songster. Flanders reprinted Cahrley's Escape twice but I wasn't aware that it was online.

GMS was compiled by a Revolutionary War veteran from Sandusky, VT, which possibly dates back to the 1700s.

The GMS is apparently housed at Baker Memorial Library in Hanover NH. Some of the texts have been published - not sure why the whole book is not available.

This is another example of an important book not available to the public. The same thing is true for many of the collections at LOC and US libraries. There's no money and no intiative to have the collected material made public (online).

Here's GMS version on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/charley's-escape--vt-pre1823-green-mt-songster-.aspx

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 08:54 PM

Hi,

Here's the link again. I've put on the first batch of versions of Georgie, mainly pre- 1920:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/charley's-escape--vt-pre1823-green-mt-songster-.aspx


R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 06:29 AM

Richie/Mick
In the absence of a full transcription, a list of contents and related Roud/Child/Laws numbers would be very useful. I'm particularly interested in early variants of 'Bramble Briar' Roud 18, Laws M32.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 09:45 AM

I checked the Roud index. All 109 entries with Source containing Green Mountain Songster are from the NGMS, so I assume the GMS is not indexed yet.

17 entries have Previous Source as GMS, all reprinted in other volumes. These are:

Joel Baker (4656)
Captain Ward and The Rainbow (224)
Charley's Escape (90)
Fair Damsel From London (180)
General Wolfe (961)
Jane Jenkins (731)
Johnny Scot (63)
The Labourer (19)
Lady Margaret and Sweet William (50)
The Shepherd's Son (11)
Sweet William's Ghost (50)
The Sailor's Bride (274)

(That's 12 songs - the others look like the same song printed in different places).

They are taken from Flander et al:NGMS; Flanders:Vermont Chap Book; Flanders+Brown:Vermont FS and Ballads; Flanders:Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England; Friedmann:Penguin Book of Folk Ballads;Frank:Jolly Sailors Bold

These are clearly not all the songs (they don't include some of the online ones), so unless someone comes up with a copy (or can get to a copy), there doesn't seem to be any more information available.


(Actually I can give you one more - The Jolly Thrasher No.92 in Notes and Sources for Folksongs of the Catskills: Supplement by Norman Cazden, Herbert Haufrecht, Norman Studer has a reference to NGS for version B)


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 12:40 PM

I've got everything there except Flanders VCB, and the Catskill's Supplement which PaulD has.

Thanks, Mick. Do you have your own indexes or are you using Roud?

I still am limited to Roud online (which I find unwieldy)at the moment not having Access 2010 on my new computer

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Feb 13 - 12:55 PM

That was from the online Roud index. I have my own copy of Roud but it hasn't been updated for a long time (although I think when I bought it it was supposed to have free updates; but when we moved I never notified Steve, so it's not surprising!). I have it in Access on my old XP machine, but I also converted it to a Prolog database which is what I used on my current Ubuntu machine. I can do more tailor made searches on the Prolog database (it would also have made your project for canonical titles easy to do).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM

Hi,

I contacted Dartmouth and they no longer have a copy of 1823 Green Mountain. They said to contact Vermont Historical Society- so I did- waiting to hear back.

I've found some interesting information on Geordie and need help sorting some of it out. Does anyone have Bob Coltman's email? I guess I could PM him on Mudcat. Need info on McAllister versions.

Does anyone have the informant's name for Niles 1932 version. An identical version has surfaced from KY (Roberts) and both are similar to Russell's 1936 recording and other Virginia versions.

Here's what I have so far:

