Subject: Looking for English folk lyrics From: GUEST,Jeff at jeffreym@jps.net Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:32 AM Would anyone out there please be kind enough to help me find the lyrics to "London Bridge is falling down" (as much as you have) and another old English folksong which is called "The Grand Old Duke of York" (he had 10,000 men...) I want to teach both of them to my five year old daughter who heard them somewhere. I remember singing London Bridge as a child but have only the tune to Grand old Duke of York.
-Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for English folk lyrics From: Brendy Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:41 AM Try these London Bridge is falling down, and The Grand old Duke of York The captions on the links might be arse about face, but they point to the songs. B. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for English folk lyrics From: Brendy Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:43 AM They were ass about face, but there you go!! Brendy - having a problem with the old short term memory!!!! |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for English folk lyrics From: alison Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:57 AM Here's a great site for all those kids songs slainte alison |
Subject: London Bridge is Falling Down From: GUEST,Sheila Date: 13 Feb 05 - 12:39 PM How did you sing and play this when you were young? It has nothing to do with "The Noble Duke of York." I remember 2 children making an arch and all others walking under, with the arms coming down around a child on "My fair lady." What comes after that? Thanks. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:52 PM Take the keys and lock her up (the two making the bridge drop their arms and gently rock the lady to and fro) Then what? |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Cats Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:52 PM Build it up with sticks and stones, sticks and stones, sticks and stones x2 My fair Lady Build it up with needles and pins etc. Between each verse came. here comes a candle to light you to bed and here comes a chopper to chop off your head, one two three. The person that was 'chopped' was out. This was in the Surrey / Sussex / Kent area. There must be regional differences. Have you tried Opies 'Language and Lore of Children'? |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Feb 05 - 02:04 PM Barely remember it, but I remember grade-school girls singing it. This is from Opie and Opie, "The Singing Game," pp. 61-67, with music. (Explanation by nine-year-olds) "You make a bridge with two people, and all the other people line up, and you sing "London Bridge is falling down" and they all go round under the bridge...And when you get to "My fair lady" you catch somebody. And then when you're singing "Sticks and stones will wear away" you swing them about backwards and forwards and round and round - any way you like- as if you've got them in a sieve. And then you take them away and they whisper what they'll have, 'sticks or stones,' and they go to whatever side of the bridge they've chosen. Then you sing "London Bridge" again, but first you whisper what the next verse is going to be, and which person is going to be which thing. The bridge never is mended but it doesn't matter. You have a tug of war at the end." The Opies give examples from the 18th c and cite its existence in the 17th c. The song first appeared in "Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book," ca. 1744. London Bridge is broken down, Dance over my Lady Lee, London Bridge is broken down, With a gay lady. How shall we build it up again... Build it up with gravel and stone... Gravel and stone will wash away... Build it up with iron and steel... Iron and steel will bend and bow... Build it up with silver and gold... Silver and gold will be stolen away... Then we'll get a man to watch. The song became a ring dance by the 1820s. Lots of verses and variants. Surprising that there doesn't seem to be a thread on the song and games. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM Quoted from Opies, cited above. "Fuld does not find the game-tune, as now known, earlier than 1879, when it was printed with the words in A. H. Rosewig, "Illustrated national Songs and Games," (Philadelphia) by W. F. Shaw. The tune for the dance "London Bridge" in "The Dancing Master, 1718, bears no relationship to that for either the song or the game." There are German versions, "Merseburger Bridge." |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 05 - 03:01 PM http://www.enchantedlearning.com/rhymes/abc/l.shtml |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM Additional verses following 'We will set a man to watch---' Suppose the man should fall asleep, Fall asleep, fall asleep, Suppose the man should fall asleep, My fair lady. Give him a pipe to smoke all night, Smoke all night, smoke all night, Give him a pipe to smoke all night, My fair lady. (Oxford Nursery Rhyme book, I. and P. Opie, 1955(1960), p. 76. This version also sung in Boston prior to 1883. p. 208, W. W. Newell, 1883 (2nd. ed 1903) Dover reprint 1963 The version with 'lock her up' was sung in Boston prior to 1883. You've stole my watch and kept my keys, My fair lady! Off to prison she must go, My fair lady! Take the key and lock her up, My fair lady! A version called "Charleston Bridge" was printed in 1786 in the chap-book, "Mother Goose Melodies." Also from Newell. Charlestown Bridge is broken down, Dance o'er my Lady Lee; Charlestown Bridge is broken down, With a gay lady. How shall we build it up again? Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Build it up with silver and gold, Dance o'er etc. Silver and gold will be stole away, Dance o'er etc. Build it up with iron and steel, etc. Iron and steel will bend and bow, etc. Build it up with wood and clay, etc Wood and clay will wash away, etc. Build it up with stone so strong, etc. Huzza! 'twill last for ages long, With a gay lady. The 'needles and pins' verse seems to be fairly recent. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:01 PM Another popular game, "Watch and Chain," about robbery or murder and punishment, is sung to the same tune, and some of the verses have transferred. A verse collected by the Opies near Burnley, is similar to the 'chopper' verse posted by Cats. Chop her up for fi-er-wood, Fi-er-wood, fi-er-wood, Chop her up for fi-er-wood, My fair lady. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM Interesting site here worth reading. I am going to see if there is any mention of it in either Roman or Old English literature; however, I encountered no references in the OE during the year I 'took' the language in university two decades ago. The link is not about the song--it is just some history about the bridge iteslf. http://www.britainexpress.com/London/anglo-saxon-london.htm |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM Neat site for LB's history. http://www.oldlondonbridge.com/romanbridge.shtml |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Feb 05 - 09:05 PM Only speculation is found about the possible existence of the song before the late 17th century. No earlier written records are known. See Opie and Opie, "The Singing Game;" P. Opie," "The Oxford Book of Nursery Rhymes." |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 05 - 09:12 PM Thanks Q. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 05 - 09:45 PM S'more |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Feb 05 - 10:16 PM Oh dear. That sort of website ought to have a health warning attached. It's full of utter rubbish and modern fakelore passed off as fact. If people put as much effort into checking their facts as they put into website construction, there would be less misinformation and fewer outright lies being circulated that will eventually be repeated here by those who just swallow such things uncritically. Only worth a link in order to warn people to disregard anything they read there to do with the "meaning" of nursery rhymes. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Feb 05 - 11:10 PM As long as they are making claims about the song, why not just say that the verse about the 'stone bridge' dates to the Stone Age, etc. The BBC has a good, simplified history of the Bridge on line, but something called the Cortona Player is required to see the model reconstructions. Bridge |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 05 - 11:12 PM Well then just give us the facts then Malcolm. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Feb 05 - 11:36 PM The facts, such as they are, are easily available: see Q's posts. Unfortunately the nonsense is even easier to find, so the occasional cautionary word is needed. Don't be offended, Brucie. Nursery rhymes are surprisingly dangerous territory for the unwary, and we've all been that in our time. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:06 AM Back in the 60s, London Bridge was sold, transported and re erected in Florida. The story was that they thought they were buying Tower Bridge. Keith. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: greg stephens Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:14 AM Malcolm Douglas: I salute your determination, like King Canute with his finger in a dike, to stop the flood of misinfomation about song origins which threatens to engulf us all. Alas, you are doomed to failure, stories last as long as there are people around to enjoy them, and their truth is pretty irrelevant. Having said that, the search for truth is a thing of beauty and worth pursuing; but truth, like the Holy Grail, is a bit elusive(unless you read the Da Vinci Code, in which all is revealed, backed up by impressive scholarship. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Dave Masterson Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:50 AM London Bridge is falling down? Blimey, don't they build anything to last anymore? By the way, we've got a piece of the old one as a paper-weight at home. Bet you really wanted to know that, didn't you? |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 05 - 08:02 AM I read the lady is going to be sealed up alive in ther foundation of the bridge. That was an old superstiton to make the bridge stronger. If that is true, this a very bad song. Parents and teachers should *not* allow their kids to sing it. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: GLoux Date: 14 Feb 05 - 08:22 AM Not Florida. London Bridge is in Arizona. -Greg |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:31 PM Digression- Story of the old lady in the bridge foundations. This is lore from the Opies: "Bridge building is a hazardous undertaking and it has long been thought sensible to propitiate the river with a sacrifice, a human life if possible.--- The Romans used to throw an old man into the Tiber once a year---(later osier figures were used). "A foundation sacrifice of human bones and bones of cattle and sheep were found beneath the arch of old Blackburn Bridge, built 1760-8; and as recently as 1939 an engineer constructing a bridge in Assam was brought a live month-old baby to build into the foundations.---Songs reflecting this belief are known throughout Europe and the East, one of the most famous being that sung about the Bridge of Arta, in which the bridge would not stand until the master-mason built his wife into the masonry. (Also see ODNR, under 'London Bridge'.)." p. 64, Iona & Peter Opie, 1985, "The Singing Game." One heard from children in 1978 (op. cit.); the Opies' called it "a minor act of folk creation." --- Build it up with paper and card--- Paper and card will float away. Build it up with bread and butter--- Bread and butter is eaten away. Build it up with pencils and pens--- Pencils and pens will snap away. (Probably how the 'needles and pins' verse mentioned above by Cats and seen on several nursery rhyme sites got started.) The nonsense mentioned by Malcolm, above, is especially bad in children's websites, where unfortunately it is passed on to a new generation of youngsters who are unable to evaluate the validity of the websites and no longer consult the library. I tried corresponding with a termagant who offers one of these sites (on "Ring around..."), and who asked for corrections and additions. In essence, her response was 'she knew what she knew...' |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 14 Feb 05 - 10:55 PM In our version there's a whole section about what to do with the prisoner once he/she is caught when the hands come down: I'll give the form we used in first vs given here: Here's a prisoner we have caught (Dance round, you ladies all) Here's a prisoner we have caught (To my heigh....get out of the way!) What's the prisoner done to you? Stole my watch and broke my chain. Then off to prison he must go, How much will it take to set him free? A hundred pounds will set him free. A hundred pounds I have not got (Spoken: Throw him in! Which way will you go? His choices are whispered to him- he makes a choice and goes behind his leader- one of the two holding him, and waits there until all are caught and have joined one of the lines. Then, each child holds to the waist of the one in front of him, and the two lines have their tug-o-war). |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:55 AM The game as given by Kytrad is very similar to a version of "Watch and Chain" found in Shipley in Sussex, 1892 (Opies, "The Singing Game," p. 68-69). The tune is London Bridge. The "children formed themselves into two lines and, alternating with two or three children who called themselves robbers and swaggered between the lines, sang as follows: "Hark! at the robbers going through; Through, through, through; Through, through, through; Hark! at the robbers going through; My fair lady. Robbers: What have the robbers done to you; You, you, you; you, you, you? What have the robbers done to you, My fair lady? Lines: Stole my gold watch and chain; Chain, chain, chain; Chain, chain, chain; Stole my gold watch and chain, My fair lady. Robbers: How many pounds will set us free; Free, free, free; free, free, free? How many pounds will set us free, My fair lady? Lines: A hundred pounds will set you free; Free, free, free; free, free, free; A hundred pounds will set you free, My fair lady. Robbers: We have not a hundred pounds, Pounds, pounds, pounds; Pounds, pounds, pounds; We have not a hundred pounds, My fair lady. Lines: Then to prison you must go; Go, go, go; go, go, go; Then to prison you must go, My fair lady. Robbers: To prison we will not go; Go, go, go; go, go, go; To prison we will not go, My fair lady. "After uttering their defiance, the robbers rushed away with the rest of the children after them, and whoever was caught was put in an imaginary prison." It seems amazing to me that these games kept many of the same words and actions on both sides of the Atlantic, and in Australia-New Zealand. It came to America quite early; Mother Goose's Melodies was circulated there. Newell says that the game was mentioned by Rabelais as "Fallen Bridge" in 1533. Newell goes on to discuss the Middle Ages belief that the soul, separated from the body, had to cross a dangerous bridge and "undergo a weighing in the balance." The fall of the bridge was ascribed to the malice of the Devil. Whether any of this is really related to the "London Bridge" game or is just speculation, I don't know. W. W. Newell, 1883 (Dover reprint), "Games and Songs of American Children," pp. 204-211. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: GUEST Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:28 AM Interesting that Kytrad's version retains pounds rather than changing to dollars. The bridge to the other world appears in many versions of the Lyke Wake Dirge |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Feb 05 - 10:32 AM The Lomax 1939 Southern States Recording Trip collected audio of children singing "London Bridge." "London Bridge" it ain't! American Memory Index There are several other children's rhymes in this collection and others at American Memory which can be found by entering London Bridge in 'Search.' An interesting one from South Carolina is "Come to the Sawmill." In "Child's Own Set," Plain Cotillions No. 3, Septimus Winner published sheet music for London Bridge, along with melodies for other rhymes. Philadelphia, Winner and Shuster, 1855. American Memory. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM Actually, although pounds were kept in the game (rather than dollars), our version starts with a very Appalachian line: London's bridge is washed away Dance round, you ladies all; London's bridge is washed away, To my heigh....get out of the way! Talking about our steep hills and narrow hollers (hollows) where almost every rain could wash out the footlog, or swinging bridge across the branches and rivers. Our tune is quite different from the others, with sort of a merry skipping rhythm. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:15 PM Is it possible to post the tune - midi? |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Mrrzy Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:57 PM My kids just do the regular falling down, but then instead of the lock'm up and let'm out that I knew, they've added (I think this is a school thing) Kids go splat as they hit the ground, hit the ground, hit the ground, and We like all the blood and gore, blood and gore, blood and gore... |
Subject: Lyr Add: CHARLESTON BRIDGE IS BROKEN DOWN From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:08 PM Lyr. Add: CHARLESTON BRIDGE IS BROKEN DOWN American, c, 1786. Charleston Bridge is broken down, Dance o'er my lady Lee; Charleston Bridge is broken down, With a gay lady. How shall we build it up again? Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Build it up with silver and gold, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Silver and gold will be stole away, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Build it up with iron and steel, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Iron and steel will bend and bow, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Build it up with wood and clay, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Wood and clay will wash away, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Build it up with stone so strong, Dance o'er my lady Lee, etc. Huzza! 'twill last for ages long, With a gay lady. Song of Charleston Bridge, as printed (probably about 1786) in the chap-book, "Mother Goose's Melodies." "Charlestown Bridge, over Charles River, connected Boston with Cambridge and other suburban towns, before that time onlt accessible by ferry... The bridge was "dedicated" July 17, 1786. ... "The exact verbal correspondence, and absence of the original mode of playing, show that this version of the song, and consequently the rhymes of the pamphlet called "Mother Goose's Melodies," were not taken from the lips of Americans, but reprinted from English sources." The pamphlet containing the song was obtained from a pedlar in Plymouth, Massachusetts, by the father of Mrs. R. W. Emerson, early years of the 19th c. |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: danensis Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM Thinking of burying bodies in bridge foundations, while the recent road widenening has been going on have they found any of the bodies allegedly incarcerated in the bridge foundations of the motorways? John |
Subject: RE: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:32 PM Neat article here. |
Subject: ADD Version: London Bridge is Falling Down From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:49 PM I came across this version while looking for something else. It was too good to pass up. London Bridge
Source: Vermont Folk-Songs & Ballads, edited by Helen Hartness Flanders & George Brown (1931), page 45 Notes:
