What price the truth!!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: PeteBoom
Date: 30 Jun 03 - 09:53 PM

I can think of no major world religion whose adherents have not launched its own barbaric actions upon folks not sharing the same religion/sect/precise form of worship.

I can also think of no major religion whose adherents have not done incredible good works for the benefit of their felow beings - simply because they could do something to help them.

Doesn't this whole balance thing just stink?

Maybe we should have simply responded by saying "OH! Entity that probably does not exist as popularly described, if at all - you're absolutely right! It must be a conspiracy they dreamed up the last time they met at The Meadows, just before the Colonel went 'tets up'".

Back to practicing...

Pete

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 03 - 06:05 PM

Darn right it's sobering, tunesmith, although I don't consider it to be all based on fiction. It's also very sobering to note that the Jews' own sense of having been persecuted has led to them doing much the same thing to a great many other people in the Middle East. Clearly, they have much to learn about tolerance and humility (as do those who are fighting them).

Anyone has good reason to fear a religious group who have assured themselves that they are morally superior to everyone else around them, and have the right to assert that superiority through violent force.

That is why most of the World fears the USA, which has invented its own myth-based cultural religion of "liberty, freedom, and the American Way", which amounts to nothing more than grand imperialism in search of material profit.

One last comment. Christ didn't set people free. He demonstrated to them how they could set themselves (and others) free. Most of them would rather leave the job to him, because they are essentially too lazy to do the spiritual work required to free themselves. It's much easier to just make a ritualistic statement of blind faith ("I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ"), and dump all the work on "the Lord"...

You don't get to the top of a mountain without moving your own feet and shedding your own blood, tears and sweat (if I may paraphrase Churchill).

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jun 03 - 07:37 AM

Certain groups have had very good reasons for fearing other regilions. The Jews, for example, have suffered terribly because Christians blamed them for the death of Christ - even though he had to die to set mankind free. It's very sobbering to realise that a work of pure fiction has caused so much devastation.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 03 - 12:12 AM

Your chosen view of what you think life is, and what you think life is about...is your religion. A religion does not require a church, a supreme being, a priestly order, a holy book or an organized set of written doctrines...it simply requires a belief structure about reality, and everyone has their own unique belief structure about reality...most commonly acquired from their parents, their culture, and their particular set of growing-up and living experiences.

If they are flexible, their belief structure will change and become enlarged through various experiences in the course of time, and they will become wiser, and their religion will become more realistic and tolerant of other religions. If they are inflexible, then they will remain in their accustomed rut and deteriorate in it until they die...and likely cause a good deal of misery in the World while they are at it.

Everyone, including the most passionate atheist and the most literal-minded and mundane materialist has a unique religion all his own, although he may categorically refuse to recognize or admit that he does, because his definition of the word "religion" is too narrow.

The most gifted in religious awareness are willing to recognize the value in another's religion, and seek to understand it better. The least gifted despise another's religion, fear it, deny it, and may even take up arms against it.

It's all a matter of free will.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 03 - 07:17 PM

"The Medium Is The MAssage" was a book published in the '70s by Marshal McLuhan. In it he posited that the medium by which a message was sent affected the message itself (this is very, very simplified). His works are still germane and I suggest reading them.

The title is usually misquoted as "The medium is the mEssage" which is ridiculous on the face of it.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,God
Date: 29 Jun 03 - 12:38 AM

Godless? Don't be foolish. Everyone worships someone or something. It may not be me, my friend, but you have your own pantheon of chosen divinities, be assured, and by them you are governed, whether you realize it or not.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,native
Date: 29 Jun 03 - 12:02 AM

As a godless man, doughters should realize that the Roman Goveners were very capable when it came to records of people and events

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 08:20 PM

Glad you liked it. I bet Jesus had a great sense of humour, but you don't hear much about that side of him now.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:45 PM

LH, that wast funny as hell!!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 02:50 PM

Jesus also is also reputed to have said to his disciples on another occasion "Ye are all gods, and sons of the most high". Therefore, that indicates that he did not think he was the ONLY son of God, but he extended that position to others as well.

It was his followers who chose to give him the "one and only" status. Their mistake, not his. His closest followers were also guilt-stricken (understandably) that they had run away and abandoned him at the time of his arrest and crucifixion, and I think that is a major reason why we find so much guilt and sin consciousness embedded in the Christian religion to this day, because it was those followers who put together the Christian religion. They stamped their own guilt upon all of humanity. I do not get the impression Jesus was into guilt in the least. He was into transformation. He said "Go thy way and sin no more"...not..."Go thy way lamenting over how bad thou wast in the past and beating thyself silly over it."

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 10:35 PM

Rapaire, (4:56 PM) I have to get it out of my system so- I hadn't stopped to think that massage comes in small, medium and large or perhaps, light, medium and heavy? I like to give massages but don't particularly like to receive them so I'm not aware of the distinctions...:)

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 09:59 PM

I would say that Little Hawk seems to have a pretty good grasp of the general idea.

Consider that the Gospels, from which we derive our notions of what Jesus said and did, were written decades after his death, and by men who were not there at the time and did not actually see him, know him, or hear him speak. Many conservative Christians—and definitely the fundamentalists—are not dismayed by this. They believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and of the Gospels. It's all true, they maintain, because the men who wrote the Bible were inspired directly by God.

