Child Ballad site

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 09:19 PM

recently completed:

Bronson 45.1 King John and the Abbot of Canterbury
Bronson 45.4 The Bishop of Canterbury; or King John
Bronson 45.7 King John
Bronson 45.15 The old Abbot and King Olfrey

Bronson 46.7 Captain Wedderburn's Courtship
Bronson 46.13 Six Questions
Bronson 46.14 Captain Wedderburn
Bronson 46.24 Mr. Woodburn's Courtship

Bronson 46 ap 1 My Love gave me a cherry

385 pages to go!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 08:11 PM

added:

Bronson 46 ap 2a I'll give My Love an Apple
Bronson 46 ap 3 I will give my love an apple
Bronson 46 ap 7 The Riddle Song
Bronson 46 ap 14 A Paradox
Bronson 46 ap 16 Go No More a-Rushing

Bronson 47.1 The Knicht o'Archerdale

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:37 PM

Bronson 49.1 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.4 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.11 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.13.1 The Twa Brothers

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM

Continuing the drift: When is it reasonable to "reconstruct" a ballad? Consider "Sir Patrick Spens." If we go strictly by the version we got in the "world literature" books in school, the song would be about 5 verses long and, largely, senseless. Working with both the early and later Child sets, it is possible to create a meaningful version of about 30 verses that tells the story more clearly. Is this ballad any more or less meaningful than the fragmentary versions laid out in Child?

Each version is someone's interpretation of what was passed along from the memory of a performer. As indicated above, none of the collectors are completely authoritative, no matter how hard they tried.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Abby Sale
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

mario: Where are the tunes posted?

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:23 PM

They aren't posted anywhere yet - there is a probability they will be posted at a "quick link" site off the main mudcat site - however at the moment the ones I have done are available through me via e-mail (at least when I am at home, which I am not this week or next)

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,TracyFSU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:35 PM

For my Lit.380 course, I need to choose a CHild Ballad, play it for the class, then explain what the ballad means. I'm having a hard time choosing 1, being he has so many. Also, my knowledge on the subject in limited. Any suggestions? It would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM

Tracy, I started a new thread for you so that maybe someone will notice, please click here.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

Added to my transcriptions:

Bronson 49.19 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.22 The Dying Soldier
Bronson 49.25 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.29 John and William
Bronson 49.37 The Two Brothers

only 385 more pages to go!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:36 AM

added last night:

Bronson 51.2 Lizzie Wan
Bronson 51.4 Fair Lucy

Bronson 52.1 Lady Jean
Bronson 52.1.1 Queen Jane
Bronson 52.3 Fair Rosie Ann

Bronson 53.1 Lord Bakeman
Bronson 53.6 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.9 Lord Baykim (no text)
Bronson 53.12 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.23 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.30.2 Lord Bateman

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:22 PM

and also:

Bronson 53.34 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.27 The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.45 Lord Beichan and Susie Pye
Bronson 53.74 Young Beichan
Bronson 53.92 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.94 Young Becon
Bronson 53.100 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.101 Lord Akeman
Bronson 53.105 A Gentleman of the Courts of England
Bronson 53.112 Young Bekie

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:13 PM

adding merrily along:

Bronson 54.1 Joseph was an old man
Bronson 54.3 The Cherry Tree Carol
Bronson 54.16 The Cherry Tree Carol

Bronson 55.1 The Carnal and the Crane
Bronson 55.2 King Herod and the Cock

Bronson 56.1 Dives and Lazarus
Bronson 56.3 Dives and Lazarus
Bronson 56.5 Diverus and Lazarus
Bronson 56.13 Lazarus

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

knocked off a few more:

Bronson 58.2 Sir Patrick Spens
Bronson 58.3 Sir Patrick Spens
Bronson 58.5 Sir Patrick Spens

Bronson 61.1 Sir Colin

Bronson 62.1 Fair Annie
Bronson 62.3 Fair Annie

Bronson 63.1 Fair Margaret
Bronson 63.2 Lord William and Lady Margaret

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: boldreynard
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM

When I was at the Old Songs Festival in June, I picked up a brochure for the complete Child Ballads with CD-Rom that is due out in the near future. I have sent requests several times for a specific publication date, but have yet to receive a reply.