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: GUEST Date: 20 Jun 09 - 09:35 AM London bridge is falling down London bridge is falling down, Falling down, falling down, London bridge is falling down, My fair lady. Build it up with Wood and clay, etc. Wood and clay will wash away, etc. Build it up with bricks and mortar, etc. And so on, until... Give him a pipe to smoke all night, Smoke all night, smoke all night, Give him a pipe to smoke all night, My fair lady. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: GUEST,The sucker one Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:54 PM 1.London bridge has fallen down, fallen down, fallen down, London bridge has fallen down, my fair lady. 2.Build it up with iron and steel, etc. 3.Iron and steel will bend and break, etc. 4.Build it up with pins and needles, etc. 5.Pins and needles will rust and bend, etc. 6.Build it up with gravel and stone, etc. 7.Gravel and stone will wash away, etc. 8.Build it up with silver and gold, etc. 9.Silver and gold will be stolen away, etc. 10.Then we will set a man to watch, etc. 11.Suppose the man should fall asleep, etc. 12.Put a pipe right in his mouth, etc. 13.Suppose the pipe should fall and break, etc. 14.Take a key and lock him up, etc. 15.London bridge has fallen down, etc. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: GUEST,The sucker one Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM This is the parody of london bridge has fallen down. The great corsini's bridges are falling down, falling down, falling down, The great corsini's bridges are falling down, my fair Taxpayer. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:34 AM Wool and fluff will blow away; Bread and cheese will start to smell; Lego bricks will be taken apart; Elephants will snort and sneeze; Lumps of moss will be eaten by goats; ...minor acts of folk creation in our house on a Sunday morning, when my daughter was a bit smaller. Eheu fugaces. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: GUEST,mayomick Date: 29 Jun 09 - 10:27 AM Sam Henry said in his introduction to an Irish version of the song that the building of bridges was associated with magical and religious rites going back to pagan times - from which came the pope's title "pontiff". I always remember it as being a grizzly sort of game . Kids in two lines would face each other ,cross their arms and hold hands with another child opposite to form a tunnel. At the end of the song a victim would stoop and run through this tunnel of crossed arms while the kids above chanted : Here comes a candle to light you to bed Here comes the hangman to chop off your head Chip Chop , Chip chop |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: Tug the Cox Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM Londom, in the 50's we sang here is a candle to light you to bed here is a chopper to chop off your head. The child caught under the linked arms at the end was out. |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: GUEST,Andrea Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:44 PM London Bridge is falling down, Falling down, falling down, London Bridge is falling down, My fair Lady. Build it up with wood and clay, Wood and clay, wood and clay, Build it up with wood and clay, My fair Lady. Wood and clay will wash away, Wash away, wash away, Wood and clay will wash away, My fair Lady. Build it up with bricks and mortar, Bricks and mortar, bricks and mortar, Build it up with bricks and mortar, My fair Lady. Bricks and mortar will not stay, Will not stay, will not stay, Bricks and mortar will not stay, My fair Lady. Build it up with iron and steel, Iron and steel, iron and steel, Build it up with iron and steel, My fair Lady. Iron and steel will bend and bow, Bend and bow, bend and bow, Iron and steel will bend and bow, My fair Lady. Build it up with silver and gold, Silver and gold, silver and gold, Build it up with silver and gold, My fair Lady. Silver and gold will be stolen away, Stolen away, stolen away, Silver and gold will be stolen away, My fair Lady. Set a man to watch all nigh, Watch all night, watch all night, Set a man to watch all night, My fair Lady. Suppose the man should fall asleep, Fall asleep, fall asleep, Suppose the man should fall asleep? My fair Lady. Give him a pipe to smoke all night, Smoke all night, smoke all night, Give him a pipe to smoke all night, My fair Lady. http://www.rhymes.org.uk/london-bridge-is-falling-down.htm |
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: London Bridge Is Falling Down From: Anne Lister Date: 05 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM In a belated response to Tug and Mayomick ... the "here comes a candle to light you to bed, here comes a chopper to chop off your head" was always part of the song "Oranges and Lemons" when I was a child. Nothing to do with London Bridge, though. Oddly enough it was often sung at birthday parties, although definitely on the macabre side! |
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