BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?

Subject: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Myles Braithwaite
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM

Why can't the Arab nations unite and finaly end the suffering of the people of Palestine once and for all against that little plot of American soil which can seem to do whatever it likes against these poor people.

60 years ago they suffered at the hands of evil, something they seem happy enough to subject us to watch on television programmes daily, as the cry on and on about it. Really I agree that was wrong, but they are proving to be no better in their mass murder campaign. They own America we are all aware of that. And they are allowed to hold nukes with fruitcake Bush giving them his blessing.

I pray for the day that Arab nations sort their differences out and remove the vile legal murdering campaign out there once and for all.

Myles.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

so I can't put you down for a contribution to AIPAC?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

Well, I suppose they can't unite because some seek a peaceful solution, and some seek only war.
I think a peaceful solution and mutual respect is the only way to bring an end to all this killing.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:03 PM

Now the Jews own America? I must write to the Israels and tell them how powerful they have become. I am sure they will be pleased to hear it. I suppose you derived that conclusion from "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" huh? Or was it your reading of "The Hoax of the 20th Century"? Or one of your Stormfront meetings?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:04 PM

77% of Palestine was turned into Jordan, the state of Israel compromises about 7%.   Jordan remains the only Arab nation who welcomed displaced Palestinian Arabs and made them homes as Jordanians. The rest refused to accept them as brother Arabs and forced them into camps. There is no Palestinian language, no Palestinian culture. therein lies the problem. (BTW 860,000 jews were expelled from Arab countries in the 40's Iraq expelled 200,000 and only allowed them to leave with the equivalent of $140 per person everything else went to the state) How we forget our history.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:05 PM

I wonder if Myles is a first-time poster . . . . What are the odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:48 PM

Apart from anything else, if they did unite it would be against the Jews, and it would be a bloodbath.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

What in the world do you mean they don't have a culture? Are you not aware of their beautiful needlework? Dances, music etc. A whole culture surrounding the cultivation of olive orchards and orange orchards. Some things are fair and right to say and some just are not. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

here are some pictures for heavens sake. Thinking a people has no culture is the epitome of something...don't know what..arrogance? Ignorance? No offense. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM

Islamic Art
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:44 PM

The only thing the Arabs hate more than the Jews are other Arabs.

Count up the number of Arabs killed by other Arabs in the past century and you'll really know that the Jews are not the real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

They can't unite for the same reasons that the North American Indians couldn't unite against the Whites...or the various tribes in ancient Mexico could not unite together against the Spaniards: Self-interest and old, long-established enmities divide them. Then too, they lack the effective backing (financial and military) of a Superpower, which Israel has. That always helps.

Also, Israel is only one nation.   Like a solo singer, it can't break up with itself, if you know what I mean... ;-) ...but bands which are composed of several individuals almost always end up breaking up, because the people can't agree on different stuff.

A single power, if it is strong enough to meet its enemies on equal terms (or in the case of Israel, better than equal terms), is a far more stable and effective entity than a temporarily patched-together alliance of several powers. It does not suffer from a divided command.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:00 PM

The only real problem in this entire world is greed. The subjugation of the poor by the rich. The denial of education... of equality. No person, in right mind, would call for the beheading of another over a joke, a cartoon, religion, skin colour... education is the only true weapon against evil. However, it is difficult to educate the poor in countries where the rich in power will not allow it.

Given that... how do you educate these "rich"?

Hint... the verb is close to "educate". I daresn't speak it aloud. Matter of fact, I don't even know why I am posting to this thread. Swore these threads off a while back.

Okay, nevermind. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM

Ah, yes, how does one "educate" the rich, the greedy, and the powerful? Ask the founders of the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the Mexican Revolution, and numerous other such revolutions...and they will tell you.

Unfortunately, however, the idealistic notions that spawn such revolutions usually give way in fairly short order to the establishment of a new and powerful elite...who once again end up exploiting most of the common people for their own gain.

When Emiliano Zapata went in triumph to Mexico City and tried to run the government there in such a way as to redress grievances with the ordinary people of Mexico, he found his purposes confounded by the corrupted bureaucracy around him at every turn. He eventually gave up in disgust and walked away from the job, returning to his own peasant people in Morelos. Sometime later he was assassinated by government soldiers. They couldn't stand to let a leader that honest keep on living...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM

gnu ... right on.

Joe Offer .... right on.

Elimination of greed and mutual understanding is what's needed.

Now gnu ... I'm right behind you on getting out of this thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM

back in for just one more "word" ...

"The only thing the Arabs hate more than the Jews are other Arabs"

actually Guest ... you are very correct on this ... just watch, the whole mideast is going to be awash in civil war ... and it will be very bloody.

..with that ... I'm out for good before the fanatics and wackos come into this thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM

Again and Again it has been observed and is yet to be disproven that you can get these peoples to live together in peace and cooperation after they have tried everything else.

And yeah, Myles' post reminds me of an old Jewish joke where this old man brings a Nazi periodical over to his friend's house and his friend asks him "why do you bring into my house such trash?" to which the old man replies: "The news is much better in this paper. WE control the banks, WE control the media, We control the entertainment industry..."

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Leo Rosten had that in one or two of his many books. That's what I was alluding to. (I believe it was about Czarist Russia.) Did you hear the one about the snipers who were waiting to assassinate Hitler?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM

Then too, they lack the effective backing (financial and military) of a Superpower, which Israel has.

Actually, from the time of the creation of Israel through all of the wars that Israel fought against the massed Arab armies, the Arab nations did have the financial and military support of a superpower, the USSR.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:04 PM

Never forget that the 'refugees' from Israel were NOT driven out , they elected to leave - There are still a good percentage of Israeli citizens who are 100% Arab / Palestinian !

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Peace. No.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

Too many Middle East leaders remain in power only by keeping attention focused on the alleged great enemy - Israel.

They can't afford not to have Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: NH Dave
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

Giok, you are right it would and has been a blood bath, but for the various Arab militants who could neither work together to invade Israel, nor even fight well with their own forces.

Arab "armies" from the entire 20th centuries have been concerned with mounting a brief campaign, taking their hard knocks, or capturing and then looting the defeated opponent, and leaving for home with their loot. Israel, knowing the only place they can leave for is the Med, are much dedicated to the art of modern warfare, knowing that it is the only thing that stands between themselves and annihilation. This is not just my militaristic ramblings here, it is the experience of T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, from his advisory works with the various Arab tribal groups and their forces, during the desert campaign against the Ottoman Turk Empire, during WWI. Additionally, since each tribal group fights for loot and for imposing the will of the tribe, it is difficult to get them to work together towards a single goal, which may not be the goal of any of their tribes. The film used the capture of a fairly large city by Lawrence's tribal groups, with no plans to treat the wounded, get the electricity or water flowing again, and little regard for discussing the terms of peace, or ways to improve civil affairs within the captured city, to bring it back to an operating whole again.

The rest of the Arab Problem also dates back to just after the end of WWI, where the British and other allied forces arbitrarily divided up the Middle East, formerly the Ottoman Turk Empire into various Arabic states, ruled by the "princes" or Emirs who would make the best deal with the Brits for the oil that had been discovered under their otherwise worthless sands. Short years after this arbitrary division British and American oil exploratory companies had located and drilled wells that were producing enough crude oil to fuel another industrial revolution, which depended on transportation, which had been taken over by over the road trucking; as well as leisure activities that involved driving to camping or other vacation spots to recover from 50 weeks of the daily grind.

Until the various Arab states learn to work together, and form armies that can actually perform their intended mission as opposed to parading prettily for their monarch or ruler, a dedicated Israel with everything to lose, will lick them every time, provided that she can replace the armaments expended in the battle. So far the short time source for these war materials has been the US, but the IDF has also grown their own defense factories and companies skilled in taking another's product and improving it into something essentially Israeli, designed to excel in their type of war, and frequently teach the rest of the world something about waging an efficient war.

Israel was vulnerable to air attacks from their neighbors, so they built air bases with all of the base except the runway underground and safe from bombing or missile attacks. They also proved that "hot turns" simultaneously uploading bombs, rockets, ammo, and fuel to aircraft just back from a mission. This is an extremely dangerous way of doing business, requiring very precise coordination, and dedication to safety to keep the operation from deteriorating into a great smoking hole in the desert. Now that the Israelis have proved it can be done, many other air forces are making use of the method in high mission activities like Desert Storm and subsequent actions since then.

Until their Arab enemies can pull their socks up and field modern armed services, that can coordinate with their allies, they will continue to get ground into the dirt each time they attack Israel, unless and only until Israel loses the support of the US. Since Israel is the only friend we have in the middle east, a friend that can provide us with intelligence on the area, material we can not do on our own as we have neither the language skills or the requisite intelligence skills. As I have noted in other posts, the Israelis captured several Russian state-of-the-art SAM sites from Egypt, during one of the late 60's early 70's war, which they offered to the US an partial exchange for several squadrons of F-4's, to replace their recent combat losses. One of our electronic companies which fielded an electronic countermeasure, ECM, pod that saved us many more aircraft over Viet Nam to say nothing of their crews.