The website for the company is http://www.heritagemuse.com/

Their description of the project is as follows:

"Marking the 120th anniversary of the 1882 publication, this computerized edition of the complete set of original books has been developed for use by scholars, performers, and other ballad lovers. The "digital edition" offers fully searchable text of all 305 ballads and their notes (2800+ pages) with enhanced study aids including glossary and index links, a new geographical gazetteer with ballad maps, computer playable MIDI files of all music notations, and new essays on the ballads as literature and on folk-music collectors and collecting.

CD 1:         
Fully searchable and printable text with new essays, new maps and a gazetteer, MIDI files, and annotation, index and glossary hyperlinks.
CD 2:        
Audio CD (pop it in your stereo) containing new music tracks and interviews with outstanding contemporary interpreters, preservers, and collectors of the living song traditions. Full ballad performances from Jean Ritchie, Martin Carthy, Joan Baez, Louis Killen, Roberts & Barrand, Heather Wood, Anita Best, Archie Fisher, Heather Heywood, the Patons, and others."

I

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 01:17 PM

Bronson 65.1 Fair Janet

Bronson 299.17 Trooper and Maid
Bronson 299.13 A Bold Dragoon
Bronson 299.12 Trooper and the Maid
Bronson 299.3 Trooper and Maid

Bronson 295.47 The Brown Girl
Bronson 295.41 The Brown Girl
Bronson 295.26 Fair Sally
Bronson 295.20 Pretty Sally
Bronson 295.1 Fair Sally

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

Bronson 293.1 Jock o' Hazelgreen
Bronson 293.12 John of Hazelgreen
Bronson 293.16 Jock o' Hazeldean

340 pages to go!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:49 PM

took yesterday off as I was too busy checking on whether or not it was a baby yet...

above 'Fair Janet' should be Bronson 64.1

Bronson 65.1 Lady Maisery
Bronson 65.8 Lady Miasry
Bronson 65.12 Lady Maisry

Bronson 68.2 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.4 Earl Richard (no text)
Bronson 68.6 Earl Richard
Bronson 68.13 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.27 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.34 The ladie stude in her bour-door
Bronson 68.37 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.41 YOung Hunting

334 pages to go

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM

Todays:

Bronson 69.1 Clerk Saunders
Bronson 69.2 Clerk Saunders

Bronson 73.1 Lord Thomas and Fair Annet
Bronson 73.8 Lord Thmas' Wedding
Bronson 73.21 The Brown Girl
Bronson 73.71 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.91 Lord Thomas anf Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.95 Lord Thomas and Fair Elinor
Bronson 73.97 Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor
Bronson 73.103 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.115 Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor
Bronson 73.136 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.143 Sweet William and Fair Annie

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:58 PM

skipping around a bit:

Bronson 289.40 The Mermaid
Bronson 289.30 The Mermaid
Bronson 289.25 Our Gallant Ship
Bronson 289.2 The Mermaid

Bronson 288.1 Young Essex (no text)
Bronson 288.2 Young Essex

Bronson 287.10 Captain Ward and the Rainbow
Bronson 287.9 Captain Ward and the Rainbow
Bronson 287.8 The Jolly Mariner
Bronson 287.3 Captain Ward

Bronson 285.10 The Wild Barbaree
Bronson 285.6 High Barbaree

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM

yup - it's that time of day again:

Bronson 74.1 William and Margaret - no text
Bronon 74.11 Lady Margaret
Bronson 74.47 Fair Margaret and Sweet William
Bronson 74.64 Fair Margaret and Sweet William
Bronson 74.68 Fair Margaret and Sweet William

Bronson 283.1 The Farmer and the Robber
Bronson 283.12 The Highwayman Outwitted
Bronson 283.18 the Oxford MErchant or The Hampshire Bite
Bronson 283.25 The Boy and the Cow
Bronson 283.38 The Lincolnshire Farmer
Bronson 283.40 The Yorkshire Bite (no text)

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:35 PM

Bronson 282.6 Jock the Leg and the Merry Merchan'
Bronson 282.5 Jock the Leg
Bronson 282.2 = DT jockleg =Jock the Leg

Bronson 75.8 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.23 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.32.1 Lord Lovat
Bronson 75.42 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.46 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.53 Lady Annisbel
Bronson 75.57 Lord Lovell

Bronson 76.1 Oh Open the Door, Lord Gregory
Bronson 76.4.1 Lord Gregory
Bronson 76.5 The Lass of Lochroyan
Bronson 76.16 Georgie Jeems

Bronson 77.1 There cam' a Ghost
Bronson 77.3 Sweet William's Ghost
Bronson 77.9 Sweet William's Ghost
Bronson 77.12 Sweet William's Ghost (text only - I can't make head no tails of the music.)

