Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 05:09 PM

You're wrong about those houses, Grishka. In fact, the building materials are much cheaper than those used at the time Malvina Reynolds wrote the song. Drywall and particle board and PVC have
replaced most of the more durable building materials in the big developments, and what may appear to elegant, solid exteriors are generally thin layers of facing,stuccoor PVC siding. Hardwood floors tend to be expensive options, with carpeting over poured concrete flooring or particle board being pretty much standard. And lots of veneer.

Though these houses may seem solid and imposing, they often begin to deteriorate even before they are finished.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 05:14 PM

Thanks for your long explanation, Joe. Now, if the song is about really affluent persons (in 1962), as Jeri confirms, why would they live in prefabricated houses of shoddy material? Is that only meant allegorically, like "All flesh is but grass; all human masonry is but ticky-tacky"? Thus Q, Lehrer, the Wiki author and many other critics misunderstood the song with its pejorative word ticky-tacky?—

I think that the song "Little Boxes" actually helped to change California urban planning for the better, and much of the sameness of California housing tracts has disappeared.

It may even have had a worldwide effect - quite an achievement! Nevertheless, the song is not primarily about disastrous urban planning, but about its grateful (?) customers: these turn out "all the same" themselves, giving up their individual personalities. This, Jeri, is certainly a criticism, thus a reason to take offence. I do not think Mudcatters such as Stim would recognize themselves in that description, since they do have "a life" and individual hobbies. (Besides, Stim, I do not think that in any society "everyone is going to wind up getting pretty much the same thing", not even in the former Soviet Union, let alone in California.)

If we assume the "real ticky-tacky" hypothesis, I imagine parents working hard, and living in modest housing in order to save every dime to send their children to good universities. But the song seems to suggest that the parents have those lucrative academic professions themselves, which contradicts the hypothesis. I tend to agree with Jeri that there is a little mistake in MR's concept.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 06:05 PM

Some people would take offense at the sun rising.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 06:21 PM

I think you miss the point,Grishka. We live in a time of mass production-more and more people live in the same houses, wear the same clothes, eat the same food, and more and more, our lives seem to fall into that pattern of sameness, too. That's it.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 06:32 PM

If you are happy to be perceived as a conformist made of ticky-tacky, who am I to object. MR was definitely critical of that property, since she used a clearly pejorative word (or re-coined it into a noun, from an adjective of known pejorative meaning).

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 06:47 PM

Now, if the song is about really affluent persons (in 1962), as Jeri confirms, why would they live in prefabricated houses of shoddy material?

I think we can read too much into one word, at least when that word is "ticky-tacky". I don't picture the houses the song's describing as cheap or shoddy in construction. It's more that they will have been thrown up quickly, designed for show rather than architectural merit, and all with the same lack of taste. As I understand it, the point of saying "they all look just the same" is precisely that they aren't meant to look the same - they're each designed as somebody's dream house, but they all look the same because all these people are having the same dream.

It's actually much easier to answer the question about building materials in the Chilean context. Victor Jara didn't translate the "all look just the same" line directly; his version says

Las casitas del Barrio Alto,
Todas hechas con recipol

Or:

The pretty houses of the rich suburb
Every one made with Recipol.

Quoting a poster on the Word Reference forums:

"Victor Jara is speaking about a constructive technique used in the richest suburbs of Santiago involving a core of expanded polystyrene, covered with a metallic grid and concrete that allowed for an extreme control in the shape of houses, but that was extremely expensive in the '70s, since it involved, at the time, importing all the polystyrene and paying high importing taxes. This fact alone restricted this constructive technique to those suburbs. "

So there you go - modern, light-weight construction techniques, making it possible to build large houses with unusual designs, were being used by the Chilean 1%. Their houses were made of ticky-tacky, but it was expensive ticky-tacky. But I don't know if anything similar was being done in the Californian outer suburbs that Malvina Reynolds originally wrote about.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 12:44 AM

I worked for a couple months in Denver during my last year of employment, 1999. Within the limits of Denver City and County, it's a wonderful town, full of interesting architecture. Once you cross the city limits, you're in California - a collection of suburbs packed with oversized, opulent, cheaply-made houses with SUVs in the driveways (because people kept their garages full of "stuff" - unused, overpriced toys, mostly). I went up to one house and rang the doorbell. When I pushed the button, the whole wall pushed in. It was vinyl siding, with nothing behind it for support - but the houses all looked very prosperous. That's the kind of neighborhood where houses start looking shoddy after 15 years, and there are neighborhoods like that all over the U.S. There's no room for interaction between neighbors because the driveways and streets are full of vehicles. That's the type of neighborhood depicted in the Weeds introduction. It may look opulent now, but it won't last long.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 04:44 AM

If I now understand correctly, MR was talking about truly wealthy persons in 1962, who did not insist on quality material because they did not care. So we have the allegations

• Conformism, lack of individuality
• Choice of profession according to income and prestige
• Lack of taste; going for show value, however short-lived
• Neglecting durability and quality of living, even though they could afford it.

