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BS: Witches! Good and Bad?

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Micca 29 Jul 03 - 03:36 PM
Micca 29 Jul 03 - 03:31 PM
Amos 29 Jul 03 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Mathew Hopkins 29 Jul 03 - 08:00 AM
Micca 29 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Green Man 29 Jul 03 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,bryn 29 Jul 03 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Mathew Hopkins 28 Jul 03 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Mathew Hopkins 28 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM
Green Man 28 Jul 03 - 09:27 AM
harpgirl 28 Jul 03 - 08:16 AM
Alba 28 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Bryn 28 Jul 03 - 07:08 AM
Hrothgar 28 Jul 03 - 04:39 AM
Amergin 28 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM
Amergin 28 Jul 03 - 12:28 AM
CapriUni 28 Jul 03 - 12:25 AM
Sorcha 28 Jul 03 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 28 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM
katlaughing 27 Jul 03 - 10:26 AM
CapriUni 27 Jul 03 - 09:13 AM
JennyO 27 Jul 03 - 03:47 AM
Bert 27 Jul 03 - 02:06 AM
Bert 27 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM
CapriUni 27 Jul 03 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Jul 03 - 11:17 PM
katlaughing 26 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM
Amos 26 Jul 03 - 01:44 PM
Catherine Jayne 26 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM
Amos 26 Jul 03 - 12:12 PM
CapriUni 26 Jul 03 - 09:23 AM
Bert 26 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM
Catherine Jayne 26 Jul 03 - 04:18 AM
Ebbie 26 Jul 03 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Jul 03 - 03:30 AM
Dead Horse 26 Jul 03 - 02:55 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 03 - 01:02 AM
Sam L 26 Jul 03 - 12:38 AM
Sorcha 26 Jul 03 - 12:31 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM
Sorcha 26 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 11:58 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 11:51 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,which ol' witch 25 Jul 03 - 06:31 PM
hesperis 25 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 05:53 PM
akenaton 25 Jul 03 - 05:43 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 04:19 PM
harpgirl 25 Jul 03 - 04:16 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:36 PM

Wiccan talk we don't want to inhibit
From websites and books one can crib it
But Amos replied
"It comes from inside"
and the rest of his message read………." Ribbit"


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:31 PM

That Grizzled old bugger called Amos
tracks songs like an old fashioned Shamus
while sat on his pooter
close by his Computer
and drinking iced tea from a Thermos


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:24 PM

That shaggy old bugger named Micca
Retired as a horse-apple pickah,
And now spends his time
Dispensing weak rhyme
And historical tracts about Wicca!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mathew Hopkins
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:00 AM

Thank you brother for reporting that nest of satanic evildoers.
Even the colonies have succumbed to the Devils temptations.
Nathaniel!!
Saddle my horse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM

hg and others,this may help to clarify at least one of the questions above about Wicca Try here


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Green Man
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:50 AM

Is that the Mathew Hopkins who USED the Hammer of Witches

The same torture manual that the current pope apologised for.?

I always thought Vincent Price did hime really well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,bryn
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:02 AM

Matthew Hopkins - you aren't the Matthew Hopkins I went to school with are you (some parents are cruel!)or are you the man himself re-incarnated - you realise of course that if you are claiming to be the reincarnation of MH, you probably ought to start by hanging/burning/drowning yourself for blatantly being the devils handywork? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mathew Hopkins
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:15 PM

Or Drown em.
Drownings good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Mathew Hopkins
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM

Burn em, burn all !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Green Man
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:27 AM

My Wife is a Wiccan, I just don't hold with the rule of three. I see it in the same light as all of the 'thou shalt not's' contained in the dogma of another well known religion.

Witches come in all shades and sizes, I have known some malevolent ones, however it is written 'beat those arond you with a stick and some one will beat you with a stick' here is the rule of three simplified.

I know some very 'good' witches, and they're just ordinary people getting by and helping others in their own way.

Who is to say that because the old religion predates the better advertised ones that it contains any more truth?

This I think is a question that, when you find the answer to we will see you on May hill at dawn dancing in the summer or at one of the other seasonal festivals or rituals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 08:16 AM

...back from walking the beaver dam and soaking in whitey's spring. Glad you all decided to share what you know about the many aspects of "witchery." love, harpgirl


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Alba
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM

Nice choices on the Music thread too Bryn. Blessed Be.