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:28 PM

Just as a little break after many MMario posts in a row. I'm sure you know it, MMario, but it feels good nevertheless, so I say it:

I very much doubt that I am the only one to follow your work with admiration and anticipation. You're doing a great job and many people are looking forward to each single addition.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:46 PM

*grin/blush/grin*

well - I gotta admit - I'm hoping someone gives me/loans me one of those out of print un-expurgegated bawdy songbooks for my next project. or comic songs -

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM

Bronson 78.10 Cold blows the Wind
Bronson 78.27 How Cold the Winds do Blow
Bronson 78.35 Cold Blows the Wind
Bronson 78.36 The Unquiet Grave
Bronson 78.41 Cold Blows the Wind = Child 78F

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Mockingbird MacGillickutty
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:30 AM

I would suggest # 2 LAIRD O ELFIN . It is an ambitious pre nuptual negotiation session between a pastoral maid of meager means and her supernatural suitor. Let us know what else tou learn from the song.
Bronson dishes up some melodies and Ewan MaColl did a fine recording (Folkways). Every Rose groes merry in time. Ye maun plogh't wi' yer ane mind. Thank you , Mockingbird

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 03:12 PM

Bronson 79.1 The Wife of Usher's Well = Child A = DT USHRWEL2
Bronson 79.3 There Was a Lady in Merry Scotland = DT USHERWEL
Bronson 79.5 The Wife of Usher's Well
Bronson 79.20 The Wife of Usher's Well
Bronson 79.30 Lady Gay
Bronson 79.43 The Wife of Usher's Well
Bronson 79.48 The Three Little Babes
Bronson 79.54 Lady Gray (no text)

Bronson 81.6 Lord Orland's Wife
Bronson 81.15 Lyttle Musgrave
Bronson 81.27 Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard
Bronson 81.55 Lord Arnold (no text)


282 pages to go.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

Bronson 81.66 Lord Banner

Bronson 83.1 Gill Morice
Bronson 83.4 Babe Norice
Bronson 83.5 Gill Morice
Bronson 83.7 Gill Morice

Bronson 84.2 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.12 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.14 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.28 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.30 Barb'ra Allyn
Bronson 84.33 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.38 Barbara Ellen
Bronson 84.40 Bonny Barbara Allan - Child A

only 12 more examples of Barbara Allan to go! (plus about 270 pages of other songs)

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:45 PM

Added:

Bronson 84.44 Barbara Allan
Bronson 84.52 barbary Allen
Bronson 84.60 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.63 Barabara Allen
Bronson 84.68 Barbara Ellen
Bronson 84.79 Babie Allan
Bronson 84.83 Barbra Ellen
Bronson 84.84 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.137 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.142 Barbry Ellen
Bronson 84.156 Barbru Allan
Bronson 84.167 Barbara Allan (no text)

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:44 AM

Bronson 85.2 George Collins
Bronson 85.18 Georgie Collins
Bronson 85.?? George Collins
Bronson 85.26 Giles Collins
Bronson 85.29 George Collins
Bronson 85.34 George Collins

Bronson 86.1 Young Benjie = Child 86A

Bronson 88.2 Willie and the YOung Cornel - approximates Child 88C
Bronson 88.4 = Johnson and the Colonel = DT JOHNSTON

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:25 PM

Bronson 88.6 Young Johnstone

Bronson 92.1 Abroad as I was Walking
Bronson 92.6 The Lowlands of Holland
Bronson 92.7 The Lowlands of Holland
Bronson 92.10 Lowlands of Holland
Bronson 92.16 The Lowlands of Germany