That makes sense. Those who feel offended because they live in inferior housing for economical reasons, can be replied that they are not targeted, because (typical) Californian doctors and lawyers are not in that group.

Remains the mixture of allegations resulting in stereotyping. In this thread and the other one Do you like 'Little Boxes'?, many valid points are put forward against such stereotypes. Songwriters had best focus on one issue at a time, such as criticizing conformist prestige-seekers. Even if the latter are likely to prefer showy building material to durable one, and choose certain professions, this must not be the primary accusation, and had best not be mentioned at all in a short song. There are much better reasons to criticize that life style.

As I wrote above, the pioneers must be granted some licence, particularly for a song that had an impact on the non-musical world to the better. Nowadays, lyricists must be careful.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 04:47 AM

For what it's worth, here's a rough translation of Victor Jara's version. See my previous comment for the bit about polystyrene. The general referred to was René Schneider.

PRETTY HOUSES

The pretty houses of the rich suburb
Pretty gardens behind their gates
A lovely carport at the side
Just waiting for a Peugeot.

Pretty pink ones, pretty green ones,
Pretty white ones, pretty blue ones
The pretty houses of the rich suburb
All made of polystyrene!

And the people from the houses
They smile as they pay visits
Off they go to the supermarket!
Everyone has a TV.

Some are dentists, some are landlords,
Some are traders in import/export,
Some are lawyers, some are landowners,
And they all wear nylon suits.

The play bridge, they drink martinis
And their kids have little pink faces
And with other little pink kids
Off they go to high school

A little later, Daddy's little boy
He goes to the university
To begin his serious studies
Of the complexities of society.

He smokes cigarettes in his Austin,
He plays with bombs and with politics,
And assassinates generals
He's a gangster of subversion.

And the people from the houses
They smile as they pay visits
Off they go to the supermarket!
Everyone has a TV.

Pretty pink ones, pretty green ones,
Pretty white ones, pretty blue ones
The pretty houses of the rich suburb
All made of polystyrene!

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:16 AM

Q...

you keep harping on no other options for returning GIs...

well, my dad served in WWII and came home to Astoria, NY where he met & wed my mom. They lived in a small apartment in Jackson Heights, saved their money & bought land out on the eastern end of Long Island. It took a couple years & we lived in a converted chicken coop while they built the home I grew up in with help from friends & family.

That's what people used to do... and they sometimes used home kits from SEARS and others. And they scrimped to save enough to send their kids to college... often with scholarships. And some, like my uncles, used the GI Bill to fund their own college educations to become an engineer and a geologist.

MR may have written about California but the trend spread across the country and it could easily apply to any number of housing tracts that sprang up like mushrooms. The song appeals to anyone who was or is appalled by both ticky tacky construction and seemingly mindless conformity.

It appeals to me because I rebelled against most of the BS that people wanted to impose upon me merely because I was born female. And because I knew how to build a house that would be sound and last for generations.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 10:38 AM

http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1809682 for alittle light relief , something I posted in 2006 !

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 01:33 PM

Blicky for Leadfingers:
For a little light relief , something I posted in 2006 !

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 01:37 PM

And as an aside, here are some houses made of cast iron! There was a shortage of bricks after WWI; this method of prefabrication turned out to be too expensive.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 02:25 PM

I suppose you can personalize this an make it into some sort of snooty condemnation of the working class, but I never got the impression that Malvina was snooty - and she was a powerful spokesperson on behalf of the working class. I think the message of the song, is that there is a need for wisdom in urban planning. Well-planned developments need not cost any more than the ticky-tacky ones, and they're better for community and they're better for the environment. I know there are political forces that try to denigrate urban planning, but it's a very necessary and constructive function that needs to be done done wisely.
One very important topic in urban planning today, is providing housing for the homeless. There are ways to construct affordable housing that is pleasant, pleasing to the eye, functional, and durable. It takes imagination, but imagination costs very little.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 02:52 PM

may I add that it is not just better urban planning that is needed, but a whole education in cluster development, open space preservation and well thought out infrastucture placement.

They now have college courses that use the building practices of the 1950s & '60s to illustrate what not to do. Better late than never, I guess. But these are not the folks who end up on town planning boards.