Kat, I use Dandelions in Salads and to make Tea and Wine, although I haven't made Wine for a few years now. The tincture you make, can it be used in the Bath as a relief for Rheumatics?
As for the term Non-Gardener, that's quite a good description of someone that does not try control Nature but who Harvests Her Bounty. I like that:>)
Ah but Spinners of Tales, were would I be without the Folk's with that particular Gift. Were it not for them I would only be able to stretch my Mind as far as I could take it, Word Weavers take those thoughts of mine and expand them and more often than not They open my eyes to the things I had never dreamed of. A truly Magical Gift.
There's a song in that name "Dandelion Row" though!:>)
JD


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,Bryn
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:08 AM

Witches fall into several categories.
1) Those who are practising something handed down through their family (this does exist).
2) Wicans, who really speaking are slightly different and follow a path of witchcraft laid out in the early twentieth century by gerald Gardner or Alex Sanders.
3) Wicca inspired witches, who follow the principles of Sanders and/or Gardiner but who have not been initiated into a coven in this tradition.

yes, many witches do work in groups that they call covens. Many also work alone. there are few hard and fast defenitions I'm afraid, for every witch there's a slightly different way of doing and being it.

It might be helpful to add that for many, Wicca or witchcraft is considered to be a path within Paganism, which also includes Druidry, Heathenry, Shamanism and the like. Generally speaking these are beliefs and practises derived from the ancient nature religions of the world. Pagans are no more good or evil than anyone else when you get down to it - its a set of philosophies, for some there's significant festivals.For some its about a very positive ethos of self discovery within a repsonsible context, for some it is intensely ecological, for some its jsut about personal growth. Some perform rituals, some don't, some explore the way in which will acts upon relaity (call it magic, call it prayer, call it positive thinknig, as you see fit.)

Many Pagan groups online spend long hours trying to come up with working defenitions of what these terms mean, I don't think we are going to achieve much on a list where a significant number of posters have no knowledge or expereince of the subject.

Unfortunatly, what you tend to see in the press and in public are the few more eccentric types who like to get in front of the cameras, and this, as with most communities, is seldom a good illustration of the whole. I would recomend that anyone genuinely interested in further information pays a visit to www.paganfederation.org


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:39 AM

I can't tell which is which ......


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM

as for abby...she was just trying to cause trouble...


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:28 AM

"Wicca and other forms of paganism are just a lot more up to the individual than formal, mainstream organized religions. Nobody tells us what we have to do, believe, what rituals are acceptable, etc. A lot of it it nature and female oriented."

Unfortunately, Sorchadear, that is not exactly true...I know plenty of folks who have had the rede shoved in there face, telling them they have done wrong...just like I knoe plenty of Christains who have had the bible shoved in their face....

Luckily there is no good...nor is there any evil....also I guess it is just as well that I have no religion to cling to....not even atheism...


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:25 AM

Too bad Abby decided to check out of this thread.

Well, maybe she's lurking....   Hmmm... Should someone PM her?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:12 AM

Too bad Abby decided to check out of this thread. She finally got some answers. Oh well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM

An awful (root AWE - FULL - full of awe) lot of things in your life Linx-Ludicrous.... are in the used to make/do

Are you lacking the time, the dandelions, the motivation - or was it REALLY not THAT good the first time?

Eagarly waiting your reply...

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 10:26 AM

Thanks, CU and Bert! I love dandelions, too. Used to make tincture from them. Our neighbours used to call our house "Dandelion Row."

Bert, fwiw, the membership is fixed and available; apparently the choice is not to use it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 09:13 AM

Bert: I just love weeds - sorry wild flowers. Dandelions (pissabeds) are my favourites.

Yay!! We should start a Dandelion brigage (Or I could at least start a Dandelion Thread)!

Gargoyle: ....a spinner of tales and promises is an invalid to some...and lier to others.

And a healer and bringer of joy to still others.

Ann ~ Despiser of herbicides and golf course lawns, and proud spinner (and listener) of tales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: JennyO
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 03:47 AM

CatsPHiddle has said it well. A witch's intent generally is to do good, for other beings and for the healing of the planet - "Do as you will but harm none".