Bronson 93.2 False Lamkin
Bronson 93.5a Bolakins

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 01:58 PM

Added to my files:
Bronson 93.8 False Lambkin
Bronson 93.12 Lamkin
Bronson 93.27 Lambkin (no text)
Bronson 93.29 Long Lankin or YOung Lambkin

Bronson 95.1 Oh, Stop Your Hand, Lord Judge (no text)
Bronson 95.2 The Maid Freed from the Gallows
Bronson 95.4 The Prickly Bush
Bronson 95.17 The Prickly Bush ~ Child K

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 03:55 PM

Bronson 156 - Earl Marshall = DT QECONFES = Child F

X:1
T:Earl Marshall
C:traditional
N:**Bronson notes:Motherwell notes that 'in singing, the two last lines of each stanza are repeated"; but oddly in his appendix the repitition is not indicated
N:tentatively dated to Elizabethean times
I:abc2nwc
M:2/2
L:1/8
K:G
z6D2|G2D2G2D D|(G A) (B c) d2"^|"B2|
w:QUEENE EL-EA-NOR was a sick_ wo_-man,And
c2d2(e d) (c B)|A4z2"^|"|:D2|G2(G F) E2F G|A2F2D2"^|"D2|
w:sick just like_ to_ die,And she has_ sent for two fryars of France,To
G2G G A2D2|G4z2:|z2
w:come to her speed-i-lie

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:43 PM

Following on from the earlier postings in this thread, I've converted Cathy Preston's original text file into an SQL database. I started this purely for my own purposes, but thought others might find it useful too, so have set it up on the web. This is on a free webspace site, so response times may be poor at certain times of the day. It uses CSS, so older browsers probably won't display it properly.

You can browse ballads by title and by Child's no, and also search within titles or within the text. The normal caveats for searching text of this sort apply: e.g. 'Robin Hood' also appears as 'Robbin Hood' (shades of The Battle of Epping Forest) and I lost track of the number of different spellings of 'Nottingham'. The text is also littered with brackets, which complicates searching. (I suppose I could try changing the search routine to ignore brackets.)

An earlier posting asked about the /C and other odd characters. This came from incomplete conversion of Cathy's file when creating the HTML file that prompted the original posting to this thread. Another major problem with that HTML file was that some brackets within the text are angled, which confuses browsers and meant that large chunks of text simply weren't displayed at all. I have got rid of these problems (I hope), but am pretty sure others remain. In particular, there are quite a few duplicate lines which look spurious to me. Unfortunately, I don't have a complete Child to check, so if someone with a copy and lots of time . . .

65k has 2 verses 7 and 8, so if someone can let me know how this should read, I'll change it. And 63D starts at verse 24 - are 23 verses missing??

Believe it or not, Cathy actually sat down and typed all this lot in as part of her PhD studies. As she was solely interested in the text, there are no titles or sources in the main file. However, part of the file came from a different source (this complicated conversion), which included Child's source comments, so these appear in nos 56-63. Refrains are marked up in the earlier songs, but it looks like enthusiasm for this waned and so this markup doesn't appear in later ones. If someone wants to give me this info, I can add it to the DB. The titles I have got from elsewhere, but there are none of the variant titles. Again, if someone has time to tap these in to a text file (CSV or whatever) and send them to me, I can add them to the DB.

It's the nature of tapping in such a large volume of text that there are pretty well bound to be errors, but despite this, I would guess the text is good enough for most people.

Which brings me on to MMario's efforts. Assuming that the nos there correspond to Child's, then it should be quite easy to incorporate these into the site, especially if there's a link between the variants in Bronson and those in Child. Perhaps ABC and midi files would be most useful, and I can easily run abc2ps to produce a graphical version of the 'sheet music' which can be displayed alongside. Perhaps you can send me some samples MMario? [e-mail]

The statistically minded may be interested to know that the DB has 305 titles, 1216 variants and 23219 verses.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM

samples sent.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM

If this is duplicated I apologise ... I thought I'd posted it already.

The web site just above doesn't work properly for me using Internet Explorer, but it does using Opera.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:11 PM

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

sorry, pressed return too quickly

hmm, I'll have to look into IE. I tested with Mozilla, Opera and Konqueror, but my Windows m/c is out of action at the moment as the disk died.