Israel currently works under the theory of a Texas football teams which notes, "Mess with the bulls and you'll get the horn!", in their dealings with their aggressive neighbors. Taking a lesson from other agreements hammered out by US or other agencies, resulting in very pretty treaties that were promptly ignored by the Arabian signatories, and little better from the all but useless United Nations, started taking its own defense seriously early in its short life. Its very boundaries at the formation of their little state were the results of answering Arabic attacks with counterattacks of their own with hastily formed defense forces, resulting in Israel fighting for their very boundaries. Since the Russians don't have the money to spend on satellite contrives let alone allies like Cuba and the various Arab states, I'd say they have a pretty good chance of making it in the future too.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

Yes, C.Ham, absolutely....they did have the Soviet Union's support during that lengthy period you allude to (and that's why the Arabs fought Israel with massed armies in that period), but that hasn't been the case lately (since 1989). That was exactly my point. At present, Israel is the only one with the effective backing of a superpower, and that has helped greatly destabilize the whole situation, because you need a relative balance of power in a dispute to keep things from falling apart.

In fact, the whole world has been in far greater peril since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and has seen more wars because of it.

Great wars are triggered when an Empire starts to fall apart at the seams or collapses altogether, because a power vacuum is created and whoever is strongest will try to move into it, against the wishes of many people...and that's when the really serious fighing begins.

America has felt strong enough since the end of the Soviet Union to do as it pleases. So has Israel. That is exceedingly perilous. It's better when major powers are afraid to reach too far, because of what the opposition might do in response. When they lose that fear and become arrogant and absolutely sure of their military supremacy, all bets are off, and any crazy thing can happen...including nuclear war.

It doesn't all happen in a day. It happens in stages, through a series of misadventures, reactions, and counterreactions. At a certain point it becomes uncontrollable. That's what happened in 1914, and it can happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:38 PM

LH: Israel left Gaza under its own steam. They left Lebanon under its own steam. They do indeed have a strong military--so of course that begs the question, "Why did Hezbollah yank their tail?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:51 PM

I don't know, Peace. What I do know is that Israel and all its various Islamic opponents are constantly pulling each other's tail in a great variety of ways. There are probably a great variety of reasons for it too.

There is always a debate in Israel, as there is anywhere, with hardliners on one side and moderates on the other...and policies change. There are always internal power struggles happening in groups like Hezbollah or Hamas too. It's an infernally complicated situation.

The Muslims fighters have sometimes been able to exchange a few Israeli prisoners they took for many of their own people who have been imprisoned by the Israelis, and that may have been precisely what Hezbollah was after....or it may have been something else entirely. I don't know.

Now, however, both Hezbollah AND Israel are afraid of appearing weak, so both are inclined to escalate the fighting. That's dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:04 PM

What y'all are overlooking is the power of Islam, once a uniter, now a divider, in certain cases. F'rinstance in Iraq there was a peace imposed by terror of the leadership, the outnumbered Sunni leadership. The Shiite majority of Iraq are now flexing their numbers as the 'allies' attempt to install a working democracy. The first resort of the insurgency is to bomb the allies, but the second plan is to foment civil war between the two great ethnic groups, Sunni and Shiite. The Shiites resonate with the Shiite Iranians, but there is a huge ethnic divide there, between Arab and Farsi. Meanwhile, the other Arab states are controlled by governments that maintain themselves by one or another force variant. In the majority of cases the only way to oppose the government is through the religious subculture. The Wahhabis in Saudi, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria. So reform got mixed in with religion, not unlike what sort of happened with certain Catholic parts of South America.

There is a huge cultural conflict within the Arab mind, because the Arabs had a period of great cultural flowering and political/military/economic expansion, but have been sidelined for the last couple three hundred years. The reason is they have not processed religion down via the auspices of an enlightenment. The scientific method has not succeeded yet in overthrowing the religious temperament in the average mind.

There is a temporal disparity between the west and the east. Unfortunately, now that the east is getting the bomb, that disparity needs to be addressed. It's way more important than little old Israel, although Israel is like the canary in the coal mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:15 PM

Interesting post there, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:28 PM

Perhaps this will help Guest MG understand my post.
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -



"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".

- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -



"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".

- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -



Concerning the Holy Land, the chairman of the Syrian Delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919 stated:

"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 c.e. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years".

The preceding declarations by Arab politicians have been done before 1967, as they had not the slightest knowledge of the existence of any Palestinian people. How and when did they change their mind and decided that such people existed? When the State of Israel was reborn in 1948 c.e., the "Palestinians" did not exist yet, the Arabs had still not discovered that "ancient" people. They were too busy with the purpose of annihilating the new Sovereign State and did not intend to create any Palestinian entity, but only to distribute the land among the already existing Arab states. They were defeated. They attempted again to destroy Israel in 1967, and were humiliated in only six days, in which they lost the lands that they had usurped in 1948. In those 19 years of Arab occupation of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, neither Jordan nor Egypt suggested to create a "Palestinian" state, since the still non-existing Palestinians would have never claimed their alleged right to have their own state... Paradoxically, during the British Mandate, it was not any Arab group but the Jews that were known as "Palestinians"!

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -



"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".

- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -



"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".

- Walid Shoebat, an "ex-Palestinian" Arab -


How long do "Palestinians" live in "Palestine"?


According to the United Nations weird standards, any person that spent TWO YEARS (!!!) in "Palestine" before 1948, with or without proof, is a "Palestinian", as well as all the descendants of that person. Indeed, the PLO leaders eagerly demand the "right" of all Palestinians to come back to the land that they occupied before June 1967 c.e., but utterly reject to return back to the land where they lived only 50 years before, namely, in 1917 c.e. Why? Because if they agree to do so, they have to settle back in Iraq, Syria, Arabia, Libya, Egypt... and only a handful Arabs would remain in Israel (by Israel is intended the whole Land between the Yarden River and the Mediterranean Sea, plus the Golan region). It is thoroughly documented that the first inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael after some centuries were the Jewish pioneers, and not the Arabs so-called Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:02 AM

Did you hear the one about the snipers who were waiting to assassinate Hitler?

No. Do tell. I liked the one about the Nazi newspaper.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM

Two Jewish snipers were on a rooftop waiting for Hitler to come by in his open car. He was supposed to pass by the building at precisely noon. They set up at 11:45 AM in case he was early, and they proceeded to wait. Noon came and no sign of him. 12:05 and still no sign. 12:06, 12:07, 12:08 . . . . Finally at 12:13, the spotter turned to the sniper and said, "Oy, I hope nothing's happened to him!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

"Why can't the Arab nations unite"? I am having real difficulty understanding the question or, I should say, why it is a real question anyone feels has a reasonable answer. One may as well ask, Why can't the European / western / eastern / African / Asian / Christian / Islamic / Buddhist / etc. etc. etc. nations unite. They don't unite because they live in the real world of split vested interests, misunderstandings, wilful mongering of many sorts, historical legacies that become mantras, etc, etc. In other words, they behave like human beings have always done. Welcome to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:04 PM

Well, Guest Ian P I think that was the gist of my point, (or the point of my gist, I'm not sure). Europe has gone a heck of the way toward unification, and has profited greatly thereby, but only after centuries of trying 'everything else'.

The Arabic / Muslim expansion starting from ACE 600 was an important event in human history, but my argument is it is still in process and is inherently 'younger' than the European one, which was set in motion by the Roman conquests of all or most of the barbarian tribes. The Romans gave the kick-start to European culture that the Arab world so desperately needs several hundred years before the birth of Mohammed.

Taking a somewhat remote view to that normally found here, it could be argued that the presence of a new group of Europeanized Jews in the midst of the Mid-East presented a powerful moment of potential cross-fertilization to the area, a small yet vital conglomeration of technological, social, and intellectual ferment, as receptive as it is aggressive. This could have brought a renewed development across the area, since numerically Israel has too few to present a threat to the Arab flavor and culture, just enough to add spice.

And in fact, I think more than anything else it is the force of reaction which has worked against Israel. Peoples such as the so-called Palestinians are displaced all the time. It is the powerful reacionary elements of the established and totalitarian Arab States and the reactionary anti-modernist sub-culture calling itself Islam that forces the Palestinians into their horrible situation, because it is a public and humiliating un-acceptance of Israel. The far better tactic for all would be the resettlement of the Palestinians into Jordan the full embrace of the Israeli state, which if anything would have absorbed the Jewish citizens into the far larger Arab/ Muslim entity much as the Chinese absorbed the Mongols.

At the same time that powerful religious sub-culture is capable of getting millions of human beings willing to sacrifice their lives to its imaginary ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:21 PM

That's it all right, Ian... ;-) Bloody obvious, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

"It is the powerful reacionary elements of the established and totalitarian Arab States and the reactionary anti-modernist sub-culture calling itself Islam *that forces the Palestinians into their horrible situation, because it is a public and humiliating un-acceptance of Israel.*" There's a grain of truth there, but that's a ***huge*** simplification. Now I'm no defender of antisemitism, which is an inherent part of much of middle eastern Islam. And it's also what made post-WWII Jews feel they needed to forge (that should be force) a homeland for themselves, as no one was significantly there to defend them against the final solution. But c'mon, one of the significant factors that forces the Palestinians into their horrible situation is the fact that the borders of Israel are never wide enough for the Israeli government and, guess what?, people already lived there and were forced out of their homes. As long as that happens and keeps happening, non-Israelis will not accept the state of Israel. In any event, Hesbulah say openly they will never accept the state of Israel, and the state of Israel says openly they want to destroy Hesbulah. What chance peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM

Forced out? Israel has about 1,250,000 Arabs livimg within her borders, guess the fucked up big time eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

Oh no Dave, the Israel haters mean before the country was established, when Jewish immigration forced out so many people from the land that became Israel, the non Jewish population doubled in a few decades...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM

Thanks Bunnahabhain I stand corrected LOL :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story202.html

Forced out. I personally know two older Palestinian men who lost orange orchards. We have to know what went on here. We can't keep repeating sanitized mythology. It was brutal and ugly. That doesn't permit or excuse terrorism..I have said frequently I would shoot the terrorists dead. But we have to know the history of all of this and it isn't pretty. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

No, it wasn't pretty. Some people lost out bigtime, and some are still losing out bigtime.

