Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion

Subject: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:09 PM

Resisted the temptation to use a joke in the title here, 'cause I don't think there'll be a lot of folks who already employ this technique, and it may become pretty technical.

Mentioned Marion, 'cause she's a great Mudcatter who often revives these techie threads...and gets new ideas flowing.

Holding the flatpick normally and then using the middle and ring fingers to play rolls and patterns can seem very hard at first, but it's not really.

Take the basic (in a G chord) finger picking pattern, Thumb, index, thumb, middle (use strings 6,3,4,2) and merely make the thumb stroke a flatpick one, and change "index to middle" and "middle to ring".

Almost all the Nashville studio players did this from the sixties on, probably to replicate a bit of "Atkins or Travis" style along with their normal flat picking.

More, if there's interest.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM

John Hardly kindly put a link in to "Guitar Player" in the "Can I play like Doc" thread but I can't make it work. John, do you mind running it again?

Rick

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:17 PM

Here's that link.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: RWilhelm
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:34 PM

I recently saw Richard Thompson perform solo and this was the technique he used. It worked especially well with open tunings.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM

I've been doing this for years. It's not a substitute for fingerpicking -- the flatpick isn't quite as quick or flexible as a thumb when you're also trying to keep your middle and ring fingers in place to do their part. But it's a fun way to add a little spice to your flatpicking. I have nails on my right hand; don't know how well this would work for people who play with their bare fingers, but it works well with nails.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM

This particular technique sounds great on a Gretsch Country Gentleman, and it was the technique that most of the country players in bar bands, where grew up, at least, used. They called it "Chet Atkins" style--played only closed position chords, tending towards a lot of fills and leads-- My recollection is that they used it in the way that Whistlestop does, to extend flatpicking--Most of them played a repertoire that included both country tunes and standards--Thought of themselves as more musically connected to swing/jump music than old time country(no acoustic instruments in the bands, except maybe a fiddle, steel players still used those old multineck consoles)-- Of course, they were completely distainful of folkies and their fingerpicks and open chords--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM

Thanks for the heavy lifting Justa!

I started using the pick and two(or three) finger technique again when I encountered the following problem that I described elsewhere. (A problem, I might add, which seems to be mine alone----I've either described it poorly or else nobody else has the problem)

Anyway, to answer the question of "Why learn to play this way?"...among other reasons;

"I'm coming to the well again to tap this resource for a playing tip. You guys who are comfortable playing up the neck----I'm wondering if you've found ways, excercises, mental or physical to allow you to play those floating scales and leads. here's an exapmle of a scale that is almost impossible for my mind to coax my fingers into allowing me to play up to speed;

Gmaj
XXX0XX
XX7XXX
XXXX0X
XXX5XX
XXX7XX
XXXXX0
XXXX7X
XXXX8X

Here's the thing. My many years of playing (especially first five frets) have my mind deeply entrenched in the concept that pitch gets higher when you 1. move from nut to bridge, and 2. when you move from fat strings to skinny.

When you play this (as well as other "floating" leads), suddenly your mind is telling you that when you want a higher pitch you need to follow the above two rules, BUT instead,you are actually going to be moving from fat to skinny string to get a LOWER pitch.

Anything excercise or otherwise that you've done to get your mind to grasp this (seeming) anomally?"

If I use the three finger or pick and two finger pattern picking…voila'! The pattern overcomes the mental block/anomaly.

My brother even wears finger picks on his middle and ring finger to play this way (I just use nail)

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:00 PM

Your problem is that you have developed a habit about thinking of the notes on a guitar as only occuring in a certain sort of linear pattern--you have to get passed that idea and develop a feel for the fact that the same notes occur outside the pattern that you have learned-

Try playing a scale moving up the neck on a single string(use the open G, for instance), and then plotting out about all the other possible places you could go to get each of your scale notes--after a while you'll get used thinking "trans-linearly"--

The other thing that helps is to play whatever scale that you are working on in *strict tempo* at however slow a speed you need to--Don't increase the speed until you can play it right at the slower speed!

The thing to remember is that the guitar offers a lot of possibilities--probably a lot more than it needs to, and that in order to move ahead, a lot of times you have to re-organize what you know--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:13 PM

Thanks M.Ted,
Very practical!

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:24 PM

You know what I HAVEN'T seen? Anyone pick with the flatpick and THREE fingers. I'm sure lots do. Anyone here? I wouldn't be surprised if one of those thousands of completely unknown "bar geniuses" (in Toronto I used to watch a guy named Roy Penney who was simply amazing) ripped into "Maleguena" that way. Or perhaps Classical Gas or stuff like that.

Last time I saw Roy Penney he was playing in a place so far beneath his talent it was really sad. He didn't APPEAR to mind.

