BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Yes, Roberto. I already have seen that site, and I have seen the protocols there and I have seen the presence of some of her writing there. Now please show me some evidence that she is a aware of her writings appearing on that site, or that if she is aware of it, that she approved of it, or that she shares any of their ideology or beliefs. I have not seen any of that evidence yet.


Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it.

This is the only organization that I have seen her acknowledge being a part of. If you can produce any evidence that she was also actively participating in, and in agreement with the TerraSantaLibera organization, please present it here. I have repeatedly asked you to present these evidences. You have consistently failed to do so. I have not condemned Ms. Lano yet because you are refusing to provide evidence that I should. When you provide evidence that she is sympathetic with anti-Semites, or that she is an anti-Semite herself, then I will condemn her anti-Semitism. But not before that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM

Antisemitism on the Mudcat?

Note—occasionally I do not qualify the term Mudcat or Mudcatter to indicate that I am only referring to those folks who actually have made the statements here paraphrased. I'm aware that some all those making ant-Israel statements have not expressed every of those sentiments. But the constant use of 'many' or 'some' would necessarily muddle already difficult syntax. My analysis is based on the present thread, and the various similar threads over the past seven or eight years. I am also aware that a few posters have tried to defend Israel in whole or part on a post by post basis (I admire the Quixotic adventure)-JotSC

For over week I've been reading the posts of the usual anti-Israel crowd on the Mudcat. They stress they are only critical of Israel, and piously note they are not anti-Jewish, or God forbid, anti-Semitic. It has even been said that nothing written at this thread is ant-Semitic. Some take care to tell us that we shouldn't vent our opprobrium on Jews as a group...that would wrong. Yes it would be wrong, but mouthing platitudes arem't enough to remove the stench of anti-Semitism which runs through the thread. And worse, many of the same folks who here claim they 'are not anti-Semitic' bemoan the deserved condemnation and resultant firing and retirement of Helen Thomas, whose comments were classic anti-Semitic remarks.
On the 'Cat, Israelis, and only Israelis are are blamed for the violence on the Turkish ship—indeed for all violence between Palestineans and Israelis. While there will be a lot of hand-wringing and interpretation about the exact sequence of events, there, it is instructive to note that no violence took place on any of the other six blockade runners. An honest assessment might consider that something different by the blockade runners occurred on that ship that led to deaths and injuries. But whatever happened, the proximate cause was trying to run the blockade.

As a result of the incident, there is renewed call, here, to deligitimize Israel as a nation, and certainly as a Jewish state. There have been no calls for doing away with North Korea, which periodically shoots down South Korean aircraft, fires on and sinks South Korean vessels, and kidnaps South Korean soldiers or citizens...to say nothing of U S. journalists. There has been no call to deligitimize Somalia for for international piracy, or Sudan for the genocide in Darfur. There was no call to deligitimize Germany for trying to take over Europe, and for initiating World War II. There has never been a call to deligitimize any of the European colonial powers which raped the people and resources of various regions of the world they gathered unto themselves. There are hundreds more examples I could mention, all far worse than anything Israel is alleged to be doing to Palestineans...but only Israel is singled out as needing to be excised from the world.

Israel is said to be undemocratic because it is a Jewish State. This is a straw man...there are no democratic Muslim states if one uses that same criterion which is used to castigate Israel. But there is no call to deligitimize them. Only Israel, the Jewish state!
It is said on Mudcat, that "most Israeli archaeologists and historians" assert that that European Jews have no connection to the Jews of the Near East or to Palestine (as Judea/Israel) itself. First, there only a bare minority (perhaps three or four) question that, and even they don't go so far as to be absolutist about it. Recent archaeological discoveries found in the Holy Land, Egypt and the generalized Middle East, tend to support many aspects of the Jewish history. Second, a simple Google search will find scores of articles which show evidence that Ashkenazi (European) Jews possess genetic and DNA material connecting them to ancient Israel. This also holds for Indian and Chinese Jews. There has been discussion of the Khazars and other European group groups which may have converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages, plus or minus, as proof that European Jews have no connection to Israel. Judaism considers that every convert to Judaism is the same as if s/he had actually been at Sinai. So by blood or by tradition all Jews have a connection to Israel. This is not unlike America (at least before the days of hyphenated Americans); naturalized citizens have every right and obligation, and are part of the history of America, just as same as natural born citizens. The only exception is the ban against becoming President.
The simple fact is that Muslim Arabs do not want a Zionist or Jewish entity within their region. And neither do many who post here. No matter what concessions, Israel has made, from repatriation of prisoners, to the total dismantling of Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, the reciprocal event has been a rocket attack or Intifada most often. But only Israel is blamed for violence!