Both sides have their own mythology, and with the same purpose: to make themselves look innocent, and paint the other side as totally evil. Both sides will make excuses for their violent acts, and claim that the other side hurt them first. That's typical of such long-running disputes....it's always the "other guy" who's responsible for everything bad that happens, isn't it? (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM

There is no doubt that the Irgun forced some people from lands they occupied; the Israelis will try to point out that it was mostly done to people who supported the Arab Legion. Not that two wrongs make a right; but imagine being a survivor of the Holocaust and being attacked by well armed (By the British too) Arabs, who were known to have killed and murdered jews who had surrendered. To be surrounded by nations that were determined to destroy you, and you had no safe place to go.

One of my teachers served in the British army in Palestine, he did not care for either side having been shot at by both. He did mention that one thing he always regreted was disarming Jewish settlers, who were all subsequently killed within 24 hours of his unit leaving the area. As Golda Meir opined "the only time there will be peace between the jews and the arabs is when the arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us" The simple answer is to stop killing and hating. There is enough land for everyone and there are greater enemies to fight, Poverty, Ignorance, Hunger and Disease. With enough glory for all in the defeat of these.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:48 AM

BRAVO!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: jaze
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM

Can anyone explain to me why the Jews are hated so? This goes back several thousand years. What exactly did they do that was so terrible? I can't think of another race/religion that has been hated with such vehemence for so long. What did they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM

Because they are HUMAN???
Why can't the Irish, American Indians, Christians....
Your choice here..fill in the blank.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:23 PM

There is enough land for everyone

That's rather the problem, Dave - there *isn't*. Not if you're one of the many, many Palestinian farmers thrown off their land by Jewish settlers. If there was enough land for everyone, why don't the Israelis head off over there...?

This isn't driven by a hatred of the Jewish religion or people, Jaze. Rather, it's driven by a hatred of the actions of the Israeli government. "Jew" or "Jewish" is only used as a synonym for "Israeli" in the same way that "Communist" used to be used as a synonym for "Russian".

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM

I'm kinda holding off, waiting for Myles to step back in to the thread he initiated with a progress report. Meanwhile, Graham ol' bloke, let me tell ya a question:

Do you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them?

Let's unload it a bit. I'm not asking you to comment on the actual events of the past few weeks, just a simple concept. Does Israel have borders that can be recognized and that can by right of statehood be defended?

Yes or No with additional verbage as you will.
..in the kindest possible way...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:42 PM

Right on, Grab.

I would say, though, that there is always "enough land for everyone", provided that everyone is of goodwill. That, however, has never yet happened in the history of human affairs, has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

There are certain sayings that are very offensive to Palestinians, from what I have heard and read. One is about making the desert bloom. One is a land with no people for a people with no land. And the third is the one just quoted about Arabs learning to love their children. Be warned that these are offensive statements and choose whether to continue using them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM

mg:

You just used all three of 'em. I resent you trying to piss off those you call Palestinians.

I'd rather piss you off with logic and the facts.

But that's just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:51 PM

IMO, Myles should address this question to the Arab world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:01 PM

Why can't Americans unite? Why do they insist on dividing up into Republicans and Democrats and fighting over it all the time?

Why can't Canadians unite?

For that matter, why can't assholes unite? If you observe what goes on in traffic and in your local drinking establishments, you will notice that there is tremendous disunity among assholes.

All these questions are worth pondering, eh? (snort!)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:22 PM

Here's some nazal spray LH ... should remedy your sinus condition.

Now ... back to pondering what you just posted .... hmmmmmmm.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:24 PM

I just found out why assholes can't unite, if anyone's interested. The answer is much simpler than you may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:26 PM

I bypass any interest as to why Peace.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:27 PM

I think I'll go back and read the posts on Stoopid Sayings thread. They make more sense.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM

I don't think Dave is concerned about upsetting anyone who teaches their kids to murder and hate. He is obviously upset about kids being taught to hate and murder people as policy, and understands the statement for what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM

Guest mg is that a veiled threat to me personally? I use quotes to illustrate my points, if someone is offended by that, I don't really care.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:41 AM

Because they are arrogant assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM

See for yourselves I make no comment on this:

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM

'"We ask that the countries stand by our side. We want them to help us. We only want them to give us weapons. We on our own - young boys and girls, will kill them on our own. Murder them, shoot all of them. Just give us weapons, the boys and the girls themselves; we will kill them all. We won't leave a single Jew. We won't leave a single Jew here."
[PA TV, October 22, 2000]'

What's to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:34 PM

Alas, the dead are all united. It's the living of all nations that cannot unite--for obvious reasons.

The communists and the capitalists had it right. It was called "peaceful coexistence"----live and let live but carry a big stick. Things were tense, but it worked. Without them pushing on each other, everyone falls down. The sucking sound you hear is the vacuum. This chaos, that we are doing to each other, is a struggle to fill the void. If you are lucky, you'll be able to stay below the radar.

Love to all,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:59 PM

"It was called "peaceful coexistence"----live and let live but carry a big stick. Things were tense, but it worked."

... yup they were tense alright ... Vietnam, Korea, Hungary, China (communist overthrow in case no one remembers) ... what was the death count of these four peaceful coexistance conflicts between the capitalists and the communists.

The following song that needs no introduction (but has been forgotten) was from back 'then'

The eastern world, it is exploding
Violence flarin', bullets loadin'
You're old enough to kill, but not for votin'
You don't believe in war, but what's that gun you're totin'
And even the Jordan River has bodies floatin'

But you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don't believe
We're on the eve
of destruction.

Don't you understand what I'm tryin' to say
Can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today?
If the button is pushed, there's no runnin' away
There'll be no one to save, with the world in a grave
[Take a look around ya boy, it's bound to scare ya boy]

And you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don't believe
We're on the eve
of destruction.

Yeah, my blood's so mad feels like coagulatin'
I'm sitting here just contemplatin'
I can't twist the truth, it knows no regulation.
Handful of senators don't pass legislation
And marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin'
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'

And you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don't believe
We're on the eve
of destruction.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:11 AM

You're right too, of course. Every coin hs two sides. Yin and yang. The paradox thing, all over again. But no nukes is good news--for several years--since 1945--at least.

To Unite is an ideal. It's to shoot for--certainly. Still, any day without a nuclear exchange is a good day!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:43 AM

The latest offensive by Israel is doing a pretty good job of uniting Arab nations. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, afghanistan, Jordan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are all calling for a ceasefire and Israel continues to ignore them. It seems they are united in their condemnation of Israeli aggression.

Its time for Israel to stop playing the victim and start taking some responsibility for their own behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:47 AM

"Still, any day without a nuclear exchange is a good day!" ... you can't deny that Art!

But some of those nukes are still around ........ somewhere.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM

Dianavan insults all Iranians by referring to us as Arabs. We are Persians. I suppose in her ignorance, she assumes that all Middle Eastern people are Arabs (except, for the Jews, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: jaze
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:30 AM

Are Arabs only those from Saudi Arabia? Another question I've wondered about-what were Muslims before Muhammed?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM

pagans.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

The media should learn to differentiate between non combatants and civilian's. The vast majority of the deaths can be directly attributed to the fact that the rocket launchers are being manned by non uniformed members of a terrorist organization that breaks the rules by using civilians as shields and ambulances as ammunition and troop tansports. Remove a rifle away from a childs body and then photograph it at as a civilian casualty is another trick that works well. This is not my interpretation but UN observed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:04 AM

Arabs are one ethnos of a related group, the Semites, including Arabs, Palestinians, Jews, and Phoenicians (and Carthaginians), Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldaeans etc. They are grouped together because of similarities of language, ancient religion and ancient culture, and DNA studies have largely confirmed their common ancestry. The Phoenicians and other ancient kingdoms have been absorbed by other surrounding cultures in the last 2500 years, and the others have undergone many changes.

The biggest change involved the Jews, who, already dispersed as a trading culture before the Roman occupation, were scattered thoroughly afterwards and different groups (Ashkenazy, Sephardi, Falashas and several others) developed independently. Their cultural character and group mythology has been much influenced by the persistent persecution that they have suffered since, but which also helped to conserve their cultural identity against absorption into the surrounding communities.

The Arabs of Arabia delevoped Islam. Prior to Mohammed, Islam simply didn't exist, and the peoples of Arabia were Animist, with communities of Christians and Jews. Mohammed was inspired by Jewish and Christian teaching and had the advantage of seeing them in action. The Moslem expansion of the 7th Century gave them control and influence over much of North Africa and the Middle East, and the Arab culture mixed with and influenced many others in that area, including non-Jewish Semites, Berbers, Bedouin etc.

They also conquered or otherwise influenced many other non- related peoples- Persians, Kurds, Vandals and other Europeans who had settled in Africa and Spain, Tartars, Mongols, Turks, Indians of various ethnic origins, Malays, Indonesians etc.

