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Black Jack Davey Dylan

DigiTrad:
BLACK JACK DAVEY
BLACK JACK DAVY
BLACK JACK DAVY (IN ATLANTIC CITY)
BLACKJACK DAVEY (2)
BLACKJACK DAVID
CLAYTON BOONE
GYPSIE LADDIE
GYPSY DAVEY
GYPSY LADDIES
GYPSY ROVER
HARRISON BRADY
SEVEN GYPSIES ON YON HILL
THE GYPSY LADDIE
THE GYPSY LADDIE (4)
THE HIPPIES AND THE BEATNIKS
THE LADY AND THE GYPSY
THE WRAGGLE-TAGGLE GYPSIES
WHEN CARNAL FIRST CAME TO ARKANSAS


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Gypsies (Cathal McConnell, Child #200) (5)
(origins) Origins: The Raggle-Taggle Gypsy (127)
(origins) Origins: Help with Gypsy Davy (90)
Wraggle Taggle Gypsies in translation (3)
Lyr Req: Seven Yellow Gypsies (Dolores Keane) (8)
Chord Req:This version of Black Jack Davey (Heron) (13)
(origins) Origins: Clayton Boone (Child #200) (10)
Lyr Req: Gipsy Countess (8)
Lyr Add: The wraggle taggle Gipsies, O! (16)
Lyr Req: Gypsy Davy (Doc and Richard Watson) (4)
Black Jack Davy - origin of phrase? (26)
Lyr Req: Hippies and the Beatniks (Miles Wootton) (28)
Origins of raggle-taggle (9)
Lyr Req: The Gypsy Laddie (Tannahill Weavers) (10)
Chord Req: gypsy davy (3)
Lyr Req: Gypsy Laddie (Jean Redpath #200) (8)
Lyr Req: Black Jack Davy (Sheila Kay Adams #200) (6)
Lyr Req: Raggle taggle gypsy (26)
Tune Req: jeannie robertson's gypsy laddies (3)
Lyr Req: Raggle Taggle Gypsie 'O (12)
Tune Req: Raggle Taggle Gypsy Oh ! (7)
looking for Johnny Faw songs (Johnny Faa) (8)
Help: History of Blackjack David-y-ey (30)
Lyr Req: Wraggle Taggle Gypsy (10)
(origins) Origin: Raggle-Taggle Gypsy (6)


Billiam 03 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 03 - 03:54 PM
Billiam 03 Aug 03 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 03 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,IanN 04 Aug 03 - 08:06 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 03 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,IanN 04 Aug 03 - 08:27 AM
greg stephens 04 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,IanN 04 Aug 03 - 10:05 AM
greg stephens 04 Aug 03 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,IanN 04 Aug 03 - 10:17 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 03 - 11:38 AM
Billiam 04 Aug 03 - 03:53 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 03 - 04:40 PM
Billiam 04 Aug 03 - 05:31 PM
Bill D 04 Aug 03 - 05:41 PM
Nerd 05 Aug 03 - 11:56 AM
Steve Latimer 05 Aug 03 - 12:19 PM
Billiam 05 Aug 03 - 01:59 PM
harpgirl 05 Aug 03 - 04:32 PM
harpgirl 05 Aug 03 - 04:43 PM
harpgirl 05 Aug 03 - 04:48 PM
Mark Cohen 06 Aug 03 - 02:14 AM
harpgirl 06 Aug 03 - 09:39 AM
Mark Cohen 07 Aug 03 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,Davey Bob 30 Apr 10 - 08:25 AM
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Subject: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Billiam
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM

Bob Dylan's Good As I Been to You (1992)includes a version of Black Jack Davey and I was wondering where the tune to this version had come from. I would be interested if anyone has the answer.

I know that this song has been the subject of extensive discussion in the past, but I could not find anything of the origins of Dylan's version (though I could have missed something).

Thanks if you can help.


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 03:54 PM

Bob has always been inclined to rework the lyrics and/or the music to traditionals, so this recording may have simply been a brand new version, musically speaking.


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Billiam
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 06:48 PM

True enough as regards the lyrics, which are not so far apart from several tradition versions (see Max Hunter website and Bronson) but the tune is something different which is miles apart from any of those that I have come across so far. Any suggestions???


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:00 AM

Well, like I say, he probably just decided to do it a new way. I note that the serious folk-worthies on this forum are blandly ignoring this thread. I wonder why? Is it not a pure enough subject for you? Or are y'all simply at a loss for words?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: GUEST,IanN
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:06 AM

This was the first version of BJD I heard and as consequence I tend to compare other versions (usually unfavourably) with Dylan's.

On reflection Dylan's is closer to being "traditional" (whatever that means) than many - Steeleye Span's version comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:11 AM

Thank God for GUESTS, that's all I can say...


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: GUEST,IanN
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:27 AM

Only a guest because I can't keep cookies on my PC at work!

Some of the folkies on this forum want a good kick up the........

You get the impression they'd have all been the ones slow hand clapping at the Free Trade in Manchester '66.

;-)


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM

Well Little Hawk, the reason I'm not discussing the tune is because I've never heard a recording of Dylan singing it(or William Shatner either, come to that).