I would be drummed out of the corps for saying so of course, but I don't believe this. The Bible was selected and compiled by men, inspired or otherwise, from a bloody-great stack of material, and there is plenty that was left out (I'm almost tempted to say that there is "nothing sacred about it," but discretion cautions me to refrain). I believe that there is a lot in the Gospels that is attributed to Jesus that he never actually said, or at the very least, is distorted. I have a number of reasons for taking this position. First, I am instantly suspicious of the idea that any particular individual was "inspired by God." Much evil has taken place in the world because of people who claimed to have been inspired by God and by the hordes who believed in them (think up your own historical examples; there are a lot of them). Dangerous assumption. Second, for some decades after Jesus' crucifixion, these stories and sayings were relayed by oral tradition. Now, I think those who frequent this web site have some knowledge of the vagaries inherent in the oral tradition. Comprenez-vous "folk process?" I rest my case. It was many decades after Jesus departed that the Gospels were written, by men who decided (quite probably noting that the fish kept getting bigger every time the story got told) that they had better write this down before it gets screwed up entirely. Four of these men were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

But they weren't the only ones. Alan Millard, in Discoveries From the Time of Jesus said, "Today we know of just over thirty papyrus manuscripts of New Testament books which can be dated before the fourth century. Each copy has its own oddities and mistakes: no two are completely identical, or the same as the Codex Sinaiticus [ca. 350 C.E.] or other later manuscripts. . . . In the Gospels there are about seventy places altogether where scholars are doubtful about the original reading—that is to say, are unsure whether one group of manuscripts or another has the correct words."   

Also, there is considerable evidence of the one-time existence of a manuscript containing the actual sayings of Jesus that someone took down at the time he said them. It didn't talk about Jesus' birth or his death, or any miracles he is alleged to have performed, it was strictly a collection of quotations. The manuscript no longer exists (or, at least, has not been found), but it is believed by a number of theologians and historians that the first Gospel written was Mark's, and that Matthew and Luke, unaware of each other's writing, both borrowed from Mark and from a copy of the lost manuscript. By going through the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew's, Mark's and Luke's) and making an exhaustive comparison of similar statements reputed to have been made by Jesus, a group of hard-nosed theologians have put together a list of Jesus' quotes from these three Gospels and rated them in terms of "Quite probably said it," "May have said it," and "Doubtful that he said it." There are a number of books on the subject, and there is a great deal of information and discussion of this on the internet. Put "Q Gospel" into the search box in google, and cyberspace with cough it up for you. HERE's one, for openers.

Whether Jesus ever actually claimed to be God is in the "Doubtful" column. And whether Jesus actually said that he was the only way is also in the "Doubtful" column.

Of course, conservative Christians and fundamentalists shriek, wail, stamp on their hats, and tell you that you are buying a one-way ticket of Hell whenever you mention the Q Gospel (the three way breakdown), but considering the inconsistencies and contradictions contained in the Gospels, this kind of analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Whether our brains evolved out of a primitive clump of ganglia, or they were given to us by God, they are there for us to use, and I think we should use them.   

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:11 PM

I was wondering again if anyone had read about fairly recently discovered texts which suggested that very early christianity was broader and more inclusive than appeared later.

   I tend to agree that later the christian church has been rather soft on sins that Jesus was rather hard on, like greed, and the church has been conversly quite strident on subjects about which Jesus apparently said very little at all, like sex. And so on, blah blah.

   I tend to think the teachings in the New Testament are pretty strikingly heroic and difficult to live by, and my experience with the religion seems always to easy it up a lot, water it down, interpret it into whatever suits what one can actually hope to live up to. You know the camel passing through the eye of a needle? well, turns out "camel" most likely meant a kind of twine, so, it's hard, but not THAT hard, if you're rich. And turn the other cheek? well, see, that was a kind of insult, back in the day, so it really means you have to put up with some teasing, sometimes, but you can pop open a can of christian whoop-ass when you need to. Maybe the softening of the meaning is a form of kindness to the weak, though, I don't know. The text is mind-boggling to me but I've usually found the religion a chore.

But if David Koresh, god or man, preached a coherent body of seminal moral thought comparable to the New Testament, I missed reading it. Probably the government covered it up. If he faced his persecutors in quite the same way, well, he didn't, I think. It's merely facile to compare things that aren't quite alike. Jesus being the son of god seems a little muddied by references to everyone else as the children of god, and I've always found the all-or-nothing argument a little unfounded in light of the story as we have it.

There are more precise condemnations one would make if they were taking the question seriously--that the crucifixion looked like suicide, or whatever. But I object to pretending to take the question seriously when one is obviously possessed of a particular sense of it.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:02 PM

Guest Gene Burton, at least you are brave enough to post your name.

What we have is what the Evangelists say was said. The Jesus Seminar
has identified various sayings, and rather than go into that here I suggest that you investigate their work.

In effect, what we read in the New Testament is whatever someone says was said, and then the work filtered through various editions in the early Christian Church until we get what we have today as the definitive Word.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 06:57 PM

Sure. No sweat. When a person achieves enlightenment (or Self-realization, as it is sometimes called) he becomes God individualized in a fully conscious way, rather than just being God individualized in an unconscious way. Everyone is God individualized in an unconscious way...because everything is constructed out of the intelligent energy and various manifested stuff that is an extension of God into what we call Space and Time.

In being God individualized the person can then most certainly be termed the child ("the Son") of God. She could also be termed "the Daughter of God", in such a case (but the Jews had a very patriarchal society, and would not have given much of a welcome to that notion). Meaning, he/she is now the fully fledged Son/Daughter on a conscious level.