I realised after posting that the previous posting contained an abc, so I've converted it and stuck it on the web. This is the default size, resolution, etc. Words aren't too legible, but notes are ok.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM

should now display ok in IE too

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: minnesinger5
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 10:40 PM

Dear folkies and folkers, Please help out a refugee minnesinger5.
For the life of me I cannot access the J.F.Child ballad site as so teasingly alluded to throughout this thread. O, Well.
Also: I really need to know the tune sources for the following songs:
Scarborough Fair (Bronson's collections, for example, of the Elfin Knight (Child #2) give divergent but unrelated melodies,) yet I know that our wiley professional, Mr. Paul Simon got the thing somewhere. Ditto the entire "Lay Down Your Weary Tune, Lay Down" by Mr. Bob Dylan. He once said that he heard it on a UK radio broadcast-apparently a hymn or anthem to which he applied some woody-inspired naturalisticks. Thirdly, why are tunes like :Caerrick Fergus often by-lined (given a composers' credit).   I think I found the tune to "Pity the Poor Immigrant" as an unpronounceable Welsh lament-very similar.
I suppose what I need to know most is: Can I use Mr. Simon's stolen melody(return it to 4/4 time) or mr Dylan's wonderful cultural thefts even though a publisher has seen fit (wrongly?) to claim the thing for our Dour Bard of the North/Central? Hey anybody, let me know: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:07 PM

1.  The story is all too well-known. Use the onsite search engine.

2.  Discussed here in the past; I forget the details, but again, they can be quite easily found.

3.  Because people who recorded such songs in the 1950s and '60s wanted to make sure that any consequent payments went to them, not to the record company. Subsequently, agencies such as Harry Fox have rather tended to assume that any song sharing a title with one registered with them must ipso facto belong to them.

4.  Yes; but make sure that you credit the prior source in each case; and in each case, incorporate none of the changes made by the copyright claimant. Credit where it's due, essentially, and never begrudge a deserved royalty payment (in the case of Scarborough Fair, the guitar part belongs unequivocally to Martin Carthy, from whom Paul Simon copied it). The majority of songs sung (and recorded) as "traditional" are, technically, nothing of the kind; as most performers learn their material from books (where texts and tunes are more often than not collated from numerous sources) and from records made by other, slightly earlier, Revival performers; these are likely to have been deliberately changed from the genuine traditional forms, either to make them (a) "better" (b) longer, or (c) more easily copyrightable...

Hrumph.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: minnesinger5
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:04 AM

Hold on, there folks. You mean to say that the Bronson police ( or the Princeton police) are going to raid the next wake wherein I am asked to sing "Famous Flou'r O' Servin' Men" or "Ow'r Young Bekie" for the lack or public domain? "Yez can find me, yez coppas, but yea'll have to come in an' git me, yez hear?" Group wake, perhaps.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: winterchild
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:42 AM

Way to go, MMario!!

And Child Ballads are right down my [dirt track thru the woods], too!

Wait till I send this thread to some of my friends!

Um, Minnesinger, Malcolm may have been referring to recorded performances or concerts; I don't think you have to worry about small gatherings such as wakes.... 'tho I could be wrong.

WinterChild

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

I meant mainly just to say "don't take too much for granted". It depends on where you learnt a song, and what had been done to it previously; and what arrangements the country in which you live has concerning copyright and the collection of Mechanical and Performing Rights charges. Nobody's going to come after you for singing a song in an informal setting (or any other kind, for that matter) but a venue that regularly hosts musical events may have to pay a license fee up front to cover "inadvertent use" of copyright material. If you make a commercial recording, of course, stricter rules apply.

Some of the tunes in Bronson were reproduced by permission of their owners (don't forget that some were collected by, or from, people still living), and similar permissions should, technically, be sought for their reproduction elsewhere. Again, in practice, it is unlikely that anyone would mind in the least unless there were money involved or the printed set were reproduced in facsimile (in which case some formal agreement would be required), but as a normal courtesy such reproduction should in any case always include the names of singer and collector (and, where applicable, editor and publisher). A great many folk song books were published specifically to furnish fresh material for singers, and with no intention of collecting royalties from such use; paradoxically, the songs in such books tend to be the most altered from the (often garbled or incomplete) forms in which they were found in tradition, and are in some cases virtually new compositions (though made with re-cycled materials). The copyright status of such material, though it undoubtedly is copyright, tends to be theoretical only; never enforced (so far as I know) where someone sings or records the material; reproduction in print or equivalent is another matter, though I doubt if anyone would bother much about it except in the case of clear abuse.