Rick

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 05:35 PM

I use a thumb pick so as not to monopolize two fingers (thumb and index) to grasp it, and three fingers to "claw" the other strings. Works great in certain blues and jazz tunes.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:13 PM

Quote by Justa Picker "I use a thumb pick so as not to monopolize two fingers (thumb and index) to grasp it, and three fingers to "claw" the other strings. Works great in certain blues and jazz tunes."

I think many of us do that JP. Relative to this discussion though, do you then "flatpick" with the thumpick. Meaning, do you pick down and up with the thumb pick?

I use the flat and three fingers on my "Wayfarin' Stranger" but really only because most of it I do on the low five strings (the baby then takes care of the high E string)---and the reason I use the flatpick in it is that I do a flatpick reprise of the tune at the end.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM

The OTHER style I try to teach my more ambitious students is "flatpicking" with the thumb and index. The masters of this style were Reverend Gary Davis, (check out "Oh Lord, Search my Heart") and on banjo, Eddie Adcock. This is something I use all the time, and for me is more fluid than "fingerpicking" with a flatpick and two fingers.

It's great to learn all these styles. They add variety and colour to your pickin'.

Rick

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:34 PM

Relative to this discussion though, do you then "flatpick" with the thumpick. Meaning, do you pick down and up with the thumb pick?

No. It would be too awkward to do this with a thumbpick as the edges aren't bevelled enough. For those instances to do what you originally mentioned, I'd use a flat pick, and the three free fingers to claw the string chords....or, I'd use the thumb pick and a fingerpick on the index to do a 2-fingered style of flat picking, with the 3 remaining fingers to pluck chords. I'm pretty flexible. :-)

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:43 PM

Justa,
That's what I thought...just clarifying.

Rick Fielding,
Two other masters of the thumb finger flatpicking---Wayne Henderson and Ed Hall. I dabble in doing it myself and I just marvel when I hear those two do it because they get the consecutive finger out of the way SO rapidly that there's no muting-----amazing!

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:52 PM

Isn't this a standard technique as used by James Burton, Jerry Donahue and all the other Telecaster country-rock hotshots ?

Murray

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:40 PM

Rick--

Thanks for this thread. Very informative.

CC

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM

There are way too many techniques for picking than anyone can even deal with--and we haven't even gotten into talking about whether the melody is carried in by the thumb or the index, thumb rolls versus single, double, triple finger rolls, single note picking with the index alone--no wonder it has taken me thirty five years just to get this box in tune! Another thirty five and I might actually be able to play the thing--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 12:46 AM

Arghhhh, Ted, Rolls...we forgot the rolls!

Well here's a basic one.(finger first, name of string second, chord of G)

T6, I3, T4, M2. All eighth notes.

Wanna make it swing?

T6, T4, (T6, I3, T4, M2)......first two, quarter notes, the last four, eighth notes. Sounds like "Bum, Bum, bada, bada"

Mr. Obsessive

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Marion
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 01:31 AM

Thanks, this is very interesting. Here is the Doc Watson thread that the discussion of picking styles springs from.

I'm still trying to figure out when and why the flatpick+fingers approach is used - you're right, the how isn't that tough.

I tried it out by playing a fiddle tune on the higher strings with my fingers while hitting alternating bass notes with the flatpick, and while it wasn't that hard to produce the right notes, it didn't seem very sensible; the bass notes ended up dominating the melody notes. I suppose with practice I could balance the volume better, but it's not clear that there would be much point to doing so. I mean, why volunteer to lose the use of a finger and make the volume balance a challenge when the same thing could be played more naturally with a thumbpick?

Sure, combining the flatpicking and fingerpicking would make you look cool - but what advantages does it offer to make up for its disadvantages?

(Don't get me wrong - looking cool is more than enough reason for me to want to learn this - but I'd still like to know what the loftier reasons are.)

More questions resulting from this thread:

- I would have called the things Rick spelled out above picking patterns - is there a difference between a "roll" and a "pattern"? What are these "single, double, or triple finger rolls" that M.Ted speaks of - patterns that involve 1, 2, or 3 fingers respectively?

- I take it that "flatpicking with the thumb and index" doesn't have the obvious meaning of holding a flatpick with thumb and index. So what does it mean?

Marion

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:04 AM

Quote from Marion "Sure, combining the flatpicking and fingerpicking would make you look cool - but what advantages does it offer to make up for its disadvantages?"

Well, I can answer from my point of view. I do it because;
1. I can alternate between strumming and fingerpicking..(It's darn near impossible to up-strum with a thumb pick)
2. A linear fiddle tune can be embellished (makes for interesting accompniment)
3. As opposed to a thumbpick, the flatpick can more easily be used in the typical up/down manner of fiddle tunes (and even if you use a thumb pick this way you still sort of have to reinforce it with your index finger---therby leaving yourself one finger short for fingerpicking anyway)
4.The variety of flatpicks and their style makes for a variety of sounds (ways to attack the strings). The sound of a flatpick is NOT the sound of a thumbpick.