Does that help?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

Before Islam .... they were pagans ... the Black Stone (the cornerstones of the Kaaba) and the crescent moon are derived from pre-Islam.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:14 AM

There was a book out about twenty years ago (western author) naming individuals he felt most influential in human history. He put Mohammed at the top.

Regarding Muslims prior to Mohammed. Mr. Burke's well written chronology is correct, but I'd add there is a component to Islam itself which 'adjusts' perceived inaccuracies in the existing scriptures. Therefore Abraham (Ibraham) becomes the first Muslim, God (Allah) didn't need to 'rest' on the seventh day, Jesus (Issa) while a holy man was not divine in nature, etc. In other words, the Torah, once amended, becomes an Islamic 'prequel'.

This is not that odd. Mormons have a practise of 'baptizing' (There's prob'ly a better Mormon term I'm not aware of) into the faith their ancestors and great figures in history. There was a newspaper story that there was a Mormon project to 'baptize' into the faith victims of the Holocaust.

Early Christians had the task of rectifying New Testament theology "None gets to the Father save through the Son" with Christian prehistory. I think that's how the theory of limbo got devised.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

Sorry for the insult, GUEST.

I know that most Iranians are Persians but you have to admit that there are alot of Arabs in Persia and that most Persians have adopted Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:02 PM

Dianavan,

I don't need to admit anything to justify your insulting racism.

Your clarification that I have to admit there are a lot of Arabs in Persia (by which I assume you mean Iran) is nonsense. Arabs represent 3% of the Iranian population. By contrast Arabs represent 20% of Israel's population.

Yes, of course most Persians are Moslems. That's nothing new. It goes back centuries. Iran is an Islamic Republic. The supreme law of Iran is the Koran.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:13 PM

However the ancestral religion of Persia is Zoroastrianism, one of the oldest continuing faiths in practise. Islam was 'brought' to Persia much much later.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM

The Bahai faith, an offshoot from Islam, also originated in Persia in the 1800's as far as I recall, and it is now a world religion, albeit one of the smaller ones. Unlike Islam, Christianity or Judaism, the Bahai accepts ALL world religions as 100% legitimate expressions of faith, it incorporates all their holy books in its teaching, and it honours all their prophets.

That is very wise on the part of the Bahais. Were others to show an equal degree of wisdom, there would be no more religious wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Abe
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

They should get together and stand up to the warmongering bully artificial state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:43 PM

The Ba'hais have been relentlessly persecuted in their State of origin, modern day run-by-the-fundamentalists Iran, since the tyrant Khomeini.

On the other hand, they have important shrines and full religious rights in the nation of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:50 PM

That's true. The Bahais tend to be peaceful people, and they are no threat to either the Israelis or the Iranian regime. The Israelis, being at heart pragmatists, recognize that, and accordingly they leave the Bahais alone. This does not mean that the Israelis, however, leave other people alone when there are strategic gains to be made. Hardly.

If your point is that Israel is somewhat more liberal and less authoritarian a society than Iran, I agree, it is. I still don't agree with Israel's aggressive policies in the Middle East, nor with their totally out of proportion response to the kidnapping of two soldiers (and that's just an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway).

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

GUEST - It was the Arabs who brought Islam to Persia. Since I fully understand the Persians do not like Arabs and consider them a separate race, it is you, not I, who can be accused of racism.

"Iran today has wide variety of ethnic groups one of which is Persian. The contemporary 'Persian', as an ethnic group, in Iran mostly refers to those whose native language is the language of the capital city named Tehran. Such ethnic groups like Kurd, Turk, Turkman, Balouch, Gilak, Mazan, even Arab and others who are originally from Iran are also Iranian. However, not all of them are Persian." From:

http://www.easypersian.com/

Furthermore, when the Arabs invaded Persia, they not only brought their faith but also their language. I know that Persian is the official language but...

Whats the matter, GUEST, do you want distance yourself from Arabs because they might have a little too much African blood for your taste? I suppose you like to think of yourself as pure Aryan.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Tony Oakville
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

It was so sad to see those poor children in hospital beds tonight on the news killed and injured by a crowd of clowns wearing dessert bowls on their heads who moan and cry about what some guy did to them 60 odd years ago. Now Bush tells Blair he wants to slip a few more missiles over to the dessert bowls through Scotland and to turn a blind eye to it. Then to watch Bush sending Popeyes girlfriend Olive Oil over to Rome to give his blessing to the mass murder so that the Jew bankers in the States don't get annoyed. Result we lost one of our countrymen in an attack on the UN observation post. The world now sees the injustice and support for the removal of anyone wearing a dessert bowl on their head from stolen land is growing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:26 PM

Dear Tony Assville: Please tell me you aren't Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:42 PM

There are bigoted assholes in Canada too Peace (as if I have to tell you).

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:00 PM

Little Hawk they killed 8 and captured 2 and the old saying if you poke at a grizzly bear with a sharp stick don't be surprised and upset when it bites yer f'ing head off can be applied here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:06 PM

Hey, bobad. Heck, I know there are people like that in Canada. However, his/her use of English is dreadful.

"The world now sees the injustice and support for the removal of anyone wearing a dessert bowl on their head from stolen land is growing."

Jaysus, it would be between 'damned difficult and nearly impossible' to construct a sentence like that on purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:10 PM

Yer right about that Peace, besides, eveyone knows Popeye's girlfriend's name is Olive Oyl.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:17 PM

Yes, I know they killed 8...in a border skirmish that is one of thousands of incidents in a war that's been waged, off and on, since 1948. The killing of 8 soldiers and the capturing of 2 is no fit justification for the kind of massive operation the Israelis are engaged in right now in Lebanon.

The Israelis are holding thousands of prisoners, and they feel free to kill their enemies anywhere and at any time...using high tech weapons. How does this make them better than the people who kill a few of them?

The killing of 8 soldiers and the capturing of 2 affects, say, 10 or 20 families directly. What Israel is doing affects millions directly. That's why it's out of proportion to the supposed excuse that is used to justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:26 PM

what about the 14,000 missiles (sharp sticks) mostly supplied by Iran and Syria stored in Southern Lebanon?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM

14,000 missiles are an excellent idea when one is fighting someone with total air superiority and armed dominance on land and at sea. Those missiles constitute a feasible means of returning fire, and anyone in a war wants that, don't they? Israel has jets, artillery, tanks, and a navy. Why would you begrudge their opponents the use of missiles? Or is attacking people suddenly and by surprise, with lethal intent, only allowed and approved of if the targets are NOT Israelis (or Americans)?

Well, if you're pushing a certain self-serving propaganda line...yeah! Heh. That's exactly how propaganda works.

"You see, we're good, but they're evil. When we attack them, it's legitimate defence. When they attack us, it's terrorism."

That is the standard propaganda line of America and Israel...and of most of their opponents too!

Whole lotta hypocrisy goin' on out there...

It's a war, guys. In a war, everybody uses whatever weapons they are capable of arming themselves with. That's how it works. I'm sure that if Hezbollah had the means to meet Israel on equal terms, they would. As it is, they must use small arms and missiles. And they will, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM

"The killing of 8 soldiers and the capturing of 2 is no fit justification for the kind of massive operation the Israelis are engaged in right now in Lebanon."

You ever sit beside a kid in school who keeps poking you with a pencil? And he does that day after day? Then ya get tired of it, grab him by the throat and punch his fu#kin' lights out?

The Israelis are in the same position.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:52 PM

"Israel has jets, artillery, tanks, and a navy. Why would you begrudge their opponents the use of missiles?"

The Israelis have the weaponry they do for good reason: survival. And no one 'begrudges' Hezbollah the rockets. They have 'em and the Israelis are doing what is in their power to ensure that those rockets are NOT used againt Israeli citizens. They are going to do everything they can to destroy the Hezbollah leadership and materiel before the cease fire is brought about. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

And so are the people they are fighting, Peace. You would just have to be a kid on the other side of the borderline to appreciate that.

There is no one there whose friends and families have not been hurt in this conflict. When people are hurt, as you pointed out, they eventually hit back. That is why some people fire rockets at Israel. I'm suggesting that Israel has hit back in a disproportionate manner this time, that they are overdoing it. I think a few million people in Lebanon think so too. Will this operation make the future more secure for Israel?

I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: jaze
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

Paul Burke--thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:09 PM

Well, Peace, Hezbollah are obviously going to do everything they can to survive too, aren't they? Everyone uses his weapons for survival as well as for attack. And the people in the Shiite neighbourhoods in Lebanon will support them, because they have helped those people in many ways when no one else would.

You can't divide this thing up into a set of "good guys" on one side, and a set of "bad guys" on the other...but that is what everyone wants to do. It saves actually thinking of the other guy as human, and that makes it easier to justify killing him.

Capiche?

The Israelis are not knights in shining armour who have committed no offence upon their neighbours. They are not flawless martyrs, above reproach. Neither are Hezbollah. Neither is America. Neither are the Iranians.

A reasonable solution will respect the needs and rights of all involved parties, not be dictated by some self-appointed "moral majority" in Tel Aviv or Washington...or Tehran or Damascus.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

"the kidnapping of two soldiers (and that's just an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway)."

LH ... did ya ever maybe think the Hezbellah (in conjunction with Iran) contrived this to goat the Israeli's in to a total war ... just another idea from the other side of the picture.

"14,000 missiles are an excellent idea when one is fighting someone with total air superiority and armed dominance on land and at sea."