I am told that when one achieves that consciousness one cannot help but love all beings and all of creation, and I believe it. I've met such a person and had ample opportunities to see how a person like that conducts himself/herself in regards to the World in general. To put it simply, such a person acts impeccably according to the Golden Rule, and renders profound service unto others, and does it courageously, steadfastly, and with great joyfullness and committment. Such a person can also get tough with others when conditions require it, but not to harm them...in fact, to help them. He can even become a warrior under extreme conditions, and that has happened here and there in the past. The Baghavad Gita gives some interesting examples of such a situation, though they can be interpreted as an allegory for the "inner struggle" within any human being between his own potential for darkness and light.

He then speaks as the consciousness that IS God, and says, "Before the World was formed I AM." What he/she says then is absolutely true, from that level of consciousness. He's not talking about his physical body (which is transitory), he is talking about the eternal living Spirit which he is experiencing on a conscious level.

When he says "No one comes to the father except through the Son", he is again stating a simple fact. You cannot come to the whole God, the One, the Father/Mother except through becoming the Son/Daughter first. Only through individualizing as God yourself can you fully encounter the all-embracing Oneness that is God. You don't do it through Jesus or Mohammed or Buddha (though they could help guide you in doing it)...you do it by going within and finding what Jesus found inside yourself. When you succeed in that you ARE the Son of God. You're like a conscious cell in the body of God. Most of the cells in that body are instinctive and only conscious of their own individual separateness and their own ego drives.

Jesus was suggesting that people follow his example, not worship him. They have mostly chosen to worship him. Why? Because they are lazy, in all probability, and would rather have someone else do it all for them like a magician doing a magic trick...or because they just don't understand the principles involved...and the traditional churches (mostly) have not done very much to clarify that situation. In fact, they have obscured it in order to increase their power over people.

Now I realize, Gene, that you may scoff at this explanation, and that's your right. But give it some consideration. It is one possible answer to your perfectly reasonable question.

You see, merely worshipping is a simple, child-like process. Self-realization is a tremendous challenge, and very few people take it on, let alone achieve it in a single lifetime. Maybe one in ten thousand does, if that. Maybe one in a hundred thousand. I doubt that I will manage it in this lifetime. But I've seen it. And it's quite simply the most beautiful thing I've seen, along with the grand beauty of Nature itself.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 06:35 PM

still at it is he? *sigh*... I am not a religious person, and have a sort of general agreement with Tunesmith, but this sort of hammering and nagging and having an anti Jesus book waved in your face can be just as tedious as having the Bible waved at you when you don't appreciate it!

There are times to debate the issues, and there is much TO debate, but, jiminy! Give it a rest, Tunesmith!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Gene Burton
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 05:10 PM

May I throw a spanner in the works? A number of people here have made comments to the effect that whilst they agree with and applaud pretty much all of Jesus' teachings, they do not accept that He intended that people worship Him as the one true God (also a number have said that they believe that there are many different ways to the Truth, etc., etc.). Question: How do you reconcile that kind of universalist view with the fact that Jesus is clearly recorded as having stated that He was/is God ("Before the world was formed, I AM"); and that salvation was through Him alone ("No-one comes to the father except through the Son").
The consensus seems to be that Jesus was a great moral teacher and nothing more. But surely his claims about himself, outlined above, do not leave that interpretation of His life open to us? Either his claims were false, in which case He must simply have been a deluded megalomaniac a la David Koresh- that is, hardly a great man by any objective reckoning- or they were true; in which case eternal salvation really must hinge on a saving faith in Him and Him alone. Any thoughts/commenmts?

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 04:56 PM

More, JC said, "I bring you a new covenant...." "I will tear down the temple and in three days build it up again...." "...a new commandment..."

All of it speaks to JC stating that he was making a new beginning, tossing out the old and brining in something new.

Stuff like "Treat other like you'd want to be treated" and "Love the creator and love your neighbor."

What's wrong with that? The medium is the massage, and the massage is the message here. (And yes, the correct phrase is "the medium is the massage", NOT the way it's usually quoted.)

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 02:44 PM

Tunesmith, your mistake is in your blanket condemnation of Christianity.

Let us assume for the moment that Jesus actually did exist, and that he did say the things that the Bible attributes to him.

Within my fairly considerable experience, the noisiest "Christians"—those who claim to be followers of Jesus and claim that they are acting in his name—are generally people whom Jesus would not recognize as being followers of his. Many of them seem to embrace an Old Testament God, one with lots of laws and no mercy, given to retribution and vengeance, not at all averse to war and the wholesale slaying of the enemies of His chosen people. Either that, or the only book of the Bible they seem to have read is the Book of Revelation and are focused on "the End Time," when they will go to Heaven—but most importantly, those whom they regard as sinners (anyone who does not believe—in detail—as they do) will be dragged off, kicking and screaming, to Hell. Someplace along the line, they seem to have neglected a thorough reading of the Gospels, where one finds the teachings of Jesus. These people usually grab secular power whenever they can (they wish to force their beliefs down the throats of any and all who fall under their power), and the result is almost always intolerance and oppression, sometimes on a grand scale. Historically, though, oftentimes the motivation has little to do with religious belief. Religion is usurped to reinforce secular power (Divine Right of Kings, for example). History is full of this sort of stuff, and if this were real Christianity, then I would have to agree with what you say.