Charley's Escape- (VT) pre1823 Green Mountian Songster
Georgia- Larkin (IL) 1868 Musick JOAFL
The Life of Georgia- Ashby (MO) c.1870 Belden A
George E. Wedlock- Dusenbury (AR) 1875 Randolph C
Georgie- Jencks (MI) c. 1876 Gardner
Georgie- Dunaway (AR) c 1897 Randolph D
Go Saddle Me- Wormser (MO) 1909 Belden B
Georgia- Shibley (MO) 1911 Belden C
Charlie Condemned- Williams (KY) 1911 Thomas
Charlie (Geordie)- Wells (NC) 1916 Sharp A
Charlie (Geordie)- Gentry (NC) 1916 Sharp B
Charlie (Geordie)- Buckner (NC) 1916 Sharp C
Georgie- McAtee (WV) pre1917 Richardson-Cox
Go Saddle Up- McAtee (WV) 1918 JOAFL
Georgie (Geordie)- Donald (VA) 1918 Sharp D
Charlie and Sallie- Elliott (PA) 1919 Shoemaker
Georgie (Geordie)- Bowyer (VA) 1918 Sharp E
Georgie (Geordie)- Boone (NC) 1918 Sharp F
Georgie- McNeill (NC) c. 1921 Brown No. 38(4)
Georgie- Hart (VA) 1921 Davis A
Geordie- Mulleins (VA) 1921 Davis C
   Geordie- (VA) 1921 Davis D
The Life of Georgie- Underwood (MO) 1928 Randolph A
Georgie- Waddell (MO) 1930 Randolph B
Georgie- Stikeleather (NC) 1925 Gordon
Lovely Georgie- Simmonds (NL) 1930 Greenleaf
Chappell The Death of Geordie- (VA) 1932 Niles
Georgie (Geordie)- McAllister (VA) 1935 Wilkinson
As I Walked Out on London Bridge- Russell (VA) 1936
Georgie- McAllister (VA) 1959 Clayton and Foss

Looks like about 30 versions and I have about 20 more to go:

http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-209-geordie.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 09:41 AM

Have you got all of those in Roud? Once I've got all of your list I'll check it against my indexes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:53 PM

Hi,

I haven't looked at Roud yet but I will after I put my 60 or so US versions on. Bronson is missing several versions from the Brown Collection. I need help identifying some of US version sources esp. Peggy Seeger, Doc Watson.

Peggy Seeger- US version (Source?)

As I walked over old London's Bridge
It was in the morning early
There I espied a pretty fair maid
Lamenting for her Geordie

She said "now saddle me my bly,
go bridle him right gaily,
and I will ride this live long night
and beg for the life of Geordie."

Also the late great Doc Watson's version- probably a local NC version I have the recording but not the source. Anyone?


Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:16 AM

Hi,

I've finished (for now) US versions of Bonnie George (James) Campbell:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-210-bonnie-james-campbell.aspx

If anyone has info about these three missing versions, please post:

I've yet to determine if Jean Ritchie's version (found in her book) and Evelyne Anderson Beers on the recording "Gentle Art" are tradtional.

Davis in More Ballads mentions a version from Boyd County, KY found in the records of Federal Writer's project but as far as I know this version has not surfaced.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:38 AM

Hi,

I've started US versions of Child 243 Daemon Lover (The House Carpenter): http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us--can-versions-243-james-harrisdaemon-lover.aspx

It seems to me, altho it's rarely punctuated correctly, that the standard opening stanza is a dialogue (maybe this is obvious but why not punctuate it that way?).

Here's the normal punctuation:

"Well met, well met, my old true love,
Well met, well met," says he.
"I've just returned from the salt water sea,
And it's all for the sake of thee."

This seems incorrect. It should be:

"Well met, well met, my old true love." (her)
"Well met, well met," says he.
"I've just returned from the salt water sea,
And it's all for the sake of thee."


In the second line he is responding to her.

What do you think?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:24 AM

An interesting idea, Richie. In most of the Scots texts listed in Child (243 C - F) it's very clear that the opening lines are spoken by the woman, but these usually begin: "Where have you been (my long lost lover etc)", rather than the "Well met, well met" formula common in the US versions.

However, the Distressed Ship's Carpenter version attributed by Child to the 'Rambler's Garland' of 1785, but appearing earlier in 'Diverting Songs' (1730s) - and which is thus is temporally intermediate between the 1657 Laurence Price broadside and those oral versions - does begin with "Well met...", but in this case it's equally clearly the returning mariner who is talking.

The US broadside copy often attributed to 'De Marsan', which is believed by some to be the template for many US versions, follows the same pattern as the (English) Distressed Ship's Carpenter - it's the sailor who says:

Well met, well met, my own true love
Long time have I been seeking thee
I'm lately come from the Salt Seas
And all for the sake, love, of thee

We had a really good discussion of the New England variants of the ballad here, in which Jon Minear supplied a number of texts. Amongst those you could find either protagonist uttering that first line:

Compare, for instance:

"Well met, well met, my own true love,
Well met, well met," said he...