LH .. yup, a lota missiles loaded with ball bearings for maximun destruction ... ever wonder why Israel built up such a strong IDF (Israel Defence Force). A strong IDF, a good idea when you are completly surrounded by people who want to destroy you

Maybe Israel is rapidly trying to push back the Hezbollah forces knowing that the Hezbellah is currently moving rockets with a farther range that can reach Tel Aviv ... remember were these rockets are coming from .... remember the mandate of Iran and the Hezbellah in regards to Israel.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:14 PM

That is true. But your anger seems to be reserved for Israel. Save a little for Hezbollah and Hamas too. Capiche!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:16 PM

LH:
WE've been here before. you have your own definition of what constitutes war which doesn't agree with Webster. You also broad brush the combatants here and tend to view all participants as morally equivalent. Most of us are not working off the same basic definitions as you are.

I think it is possible to come up with 'good' guys and 'bad' guys, without requiring the 'good' guys to be 'perfect' guys. I don't know anyone but some of the terrorist sympathizers who think their side is perfect.

What you consistently fail to come up with when you apply your broad brush is what a country enduring constant terror attacks can do other than what Israel is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM

They're all between a rock and a hard place. Israel is. The Lebanese are. Hezbollah is. Hamas is. Iraq is. Iran is.

Matter of fact, the only nation that isn't between a rock and a hard place in truth is the USA. The USA could act as an honest broker in this dispute and get both sides to negotiate...if it had any intention of really doing so...but the USA has consistently treated Israel as "a good guy" and Israel's opponents as monsters, to all intents and purposes.

And that, in a nutshell, is why my anger is mainly reserved for Israel.

I don't like to see a blatantly stacked deck, and I will always instinctively back the weak against the strong, and I will oppose a common prejudice that is taken for granted by most people. That is my nature. Israel and the USA are the strong in this conflict. Those they beat up on with their jets and their high tech weapons are the weak.

And that's why I react the way I do.

Both sides have legitimate concerns, but the side that really angers me is the one that has overwhelming firepower, that can attack and invade anyone it wants to any time it wants to...but acts as "the injured party". That disgusts me. It reminds me of the Nazis. I can't stand bullies.

I also live in a society where people hardly dare to criticize Zionism, for fear of being labelled anti-semitic, but anyone can criticize Arabs without fear, because Arabs are clearly thought of as less than equal, whether or not anyone says it openly.

That's blatant discrimination, it's exactly the same thing AS anti-semitism, but it doesn't merit a special word all its own in the culture, does it? You know why? Because the deck is stacked.

I can't stand that sort of prejudice.

35 years ago I had no ax to grind in this matter. That changed. I don't like a stacked deck, and our media have long stacked the deck when it comes to any dispute between the Muslims and Israel. The Israelis are treated like "us" by the media...the Muslims are treated like "them". I know discrimination when I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:04 PM

Thank you. I am glad you do reserve some anger for Hezbollah and Hamas. I have a bit for Israel now, also.

I think Israel should have unilaterally ceased fire--for three days. Hezbollah would likely not have. At that point, Israel could tell the apologists to take a hike and go after their targets with a vengeance. Hard as it is to believe, they are not trying to kill civilians. And hard as it is TO believe, Hezbollah and Hamas are.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

A ceasefire sounds like about the best idea I've heard so far.

I don't know whether the USA and Israel are trying to kill civilians or not, but they certainly are killing them, and they're killing more a lot more civilians than Hamas or Hezbollah have.

Modern war does kill civilians. It's been that way ever since the Fascists bombed Guernica...basically ever since the airplane (and its successor, the missile) became capable of bombing cities. The first really effective mass killings of civilians by bombing in fact were, I believe, accomplished by the British and Italians in their colonial wars in Iran and Africa, respectively. Those occurred not long after the First World War.

The nature of modern weapons ensures that many civilians will die, usually many more civilians than armed soldiers. Whether or not Israel wants to kill Lebanese civilians, they will, using the methods they're using.

Yes, Hamas and Hezbollah want to kill Israeli civilians. I know that, and I don't approve of it. Their capacity to do so, however, is quite limited. Israel and America's capacity to ruin an entire nation has been amply demonstrated in recent times in Lebanon and Iraq, and that kills a lot more civilians in the end than the "terrorists" do.

So who is worse? Or who is better? I don't know. I do know who is more lethal. That's been proven a thousand times over by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

"I do know who is more lethal. That's been proven a thousand times over by now."

And that is the reason why the nation still exists today because if it were the other way around they would have been wiped off the map a long time ago. You do, of course accept their right to exist, do you not?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

"I also live in a society where people hardly dare to criticize Zionism, for fear of being labelled anti-semitic, but anyone can criticize Arabs without fear, because Arabs are clearly thought of as less than equal, whether or not anyone says it openly."

I live in the same society LH ... I have yet to hear this society critize Arabs, sure it has it's faults but tolerance and repect is applied to all.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

I felt the same way about both sides; but what changed my mind is seeing children indoctrinated into commiting murder and suicide. I have a great deal of sympathy for displaced people, and would like nothing more than to see a lasting peace between Israel and the Arabic nations. I am glad to see some Muslims are supporting the peace process, and renouncing the practise of brainwashing children into violence. The fact remains that the majority are not, and the violence gets worse no matter what Israel does.

The media reports are distorted and sensationalise the violence. Making statements that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians is false. Many civilians caught in this war, especially children are being used as shields by terrorists. Those terrorists are fighting without wearing uniforms, and so when killed, the removal of their weapons prior to being photographed is a tactic deliberately used to distort the truth. If you store weapons and explosives under and in civilian houses those houses and civilians are no longer considered non combatants.

Sadly the violence continues and innocent lives are lost and munitions go astray from both sides. There is no easy solution, no fair solution, only the desire to stop killing each other and build on a lasting peace will solve this war. I am not an optimist and fear that there can never be situation where peace can prevail between all the nations of the middle east. I hope I am wrong, I pray I am wrong, but experience tells me the extremists will not be content until war consumes us all. This will be my last post for some time, goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:47 PM

Oh ... by the way LH ... get zionists out of the equation ... Israel is a nation (whether you like it or not) ..... our 'society' (meaning Canada) does not incite fear into it's people in regards to tolerance .. it is by understanding, and respect of all races, creed, religion.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:30 PM

Of course I accept Israel's right to exist, bobad. Why would you possibly imagine I don't?

That is one of the truly annoying things about Israel's faithful supporters. They seem imagine that if someone disapproves of an Israeli attack or expansion of the lands it's holding...then that someone MUST, by definition, be a person who wants to see all Israelis (and Jews?) wiped out and the nation of Israel wiped off the map!

What presumption! Wouldn't it be convenient if everyone who disagreed with you was a genocidal monster?

Sorry. I fully support Israel's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:51 PM

There is fear in this society, number 6.

People are afraid to name a wrong when it is committed by individuals belonging to certain special groups, and all those groups share one thing in common: they are all groups who have been very notably oppressed in our shared cultural past.

Women. Blacks. Native Americans. Jews.

These are all groups which I enthusiastically supported in my youth, hoping to see the day when they would achieve full equality.

I have not seen it.

What I have seen instead is a weird situation where the black community, though still suffering from many disadvantages in this society, has embraced in some cases an even more virulent form of prejudice than that practiced against them...where they can "pull the race card" and scream "racism!" in legal cases where it has nothing to do with the issue. Remember the O.J. Simpson trial? What a travesty that was.

What I have seen is a Jewish community so obsessed with its past victimhood that it feels totally justified now in victimizing others and terrorizing or vilifying anyone who calls that wrong.

What I have seen is some women with such a chip on their shoulders against men that they cannot see any situation involving a man impartially.

What I have seen is Native Americans who are more virulently prejudiced against whites than most whites are against them, and it's a terrible shame! I spent 30 years among Native Americans, attending powwows, going in the sweat lodges, practicing the Medicine Way, the whole bit...for my own personal reasons, which were entirely instinctive. I loved them just for who they were. I believed in the old ideals. But what I saw! The arrogance. The tacit assumptions of "victimhood" and the negative, crummy behaviour that arose out of that. The gossip and infighting amongst themselves. The presumptions of innate moral superiority over all who were not Native. The complete violation of the ideals of equality upon which are based true human brotherhood.

I saw the world of my young ideals turned upsidedown by people who had not the grace to rise above their tragic past, not the wisdom to find common ground with other people, not the humility to live and let live, not the vision to see beyond their group identity, and to judge the book by its contents, NOT its cover!

It's a bloody disgrace. The people I fought for in my youth have mostly fallen into the same kind of gross prejudice that their parents were trying to end!

That's what happens when you spend your whole life thinking "I'm a victim, they're all out to get me, but I'm going to get them instead. They'll be sorry!"

Yeah, I've seen it. And I know exactly what it is. It's the same twisted dark stuff that Hitler used to get the Nazis started in Germany.

Like the Who said, "I'm gonna get on my knees and pray...I don't get fooled again!"

When will the once oppressed have the decency not to become the new oppressors? That's what I want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

James Madison

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:56 AM

LH:

I may disagree with some of your points, but I admire your writing. I think there is plenty of open criticism of Israel, its people, its conduct. I don't sense a fear of criticizing Jews. I've seen plenty of criticism and disagreement about and with Jewish people and subjects. Most of it, in my experience, comes from Jews but it certainly ain't limited to 'em. About eight years ago a non-Jewish young woman wrote and had performed in my town a play about the Holocaust. She received some criticism and a lot of defense over it. I think we're beginning to see more of this on other supposedly PC-reserved subjects. And you have made free with your opinions, and I certainly react most strongly as I think you'd agree but I respect not condemn you, (except once about Shatner).