But—Jesus was a revolutionary on a number of counts. He negated all of that. Instead of the vengeful God of the Old Testament, Jesus spoke of a forgiving God. And rather than advocating a theocracy, he drew a strong distinction between Caesar and God. Many who call themselves "Christians" seem to have missed all that. So—do they really believe in Christ? Are they really Christians?

Although it doesn't seem like it because the stir they make is all out of proportion to their numbers, these people are in the minority. They seem to be the majority because they make the most noise, grab the most press, and try to wield the most secular power. And because they make the most noise, people who don't know any better assume that this is what Christianity is all about. It's not.

Again, within a mile and a half of where I live (not a particularly atypical neighborhood), there are about a dozen churches of various denominations that are as I describe in my post above (25 Jun 03 - 05:55 PM). They are not out buttonholing you on the street and shoving tracts into your hand, nor are they trying to dictate to the local schools or take over the local government. They are not agitating about when and where you are supposed to pray, nor are they trying to get books banned from the library. They are, however, hard at work trying to find jobs for the unemployed and housing for the homeless, and providing meals for those in need. One acts as a host to families accompanying patients visiting Seattle for treatment at the nearby Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center, providing housing and seeing to their needs. One of them is the national headquarters of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship, a peace activist organization, and several of them host meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous and other support groups. At least one of them has two pastors, one of whom is especially charged with coodinating this kind of social outreach. In none of this do they do any proselytizing. They take that passage from Matthew 25 (quoted above) serious, and they feel that the best kind of proselytizing is not by words, but by example.

These, to my mind, are Christians—followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The world is a lot better off because of these people.

Whether Jesus actually existed or not is of secondary importance. The message is what matters (but be sure you get the right message!).

How do you tell a Christian from a "Christian?"

Another Biblical quote: "By their works ye shall know them."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: The O'Meara
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 01:31 PM

Seems to me that the message attributed to Jesus is pretty simple - treat people the way you want to be treated yourself. This strikes me as a pretty good idea. (Some other people seem to think so too, since that notion keeps popping up in all sorts of religions across the board.) Seems the rest of "organized religion" was tacked on for a bunch of typically human reasons. (Sometimes called the "disciple syndrome.") Jesus may or may not have existed exactly as described in the bible, but that message is still a good one.
   Maybe we should heed Joseph Campbell and pay attention to the message, not the messenger.
   Personally, I'm agnostic - after thinking about it for many years I have to say I don't really know. (Dear sir or madam; you could be right.) I think of myself as spiritual but not very religious, and tend toward the earth-based philosophies like those of the Hindus and Native Americans, rather than the heaven-based philosophies like those of the Christians and Muslims. (Live with nature vs conquer nature.) Makes more sense to me.
    I think one of the problems we're having with Tunesmith's suggestion that Jesus never existed is the presumption that therefore Jesus' teachings are no good either. Maybe?

O'Meara

    ps I was in the U.S. army for several years and I'll bet I'm the only soldier to have "agnostic" stamped on his dog tags. I'm also ex-Catholic so I wondered if they could find an Agnostic priest for me if I were wounded

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 12:07 PM

Friends who teach at a Catholic college put it very succinctly: "We don't let our church get in the way of our religion."

Statistical studies on American Catholics demonstrate that most feel the same way: their church is NOT their religion. Witness, for instance, the attitudes toward birth control.

From my readings into the religion of the Indians, the Bible, into Hinduism, in the writings of Lao Tzu, the Buddha, and so on, certain basic principles do emerge. LH has listed them.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 09:40 AM

The typical human vices that get in the way of every common endeavour have not been good for Christianity...if Christianity is taken to mean "what Jesus taught". If, on the other hand, you are referring to the historic activities of the bureaucratic institutions called "churches", then I would have to fairly much agree. They have been responsible for a lot of very harmful things. They have also been responsible for a number of good things. Sorting it all out and arriving at a single conclusion now would be almost impossible, unless one was blinded by prejudice, in which case it would be easy.

On the whole, though, I prefer the Native American religion, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. I have some trouble relating to all three of the Judeo-Christian religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) that arose in the Middle East. They have a guilt-ridden and severe patriarchal streak in them that I really don't like. They tend to be very militant and warlike as well.

I don't particularly think of Jesus as a Christian! :-) I think Christianity was something that others launched later in his name.

I have no problems with the actual teachings he gave (or which were reputed to have been given by him, if you prefer). Those same teachings are found at the heart of virtually all religions...and that suggests to me that the message does not change...only the messenger.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:38 AM

Please, you can debate the exixtence of Jesus, but don't tell me that Christianity has been good for the human race. Weighing and pros and cons, I think the negative side wins. Christainity has indeed help shape the Western world, but I'm not too sure that the shape it has produced is one to be proud of.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 04:56 PM

Dare I say "Amen?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 04:44 PM

One of the best things about religion (whether it be Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American Medicine Way, Judaism, Janism, or any number of others) is that it enlarges one's sense of responsibility to others and to the World and to life itself...it extends the conscious boundaries of life.

Among the most basic teachings of religion stands this one...It's not ALL about me! There are others here whose rights matter just as much as mine do.

Religion challenges the narcissism of the isolated ego, and suggests that there are greater purposes to life than the little things the ego desires...and that leads directly to a much enlarged intelligence and sense of social responsibility, providing a person accepts the challenge and takes it on.

That sense of the sacred in life is the very thing, in fact, which civilizes us. Without anything sacred in life we are brutes engaging in mere survival tactics.