I personally believe that everything is alive in some way, that we are all part of the whole of what is, and therefore connected, and so I try to treat all things and beings with respect, as whatever I harm will in some way harm me. We (witches) have a generally accepted idea that whatever harm we do will return to us "three times three" - like the law of karma - so it is obviously not in our own interest to do harm or wish harm on anybody.

The idea of good witches or bad witches in this context is obviously not relevant. If an misguided individual is trying to use their power to effect change in a harmful way, or to have power over other people, they are missing the point, and will not do well themselves.

The devil as such has no place in this view, either. There is simply what is, which we are a part of, and any of us has the potential to tap into this collective energy, and use it for good or harm. Since I believe that whatever I do to others I do to myself, I choose to do good. Of course, I don't always get it right, because I am only human, but the intent is there.

Coming as I did from a strict Methodist family, I hated the feeling I was given that being a human being with faults meant I was a sinner and needed to be "saved", and God was some sort of stern father figure "up there" (unfortunately that is often the impression given in so-called Christian churches). I felt very disconnected for a long time, when I was growing up.

I never bought into the sinner idea at all however, in spite of my years of conditioning, and I always felt a strong connection with nature, so I was delighted to discover paganism and modern Wicca many years later. It just gave what I already felt was true, a name. I like it because it is not judgmental. The only laws are the laws of nature - the laws of cause and effect. That is probably why it all seems so diverse and disorganized to non-pagans. We are not into telling people what to do.

Since then I have discovered in many ways just how much of a difference one can make with the right intent - just look at the collective healing powers of Mudcatters when they put their minds to it!

There is a lot more, but that's a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 02:06 AM

Hey Garg ol' buddy, how're ya doin?

If yer ain't got the balls to call Max and fix you're membership, drop me a line at alberthansell@yahoo.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM

CapriUni, Wot you again. It's a good job I'm happily married or I'd be after you. ;-)

I just love weeds - sorry wild flowers. Dandelions (pissabeds) are my favourites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 12:01 AM

"Weeds" are beautiful!!

Long may this Earth be blessed with bio-diversity!!!

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 11:17 PM

Random House - seems pretty close to the Oxford English definition little Chattering Chetah - you may choose to call yourself what you may...but a non-gardener is still in adoration of weeds....while the rest of society considers it sloth....a spinner of tales and promises is an invalid to some...and lier to others.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM

The second definition, used by Wiccans, is simply a woman who learns natural but obscure powers. Not just women, Amos.

By the old patriarchal and fundementalist Christian meaning, anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs could be and has been labeled a witch and/or pagan. It was and is just another way of trying to "lord" it over anyone who thinks for themself. In the burning times it was often "uppity" women who were accused and murdered, often because they owned property which someone envied and desired for themselves. They were also wise-women in the way of herbs and childbirth. When men started co-opting those realms the women became threats to their livelihood and were best kept out of the way through accusation, torture and murder.

I know plenty of Christians who reject such a definition. In fact there is an Episcopal priest in Wyoming who didn't miss a beat when he greeted me and said he hoped to see me in church on Sundays and I said since I considered myself pagan he probably wouldn't, to which he promptly replied pagans were welcome, too.

Lots of words have changed in meaning over the years...this is one that is slowly changing for the better, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:44 PM

RIght. My point exactly -- to a pagan there can be good or bad witches, since badness surely exists even though Satan does not. To a Christian the word is reserved to connotate evil -- it is therefore a different territorybeing mapped to by the same symbol. Always a good source of confusion.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM

Pagans and the many denominations of Paganism do not believe in the devil. The devil simply does not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:12 PM

There are two (at least) different defintiions of "witch"; the first is a Christian-testament sort of definiton, which matches the earlier reference (woman using powers from an agreement with Satan). Evil by definition, or at least fallen. Good way to marginalize a whole section of society.

The second definition, used by Wiccans, is simply a woman who learns natural but obscure powers. Wiccans do not see themselves as satanic because the aspire to claim a culture that goes preChristian. Nor do they see themselves allied with evil.