Anyhow, I think the image of Israel as bully is very much arranged and hyped. The truth is there are powerful forces arrayed against Israel by countries with essentially limitless resources. And they get their money from the USA, orders of magnitude more than Israel. These are huge social, economic, cultural, and financial sources. They are powerful enough to settle every one of the residents of Gaza and non-native residents of Jordan (itself a Palestinian State). But they choose to maintain the impoverished and miserable residents in place as an ever present wedge issue. They choose to fortify, arm, and defend many terror groups.

Israel is at present a 'local maximum' as far as conventional arms go. But the situation is fluid. The US is a sort of major maximum, but in reality conducting a balancing act which cannot last. In any case I don't believe in an Israel that is dependent on the Us for existence. That is a doomed scenario.

What will work is a stringent policy toward the terrorists. They cannot be allowed to find even a single winning strategy. They and the people they live among must be convinced that there is no violent way they will win out. They have been trying such a way. It involves violence and publicity. Many of the posters here are guests from outside who are aligned with that policy. They don't answer straight questions and constantly winge on about their chosen victims, whether or not the reports are verified.

Don't you see if the Israelis were Nazis now or ever: THERE WOULD BE NO PALESTINIAN PROBLEM!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

Your points about some of the other countries the USA backs (specially Saudi Arabia...and Egypt?) are well taken, robomatic, and I agree those countries are cynically using the Palestinians instead of helping them...as they could if they so decided.

I wouldn't say that the Israelis ARE like Nazis in every sense...obviously they are not as extreme. I'd say, though, that any group which becomes extremely militant about its own cultural identity to the point where it is pitted in an endless battle against other cultural groups is in danger of becoming Nazi-like as time goes by. That's a problem that could affect both the Zionists and their most determined enemies such as Iran, Syria, Hamas, the Saudis, Hezbollah...

It's dangerous when you base your activites around a clash of cultures. It doesn't generally produce much reason, just a lot of heat.

Anyway, you made a lot of good points there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:55 AM

I truly appreciate the tone of the last couple of posts.

Robo, I totally agree when you say, "In any case I don't believe in an Israel that is dependent on the Us for existence. That is a doomed scenario."

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM

LH .... It wasn't arrragance that you saw in the The First Nations people, it was people who showed a cold shoulder directly to you. They couldn't take any more of your dogmatic rants anymore.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: cockney
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:38 AM

Isn't "Israel" the arab's land anyway?
Was it not stolen from them to create a state for Jews mainly the USA and Europe?

This gave the US a foothole in oil-land hey?

Why don't they give the land back to the arabs, then either live there in peace with the arabs in charge, or go back to the USA or wherever!

Could it be that no one wants them back?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:54 AM

Where is the homeland for the Jews? Where did they originate?

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1625

The Meaning of Homeland

The Zionist Imperative

The Jews' right to the land of Israel is comparable to that of a 'drowning man to grasp the only plank that can save him.' Because of our historical connection to it, this is the only land to which the Jews would have come to establish a homeland, but the land is not 'holy.' However, this is also the Palestinians' homeland, and that makes for a tragic clash of rights.

To Be a Jew

The land of the Jews could not have come into being and could not have existed anywhere but here. Not in Uganda, not in Ararat, and not in Birobidzhan. Because this is the place the Jews have always looked to throughout their history. Because there is no other territory to which the Jews would have come in their masses to establish a Jewish homeland. On this point I commit myself to a severe, remorseless distinction between the inner motives of the return to Zion and its justification to others. The age-old longings are a motive, but not a justification. Political Zionism has made political, national use of religious, messianic yearning, and rightly so. But our justification vis-a-vis the Arab inhabitants of the country cannot be based on our age-old longings. What are our longings to them? The Zionist enterprise has no other objective justification than the right of a drowning man to grasp the only plank that can save him. And that is justification enough. (Here I must anticipate something I shall return to later: There is a vast moral difference between the drowning man who grasps a plank and makes room for himself by pushing the others who are sitting on it to one side, even by force, and the drowning man who grabs the whole plank for himself and pushes the others into the sea. This is the moral argument that lies behind our repeated agreement in principle to the partition of the land. This is the difference between making Jaffa and Nazareth Jewish, and making Ramallah and Nablus Jewish.)

I cannot use such words as 'the promised land' or 'the promised borders.' Happy are those who believe, for theirs is the Land. Why should they trouble themselves with questions of morality or rights of others? (Although perhaps those who believe in the promise ought to wait humbly for the Author of the promises to decide when the right moment has come for Him to keep it.) Happy are those who believe. Their Zionism is simple and carefree. Mine is hard and complicated. I also have no use for the hypocrites who suddenly remember the divine promise whenever their Zionism runs into an obstacle or an inner contradiction (and go charging off in their cars with their wives and children every Sabbath to cherish the dust of the holy places.) In a nutshell, I am a Zionist in all that concerns the redemption of the Jews, but not when it comes to the 'redemption of the holy land.' We have come here to live as a free nation, not 'to liberate the land that groans under the desecration of a foreign yoke,' Samaria, Gilead, Aram, and Hauran up to the great Euphrates River. The word 'liberation' applies to people, not to dust and stone. I was not born to blow rams' horns or 'purge a heritage that has been defiled by strangers.'

Why here of all places? Because here and only here is where the Jews were capable of coming and establishing their independence. Because the establishment of the political independence of the Jews could not have come about in any other territory. Because here was the focus of their prayers and their longings.

To tell the truth, those longings were organically linked with the belief in the promise and the Promiser, the Redeemer, and the Messiah. Is there a contradiction here? As I have already said, religious feelings helped a secular, political movement to achieve an aim that was historical, not miraculous or messianic. The ancient yearning for the land of Israel was part of a total faith in the coming of the Redeemer. Faith, side by side with a common destiny, maintained the continuing unity of the Jewish people. But let us not forget, or allow others to forget, that it was not God or the Messiah or a miracle or an angel that achieved the independence of the Jews in their own land, but a secular, political movement with a modern ideology and modern tactics. Therefore, the Zionism of a secularist may contain a structural fault. I do not intend to gloss over this fault with phrases and slogans. I accept this contradiction, if such it be, and I say: here I stand. In our social life, in love, in our attitude to others and to death, we the non-religious are condemned to live with inconsistencies and faults. And that goes for Zionism too.

Consequently, my Zionism may not be 'whole'. For instance, I see nothing wrong with mixed marriage or with conversion, if it is successful. Only those Jews who choose to be Jews or who are compelled to be Jews belong, in my view, to this tribe. For them, and only for them, the State of Israel is a present possibility. I would like to make it an attractive and fascinating possibility.

I do not regard myself as a Jew by virtue of 'race' or as a 'Hebrew' because I was born in the land of Canaan. I choose to be a Jew, that is, to participate in the collective experience of my ancestors and fellow Jews down the ages. Albeit a selective participation: I do not approve of everything they approved of, nor am I prepared to continue obediently living the kind of life that they live. As a Jew, I do not want to live among strangers who see in me some kind of symbol or stereotype, but in a State of Jews. Such a State could only have come into being in the land of Israel. That is as far as my Zionism goes...

Right Against Right

As I see it, the confrontation between the Jews returning to Zion and the Arab inhabitants of the country is not like a western or an epic, but more like a Greek tragedy. It is a clash between right and right (although one must not seek a simplistic symmetry in it). And, as in all tragedies, there is no hope of a happy reconciliation based on a clever magical formula. The choice is between a blood bath and a disappointing compromise, more like enforced acceptance than a sudden breakthrough of mutual understanding.

True, the dispute is not 'symmetrical.' There is no symmetry between the constant, eager attempts of Zionism to establish a dialogue with the local Arabs and those of the neighboring states, and the bitter and consistent hostility the Arabs, with all their different political regimes, have for decades shown us in return.

But it is a gross mistake, a common oversimplification, to believe that the dispute is based on a misunderstanding. It is based on full and complete understanding: We have repeatedly offered the Arabs goodwill, good neighborliness, and cooperation, but that was not what they wanted from us. They wanted us, according to the most moderate Arab formulation, to abandon the idea of establishing a free Jewish State in the land of Israel, and that is a concession we can never make.

It is the height of naivete to believe that but for the intrigues of outsiders and the backwardness of fanatical regimes, the Arabs would realize the positive side of the Zionist enterprise and straightaway fall on our necks in brotherly love.

The Arabs did not oppose Zionism because they failed to understand it, but because they understood it only too well. And that is the tragedy: The mutual understanding does exist. We want to exist as a nation, as a State of Jews. They do not want that State. This cannot be glossed over with high-sounding phrases, neither the noble aspirations to brotherliness of well-meaning Jews, nor the clever Arab tactics of 'We will be content, at this stage, with the return of all refugees to their previous place of residence.' Any search for a way out must start from a fundamental change of position preceded by the open-eyed realization of the full extent of the struggle: a tragic conflict, tragic anguish.