[Belle Richards, Colebrook, NH]

...with:

"Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid,"
"No so very well met," said she...

[Elmer George, East Calais, VT]

The history of this ballad is quite tangled. I've formed the view that the US versions contain DNA from both English printed, and Scots oral versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 10:39 AM

Hi,

There are also US versions that begin "We've met" and "We'll meet." not recognizing or changing the old English/Scottish greeting "Well met."

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 01:51 PM

Hi,

I've put most of the US versions I have of the House Carpenter texts on my site with soem commentary and additional info:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us--can-versions-243-james-harrisdaemon-lover.aspx

I think there are close to 300 but I haven't counted them all- haha.
I'll at some point put all the music, I have some of the music.

Check it out!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 10:03 PM

Hi,

I've moved on but not finished the US versions of the House Carpenter.

I'm working on Child 248 and am a bit confused. Is "The Lover's Ghost" the origin of this ballad, as per Barry.

Is the tune: Crucifixion, Southern Harmony, p. 25.

Saw ye my Savior,
   saw ye my Savior,
Saw ye my Savior and God?
   Oh! he died on Calvary,
   To atone for you and me,
And to purchase our pardon with blood.

Was a parody written in circa 1776 titled "Saw Ye my Hero-- George? Would this mean that the ballad was present in the US at this time- posibly before the Herd 1772 version?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 10:10 PM

Another question or two---

The Lover's Ghost, a variant?? of Child 248, was collected at least four times by Karpeles. This text was taken from Fifteen Songs from Newfoundland, with piano score. Karpeles says in the introduction: "During 1929 and 1930 I paid two visits to Newfoundland each lasting about six weeks, and noted two hundred songs (including variants), from which the thirty songs in these two volumes have been selected." No informant or date are given.

Who is the informant? Is this the version covered by Karen James and also Peggy Seeger. What version did Barry Taylor collect? Where and when did Taylor collect it?


The Lover's Ghost- (NL) c.1929 Karpeles

Johnny, he promis'd to marry me
But I fear he's with some fair one gone.
There's something bewails him and I don't know what it is
And I'm weary of lying alone.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 07 Apr 13 - 10:26 PM

Here's a quote about the Isaiah Thomas Broadside Ballad Collection

Ballads and Songs for Boston in the War of 1812—the Isaiah Thomas Collection by Kate Van Winkle Keller

Some of the older songs have new verses reflecting a change in sensibilities. A transparent example of this is found in "Saw Ye My Hero George," a ballad in which Martha Washington wanders over the battlefield looking for her husband. The first, second and fourth verses date from the 1780s,modeled on an English love song from the 1760s called "The Grey Cock," (Child #248).

They are placid and removed in spirit. New romantic verses have been added as verses three and five through eight.

"The fields are cover'd o'er with streams of purple gore,
And the dead lie in heaps on the ground."

Such a graphic description would never have been put in Lady Washington's voice in earlier times.

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM

Richie - re Karpele's Lover's Ghost from Newfoundland, the Roud index lists 2 (both printed in Folk Songs From Newfoundland):

  Version a (pp100-101): 20 Sept 1929, Matthew Aylward, Stock Cove, NL
  Version b (pp101-102)   1 Oct 1929, James Day, Fortune Harbour, NL

(These two are the only 2 with Karpeles as collector and Child 248 as Other number; also the only 2 with Karpeles as collector and Lover's ghost as title).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 01:01 PM

Hi, Mick,

Here's the link:http://collections.mun.ca/PDFs/cns/Karples_FifteenFolkSongs.pdf

This is not Karpeles three other collected texts (the other is Gallahue- Bronson No. 4)

The Lover's Ghost- Aylward (NL) 1929 Karpeles A
The Lover's Ghost- Day (NL) 1929 Karpeles B
The Grey Cock- Gentry (NC) 1916 Sharp
The Worrisome Woman- Wallin (NC) c.1936 Yates
The Ghostly Lover- White (NL) 1929 Greenleaf
Margaret and John- Smith (NS) pre1950 Creighton A
Margaret and John- Young (NS) pre1950 Creighton B
Pretty Crowing Chickens- Presnell (NC) 1951 Warner
Pretty Crowing Chicken- Proffitt (NC) c.1960 REC
The Gray Cock- Clark (ON) 1961 Fowkes
The Lover's Ghost- (NL) c. 1929 Karpeles
Saw You My True Love John?- Couch (OK) c. 1900
The Grey Cock- Watson (ME) 1928 Barry
The Lover's Ghost- Gallahue (NL) 1929 Karpeles MS; Bronson No. 4
-----------------------