This thread is starting to look a lot like the issues that my job has to deal with... lol.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 03:30 PM

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?" - R. King

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 03:36 PM

Good luck, sciencegeek, you need it.

Our county had a well thought out master plan that politicians have gutted by granting developers large scale exemptions, and when that wasn't enough, simply looking the other way while developers exceeded height, density, and egress regulations.

The terrible thing is that most buyers don't realize that the construction materials that support the latest amenities won't last the term of the mortgage. And when the realtor shows them the properties on Saturdays and Sundays, they don't think about what the two lane highway, which was constructed when the area was farm land, looks like at 7:00am, when 1200 families are heading to work and school...

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 03:47 PM

thanks, Stim...

our team just was just discussing two development projects under review... talk about how much sh*t can you cram in a 5 pound bag...

the only open space are the federal wetlands that they left alone to avoid needing a permit from the Army Corps... so we are left with only stormwater compliance thanks to the Clean Water Act. big whoop there...

and thanks to being out in the suburbs, they can't get anywhere without a car.. or cars if a family. Another ant colony of commuters.

my mantra... how many more months until I can retire.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 05:00 PM

I'm not sure how any song of social comment can avoid being snobbish. I guess it's a matter of whether the songs snobbishness coincides with yours.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:02 PM

I'm not sure how any song of social comment can avoid being snobbish.

Quite easily, Dick, exactly as an essay of social comment can. It must make sufficiently clear whom and what exactly it criticizes, and mention (or clearly imply) good arguments exactly to the point. It is snobbish to attack irrelevant features of opponents and to omit argumentation, e.g. "These would-be politicians do not even know how to knot a tie!" or "These ticky-tacky lawyers send their kids to summer camps!"

Song lyricists can leave some of the work to the listener, but should make sure to set them on the right track. "Little Boxes" sends confusing signals.

There is of course more to good rhetorics, and even more to good songwriting. MR definitely had some artistic talent, but was perhaps too quick with her writing to pass the test of time completely unblemished. Of course, many others were and are worse (- yes, I am also thinking of Mudcatters, whose names I won't mention).

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 11:32 AM

There is a difference between a song and a position paper.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 12:18 PM

I suppose you can personalize this an make it into some sort of snooty condemnation of the working class
.,,.

'working class'?????

Doctors & lawyers & business executives are not quite what we would call 'working class' around these parts.

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 01:08 PM

What is the working class today? And in what area and context?
In Calgary, I suppose the working class is mostly in the 22 percent visible minority, immigrants who work in health care, in the stores, restaurants and jobs that do not require certified training (most trades require technical school or certified apprenticeship). Houses in the areas where they have their communities are at the low end of the scale, about $225,000. Those who develop the skills move out to the suburbs or cut-off areas with the rest of us.

Most of what has been posted here, including this, belongs in the BS section.

Most houses today are replaceable. In my neighbourhood, a lot that cost $7000 in 1960 is now at $500,000 or more, the house counting for little. New people are moving in. A current practice is to tear out the house and build a new one that suits.

Is this practice prevalent in the suburbs in the hills of Los Angeles County?
What were the lot prices in the suburbs of LA in 1960? What are the lots worth today?
"Ticky-tacky" houses perhaps, but easily replaced. And the owners sell and move on to other locales for work or retirement or rebuild the house.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 01:26 PM

Dick, indeed, a song is not an essay, that is what I wrote. Nevertheless, they have in common that they can sound "snobbish" (or "sanctimonious" or like manipulative propaganda), either on purpose or unintentionally, but need not necessarily. A lyricist who wishes to convince the unconvinced, and to gain a reputation among sensitive audiences, had best avoid that sound. Even angry or sharply satirical songs need not be "snobbish" in the sense of indiscriminate and apodeictic. Tom Lehrer knew that.

The problem is not restricted to social comment in the narrow sense. Quite a number of songs state some fact such as "Milk bottles are made of plastic nowadays" and directly continue "- doomsday has come". Those of us who like plastic milk bottles will not be convinced, and may in fact think "that snob should be glad to have milk at all, even brought to his door every morning without being woken."

As I wrote, the listener or reader of lyrics and other poetry must do more work than the reader of an essay, but so must the poet.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 01:32 PM

I still think a song must be taken in context with the times in which it was written.

I mentioned Gold Watch Blues above. Obviously those lyrics don't make any sense whatsoever in the 21C. But it's message of 'don't conform', 'get away' 'be yourself', 'don't be pigeon-holed' is pretty much identical with Little Boxes.