Several have called for a single state solution for a joint of Israel/Palestine, with absolute equality as between Jews and Palestineans. The modern vision of Israel as a Jewish homeland goes back to earliest Zionism, and was ratified by the League of Nations and the British Mandate (which none-the-less lopped off about 70% of the Mandate to create the Kingdom of Trans-Jordan about 1923). The United Nations created Israel, as well as India, Pakistan, and several other countries subsequent to World War II. While Israel is basically a democracy, it is not exactly congruent to, say, the United States. It was created explicitly to be a homeland for Jews... those already there, and those who wished to immigrate from where ever. Israel is not a theocracy by any stretch of the imagination, anymore than the United States was a theocracy for have Sunday Blue Laws. It is true that some groups would like to see more Bible-based laws enforced, but that has no not occurred. Mudcatters have a problem with the thought of that happening, but have no problem with a score or more of countries which are Islamic Republics and dictatorships which lean heavily on Shaaria Law. Several of those countries are creating far more worldwide problems than Israel has ever done or could ever do to Palestineans, but there is no call to dismantle Iraq, Iran etc. Only Israel! The so-called single state solution would, within a generation or two, dismantle the work of both the League of Nations and the United Nations, and destroy the concept of a Jewish Homeland. Of course, that could even come more quickly if a Grand Mufti or Imam should declare a pogrom (Jihad) against Jewish citizenry.

So, I have reached the following conclusions:
--If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,
--If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,
--If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel,
--If you deny the attachment of Diaspora Jews to the population of ancient Jews,
--If you deny the right of the United Nations to ordain Israel, and only Israel among all the countries created since World War II,
--If you think Israel has forfeited the right to be a Jewish nation,
--If you support a 'single state' solution to end the Israel/Arab confict,
--Then claiming you are not anti-Semitic does not make it so. It just makes you un-self aware at best, or a dissembler at worst.

John on the Sunset Coast

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it. Mariano Mingarelli, leader of infopal.it since its foundation, a very known exponent of the organizations of friendship between Italy and the Palestinian people, resigned from his position as President of infopal.it a few days before the story of the Gaza flotilla stating that too many anti-Semite were in the organization and that he didn't want his name to stay alongside with theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

Ships can and are boarded in international waters.
Many navies are stopping and searching suspected pirates in the Indian Ocean right now, without asking their permission.

Are these ships sailing under the flag of any country?


Remember that arms ship from N Korea a couple of years ago.

The UN authorized the boarding of that ship. And this is what makes it illegal for Israel to board the ships of the flotilla without permission. In order for a blockade to be legal, it must first be approved by the UN Security Council. Israel's blockade of Gaza has not been approved by the UN Security Council. So just the act of boarding the ships of the flotilla in international waters (or even in Gazan waters had it taken place there) was an illegal attack under international law, and the people on the ships being boarded (ships sailing under the flags of several countries, making the ships the sovereign territory of those countries) had the right under international law to defend themselves and their ships and to do whatever it would take to prevent their ships from being boarded.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

A flotilla of 9 ships with 800 passengers is preparing to head for Gaza soon.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM

"I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck."

No you aren't because you are unable to refute whether bullets, rubber or live, or stun grenades were fired at the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

"Yes I have been hit with one.
"Serious soft tissue damage" is hype for a nasty bruise."

Ok then - now imagine that it contains glass and has been fired into your face.

What kind of superficial bruising woould that do to a man?



Hey Keith - Here's a link to a Stun Grenade explosion.

Utterly Stunned

A flash and a bang - a bit like the clip you proviided.

But where did it come from?

Oh yes - Al Jazeeras reporter informed us that there were stun grenades being fired onto the ship.

So that is consistent with your video.