SInce the notion of "good witches and bad witches" was popularized (Wizard of Oz) I suppose they must use a generalized definiton. If you use the Christian definition, Harpgirl was correct in her original post -- labeling something or someone a witch means a satanic quality. By definition.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: CapriUni
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 09:23 AM

Harpgirl I just thought that with all the talk about witches around here, some of these witches and witch sympathsizers would have something reasonably enlightening to say about the differences.

Okay, I'll try.

People who pray and meditate through the practice of witchcraft are called "Witches." Real witchcraft is a form of prayer and meditation more than anything else. It helps the practicitioner focus his or her mind on a goal, while opening the imagination to the Divine pressence. It has little or nothing to do with fictional witchcraft -- real witches can't turn people into frogs, or children into gingerbread people, or clean the house by wiggling their noses. Real witches are also mortal, and not a seperate, or immortal, subspecies of human. One reason your question might have drawn the ire of some Mudcatters is that the very question itself implies that witches are seperate from the rest of humanity (you may not have meant it that way, but if people interpret it that way, that's enough to provoke the raising of a few hackles).

Many witches follow some form of Pagan, or Neo-Pagan, faith -- in other words, one that sees the Divine as revealed through the natural world rather than through scripture (many of these faiths are polythesitic, but not all). Some witches, however consider themselves Christian, or Jewish, for that matter.

In other words, witches are simply humans who pray and meditate in a certain way.   Like all humans, there is a little good and bad in them all. Telling a good witch from a bad witch is as simple and tricky as telling a good person from a bad person.

I hope this has been of some help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM

A good witch is someone who helps people using knowledge gained from experience handed down through many generations (kinda like folk music). As a lot of this knowledge is not known by ordinary folks it was/is considered mystical or magical.

A single example will suffice, the wise ones, witches, healers, or whatever you like to call them were using mouldy bread to cure infections many hundreds of years before Alexander Fleming 'discovered' penicillin.

Because, long ago, this kind of knowledge was not known or accepted by those in power in Europe, namely The Christian Church. The Church had to get rid of these people who were a threat to THEIR knowledge which they were foisting on the ordinary people. SO, they said that these wise ones were bad and that their knowledge was the work of the devil, and they killed them because they were BAD WITCHES.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 04:18 AM

Magic (witchcraft) is colourless...so there isn't a black witch or a white witch. It is the intent behind what you are doing that makes it good or bad. Im what you could a witch but practice a more traditional side of Witchcraft which means I am not strictly Wiccan....If you want to know more PM of if you are in London UK come and speak to me and my friends and family and we will be happy to answer your curisoities. Come to Pagan Events and ask people about it all and the various traditions within Paganism and Witchcraft you will be suprised how friendly we all really are.

Oh.....and I don't ride a broomstick.....I ride a dyson!!!*BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 04:11 AM

Gargoyle, is your obsession no better yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 03:30 AM

I like your style GUEST - shedding a little light in the darkness. (BTW Many scriptural references to those who shun the light and prefer darkness.)



Random House Dictionary of the English Language - Unabridged Jess Stein Editor, New York, 1973, p.1632



wick-ed (wik'id) 1. evil or morally bad in principle or practice: sinful: vicious: iniquitios: wicked people: Wicked habits. 2.   mischievous or playfully malicious: These wicked kitten upset everything. 3.   distressinly severe as a storm, wound, or colf: This has been a wicked winter. 4. unjustifiiable: dreadful: beastly: wicked prices; a wicked exam. 5. ill-natured vicious: troublesome or dangerous: wicked roads 7. unpleasant: foul; a wicked odor 8. Slang excellent; masterly; He plays a wicked trumpet. He's a wicked man on bass. [ M.E. wiked, equiv. to wikke bad (OE wicca wizard, used as adj.) + ed (-ede -ed) See WITCH



-SYN - unrightous, ungodly, godless, impious, profane, blasphemous; unprincipled; immoral, corrupt, depraved, dissolute; heinous; infamous; amoral, vile, flagitious, atrocious, villaninous.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle



It is nice to find the kitty's tail has been caught, pinched, and she is not stopping my postings at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 02:55 AM

This thread is just turning into a witch hunt.
There, I said it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:02 AM

Another good place to look something up is at www.encyclopedia.com.