The fact that religion is also frequently divisive and destructive is largely because that little ego in the brute readily finds ways to abuse religion too. The ego is a clever little monster with entirely selfish concerns...survival, self-gratification, and enlargement of its holdings and power. To the ego only itself is sacred. All else is an opportunity to be made use of...or a danger to avoid.

Jesus' teachings were a spectacular challenge to that kind of narrow thinking, and deserve to be studied with great care regardless of whether or not one is a "Christian" (and there are many definitions of that word out there).

To be human is to recognize the humanity in others and treat them as you would wish to be treated under the same circumstances.

Great religions, great philosophies, and great scientific breakthroughs are not initiated or accomplished by non-existent people. They are accomplished by real flesh and blood humans, and those humans are remembered for a long time.

Somewhere down the line various little raging egos will seek to ensure their own transitory fame and sense of self-importance by writing books "proving" that Jesus or Buddha or Krishna or King Arthur or Robin Hood or Lao-Tse or someone else like that never existed. The value of their puny literary contribution to human development will be easily measured by how long their books are remembered. I give the guys who wrote your book a few years, at best.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 04:12 PM

You're welcome, Susan.

Be sure to use this power for Good, now. . . ;-).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 03:17 PM

... wouldn't be caught dead within ten blocks of a church, and this, of course, makes you an authority on religion...

THANK you, that is exactly the phrase I have been struggling to find for several years! :~)

Scuse me, gotta go oppress, confuse, bamboozle, and swindle some more folks over at church... oh yeah, we're having a picnic to discuss a thinking-person's 4-year ministry course that I co-teach.... scripture, church history, doctrine, ethics, all that jazz-- gotta sharpen up my torture devices! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 02:46 PM

Tunesmith, how young are you? You sound a bit like me when I was sixteen, discovered the writings of Philip Wylie, and learned that not everything I was being taught in school was necessarily true. I was a real pain in the butt for quite a while.

Churches (not all, grant you, but a fair number of the more liberal ones) have been batting this subject around for years. The adult forums in some of the neighborhood churches I mentioned above have been having discussions along these lines for at least twenty-five years that I know of. Undoubtledly the reason you don't know this is that you wouldn't be caught dead within ten blocks of a church, and this, of course, makes you an authority on religion.

As to the media, there have been several television shows on the historical bases and the evolution of religion within recent years (last five or ten) and they keep coming back. One was a series entitled "The Search for the Historical Jesus" (Discovery Channel, if I remember right). I believe this was where I learned (mentioned above) about the historical records of a Joshua bar Joseph who was crucified (standard Roman method of execution at the time) as a disruptive influence. The Romans kept very good records. There is no "hard evidence" in these records that say unequivocally that this person was the Jesus of the Bible, but the fact that "Jesus" is the Greek equivalent of "Joshua," and that this Joshua had a group of followers is enough for the faithful to latch onto as sufficient evidence. Not really enough to call absolute proof, but it does blow a bit of a hole in the arguments of those who insist that he didn't exist. So it breaks down to a matter of faith, n'est-ce pas?

There was another more general telecast recently, featuring a group of anthropologists and archeologists searching for archeological evidence for some of the various stories in the Bible. The book of Exodus didn't come off too well as an accurate historical record. It seems that, contrary to popular belief, the Egyptians never kept slaves. The assumption was made by archeologists sometime in the nineteenth century that the pyramids would have been impossible to build without slave labor. More recent research (not based on mere assumption) shows that the ancient Egyptians were remarkably enlightened for the times and had learned early on that keeping slaves is not economically feasible over the long run, so they didn't. The crossing of the Red Sea has drawn all sorts of speculation, assuming that the Israelites were ever in Egypt in the first place. Another fact that cast serious doubt on the story is that evidence has been found on the Sinai Peninsula of the remains of shepherds' campfires that can be dated as far back as 6,000 years ago, but no signs of any group of any size wandering the area for forty years. Any group of the size indicated in the Bible would have left plenty of evidence, and archeologists have not been able to find it (maybe it's like WMDs in Iraq?). The conclusion that some of them drew was that the story told in Exodus is allegorical. Like much of the Bible (fundamentalists hate that!).

In addition to a substantial number of television shows (granted, shown on channels watched by the more serious-minded, like Discovery, or the History Channel, or PBS, not the Big Three commercial channels, or MTV, or the Cartoon Channel, or Comedy Central, or Nickelodeon), there is a whole library of books. If you are seriously pursuing knowledge and not just messing around, I would recommend that you start with something solid and scholarly, like A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong. Karen Armstrong was once a nun, but she left the Church. Now, she is a historian, and in her books she deals with various aspects of religion and religious belief. She doesn't mince words. And she's not particularly friendly toward fundamentalism, orthodoxy, and organized religion. She is not trying to sell anything, she's just laying it out for you to look at. This is where religion came from, this is how it evolved over time, and this is what it's all about.

If I wanted to learn about the real nature of the Cosmos, I wouldn't start by watching "The X-Files" and reading books like Flying Saucers are Real. I would start with the writings of people like Timothy Ferris or Stephen W. Hawking. And I would take the same approach if I were seriously interested in learning about religion and its history.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 12:21 PM

You can really see that church suppression has hurt the sales of The DaVinci Code, too!

.... where the "restoration" of the divine feminine is laid out, and which offers thoughts on the marriage of Jesus to Mary Magdalene!