The reporters credibility is STILL intact.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM

"Jim, you can see the soldiers with paintball guns."
You implied that the only weapons that the soldiers had were paint-ball guns - this in not true.
"The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The weapons carried were as I described - they don't send soldiers in with paintball guns and fireworks.
You seems to be confusing all this with a Sealed Knot event.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck.

All of the post from which this quote comes, Keith, is speculation. And you are not in a position to say who started it because you do not know what happened before that first Israeli boarded the ship.

We do have evidence that the Israelis opened fire first. You have nothing except what the government of Israel has said, and it has already been proven that quite a lot of what they have said about what happened is lies. So you are choosing to believe proven liars with no evidence to back it up. That's fine, just don't try to pretend that you are doing anything other than that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.

I asked you to show me evidence that the woman whose writings appear on the page of the group you are saying is anti-Semitic even knows that her writing has appeared there. You have not answered my request. She writes for a different organization than the one that you are saying is anti-Semitic. So far, I have not seen any evidence that she actually writes for the anti-Semitic group or that she is even aware that her material appears on their pages or if she is aware of it, that she approves of it. Or that she is in any way in sympathy with their agenda or beliefs. And I have been in consultation with someone in Italy and asked this person to see if they could see any evidence of it, and they could not. So if you have any evidence that the woman whose writing you are talking about has knowledge that her writing appears on the website of an anti-Semitic group, or that she approves of or is in sympathy with what they say and do, please present it here now.

The United States Constitution regularly appears on neo-Nazi hate sites here in the US. That doesn't make the United States Constitution a neo-Nazi hate document.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

"The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks."
Paintball guns - fireworks - what has the Israeli army come to?
Monty Python would have a field day!
You have a list of the weapons carried by the Israeli Army and you have their track record for brutality - on what grounds do you "don't believe" (apart from the logic of an army sending in unarmed troops - that is)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.

Roberto, you started the nasty insults when you started committing character assassination against people here in this thread by accusing them of anti-Semitism. If you don't like getting what you dish out, don't dish it out.

I have no problem with a two state solution, as long as neither state tries to maintain any artificial majorities based on religion or ethnicity. But whether or not I support this is irrelevant because it's just not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSmSqZce3k

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.

This is what exists in Israel now and what Israel is enforcing in occupied Palestine, and what you defend when you defend the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:57 AM

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM

I got this backwards so I will rephrase:

It's a lot easier to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Clearly this is not true, Roberto. You have been working very hard to paint me as an anti-Semite.

I admit that there are ideas that are different from mine that are just as legitimate. But discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.

Are you saying this is done all the time in international waters?

The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.

You are not in a position to say this because you do not have video that shows what happened before the scene to which you are referring. You only have an absence of video confirming the witness testimony and the announcement of wounded passengers prior to the Israelis boarding the ship. But we do have quite a lot of witness testimony as well as the announcement of wounded passengers before the ship was boarded.

Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.

If someone doesn't want to be hit with a metal bar, all they have to do is not stand in range of it. The range of a metal bar is only a few feet. This is not the case with a paint pellet filled with glass that is fired at your face by someone who is standing a safe distance away from you. It's a lot harder to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.

I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.

I note the word "believe" in that statement, Keith. So you admit that you are only going on belief rather than on evidence.

It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.

They were not thrown up from the boat. They were fired from the boat.

Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.

You've got to be kidding me. There were many boats along side of all of the ships the whole time. You have no evidence that that video was taken before the boarding. You're just going on belief. But it really doesn't matter whether it was or not. We have witness testimony and evidence that backs it up that the Israelis attacked the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

"They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth."

Within their own jurisdiction.

"The IDF has boarded many vessels"

Yes.

"This one made the news because of the violence."

The others were extremely violent too - its just that noone was killed with live ammo.

"The video shows who started it."

Yes - the soldiers who committed a hostile act by boarding it in international waters armed to the teeth.

"Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands."

Ever been shot with a paintball?

What about witht the right protective gear?

What about if it has glass in it?

"I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol."

Are you saying that the IDF got it wrong about that too?

I'll be back

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Sorry, I left out to whom I'm replying: CarolC.

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Roberto, If you look back through the mudcats extensive discussions on Israel, I don't think you will find any advocates of a one state solution.

Certainly as far as I am aware, all the main players in the debate on this thread advocate a two state solution.