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM

It's a funny old world init? The first version I heard was 'spans and I always tend to compare others to that! I am a big fan of Mr Z as well though. Hey! Who had their teen years in the 60's and wasn't? I spent years with a yard or two of the best plywood I could afford in Woolworths and a Lucky Star gob-iron in C trying to emulate that sound;-) I have not heard the 1992 BJD though. Must give it a listen!

The only thing I would bring to the trad/non-trad controversy though is that given time everything that is worth keeping becomes trad! What I find odd is the phrase 'I like folk music' is usualy answered by a) 'Oh , all that finger in the ear, Arran sweater stuff?' or b) 'Oh, all that contemporary mumbling of meaningful lyrics into the microphone?' Both camps get up my nose! Folk music is undefinable!

Cheers and good luck with the research.

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: GUEST,IanN
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:05 AM

Hi Greg

Come along to the 1st Middlewich Open Mic Night on Wed. 20th Aug. I'll do a mean impression of Dylan's version for you!!!

Ian (Salt Town Poets)


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:08 AM

I might just do that,Ian. In which case,i could do the first version I heard: Dick Bishop, singing with the Lonnie Donegan skiffle group.


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: GUEST,IanN
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:17 AM

That would be great!


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 11:38 AM

I just can't resist rattling the ivory cages around here now and then... :-) I rather like Bob's version, but that almost goes without saying, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Billiam
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:53 PM

It is good to have the contributions from people with a similar view of Dylan's excellent version of Black Jack Davey, but it would be even better to know the answer to question originally posed: where did the tune used by Dylan come from?

My researches have led me to the wonderful Max Hunter Folk Song collection on
http://146.7.8.8/folksong/MaxHunter/index.html
which includes seven versions of the song with tunes, and the equally impressive Wolf Folklore Collection on
http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/songs.html
which includes another couple of versions, and several others appear in various book collections.
The diversity of the words and tune is fascinating,
BUT none of the tunes that I can find remotely resembles the one used by Dylan - where did he get it from? (could it be taken from a different song???)

I have been massively impressed by the knowledge and scholarship of many people who have contributed to mudcat discussions in the past, and cannot believe that there is not someone out there with the answer to this question, or at least some suggestions for other material I should be looking at.

Still confident of finding the answer - but suggestions gratefully appreciated

Bill


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 04:40 PM

one of the reasons you get few replies is that the thread was started on Sunday, and the traffic around here drops considerably till Monday evening..

(I know 3-4 versions of the song, but not Dylan's, so I was just being polite for a change and not making smart alec remarks.. ;>)


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Billiam
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 05:31 PM

Dear Bill D

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I am fairly new participant to mudcat discussions, but had been amazed by the rapidity of some of the responses in the past (with people from all over seeming to be in competition to get in thier responses first). As you say, Sunday is probably a slow period.
All the best
Bill


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 05:41 PM

*nodding*...yep, the weekends are quite a bit slower..(I think a few folks post 'mostly' from work..*tsk*)...but as the east coast of the US gets home from work on Monday eve, things pick up...and I'd bet that Tues, Wed, & Thurs are the heavy days...


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 11:56 AM

I haven't heard the BD version in years, so I don't know the answer for sure, but Woody Guthrie had a version of this song from his mother which he recorded. BD being such a big WG fan, it might make sense to compare those two versions.


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:19 PM

Dylan's version is he only one I recall hearing. Good As I Been To You is one of those little gems in Bob's career. It didn't sell very well, but I really like it. Just Bob, his guitar and a collection of great old songs.


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Billiam
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:59 PM

Dear Nerd

Thanks for the suggestion. I listened again to the Woody Guthrie version (another excellent variant of the same song) and though the words have quite a lot in common, the tunes are greatly different. The WG tune fits to a major chord sequence (as do most of the other versions that I have come across) but the Dylan tune has a distinctly minor or modal feel to it. Here I run across the limitations of my musical knowledge, could Dylan have somehow modalised the tune, or does another elusive source exist? I would love to know, and live in hope that there is an expert somewhere on line who has this sort of knowledge at their fingertips.
Many thanks for the reminding me about the WG version anyway.
All the best Bill


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:32 PM

...I've just found my copy and it seems to be in Emin. He seems to be playing a triplet pattern. There are only about two more chords, I think...an A and something else...maybe 72 beats a minute or something like that...anyone really know? I think it should be modal at any rate....This is one of my favorite Dylan recordings...hg


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:43 PM

oops! Gmin Dmin FC...no wonder, I don't play it...I need another harp! hg


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:48 PM

Here is a link:



http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/35_gaibty/black_jack_davey.htm


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 02:14 AM

And here is a variation. (I don't know which melody this is based on.)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 09:39 AM

jeezus, mark...your parodies are brilliant and sooooo soooo very naughty!!!


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:43 AM

Thanks, HG, but I wouldn't consider them naughty...unless you mean the Barry Manilow reference.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan
From: GUEST,Davey Bob
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:25 AM

All these years later, is anyone still looking for an answer to the question?

I haven't heard the source, but Clinton Heylin says (in 'Dylan: Behind Closed Doors', Penguin, 1996) that "although Dylan was performing Gypsy Davey as early as 1961, this version of the well-known traditional yarn of infidelity was almost certainly taken from Mike Seeger's 1988 recording (on 'Fresh Old Time String Music')."


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