No shortage of Mysteries, wherever you look-- we all choose which ones to contemplate. Proselytizing for any one view or belief system, however, is generally not appreciated at Mudcat... Tunesmith, insisting that people follow your idea is, in fact, a form of proselytizing. Otherwise, I might advise you to try Dr. Phil's book (it's on the paperback advice best seller's list)!

~Susan

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 12:12 PM

You can really see that church suppression has hurt hurt the sales of The DaVinci Code
, too!

.... where the "restoration" of the divine feminine is laid out, and which offers thought son the marriage of Jesus to Mary Magdalene!

No shortage of Mysteries, wherever you look-- we all choose which ones to contemplate. Proselytizing for any one view or belief system, however, is generally not appreciated at Mudcat... Tunesmith, insisting that people follow your idea is, in fact, a form of proselytizing. Otherwise, I might advise you to try Dr. Phil's book (it's on the paperback advice best seller's list)!

~Susan

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 12:02 PM

Backing Rapaire up on the fact that this stuff is not kept hidden, I have actually heard Fransicans talk about this stuff on the Today Show--As for my own exposure, we learned about all this stuff in Unitarian Sunday School--(Unitarians having broken away from mainstream Christianity after the the Council of Nicea in 326 A.Dwhere they developed the concept of the Trinity and where they decided on which scriptures would be included in the Bible-the 66 books that we now call the Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of 568 to 563)--


Check out these sites: The Jesus Puzzle and Messianic Truth for more details on the questionable aspects of the scriptures, but remember that the authors who are debunking Christianity tend to have their own agendas, be it Neo-Paganism, Goddess Worship, Messianic Judaism--and all of these have aspects that are, in turn, highly debunkable--

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Sam L
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 10:46 AM

Oh come on. You're being kind. Kinda silly. Someone at the top has decided. O, come on now.

There used to be a great t.v. show when I was a kid called Kolchak, the night stalker, about an odd-ball little reporter for a national-enquirer sort of rag. All the weird stories were true, but in the end were covered up by the government, in it's dedication to protect us all from weird information. It was that guy, the dad in A Christmas Story, whatsisname, in a white seersucker suit. Really a funny premise.

   Geez, Tunesmith, a person doesn't have to read any particular book to lack faith, or have doubts about any particular religion. I get my conspiracies mixed up--is it the old Jewish conspiracy maybe that's trying to foist the myth of the existance Jesus on everyone? Wow, that would be a pretty sly ploy. Another way of doubting Jesus requires no other book than the bible itself--the strained cobbling of the new testament story to fit the prophesies in the old testament. Borges once wrote a little fictional story arguing that Judas was actually the messiah, which was mistakenly published as earnest scholarship, I think by Robert Creely.

   I don't know. Kevin Smith made a popular movie in which Alanis Morrisette was God. There was some fuss about Scorcese's Jesus movie, which others of us found merely boring. I guess some people might be upset by such a t.v. special. Is that the point? To upset people like your wife and mother? I don't know if you'll find backers. Most documentaries want to generate a broader interest generally than simply to upset some people.

   That the same stories get retold isn't proof anyone didn't exist, it's proof of how people tell stories, regardless. The New Testament itself suggests that it may be mistold, in the literary tradition of unreliable narrators. Jesus is perpetually surprised by his disciple's lack of understanding, and they are the reporters.

   Anyone who wants to doubt, can. Abraham Lincoln rejected Jesus. Some people will try to impose their beliefs on you, but you can also question the impulse to respond in kind.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 10:45 AM

Dear Tunesmith,

I have a minor in Theology, as taught by the Franciscan monks (OFM). Throughout the courses I took, parallels were noted between the Biblical Jesus of Nazareth and other Biblical figures such a Noah (parallel is Babylonian -- go find out for yourself). The parallels to Osiris and others were studied. You have also missed, in your focus on JC, parallels to his mother -- she was not the first to have either a virgin birth OR and immaculate conception! Again, these parallels are not kept hidden away; you should be able to find them in or obtain them from any halfways decent public library.

If your friends are ignorant of these parallels, I can only suggest that they haven't the curiousity or inclination to investigate.

As for your prime time show, it might be made for Discovery or the History Channel, but I doubt that sponsors for the commercial networks would see enough profit in it to back it. I encourage you to try for it, though, because you're correct in assuming that it would be watched. Whether or not it would be believed is another story. I hardly think, though, that it would destroy Western or world civilization -- Erich Von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods?" series certainly didn't, the "Bermuda Triangle" silliness hasn't, the writings of Thomas Paine, Voltaire, and others hasn't, and I strongly doubt that such a show would do so.

I urge you to go read some other books. The Truth is out there, but like most things, it is neither simple nor easily obtained -- certainly not from one book or One Book.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 07:23 AM

First, it's amazing! Two correspondance have already said that they will not be reading " The Jesus Mysteries". Very interesting. Secondly, I still maintain that if "The Jesus Mysteries" were turned into a primetime tv program it would create worldwide unrest.
Thirdly, I dispute the view that the information contained in " The Jesus Mysteries" is common knowledge. As I have stated previously, I have friends who teach R.E. and they were unaware of the parallels between Jesus and previous godmen. I will agree that the church has conceded that Jesus wasn't born on 25th Dec, but the church will try to keep the lid on all those disturbing Jesus/Pagan Gods parallels.
Your average churchgoer - my wife, my mother , would never dream of questioning the validity of the Bible. But they might watch a well advertised, primetime tv program called "The Jesus Mysteries". But, as I have already stated, it will never happen. Maybe for purely pramatic reasons ( I'm being kind here ) someone at the top has probably decided that such a program would have a devastating effect on the stability of the Western World.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 10:07 PM