I'm missing this version--Here's a Health unto All True Lovers"
Maritime Folk Songs - anyone have it and can post it?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

Hi,

Here's what I have: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-lovers-ghost----nl-c1929-karpeles-.aspx

The melody arranged for piano by R. Vaughn Williams is Karpeles A version taken from Aylward. The text appears to be a compilation- at least that's what I think,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:03 PM

Richie - Here's the Here's A Health Unto All True Lovers from MFS. Notes say:

"Sung by Mr.William Gilkie and his mother, Mrs.Sandy Gilkie, Sambro, N.S., September, 1950.

Although this reminds me of "When Barney Flew Over the Hills to His Katie," and "The Drowsy Sleeper," it is neither, and I know of it from no one but Mr.Gilkie."

Let me know if you want the tune posted.

Mick

---

HERE'S A HEALTH UNTO ALL TRUE LOVERS

Oh here's a health unto all true lovers
And unto mine where'er she be.
This very night love I mean to be with you,
It's many's a long mile she is from me.

It's let this night be as dark as dungeons
And there no gay light all to appear.
My steps shall guide thee without a stumble
All in the arrums of you, my dear.

It's when he came to his true love's window
He gently knelt down all on the stone,
And through the keyhole he whispered slowly
Saying, "My jewels are you alone?"

She rose her head from her soft white pillow
And almost naked was her lily white breast,
"Who's there, who's there tapping at my window,
Disturbing me from my long night's rest?"

"It is your own true love, pray don't discover
But open the door love and let me in,
For I am wet after my long night's journey,
Besides I'm wet love unto the skin."

It's when this long night was passed and over
And then the cocks they began to crow,
We kissed, shook hands, I in sorrow parted,
I took my leave and from her did go.

Source: Helen Creighton, Maritime Folk Songs, originally from Mr.William Gilkie and his mother, Mrs.Sandy Gilkie, Sambro, N.S., September, 1950.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 04:08 PM

Richie
The Maritime Folk Songs piece at p63 you quote is not a version of Child 248. It's a version of Roud 22568 Night Visiting Song (My Master Title). I have studied all versions of all 3 ballads, Grey Cock, Willy-O, and Night Visiting Song and apart from a few Irish hybrids they are easily separated. I might add (IMHO) the Irish hybrids are vastly superior to any of the individual ballads.

I can easily scan you a version of MSF if you want to see it for yourself.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 06:14 PM

Hi,

TY Mick, if yo ucan do the ABC format I'd appreciate it. BTW is there a tutorial for doing ABC format? I read music proficiently (for a guitarist haha),

Steve-- Bronson lists as No. 10 MacColl's version of Here's A Health Unto All True Lovers- rightly or wrongly.

Under Roud 179 we find:

HERE'S A HEALTH TO TRUE LOVERS
Source Jim Carroll / Pat Mackenzie Collection   
Performer Cash, Andy   
Place collected Ireland : Co. Wexford / England : London   
Collector Carroll, Jim / Pat Mackenzie   
Roud number 179 | Roud number search

HERE'S A HEALTH UNTO ALL TRUE LOVERS
Source Jim Carroll / Pat Mackenzie Collection   
Performer Cash, Mary   
Place collected Ireland / England : London   
Collector Carroll, Jim / Pat Mackenzie   
Roud number 179 | Roud number search

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 06:38 PM

These 2 titles are either hybrids or you have an outdated version of Roud. They should be under 22568 with those titles. Some entries in Roud are inevitably based on titles and/or first lines where Steve hasn't actually seen a copy of the text. The separation of the 3 ballads has only been quite recent although Hugh Shields had a study published in 1976 that pointed out the differences.

If Jim doesn't jump in on this I can easily email him and clear it up.