I personally believe the solution is for Israel to accept that they should withdraw to within the pre 1967 borders.

Though I understand the fear of Hamas.

As I understand it, most of the debate on here is about whether or not this solution would work, whether there is a historical justification for those borders as opposed to oters, and whether or not The Israelis or the palestinians are sincere in their wish to find a solution and stick to it once it has been found.


There is no innocent party in modern day Israel/Palestine.


Palestinians see Israel annexng more land in the form of settlements and humiliating them for seemingly gratuitous reasons.

Israelis see Palestinians as being full of Hate for Jews and wanting to destroy Israel.


2 solutions would be for Israel to stop expanding and for Palestinian extremists to stop firing rockets into Israel.


But who will take the first step?


Well - Israel is meant to be on our team - the allies - and they are funded by Britisjh and American Tax dollars and pounds which makes Me complicit in their actions if I don't publicly disagree.

Hamas do not claim to represent me or my ideology nor do they receive any funding from me.

So I know where the focus of my disssatisfaction has to be.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.
The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.
It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.
Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.
After 3 minutes the firing started and the demonstrators were ordered by their commander to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.

Roberto, you're the one who started the insults when you started flinging around the old "anti-Semite" canard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.

It is difficult for me to think that a person with even less than normal ability to perceive reality would actually think that a state that artificially maintains a majority of one particular religion or ethnicity can in any way be described as a "democracy" or that it could ever be a peaceful arrangement.

I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments.

I am not doing that. I am merely predicting what is going to happen. Just the way it happened in South Africa. And it certainly is appropriate to make such comparisons. Even South Africans say what exists right now in Palestine/Israel is apartheid, and many of them say it is far worse than the apartheid that was experienced in South Africa.

I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area.

You are not in a position to tell me what I have in mind and what I don't have in mind. What I have in mind is a country like all of the countries in the West, in which everyone has equal rights and citizenship is not dependent upon anyone's religion or ethnicity.

It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.

You keep accusing people of anti-Semitism, as you are doing just above. You're the one who has started the gratuitous attacks. If you can't tolerate the idea of a state in which Jews do not artificially maintain a permanent majority and in which everyone has exactly the same rights and citizenship is not in any way tied to anyone's religion or ethnicity, then you are a racist.

And you even are insinuating that because I believe that everyone in Palestine/Israel should have equal rights, that means I am advocating for all Jews to be killed. This is not only a specious lie, it is also quite an insane way to interpret what I have said.

I believe in equal rights for all. I don't believe anyone's rights should be dependent upon which religion or ethnic group they belong to. You think that some groups should be privileged over other groups and some should be denied citizenship if they don't belong to the correct group. This makes you not only a racist, but also a supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:03 AM

I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.

I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.

My guess would be that they're recruiting him for the hasbara brigade; getting him officially in the loop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area. I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments. I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area. There is also a right wing in Israel whose aim is to rule the whole area (Eretz Israel). In my opinion, the two states solution has no alternative if we also want to stop the killings. I'm not sure for democracy, because it is not in Hamas culture, let's hope for Fatah's evolutions (in the times of Arafat, there was no democracy where he ruled). It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.

The Israelis did not have permission to board. It is highly illegal and considered an attack in maritime law to board anyone's vessel without permission, especially if the people on board are making it very clear that they do not want to be boarded.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.

I stand by this. But it has nothing whatever to do with what I expect to happen when the present regime in Israel is dismantled.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

Roberto, I was answering a question from someone else who phrased it in that way. Maybe it was you. I do not expect Israel to be "handed to the Palestinians". I expect it to simply join Palestine and become a state for all of its citizens with citizenship not being conditional upon anyone's religion or ethnicity. The fact that you are glomming on to this one answer to someone else's question while ignoring all of the times that I have stated it as it is stated above is extremely dishonest, and is further evidence that it's your own racism that is preventing you from being able to entertain the possibility of Palestinians being able to have equal rights in Palestine/Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:36 AM

Apart from the eye-witness and press reports after the boarding which carried the above information, there's a certain crassness in the suggestion that the Israeli commanders (of one of the most belligerantly aggressive armies in the world) would send in troops armed only with paint-ball guns.
Tell us you're 'avin' a larf Keef!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?