We are here because this is the only place where we can exist as a free nation. The Arabs are here because Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinians, just as Iraq is the homeland of the Iraqis and Holland is the homeland of the Dutch. The question of what cultural assets the Palestinians have created here or what care they have taken of the landscape or the agriculture is of not relevance to the need to discuss their right to their homeland. Needless to say, the Palestinian owes no deference to God's promises to Abraham, to the longings of Yehuda HaLevi and Bialik, or to the achievements of the early Zionist pioneers.

Current talk about pushing Palestinian masses back to oil-rich Kuwait or fertile Iraq makes no more sense than would talking about our own mass emigration to 'Jewish' Brooklyn. Knaves and fools in both camps might add: 'After all, they'll be among their brothers there.' But just as I am entitled to see myself as an Israeli Jew, not a Brooklyner or a Golders Greener, so a Palestinian Arab is entitled to regard himself as a Palestinian, not an Iraqi or a Kuwaiti. The fact that only an enlightened minority of Palestinians seems to see it that way at the moment cannot prejudice the national right to self-determination when the time comes. Let us remember ' with all the reservations the comparison requires ' that it was only a Zionist-minded minority of Jews that ' justly! ' claimed the right to establish a Hebrew State here in the name of the entire Jewish people for the benefit of the Jews who would one day come to a national consciousness.

This land is our land. It is also their land. Right conflicts with right. 'To be a free people in our own land' is a right that is valid either universally or not at all.

As for the war between Israel and the neighboring Arab states, it is an indirect outcome of the confrontation between us and the Palestinians. Of course I am not going to explain everything away in terms of 'devotion' or 'brotherliness' on the part of the neighboring states. I only want to emphasize that the strife that has developed in the land of Israel must be resolved here, between us and the Palestinian people. There is nothing tragic in our relations with Cairo, Baghdad, or Damascus. The war they are waging against us is basically a war of aggressors against victims of aggression, even though our neighbors are armed, as usual, with self-righteous rhetoric. The Arab-Jewish tragedy does not extend, therefore, to the whole Middle East, as the Arab states claim, but is confined to this land, between the sea and the desert...

Between Two Possibilities of Zionism

I believe in a Zionism that faces facts, that exercises power with restraint, that sees the Jewish past as a lesson, but neither as a mystical imperative nor as an insidious nightmare; that sees the Palestinian Arabs as Palestinians Arabs, and neither as the camouflaged reincarnation of the ancient tribes of Canaan nor as a shapeless mass of humanity waiting for us to form it was we see fit: a Zionism also capable of seeing itself as others may see it; and finally, a Zionism that recognizes both the spiritual implications and the political consequences of the fact that this small tract of land is the homeland of two peoples fated to live facing each other, willy-nilly, because no God and no angel will come to judge between right and right. The lives of both, the lives of all of us, depend on the hard, tortuous, and essential process of learning to know each other in the curious landscape of the beloved country.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:56 AM

What a load of bollocks!

The land belongs to the arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM

Joe/ clones, could you please delete the Nazi crap from this GUEST. In fact, I wouldn't be sorry if you deleted this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Bird Flu
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

Why is it Nazi to say anything against the jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:44 AM

You're entirely wrong in your assumption, Number 6. When you said:

"LH .... It wasn't arrragance that you saw in the The First Nations people, it was people who showed a cold shoulder directly to you. They couldn't take any more of your dogmatic rants anymore."

You weren't there. I did not get "the cold shoulder". I got along very well with most of the Shoshones, Cherokees, Chippewas, and other Native people I spent time among, because I was part of the group. I was totally respectful at all times, totally cooperative, and accordingly I got along well with them. I was pretty shy in those days, certainly not so outspoken as I am on this forum. I just sang songs a lot, and people liked that. This was mostly in the 70's, the 80's, and the early 90's. I do not recall getting the cold shoulder from any Native people at all, except for one crabby individual who ran a mocassin and craft shop in Toronto, and I think he must have been having a bad day (anyway, he didn't know me at all. He'd only just met me).

No, my friend, what I observed was the way outsiders and newcomers were treated by the Native groups I was among. What I noticed was certain assumptions that underlay the "attitude". I noticed the tendency in people to assume an attitude of martyrdom, and to look for offence (from outsiders or from the main body of society) where offence was neither given nor intended. I noticed the tendency to assume that those in our little group were innately morally superior to the whole rest of society. (and I remember that same arrogance in young "hippies" as a matter of fact...toward "straights")

I saw so much gossiping, backstabbing, and infighting among the Native leadership that it sapped the energies of people and destroyed the effectiveness of community.

The Medicine person I was around the most was Rolling Thunder...an unusual fellow. He claimed to be Cherokee. Some of his detractors have said he wasn't Native at all. (smile) Well, I think he probably was part Native all right, but I'm not in a position to say...his wife was full-blood Shoshone. Rolling Thunder complimented me more than once for "making no trouble". He said I was the only white person who had ever come to his camp and caused absolutely no trouble whatsoever. He definitely liked me.

And that's a fact.

So your theory doesn't wash.

Do you deny that formerly oppressed people can become arrogant about themselves once radicalized by popular political slogans? Have you ever noticed the attitude of black rappers lately and that whole "gangsta" schtick they have going? What could be more antisocial than that? That's what happens when people grow up with a chip on their shoulders and blame the whole larger society for everything that goes wrong in their lives, through their own bad decisions and behaviour. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM

By the way, that lengthy essay on Zionism has some pretty interesting stuff in it. Definitely food for thought there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM

My friend LH .... no I wasn't there (least I don't think I was) .. regardless, your statement (from what I interpet) applies that all Native Americans are arrogant and racist towards whites ... correct me if I'm wrong in my interpetation ... of course some humans of all races, religions can be arrogant and prejudiced ... but don't generalize 'all' based on a rotten experience, hell maybe you had too much sun ... BTW that guy in the Toronto moccasin shop is only crabby on Tuedsays and Wednesdays :).


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

'For instance' is not proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

Hizballah (Party of God) aka "Them"

The Hizballah is an umbrella organization of various radical Shi'ite groups and organizations which adhere to a Khomeinistic ideology. The organization was established following the 1982 Peace for Galilee War in Lebanon (and an increased Iranian presence and influence in Lebanon). The Hizballah organization was established as an organizational body for Shi'ite fundamentalists, led by religious clerics, who see in the adoption of Iranian doctrine a solution to the Lebanese political malaise. This included the use of terror as a means of attaining political objectives.

Toward the end of 1982 Iran sent fighters from its 'Iranian Revolutionary Guards' in order to assist in the establishment of a revolutionary Islamic movement in Lebanon whose members would participate in the 'Jihad', Holy War, against Israel. These forces, which were located in the area of Ba'albek in the northern Beqa'a valley, bestowed on the area an Iranian-Islamic character and constituted the core of the Hizballah organization in Lebanon.

The organization maintains a training apparatus in Lebanon throughout the villages and their surroundings, as well as outside of Lebanon. Training is aimed at building a reliable manpower source for its military forces as well as for its terror arm.

The spiritual father of the movement in Lebanon is Sheikh Muhammed Hussein Fadlallah who acts as chief Mujtahid - arbiter of Islamic law - of the Shi'ite community in Lebanon. With the passage of time, Hizballah has turned into an organization of secondary level groups working on the local level led by regional functionaries.

The current Secretary General of Hizballah is Hassan Nasrallah. At the start of the 1980's he was responsible for the Beka'a area on behalf of the AMAL movement. He left the organization in 1982 and affiliated with Hizballah, taking with him many of his followers. Following the death of Abbas Musawi, he was unanimously elected as his successor as commander of operations.

The Spread of Hizballah into Southern Lebanon
As the organizational infrastructure developed, Hizballah, with Iranian and Syrian assistance, began to establish an extensive military network in the Ba'albek area. Its militias have since spread into the Shi'ite neighborhoods in southern and western Beirut as well as into southern Lebanon.

This network is the principle base of Hizballah activities as well as for those of other radical Shi'ite groups. Thousands of Hizballah activists and members are located in the Beqa'a valley, Beirut and southern Lebanon. These areas also offer a base for the recruitment of additional activists and fighters among the local Shi'ite populations.

Following the IDF withdrawal from Lebanon in 1985 the Hizballah organization consolidated itself. The consolidation included the establishment of storage depots for weapons, recruitment of activists and fighters, and widespread aid to residents in S. Lebanon, such as the donation of money, equipment, medical supplies, etc. The purpose of the aid was to gain the support of the local population in favor of the organizations activities in the South.

The ideological basis of Hizballah is Khomeinism and its principle goal is the establishment of a pan-Islamic republic headed by religious clerics. The organization's world view was first published in its political platform in February 1985, as follows:
The solution to Lebanon's problems is the establishment of an Islamic republic as only this type of regime can secure justice and equality for all of Lebanon's citizen's.
The Hizballah organization views as an important goal the fight against 'western imperialism' and its eradication from Lebanon. The group strives for complete American and French withdrawal from Lebanon, including all their institutions.
The conflict with Israel is viewed as a central concern. This is not only limited to the IDF presence in Lebanon. Rather, the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem is an expressed goal.
Part of this radical ideology is the group's militant approach using terror as a means of attaining its goals. Hizballah decries the existence of Israel ('the little Satan'), viewed as foreign to the region and which constitutes a threat to Islam and Muslims. The destruction of Israel and the liberation of Jerusalem is deemed a religious obligation. The Hizballah organization justifies the use of terror against these enemies as a weapon in the hands of the weak and oppressed against the strong aggressor. In an effort to act upon and realize the predetermined ideological lines the group's leaders actively plan and perpetrate terror attacks against IDF and SLA forces, preach religious extremism against Israel and disseminate Iranian ideology. The Hizballah extends the conflict into Israeli territory and does not restrict its struggle to areas in Lebanon.