The drawbacks are
1. The imbalance between string volume that you mentioned but this is less material on an electric, and can be more or less ovcercome on an acoustic by wearing fingerpicks on the middle and ring fingers. I also find that holding the flatpick necessarily changes the angle of attack for my fingers and I automatically get more nail on the string anyway.
2. The pinky is the weakest finger and it's hard to train if you rely on three finger patterns.
3. It's a bit tricky to learn the hand flexibility (getting the mid and ring fingers to act independantly). The article to which I referred gives excercises to increase this.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 07:08 PM

Rick and I seem to be talking about two different things--I was thinking about the sort of rolls that we ukulele players use, but really come from classical and flamenco guitar--jazz players use them too--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:19 PM

Oh yeah....and, Marion....

...I look cool without the flatpick! * ;>) *

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Mark Clark
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:07 AM

When I first saw Norman Blake play (late sixties or early seventies at Bean Blossom) he was using the thumb and index "flatpicking" that Rick is talking about. He came on stage as part of someone else's set and just blew everyone away.

The "Nashville Cats" that use the flatpick plus fingers technique aren't usually playing straight melodic lines, they're usually playing complex backup and puncuation licks that require the particular attack one can achieve that way. You don't see acoustic players using the technique as often as the electric players.

Also, I seem to remember watching Chet Atkins use his thumb pick as a flat pick for both down and up strokes. He didn't play a whole piece that way, just a few notes or bars.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 09:36 AM

There's a really cool bluesy song of Chet's called Young Thing where in this instance he uses the thumb and index (down stroke on the thumb and up stroke on the index) on the 6th and 5th strings to simulate a boogie-woogie piano-type of bass walking bass line, while the 3 remaining fingers of the right hand pluck chords with melody. I'm a fairly seasoned picker, and have been working on this tune for about 9 months and am only now getting this to sound like music. On the video I'm learning it from, he makes a joke about this tune, saying he'll never understand why he writes songs he can't play. (Yeah right.)

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:42 AM

You're right Ted...there's rolls AND rolls, and of course "rolls"! Speaking of those, Merle Travis has the weirdest way of playing of playing arpegiated rolls. Maybe Justa can explain it. He seems to repeat his thumb index rather than using (say) his last three fingers.

Chet's one of the few players that DID actually use his thumbpick for up and down strokes. Don't know why, but that just doesn't seem like a common technique.

Rick

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:08 PM

(Clones, kindly delete my previous 2 messages - please and thanks.)no prob.


Well Rick, regarding Merle, let's use his Canonball Rag as an example. Assuming people are already familiar with the tune and here for the sake of argument we'll say the tune is in the key of G, and beginning with the E7 chord (1st position C7 moved up to the fifth fret) there is a little section towards the end of end of the song (before the part where the D7 chord is hit following the famous bass note runs) he does the roll you describe back and forth over the D and G chords. The roll is thumb downstoke over the bass strings (6th & 5th), followed by another thumb downstroke (5th & 4th) and then an upstroke ("pinch") over the higher strings with the index finger. And just repeat this pattern and you get the idea. Difficult to master.

Think of Lester Flatt's rhythm playing with an extra downstroke added. :-)

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Marion
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

I found a practical use for this hybrid picking business:

With the guitar tuned in DADGAD, and with a tune in D major, you can flatpick the melody on the lower strings while plucking alternating bass notes (so to speak) on the high strings. It's handy - you have an open D and A for the D chords, an open G and D for the G chords, and an open A and easily reached E for the A chords. And volume balance is less of an issue since the high notes are just harmony notes.

So what's this "fingerpicking with thumb and index" business about?

Marion

Oh yeah....and, John....

... you once told me that a sunburst design makes one more attractive to the opposite sex... so I can hardly put much stock into what you think looks cool, can I now?

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Les B
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 12:35 AM

Marion - I see you've asked the question twice about "...picking with thumb and index finger" - I may be wrong, but what I think they're talking about is picking a series of single melody notes, typical of flatpicking, but using the thumb and first finger and alternating them.

With this style you can pick nearly as fast as a flatpicker, but it often has a more powerful, in-control feeling for your hand. I've heard some banjo players who use this style say they feel like they can "rip the strings off the neck".

It's also seems easier to find the melody with the thumb and finger - why, I don't know. There is a slight difference in sound, however, between true flatpicking and the alternating thumb/finger.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:54 AM

No, Les, that isn't what we're talking about(though that is a technique that is very useful)--We-re talking about a particular style of guitar playing that uses a strident bass(often but not always alternating) played with the thumb, and chords and single note melodies and fills played with the index finger--The Grandmaster of this style was Merle Travis--and it is much discussed(at least by certain sinister types) on the Mudcat Forum--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM

Oh yeah, Travis picking (the real thing, not the patterns). OK, I misread that entirely, sorry. That's a sound very unlike flatpicking.