Here is that website's entry for witchcraft:

witchcraft   
Related: Miscellaneous Religions

a form of sorcery, or the magical manipulation of nature for self-aggrandizement, or for the benefit or harm of a client. This manipulation often involves the use of spirit-helpers, or familiars.    Public uses of magic are generally considered beneficial; sorcery, on the other hand, is commonly practiced in private and is usually considered malevolent. Nevertheless, accusations of sorcery are frequently public and explicit. Anthropologists have observed that in societies that lack formal political processes, sorcery accusations are often an indication of other social and economic tensions and conflicts. They have analyzed the killing of accused sorcerers as a form of control through which antisocial people are eliminated and social cohesion is reinforced. Anthropologists distinguish sorcerers, who acquire their powers through study and initiation, from witches, who inherit their powers. In some cultures, especially European, however, the two terms are used interchangeably.

    European diabolical witchcraft was a form of sorcery that appealed to pre-Christian symbolism and was associated by Church leaders with heresy. The origins of witchcraft in Europe are found in the pre-Christian, pagan cults such as the Teutonic nature cults; Roman religion; and the speculations of the Gnostics (see Gnosticism ), the Zoroastrians, and the Manicheans. These religions and philosophies believed in a power of evil and a power of good within the universe. Later, among certain sects, the worship of good was repudiated as false and misleading.

    Religious persecution of supposed witches commenced early in the 14th cent. Trials, convictions, and executions became common throughout Europe and reached a peak during the 16th and 17th cent. Under the authority of the Spanish Inquisition, as many as 100 persons were burned as witches in a single day. The auto-da-fé, as this mass burning was called, took on the qualities of a carnival, where one could buy souvenirs, rosaries, holy images, and food. Suspicion also fell on many who were interested in scientific experimentation. The colonies of North America shared in this fanaticism, particularly in Salem, Mass., where in 1692, 20 persons were executed as witches. (The state exonerated all the accused men and women in 1711.)

    Early students of European diabolical witchcraft viewed it alternately as an invention of elites who used accusations of sorcery as an excuse to persecute people for material gain, or as a survival of pre-Christian folk religion. Scholars today seek to interpret it not as a single phenomenon but rather as a complex pattern of beliefs and practices that have been used in different ways at different times. Thus, during the Hundred Year Wars, Catholics and Protestants accused each other of witchcraft.

    In the 20th cent. there has been a revival of witchcraft known as Wicca, or neopaganism. This form of witchcraft has nothing to do with sorcery, and is instead based on a reverence for nature, the worship of a fertility goddess, a restrained hedonism, and group magic aimed at healing. It rejects a belief in Satan as a product of Christian doctrine that is incompatible with paganism.

    See also shaman .



Bibliography: See J. B. Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages (1972); P. Boyer and S. Nissenbaum, Salem Possessed (1974); J. P. Demos, Entertaining Satan (1982); C. Larner, Witchcraft and Religion (1984); S. C. Lehmann and J. E. Myers, Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion (1985); R. E. Guiley, The Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft (1989); R. Briggs, Witches and Neighbors (1996); L. W. Carlson, A Fever in Salem (1999).



Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, Copyright (c) 2003.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sam L
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:38 AM

I thought Do no harm was part of the hippocratic thing with medical doctors.

I don't know about witches. I bought some powder and a candle from a self-proclaimed good one in New Orleans once, my parents didn't mind, I was eight or so. It's easy to make fun of witches as a topic, but the ways we understand the sensible empirical things we know are also going to seem ridiculous soon, if history means anything at all. Our good witches wear white lab coats. They've got promising new truth every few days, but haven't cracked any big items lately. Old diseases are piling up, new ones popping up everywhere. And the best ideas seem to be make money to spend money, live by rules, and count the minutes. Whee!

Every member of my immediate family has been slated for invasive surgeries it turned out they didn't need. At all. Some of the surgeries would've been utterly disfiguring, some of the family members, more than once mis-diagnosed.

I believe in a few odd things. Thinking about something seems to make it more likely to happen. When you travel you meet the people you want to meet in any town, when you live there, they live across the street and you never do. The only thing that endures for me about my childhood interest in witches is that books about them were the only place to see pictures of ordinary naked women. That still means something to me, somehow.