With the signing of the 'Ta'if Agreement' (1989) and the beginning of the 'Syrian arrangement in Lebanon, the Hizballah has been forced to conform to Syrian dictates. The Syrian interest in the continuation of terrorist attacks in South Lebanon has enabled the Hizballah to maintain its unique status in the Lebanese arena as the only major military force yet to be disarmed. The Syrians have prevented the Lebanese government from harming the military capabilities of the Hizballah, under the pretext of opposing the Israeli occupation, while at the same time enforcing their dictates upon the organization during periods when they are interested in calming the situation in southern Lebanon (as was the case following 'Operation Accountability' in July 1993 or the period coinciding with the Assad-Clinton meeting in January 1994).

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: podman
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:51 PM

New Yorker magazine had a series about Hezbollah and its organized campaign against Israel: This has been coming for some time. You don't assemble thousands of attack rockets overnight. The articles date from 2002.

Read part_one and part_two

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:58 PM

That's why the Israelis are doing what they are doing ... also don't forget the Hezbollah are rapidly moving long range rockets into southern Lebeanon that will reach Te Aviv.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:55 PM

Number 6, I would never imply that ALL the people in ANY group are arrogant and racist. I am merely saying that there was a significant amount of insecurity, arrogance, and prejudice showing itself among Native Americans I was around...and among Native Americans here and there that I wasn't around, but may have seen on the News or something.

At the same time, I met some marvelous people among the Native Americans, and my favorite folksinger is a Native American (Buffy Sainte-Marie)...and I've found her to be a very warm and fair-minded person (have had several impromptu discussions with her after concerts). For example, although Buffy has written some strongly worded songs in support of women's rights from time to time, she also makes a point in every concert I've ever seen her in to say something really good about men...about the extraordinary pressures that men are put under to be competitive and macho and all that stuff...and that people should appreciate what men have to go through and not put them down so much.

Hooray for Buffy Sainte-Marie.

Was Rolling Thunder arrogant? Oh, YEAH! (grin) But he was so over the top about it, you had to like him anyway, unless you were one of those people who hated him...and there certainly were some who did. The disarming thing about RT was, he fully admitted he was prejudiced and he was good at making jokes at his own expense now and then about it. He was a crusty, cantakerous hellraiser of a man who liked rattling people's cages.

The best medicine person I ever met was Brooke Medicine Eagle. I have nothing but good to say about that lady. She respected all people and cultures.

No, I would never say that all Native Americans were arrogant and racist. Hardly. What I would say is that when a media system bombards people for several decades (since the mid-60's) with shows that encourage only one politically correct viewpoint, based on race...that viewpiont being calculated to portray a people as victims, and mainstream whites as their evil oppressors...then a peculiar psychology can develop among some of the "victims". They can get a real chip on their shoulders, an unnecessary one, and some of them do. Then you have a problem.

I've seen that happen with some Native Americans, more than a few blacks, a rather small number of women, and more than a few Jews.

It's called having a "persecution complex". It looks so hard for prejudice everywhere that it often sees it where it doesn't exist (kind of like those WMDs in Iraq). ;-) Being around such people is wearing on the nerves. Expecting them to be fair-minded and even-handed usually leads to major disappointments. Getting them to see the other guy's point of view is usually downright hopeless.

For that reason, I don't really expect most Middle Eastern Muslims to be fair or rational about Israel...and I don't really expect most Israelis to be fair or rational about the Muslims they are fighting with there either. After all, they are both populations which at this point in history suffer from having really BIG persecution complexes, due to past and present events that have badly hurt their people.

Is that clearer?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:07 AM

Very clear ... I sent you a pm LH.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:12 AM

In the meantime the UN and European nations call for a cease fire and that it should include conditions acceptable to Syria and Iran. Well that means you accept their right to murder Jews because all Syria and Iran want is the complete destruction of Israel and the death of all Infidels. I say fuck em! Israel should keep fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:19 AM

I think Israel should stop unilaterally for three days. I expect that Hezbollah would not. After three days, when people can see the reality of Hezbollah, then take off the gloves and get serious about the war. Because so far Israel has done its best to limit civilian casualties. It means nothing to people who want Isreal's destruction. Then, Israel could say, "That is the nature of the enemy." Then if people don't like it, screw 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM

I agree with you on that 100% Peace.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,abe
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

"peace" what sort of name is that, for some wanker yanker who wants to "get serious about the war" stick the idiot on the front line I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

Because they are arrogant arseholes.

Wait till their oil runs out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

When their oil runs out, we will all have a great deal to worry about...but I probably won't live quite long enough to see that (got my fingers crossed). And I'll make sure to reincarnate on Arcturus 4 next time instead of coming back here! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

Wasn't it former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir who said that once the Arabs learned to queue, Israel would be in big trouble (or words to that effect)?

Yes, I know that's rather a cheap, flippant comment, but it does have some relevance to the title question of this thread, as does the well-known expression that includes the words "piss-up", "brewery" and "organise".

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

I saw a show on the Discovery channel about an oil field just off of Sakhalin island on the east coast of Russia. The field contains more oil than Saudi Arabia according to taht program.

Two giant drilling platforms are being built in S Korea for the field. Each one can handle 26 wells drilled down and then off at an angle.

I am sure there are more fields like this in the world that can replace all the oil comming from the middle east in the near future.

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/oil/index2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

'Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,abe - PM
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

"peace" what sort of name is that, for some wanker yanker who wants to "get serious about the war" stick the idiot on the front line I say!'

I think that's English. Let me give you some back.

What do you, arsehole, see wrong with Israel calling a unilateral cease fire? Then when Hezbollah does not--after three days--Isreal resumes the war. That too complicted for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM

BTW, 'abe', complicted is not a real word. I made it up as you make things up. Eat me, fu#khead.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:10 AM

Still waiting for Myles to brave the current stream and return with a report.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM

"Why can't the Arab nations unite and finaly end the suffering of the people of Palestine once and for all against that little plot of American soil which can seem to do whatever it likes against these poor people."


End the unjust occupation of Arab land, now!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM

Hey, Peace-

Israel has them surrounded!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

Just released by an Australian news service:

Israel suspends south Lebanon strikes

From correspondents in Jerusalem

July 31, 2006

ISRAEL today suspended air strikes in southern Lebanon for 48 hours while it investigates the Qana bombings, US State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said.
"Israel has agreed to a 48-hour suspension of aerial activity in south Lebanon," Mr Ereli told reporters after talks between US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and top Israeli officials.

Israel would also coordinate with the United Nations on a 24-hour period of "safe passage" for civilians that wish to leave the area, Mr Ereli said.

Dozens of Lebanese women and children died in an Israeli strike on Qana, sparking renewed international calls for an immediate ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Howard5252
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:45 AM

In the arab countries, school children are being taught to hate Israel. As lomg as this is allowed to continue, the war will go on with only the names changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,abe
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:51 AM

Peace - you tosser. The lying jews have suspended nothing!

If you want to fuck with me I'll meet you in the Devonshire Arms SW16 Fridat 9pm!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Abe
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:52 AM

Or even Friday -

Ooops thats the sabat so you will be at the SIN O'gog!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Howard5252
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:10 AM

If the Jewish people had the power that the hate mongers claim they have and if the Jewish people controlled the resources that the hate mongers claim they do ... those hate mongers would have been stepped upon like the bugs they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

Frankly Abe, you dont come across as the sort of person anyone would want a fuck with...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM

Guest,abe

watch that throbbing vein in your TEMPLE.

Wouldn't want any actual thought to lead to a stroke_. . .

Is 'tosser' some kind of code word for "I've run out of clever things to say"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM

"Peace - you tosser. The lying jews have suspended nothing!

If you want to fuck with me I'll meet you in the Devonshire Arms SW16 Fridat 9pm!!!"

Bite me, asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:09 PM

"Or even Friday -

Ooops thats the sabat so you will be at the SIN O'gog!!"

You sound like the kind of guy who gets his mouth and courage from a bottle. Try typing the next time you're sober, OK pal? Until then, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

GUEST,abe.

I have reread all the posts of yours I can locate. You sound like a drunk. Unfortunately, you write like one, too. Please, the next time you are sober--which is likely to be sometime in the year 2016--return and post more, OK?

Have a nice day, luv.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM

"Tosser" is a word beloved of angry UK-ers...but they fail to realize how completely silly and without impact it sounds when it falls on North American ears.

"Oh, my God! He called me a...a tosser...(sob!)..." ;-)

Teribus always used to call me a tosser when he would get totally upset with me about something. It would puzzle me when he did that. I wasn't sure what he meant. Now if he had called me a "diddlyboob"...or a "terwilliger"...THEN I would have known how to react! Yessiree. I would have sent the attack hamsters out to render dire retribution on him.

* sigh * The recurrent problems of local idioms obscuring good communication between people who can't stand each other. It's tragic.

Well, I still think Israel's out of line, as you might expect...not that their opponents aren't out of line also...but I'm not going to waste my time today telling you what you already know full well.

Just carry on without me. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Black Tom
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:11 AM

Let us hope they never do. Unification would be under a group like Hammas. In twenty years they could take over the world. We would then have the choice to convert to Islam, or die. They would make the Nazis look like nice guys!