There has been some confusion as to the relationship between the 3 ballads and indeed a few others which are related, mainly due to the enormous influence of the hybrids such as the very beautiful 'Lover's Ghost' sung by Cecilia Costello.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 07:02 PM

Hi,

I've posted it with your comment Steve here:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/heres-a-health--gilkie-ns-pre1950-creighton.aspx

I've also thanked you Mick on-line.

I always use the Roud Index to check for missing versions. I guess you can search to see if the two entries are still there- my data is 3 months old,

TY

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 07:17 PM

Here's are two parodies of The Grey Cock found in the US:

Lyr. Add: SAW YE MY HERO, GEORGE

Text: "Saw ye my hero, George, and Battle of Bunker Hill." Sold wholesale and retail, by L. Deming, No. 62 Hanover Street, Boston, and at Middlebury, Vt. [broadside, n.d.]
      "Lady Washington left Mount Vernon in June, 1778, in expectation of meeting her worthy companion, George; on the 28th of the same month, found her favorite engaged in the battle of Monmouth. She made the following observations."
Tune: Crucifixion, Southern Harmony, p. 25.

   SAW ye my hero,
   saw ye my hero,
Saw ye my hero GEORGE?
   I've travel'd o'er the plain,
   and inquir'd of ev'ry swain,
But no tidings could gain of my George.

   One quickly answer'd,
   I saw not your Hero,
I saw not your Hero, George;
   But I'm told he's in the van,
   where the battle's just began,
But I must hasten my men to the charge.

   Another replied,
   I saw your Hero,
I saw your hero, George;
   I saw him on the plain,
   with his sword drawn in his hand,
Protecting his men in the charge.

   O'er hills and high mountains,
   o'er rivers and fountains,
Where the drums and trumpets sound alarms,
   Heav'n give the angels charge
   to protect my Hero George,
And return him safe back to my arms.

   Hark! the hoarse thunder!
   shakes the earth's centre,
The groans and the clashing of arms;
   Kind heaven prove a friend
   and my Hero George defend,
Shield, protect, and secure him from harms.

   Balls, bombs and langrage,
   groans, death and carnage,
The hills and the caverns resound;
   The fields are cover'd o'er
   with streams of purple gore,
And the dead lie in heaps on the ground.

   But now the loud huzzas
   shout my Hero's praises,
Victorious George, they proclaim!
   Columbia, now prepare
   ye, my loves triumphal car,
And let fame shout my conqueror's name.

   Hail, mighty Hero!
   Columbia's Hero!
Who gave to America peace;
   Long may he live renown'd
   and with brilliant honors crown'd
Till complete in the mansions of bliss.


Lyr. Add: CRUCIFIXION
   Text: Anonymous, early 19c.
   Tune: Crucifixion, Southern Harmony, p. 25.

   Saw ye my Savior,
   saw ye my Savior,
Saw ye my Savior and God?
   Oh! he died on Calvary,
   To atone for you and me,
And to purchase our pardon with blood.

   He was extended,
   he was extended,
Painfully nailed to the cross;
   Here he bowed his head and died;
   Thus my Lord was crucified,
To atone for a world that was lost.

   Jesus hung bleeding,
   Jesus hung bleeding,
Three dreadful hours in pain,
   And the solid rocks-were rent,
   Through creation's vast extent,
When the Jews crucified the God-man.

   Darkness prevailed,
   darkness prevailed,
Darkness prevail'd o'er the land,
   And the sun refused to shine,
   When his majesty divine,
Was derided, insulted and slain.

   When it was finish'd,
   When it was finish'd
And the atonement was made,
   He was taken by the great,
   And embalm'd with spices sweet,
And was in a new sepulchre laid.

   Hail, mighty Savior!
   hail, mighty Savior!
Prince, and the Author of peace!
   Oh! he burst the bars of death,
   And, triumphant from the earth,
He ascended to mansions of bliss.

   There interceding,
   there interceding,
Pleading that sinners may live;
   Crying, "Father, I have died;
   Oh, behold my hands and side!
Oh, forgive them! I pray thee, forgive!"

   "I will forgive them,
   I will forgive them
When they repent and believe;
   Let them now return to thee,
   And be reconciled to me,
And salvation they all shall receive."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Apr 13 - 08:56 PM

Richie - Here's the tune for the songs from MFS.