I guess you tell something good from something bad by whatever you think you know. The bad witch these days is often merely an educated idiot, with the power to do harm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:31 AM

Wicca and other forms of paganism are just a lot more up to the individual than formal, mainstream organized religions. Nobody tells us what we have to do, believe, what rituals are acceptable, etc. A lot of it it nature and female oriented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:08 AM

What do practitioners of the Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, and Hindu faiths, and all their offshoots, cults, etc. actually do?

They pray, chant, sing, dance, conduct rituals, read about and discuss their beliefs, pass laws and uphold traditions they believe reflect the will of their gods and goddesses, that sort of thing. Some, though not all, have requirements or expectations of practitioners doing community service of some sort, or at the very least, engaging in what the church fathers of their particular faith deem to be meaningful work. Curses and blessings are just different sides of the same coin in most traditional cultures, including Christian ones, so I don't think wiccans and witches have the market cornered on that.

So the simple, short answer is, wiccans do what practitioners of other religions do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM

Pray, dance, sing, etc. Send good vibes and healing thoughts to other creatures. We just don't do it to Jesus, or Buddha, or any other human, god, goddess in particular. Most of us believe in the power of the Planet, Gaia, Mother Earth or something similar. Ceremonies of blessing, marriage, birth, death, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:58 PM

but what do WICCA practitioners actually do, LR?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:51 PM

I'm absolutely serious when I say that Merriam Webster Online takes seconds to use, even with my 31.2 modem speed. From them, I got this, in about an instant (sorry if this is too difficult for you to follow harpgirl)

One entry found for Wicca.


Main Entry: Wic·ca
Pronunciation: 'wi-k&
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard -- more at WITCH
Date: 1959
: a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature, and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
- Wiccan /'wi-k&n/ adjective or noun

Of course, harpgirl wouldn't have had her shits and giggles in this thread, if she had simply looked up the word wicca in the dictionary. Hence my suggestion she had other motives and intentions when starting this thread than being enlightened by those more knowledgeable than herself on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:34 PM

I'm not...BTW GUEST, I have Webster's at home here now and the number one definition is 1. a person, especially a woman who professes or is supposed to practice magic, especially black magic;sorceress.

According to Webster, what you describe Hesp is actually called a "witch-doctor." So I'm guessing that most of our self-professed witches are actually "witch-doctors."

Wicca is not in Webster's but I'm guessing that those who say they are WICCA practicing witches are practicing their religion. No comment on that. (no information)

Now, Kendall's definition is surely akin to number four in Webster's: a bewitching or charming woman!

No one has mentioned the definition of water dousing as a witchly activity.

(hg, in search of the truth!) LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST,which ol' witch
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 06:31 PM

Everybody here is serious, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 06:19 PM

We don't need to bash people just because they have a question and don't understand what they even mean by that question. How else are people to learn about what witches are?

Harpgirl, I've had experience with healers who were definitely people trying to do the best they could to help themselves and others with powers that some people say don't exist. I've also had the experience of people who call themselves witches who have tried to find a weakness in me that they could exploit in order to have a greater sense of their own importance and power. (The latter were usually male, but not always.)

So to me, a good witch is one to whom the power is a means (a way of doing something) and a gift from the Divine, not an end (a purpose in itself to be sought) and an innate ability to be used for whatever you want to use it for. In other words, a good witch is someone who balances power and responsibility carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 05:53 PM

The neo-pagan movement is very diverse. It is silly to paint them all with a broad brush, especially when the intent is to create cartoon images of them.

There is such incredible diversity among all peoples regarding belief systems about the divine, the supernatural, the elements of nature, and so on, that is quite disingenous to single out the neo-pagan movements, IMO. They aren't any more or less bizarre than people who believe in Freud or Stephen Hawking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 05:43 PM

My definition of a witch or wiccan is someone who has dicovered the meaning of life how we all fit into the tapestry.Good bad and magic dont really come in to it.Clinton seems to have his head screwed on right regarding this question and i agree with what he says..But I still think these people should be taken seriously as a movement for a better kinder world....


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:19 PM

...oh and thinks misophist. I'll have to read the book to decipher just what you are sketching out, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:16 PM

...nevermind folks...I can't be playful or serious but I'm not going to be cornered...fagedaboutit....byeee


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