Curious why you seem so upset about what you read in that book, Tunesmith--Though not much discussed in the mass media, the things you mention are not new ideas to those who have studied history, religion, and literature, and their factuality or lack of factuality really has little to do with the philosophical underpinnings of Christianity--

You never answered the questions about your age, but whatever it is, you seem fairly naive, since you have obviously accepted the truth in what these particular writers have presented, without question--At any rate, most of the people here(even the mainstream Christians) have been around long enough to have much better reasons to question the institution of Christianity than the authors of your book have layed out--

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 08:17 PM

Give us a fresh tune...

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 07:59 PM

There's only so much time in life to do the things that you must, ought to, and want to do.

With all the great and wonderful books I have sitting in my "to read" pile, I see no reason to add to that pile a shrill anti-Christian polemic. Surely I had my fill of shrill anti-Christian polemic in my 13 years of state-supported education and 9 years of university.

Tunesmith, take a chill pill.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 05:55 PM

That's a bit of hubris, there, Tunesmith. You seem to be under the impression that you are the only fair minded, free thinking person here. Yet, you seem to put all your faith (yes, dammit, faith!) in a book (Bible: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin biblia, from Greek, pl. of biblion, book.) you have read(!), insist that others read the book too, and then accuse others of small-mindedness and embracing blind faith when they don't take you as seriously as you would like to be taken. You make a lot of assumptions about a lot of things. I have already read several books on this same subject. They get pretty repetitive after awhile, so I'm not about to waste my time and money reading yet another one.

I can—and, in the past, have—argued from the viewpoint that you are now espousing. I have since matured a bit, and without going into my particular credo, I have learned that in the absence of solid evidence one way or the other, to continue arguing the point is just plain silly. I have also learned that, although much evil has been done by organized religions, is being done now, and undoubtedly will continue to be done in the future, there is a distinct and definite value to be found in religious belief, both on a personal level and in the world at large. Here's a clue: some churches do a great deal of good. I know of several churches of different denominations right here in my neighborhood when the members have adopted as their guiding credo a brief, but all important passage from the book of Matthew.

Brace yourself! Here it comes!

Jesus, whether he existed or not, is reputed to have said:
        "I was hungry, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: I was naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me."
        And they asked him, saying, "Lord, when did you hunger and we fed you? Or thirst, and we gave you drink? When did we see you a stranger and take you in? Or naked and clothe you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?"
        And he answered them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me."

(You didn't really think you could get away without have Scripture quoted at you, did you?)
These churches take this seriously. They run free meal programs (no accompanying sermon), they seek lodging for the homeless, they visit people in hospitals (not to cram the Gospel down their throats when they are lying there helpless, but simply to see if they need anything), they run an Alternatives to Violence program in the prisons (in an effort to decrease recidivism—and violence), and many other truly meaningful and effective social programs. They don't just practice their religion on Sundays, they carry it over into their everyday lives. They walk the walk, and they live the life. I respect these people very highly for what they believe, and especially the integrity they have in acting on their beliefs. These people to a lot of good in the world.

You want to throw out the good with the bad. I find your trashing of religion a bit short-sighted. And, I might add, it shows a disturbing trend toward blind prejudice on your part.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 05:32 PM

Tunesmith, you're not trying to tell your side of an issue, you've set an issue of long controversy loose among a group of people with a history of bitter conflict over it. Its notable that so far, ugliness has not broken out, and it's rather a miracle to have come so far. That's not enough for you-- you seem willing to settle only for complete agreement with your bias. Mudcat ain't like that, and if you don't learn not to do more than simply stir up controversy you'll soon find that very few people want to communicate with you.

~S~

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 04:07 PM

I am trying to tell my side of this debate in a staightforward honest way. The people attacking my argument are simply "muddying the water" with trivia: Shakespeare, Robin Hood and the likes. I honestly believe that if any fairminded person read " The Jesus Mysteries" they would come away with - at the very least - doubts about the existence of the biblical Jesus. I'll finish with a little aside. Folkmusic links us all together, but Christianity - the Irish Catholic version - nearly finished off folkmusic in Ireland less than a hundred years ago and so the next time you listen to Altan, Christy Moore ,or your own personal favourite , remember that. And O Yes,I know, we can't blame Jesus for that!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:55 PM

hystericity, I believe

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:39 PM

Tunesmith, your agenda is a puzzlement to me. More than anything else you come across as a person whose early upbringing was steeped in fundamentalist Christianity and who is still feeling immensely guilty for veering from it. If that isn't the case, I'm curious as to why the historicity (is there such a word?) of Jesus matters to you.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: TIA
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:38 PM

I'm gonna read - if for no other reason than to see why it has poor Tunesmith so worked up.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: jeffp
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:35 PM

Such as yourself?

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:25 PM

Please, please, please. Will any freethinkers out there read the book " The Jesus Mysteries". Don't leave it at a few brief extracts on Amazon, and a review by somebody whose objectivity, or lack of it, is an unknown factor.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 02:51 PM

And furthermore:

Go to Amazon.com, put "The Jesus Mysteries" in the search box, wait for a few seconds, then when the book listing appears, scroll down and read the Publishers Weekly review and check the sample pages. This is about all you really need to know about this book.