You can find links to abc tutorials on the home site: abcnotation.com, specifically have a look at the learn abc page for links. (There's also a page for software for doing abc)

Mick

---

X:1
T:Here's A Health Unto All True Lovers
B:Helen Creighton: Maritime Folk Songs, 1979
S:Mr.William Gilkie and his mother, Mrs.Sandy Gilkie, Sambro, N.S., September, 1950.
L:1/8
M:3/2
K:G
D2 G2 (Bd)|d6 (B/c/)d (d<e) d2|B G3-G2
w:Oh here's a_ health un_to all_ true lov-ers_
(DG) G2 (Bd)|(d6 {ed}B2) d2 (e<d) B2|A6
w:And_ un-to_ mine_ where_'er she be.
((3Aed) d2 (dB)|(G3 F) (EF)(GA) B> A B2|(E D3) B,2
w:This__ ve-ry_ night_ love_ I_ mean to be with_ you,
D2 G<G(A<B)|c4 B3 A G2 F2|HG4 z2|]
w:It's man-y's a_ long mile she is from me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

Mick,
I'm afraid I can't read ABC but can just about get the gist of a simple tune from the dots.

What strikes me is some affiliation between the structure of 'Saw You My father' and 'Go From My Window'. Is there any milage in this?

Richie,

The Gilkie version is definitely Roud 22568. Steve has just sent me an update so if I can download it I will check all of the versions. The problem for Steve of course is what to do with the hybrids and I know we had a discussion on this recently. I will raise the matter again. I know he is extremely busy with all the Full English stuff. I will email Jim.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM

Hi,

Working on Henry Martin. Here's what I have:


http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us--canada-versions-250-henry-martin.aspx


I'm missing these US versions. Anyone have them?

Paul Holland, head of a printing company in Springfield, knew many old songs, some of which he consistently refused to have recorded by the folksong hunters. In carefully chosen company, back in 1934, Mr. Holland sang a highly prized "family ballad" (Child 250) which he called "Andrew Bardeen" and believed to be virtually unknown outside the Holland clan. He would not allow collectors to write down either the words or the tune of this piece. Mr. Holland said in 1939 that he was preparing a large collection of folksongs for publication, but we failed to find anybody who has ever seen his manuscript. [Randolph]

Emma Dusenberry- reportedly knew a fragment [Randolph]

"Andrew Bardean" J. Kenneth Larsen text and tune Idaho. [Hubbard]
--------------------
Southern Folklore Quarterly - Volume 2 - Page 206; University of Florida, Alton Chester Morris, Southeastern Folklore Society - 1938 - Pound- Nebraska text learned in Ireland.

[incomplete]

He had not sailed on a cold winter's night
Till a ship he did spy.
It was sailing far off, it was sailing far off,
And at length it came sailing close by.

" Who's there, who's there?" cried Ander Bardeen;
"Who's there that sails so nice?"
"We are the rich vessels from old London shore
And my friends, I say, let us pass by."

"O no, O no, " cried Ander Bardeen,
"The thing it cannot be,
Your vessels I'll take, your cargo too,
And your men I will drown in the sea."

And now King George that held the throne,
An awful tale did hear,
That all his rich vessels were taken
And all of his jolly men drowned.

"Go build a ship, go build it quick,
Go build it tight and strong,
And put on board young Captain Joe Stuart
To take the ship's command."


TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:42 PM

Hubbard on its way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:47 PM

Cookie back on.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:57 PM

Roud 303 Twa Knights lists:

Roud No. 303: The Twa Knights (7 Listings)

HOG'S HEART, THE
Source Thompson, Pioneer Songster (1958) pp.11-18   
Performer   
Place collected USA : New York   
Collector   

KNIGHT IN GREEN
Source Flanders & Olney, Ballads Migrant in New England pp.184-191   
Performer   
Place collected USA   
Collector   

KNIGHT IN GREEN, THE
Source Thompson, Pioneer Songster (1958) pp.18-22   
Performer   
Place collected USA : New York   
Collector   

These are US version but I thought they are versions of Buchan's Northern Lord and Cruel Jew, from Buchan's Gleanings of Scotch, English, and Irish scarce old Ballade Peterhead, 1825.

They are somewhat similar in plot, but I'm confused.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

Steve - I don't see any particular connection between Saw You My Father and Go From My Window. What had you in mind in particular?