In the case of The Famous Flower, there are a number of traditional tunes known for it (including some found since Bronson published); the DT file has two (uncredited) tunes, one of which is traditionally associated with the ballad (a version from New Hampshire, as it happens); the other, though traditional, belongs to a quite different song. Martin Carthy learned it from Hedy West, and set his re-written version of The Famous Flower to it. The DT text is not in itself a traditional one, but is a collation made from bits and pieces from various sources, but chiefly Carthy, who added a certain amount of material which does not appear in traditional versions.

As it happens, we know who wrote the original ballad (it was Laurence Price, and he registered it in 1656) but doubtless he based it on earlier material of some sort (not necessarily a song). That doesn't affect its status as the traditional song it subsequently became, though. There are times in the life of a song, however, when, even if it is indisputably "traditional" in some of its forms, a particular example of it will be "fixed" in a particular shape, whether through the publication (and consequent entering into the copyright cycle) of a particular version, or by the intervention of an editor or performer who consciously re-shapes it, sometimes quite radically, for artistic purposes. In this way, there can exist both public-domain and "owned" forms of a song.

Is the "owned" form still traditional? Opinions will differ, and I am not the judge of them; but my feeling at the moment is that a song found in tradition and published "as is" is unaffected except insofar as the collector and source have a legal interest in that version of it (which they may choose not to enforce); whereas a form consciously and significantly modified for publication or for recording is not a "traditional version", though it may be a version of a thing that is traditional; and may in its own right eventually enter tradition alongside its cousins still living in the wild, so to speak.

Little of this need concern Minnesinger; I mention it because it's a topic I find myself having to consider quite a lot just at present, and to illustrate the point that the whole "traditional/public domain/owned" question is a great deal more complex than is generally realised.

Oh yes, the source of the Scarborough Fair tune that Paul Simon got from Martin Carthy. That particular version came from Mark Anderson, a retired lead-miner of Middleton-in-Teesdale, Yorkshire, in 1947. It was printed in Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger's book The Singing Island in 1960, noted in a combination of 6/4 and 9/4 time.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 10:57 AM

this has been going slowly lately - but added

Bronson 95.23 The Hangman's Tree
Bronson 95.33 The Maid Freed from the Gallows

Bronson 39.1 Hold Up YOur Hand - skipping

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:32 PM

The Child Ballad Collection is an interesting project - an attempt to catalogue all the recordings of Child Ballads.
Take a look.
I tried to install their database on my computer, but I couldn't get it to work on Windows Vista (I don't have Microsoft Access, and the runtime version they provided won't work on Vista).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:32 AM

This seems similar this site which I've mentioned before: Child Ballads Project. Is it related or an independent venture?

Mick

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: chrisr18
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

Can anyone recommend to me any good print editions or sites available online of the Child ballads that have the tunes included? These are all wonderful sites and great resources but none of them seem to have the music written out. Thanks for any help.

Chris

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:26 PM

Child only published the words of the ballads. He was a literature professor and as such was not really interested in the tunes.

You can find copies of the words to the Child Ballads here

Tunes to which many of the Child Ballads were/are sung have been published but I do not think you will find that information gathered in one place on the web. There are other 'Catters who know much more about this than I do and who will hopefully post more information.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:31 PM

I don't know of any online sites.   I *think* the loomis house versions include the bronson tunes.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

The site Joe linked to in Jan. and the one MickMCP notes are linked insofaras the authors are two of those involved in collecting & posting as many recorded versions of the Child ballads as possible. They...(and 2-3 others) just finished a 2nd round of collecting & posting and are continuously adding new versions (and in some cases VERY old versions from long out of print recordings). There are over 5000 examples now..(including some instrumentals and some in languages other than English)

I have followed their progress for 2-3 years, and it is amazing to see & hear some of the ways the ballads have been interpreted and processed...some good and some...well, 'different'.

It is helping me clarify some of the stories and relationships between the ballads....and learn about some singers I had not heard of who do fine jobs on some of the ballads. I have some new ideas about where to seek good music!