This sort of book comes along about every five or ten years and then vanishes from sight. I have also seen television documentaries on this theme on Discovery Channel, Nova, the History Channel, and just about everywhere but on the Trinity Broadcast Network (remember Jimmy and Tammy Faye?). I put this sort of thing in the same category as "who wrote Shakespeare's plays?" Hell! I don't even know for certain that there was a real, historical Shakespeare. Do you know for certain!??

The review says, "The authors postulate that Christianity . . . distilled and usurped the greatest wisdom inherent in pagan traditions. Specifically, they charge that Christianity looted the traditions of the Osiris/Dionysus cults, borrowing, synthesizing and domesticating what was most sacred to Greco-Roman civilization."   Well, of course it did! Ever since the first cave man, startled by a burst of thunder and lightning, asked "Who the hell did that!!???" bodies of religious belief have borrowed from previous bodies of belief and modified them to fit. Standard operating procedure.

It goes on to say, "Freke and Gandy assert that Christian history is 'nothing less than the greatest cover-up of all time. Christianity's original Gnostic doctrines and its true origins in the Pagan Mysteries had been ruthlessly suppressed by the mass destruction of the evidence and the creation of a false history to suit the political purposes of the Roman Church.' The authors compare the revolution of the imperial Christian church (which finally suppressed pagan worship) to the Communist revolution in Russia, arguing that both saw enormous bloodshed and suppression of all dissent." Truly deplorable. But secular leaders have always made use of religion in their effort to wield control over the populace. They're still doing it (see Bush administration). And religious leaders have often tried to use their religious position to attain secular power (see Pope Alexander VI, aka Giovanni Borgia, father of Cesare and Lucrezia).

The review concludes, "This kind of polemic detracts from the usefulness of this study. The book's great tragedy is that many of its most scholarly kernels of insight, such as the authors' discussion of Secret Mark or their tantalizing analysis of the Lazarus material, will be lost to responsible discussion. In sum, this is a disappointing, sensationalist polemic." (© Copyright 2000 Reed Business Information, Inc.)

I recall an English Literature class some decades ago, when the subject came up about those who question the authenticity of Shakespeare's actual authorship of the plays attributed to him. We kicked the subject around for awhile, and decided that although one could never be absolutely sure, it was most probable the Shakespeare actually did write them. Someone asked, "Why do people keep bringing this up?"

"Well," said the prof, " it keeps them off the streets."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 01:47 PM

Tunesmith, you seem to be assuming that everyone who disagrees with your anti-religious tirades do so because they have "blind faith in the existence of Jesus." Or even that they have faith in Jesus at all, blind or otherwise. Some folks here fall into the "unchurched" category and do not center their beliefs on any one person or thing. You're attacking a straw man of your own manufacture. Kinda pointless.

Speaking of "true believers" as someone did above, and also spinning off from Little Hawk's post of 24 Jun 03 - 06:59 PM:— Eric Hoffer, in his excellent book of observations, The True Believer, says that first, the true believer—the fanatic—generally gets that way because he suffers from very low self-esteem and must associate himself with some Cause to give his life meaning. He will always be intensely passionate in espousing that Cause, because that Cause is central to his very life. It is his life. It's his raison d'être. But—second, as passionately as he advocates his Cause, he sometimes does undergo conversion. To another Cause. But no matter what Cause he happens to espouse at the time, he is always fanatical about it. The Nazi becomes a Communist, the Communist converts to fundamentalist Christianity, then he converts to orthodox Judaism, then he converts to a ferocious atheism (or the reverse path, or any combination thereof), and on and on. But no matter what he is at the time, he will beat you about the head and shoulders in the holy name of his Cause. Rational argument has no effect on him. Only something that disenchants him (for some reason it begins failing to feed his sense of self worth) from his Cause du jour, will get him change his mind. To yet another Cause.

Who are you lately?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 01:47 PM

I will finish where I began. I want everyone who has posted messages on this thread in support of a " real Jesus" - as presented in the Bible, to read " The Jesus Mysteries". But the problem with that request is obvious; if a person believes in Jesus - and that belief is central to who they are -, why would they want to read a book that could/would shake that belief. They wouldn't would they? If you believe in Jesus, it must be a matter of faith, and surely to read anything that flies in the face of that faith is .. a betrayal of that faith, and a betrayal of Jesus.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 01:04 PM

Hey, what happened? Half of my post up there disappeared. Oh well.

Robin Hood is supposedly a real bloke named Robin of Locksley.

I agree with Little Hawk, though - even the most pervasive legends are usually rooted, albeit sometimes rather loosely, in documentable historical fact.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: The O'Meara
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 12:23 PM

(1)Tunesmith, I suggest you read the famous "Yes, Virginia" response to a little girl's question about the existence of Santa Claus. It applies as well to the same question about Jesus. (it really is worth digging it up and reading it.)
    (2)It's impossible to prove a negative, so there's no way to prove that Jesus didn't exist. If you really believe that, it must be an act of faith just as is believing he did exist.
    (3) I think you mistakenly blame religion for the evil behavior of humans. In the crusades, for example, the Christian religion was the excuse for slaughtering the Moors, who were a really threat to the established economy of europe. If Christianity didn't exist I'm sure the europeans would have used some other religion.
    (4) I, myself, am an ex-catholic who found the true path in Frisbeterianism. Frisbeterians belive that when you die, your soul sails onto the roof and you can't get it back down again.

O'Meara