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

I just wondered if there was any connection between them re the tune used. Is there a tune anywhere for 'Saw You My Father'? They seem to both be the same unusual metre.

Richie,
if there is a connection that will be very interesting for me. I'll check it out later today. I have both of these books, and I think I have a transcript of Gleanings somewhere.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 05:30 PM

Richie
These ballads are not necessarily directly related to each other. In the mid-18th century the hacks were taking tales and legends and putting them into verse all the time, hence Bramble Briar from Boccaccio. It's quite obvious some of these tales were coming from continental translations. At the same time antiquarians/poets were translating foreign ballads and passing them off as native material in some cases.

The Hog's Heart is The Chester Garland of which there is a copy in the Madden Collection. It can be found in many other collections in 55 verses. In fact one was printed locally to me in Hull, but I haven't got a record of it in the Bodleian (This doesn't mean it's not worth checking though)

Will check and compare the others you mention and report back.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM

Richie,
Brilliant and many thanks. I hadn't linked the 2 American versions either with each other despite having the same title, nor with Gleanings, nor with the garland ballad which is simply known as The Northern Lord and was widely printed. Most copies are 18thc but Pitts also printed it. Again it was printed by my local printer John Ferraby. There is a copy on the Bodl. Harding B4 (16) which has 49v but I have record of a copy with 56v.

I'd say Shakespeare is the more likely direct source for this one, whereas the other probably came directly from continental tales.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM

Just out of interest, why are you taking an interest in this as the ballad is not in ESPB? (But it does get a mention in ESB)

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:45 PM

Hi Steve,

The interest was that these three US versions are listed under Roud number 303- Twa Knights. Is 303 the number for Twa Knights? If so, why are teh three Us versions of Buchan's Nothern Lord there?

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:02 AM

Yes, of course.
I'll get this corrected ASAP. I would imagine Steve will want to keep 303 for Northern Lord, and Chester Garland will be given a new number.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:59 AM

Sorry Richie.
Of course there are 3 ballads here. I'm sure Steve will keep 303 for the Child ballad and the other 2 will be given new numbers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:59 PM

Steve

Chappell prints a tune for Saw You My Father (p781) from Thompson's Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances - you can see it at abcnotation from that source (courtesy of VMP via JCs tunefinder I think ): Saw You My Father. (you need cookies for this link to work I think). I don't think there's much similarity with GFMW. It's not the only tune though and I haven't checked out any others.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

That Chappell ref should have been page 731 - can't read anymore!

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Thanks, Mick
My sight reading's far from perfect but from what I could get from it it isn't anything like GFMW. However I think I detect some similarity to some of the Irish tunes for hybrid versions of Grey Cock.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Lighter
Date: 16 May 18 - 11:22 AM

CHARLEY

                        An Old Ballad

As I walked over London Bridge,
   One misty morning early,
'Twas there I spied a pretty fair maid,
   Lamenting for her Charley.

Said she: "Go bring my milk-white steed,
   All saddled and all ready,
That I might go to the king's high court
   And plead for the life of Charley.

And when she'd come to the king's high court,
   She stepped up so ready,
Saying, "Pray King George have mercy on me
   And grant me the life of Charley."

He turned himself right round about,
   And thus he spoke to Sally,
"You've come too late, my pretty fair maid,
   For he's condemned already."

Now Charley did not rob the king's high court,
   Nor did he murder;
But killed six of the king's fat deer,
   And he sold them in Bohemia.

So Charley is to be hung with a silk white cord,
   Which never has hung any;
Because he's the son of a noble lord,
   And loved by a royal lady.

Charley walked up and down the hall,
   As he took leave of many;
And he there took leave of his own true love,
   Which grieved him most of any.

Oh, if I could stand on yonder hill
   - Where I've had kisses many -
With a full drawn sword in my hand,
   I'd fight for the life of Charley.

From the Portland "Oregonian" (Apr. 1, 1917), "Contributed by George L. Foster, of Dryad, Washington."

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:52 PM

Is this version of Geordie in the right place, Jon?

Somewhat ironic title given the name of the singer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Lighter
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:37 PM

Richie was discussing Geordie earlier in the thread.

But I'm not wedded to this location.