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Marion
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:20 PM

Thanks Les and M.Ted.

Now M.Ted, you say that this style is much discussed on Mudcat; I have found a few passing references to Travis picking, but no real discussion under that title of what it is. However, on the "Can I Play Like Watson" thread there is quite a bit of discussion on fingerpicking with 1 vs. 2 vs. 3 fingers - is that the discussion you meant? If so, what's the rationale for calling it a kind of flatpicking?

Marion

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:27 PM

Les was confused--he thought that we were discussing a thumb/index finger picking technique that can be used to play single notes quickly, and I just mentioned that we were talking about Travis picking--we did talk about it in the Doc Watson thread, and in other threads as well-As to what it is, well, for it to make sense, you have to hear it--but basically, there is a strident, alternating bass(Eighth notes, I think, which can be fifths or Octaves--Third is possible, as are single notes) with the melody played by the index finger on the treble strings, and with the odd chord brushed in, also with the index(This last bit can be either up or downstrokes)--and it is not one of the easiest things to do on the guitar(Doc Watson says it took him a year and a half to get the thumb movement downAnyway, if it seemed like I said it was flatpicking, I didn't mean that--sorry for the confusion--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 03:27 AM

Hey Ted, Who's sinister?!

By the way, Merle's son Thom Bresh has a good video out on his Dad's style.

Don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but flatpicking with the addition of the two fingers is hard! Worthwhile learning but hard.

Rick

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 11:56 AM

Sinister, means "on the the left", and most of us do all of that complicated fretboard work with the left hand--so I guess that makes us all "sinister"--As far as the FP+2 being hard, well, yes--It is funny, too, because, as I mentioned above, there were a lot of guys who played this way where I grew up--they tended to be older guys, from the South, often with Brilliantined hair, who played in bar bands--At the same time, there was a parallel folkie world full of "sensitive" guys with their black turtlenecks, Broadside songbooks , struggling with double-thumbing with no idea that these guys were way ahead of them--

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Marion
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 03:41 AM

I have a recording of Doc Watson playing "Doc's Guitar"; is that Travis picking?

M.Ted, you didn't say that Travis picking was like flatpicking, but Rick and John did, earlier in this thread. Actually it was Rev. Gary Davis and not Merle Travis that Rick pointed out in reference to "flatpicking with thumb and index", so maybe it wasn't even Travis picking they were talking about.

Frigging complicated guitars.

Marion

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:16 PM

Marion,

Here's my understanding of the basic finger and flatpicking categories (of which there are endless sub-sets)

1. Travis Picking—this is the formal term for a specific type of fingerstyle, pattern picking that involves not just the alternating thumb bass/rhythm but also the use of the fleshy, thumbside part of the palm to dampen those bass strings as they are sounded. The melody is generally played then with one,two or three fingers. The melody notes are undampened and sustain while the bass notes "thump" thereby giving an even broader "one-man-band" sound to the music. think "Cannonball Rag"

2. Travis style Folk – this in a less formalized version. The thumb is still generally used to play an alternating bass and the fingers still are often used to play the melody, but all the strings are left to sustain (no dampening). Also there are almost endless variety to the patterns one may use. This also may be used without specifically playing a melody line, rather as an interesting accompaniment to vocals. This style is all jangle and no funk. To call this stye "Travis Picking" to a true Travis Picker is akin to showing up at a bluegrass jam with a non-Martin guitar. Think "The Boxer"

Many of the well-disciplined guitarists on this forum play the former, more formal Travis Picking. I play the less disciplined folk style. As you probably have noticed, I (of course) am a happier man.

3. The Flatpick and fingers method—With this method you can, as I said above, alternate between the folk-style travis picking and/or strumming. A very versatile option.

4. Cross-picking—I find this to be the most difficult to master but many do it. This is playing the actual folk travis pattern with a flatpick alone. Generally, the pick on its downstroke will act as the thumb and keep the alternating bass going while on the upstroke play the melody notes (acting as the fingers would). This is obviously lightning fast pick movement and the accuracy is a real challenge as you are having to cross strings without sounding them. Also, to literally do this you can't simultaneously sound to non-adjacent strings without involving at least one finger (as above).

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Justa Picker
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:32 PM

Yes Marion.
"Doc's Guitar" as perform by Doc Watson is most definitely true Travis Picking. (Thumb and index, only.)

Excellent points JH.
(Thanks for saving me the typing. :-)

Subject: RE: Flat picking + two fingers. for Marion
From: Marion
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 08:38 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

Marion