I tend to sing the two songs together.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

From DT

"Malvina Reynolds, who lives in Berkeley California, where the
hillsides are bulldozed, terraced, and emboxed, has written a
song before breakfast almost every day for the last seventeen
years, and this is one of her best."

I wonder what time she had breakfast.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM

GUEST Grishka-
Who's snobbish now?

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM

Perhaps you, Dick, by refusing to give reasons ;) ? I am sometimes critical, which is the opposite of snobbish, as I tried to elaborate. Sometimes I cannot help sounding patronizing, against my intention, like most Mudcat posters; this is due to the forces of brevity.

Pointing out non-optimal aspects of existing songs is not an end in itself, but necessary in order to improve our understanding in general, and to encourage good practice in the future. You are welcome to disagree - please mention your reasons, if possible.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 11:44 AM

Henry, that gives an entirely new meaning to the expression "jejune writing style"!

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: GUEST,Nancy Schimmel
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:07 PM

Tacky was a word before the song, but Malvina (my mother) invented ticky-tacky, and was quite pleased when it got into the dictionary. I used to drive that same road and noted that not only did the houses "all look just the same" but they all had similar lamps in the same position in their picture windows. That's what she was writing about.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 08:08 PM

I remember learning that song in music class in middle school back in the 1960s. The term "ticky-tacky" entered my vocabulary at that time and when used, people understand exactly what is meant. Your mother did us all a great service.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:44 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boxes

I always liked the song. Even knowing it was inspired by American architecture, one only has to look at UK housing, particularly from Victorian vintage through to 1960s Britain and beyond - to understand the message. Thankfully I now live in an area that has grown more organically, yet my 25 year old house** is one of a dozen all of a kind, in an extension of a cul de sac with more "of a different" origin all the same. The road curves so the layout is anything but linear, which affords some variety. In the end it is the people that make the community, and these days there is precious little of that!

**yea yea red brick, but only the first storey.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 09:05 AM

"Slight" thread creep. As I take my medication in the mornings this seems to run round my head:

"Little tablets, little tablets
Little tablets taste of icky-yucky,
Little tablets, little tablets, little tablets every day.
There's a pink one and a white one and a red one and a yellow one
And they all taste of icky-yucky
But I take them all the same."

I'll get me (white) coat.

RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 04:44 PM

I just came across a Victor Jara recording of "Las Casitas del Barrio Alto" and added it to the lyrics Phil Edwards posted above. Victor Jara's recordings are good listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOytN0Z3jHw

Subject: ADD: Petites boites (Little Boxes)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 04:57 PM

I'm guessing this is from the McGarrigles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLa6nuUF7DI

Petites boîtes


Petites boîtes très étroites
Petites boîtes faites en ticky-tacky
Petites boîtes, petites boîtes
Petites boîtes toutes pareilles.

Y a des rouges, des violettes
Et des vertes très coquettes
Elles sont toutes faites en ticky-tacky
Elles sont toutes toutes pareilles.

Et ces gens-là dans leurs boîtes
Vont tous à l'université
On les met tous dans des boîtes
Petites boîtes toutes pareilles.

Y a des médecins, des dentistes
Des hommes d'affaires et des avocats
Ils sont tous tous faits de ticky-tacky
Ils sont tous tous tous pareils.

Et ils boivent sec des martinis
Jouent au golf toute l'après-midi
Puis ils font des jolis enfants
Qui vont tous tous à l'école.

Ces enfants partent en vacances
Puis s'en vont à l'université
On les met tous dans des boîtes
Et ils sortent tous pareils.

Les garçons font du commerce
Et deviennent pères de famille
Ils bâtissent des nouvelles boîtes
Petites boîtes toutes pareilles.

Puis ils règlent toutes leurs affaires
Et s'en vont dans des cimetières
Dans des boîtes faites en ticky-tacky
Qui sont toutes toutes pareilles.

Source: Musixmatch
Songwriters: Malvina Reynolds

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 06:12 PM

John Keats's book _The Crack in the Picture Window_ (described in the linked article) is well worth looking up in this connection. It provides the social context in gritty detail, avoiding the foolish taboo on blaming the victim. The turn that the housing market took after the housing shortage following WW2 was a response, sometimes foolish but deserving some sympathy, to a set of real problems.

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Monique
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 06:29 PM

The French adaptation was by New Zealand born singer Graeme Allwright in 1973 (live in 2011). His last verse is quite different though...
"Then they put their affairs in order / and they go to churchyards / in boxes made of ticky-tacky/ that are all, all the same."

Subject: RE: Help: Little Boxes (Malvina Reynolds) ticky-tacky?
From: Monique
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 06:41 PM

Yikes, "Petites boites" was in 1966 in his first LP