First of all, there is no way to know that this footage was taken before the Israelis boarded. This video doesn't show any of that. You are taking the Israeli government's word that it happened that way with no evidence to back it up. Secondly, the stun grenade is being thrown back to the Israeli boat. The only reason anyone on the Mavi Marmara had any stun grenades at all is because the Isralis fired them at the Mavi Marmara in the first place. So that answers your question of who is attacking whom.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM

Keith, the paint ball pellets were filled with glass fragments. The people who were hit with the paint pellets sustained severe soft tissue injuries. And you can quite clearly see the guy in the last video I posted firing his gun. You can see the recoil. And the passenger in question did end up dead, with several bullets in his chest and head. You can also quite clearly see the two Israelis kicking someone who was on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.

Roberto, there is not a chance in hell that Hamas would be ruling Palestine/Israel if it were a state for all of its citizens and citizenship is not conditional on religion or ethnicity. And this is why I am not concerned about Hamas when I say that Israel should be a country for all of its citizens and that citizenship should not be conditional on any religion or ethnicity.

Hamas didn't even get a majority of the vote among Palestinians. They only got a plurality. There no way that it would get a majority of the vote if all of the people who in what is now Israel would also be voting.

You just keep framing it as if I believe that Hamas would be ruling the country because your own racism doesn't allow you to tolerate the idea of Israel being a country for all of its citizens and for citizenship not to be conditional on one's religion or ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

The fairy tale
"IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The facts.
"Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns."
Now - who was attacked and who did the attacking?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Roberto,

Thanks again.

I have to confess that I too am sceptical about the idea that Hamas are to be trusted.

But as Gerald Kaufman also said, "they are the only game in town", meaning that if there are to be negotiations, Hamas can't be ignored.

However, I respect Carols assessment on the basis that Hamas, for all their ugly menace, are at least transparent about their intentions.

Their official line is more hardline than their behind the scenes stuff.

Their behind the scenes stuff is more about deal making and their on the sleeve stuff is about war.


I haven't engaged in the debates about who broke what ceasefires first the way that other mudcatters have, but I can say that Carol is pretty honest and advocates a clear, consistent and well supported view, as does her #1 opponent Bearded Bruce.



I do note however that while Israels official line is that they seek a fair and peaceful resolution, their unofficial backroom stuff seems to be about building more controversial settlements and about slandering their opponents.


I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.


I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.


Well once you have been given 'the lowdown' on how 'they' operate and the tactics 'they' use, feel welcome to post freely and expresss your opinion on the mudcat just as I do, Bobad does and Carol does without restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:49 AM

"It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses."

I see?

on buses eh?

I can't remember the last time I was on a privately chartered bus that was stormed by soldiers against the will of the passengers on board ...

... It clearly happens to you a lot though.


Lets pretend for the sake of this discussion that you never made such a ... comment.


OK - Its a regular occurrence at sea ... for soldiers to abseil onto civilian ships in international waters ...

nope ... still not sounding very regular to me ...


In fact this is a pretty outstanding affair.

That must be why its in the news.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:38 AM

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.
The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence.
They endured nearly 3 minutes before a round was fired.
That shows unusual restraint.
The IDF did not attack, they merely landed.
Each in turn was met with extreme violence.
They were attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM

Roberto, I have sent you a message via PM.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

Keith, your videos both show the passengers of a ship fighting off a boarding party.

That is called defence.

If they had boarded the Israeli boats that would be called aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM

"The IDF attacked the ship."

In what way is this not true?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

Lox, while we are discussing old posts, you posted this.

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

Please look at the clips I posted today, and withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:45 AM

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM

Roberto, You said:

"These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to"

I used my 'Find' button on my web browser to look for the two quotes you have attributed to carol as having been made in this thread.

It found both quotes.

But only one of them in a previous post by Carol, the other was only in a previous post by you.

The one which exists only in your posts is: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people".

Which means that Carol can't have said that in this thread.

___________

The other quote ...

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

... didn't read as Carols personal opinion of what might happen, but appeared to be her report of the likely viewpoint of Palestinians with whom she is in contact, as the whole post began with the following ...

"number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine ... etc ..."


I am sure Carol will clarify her position on this when she comes back online.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM

That last for Lox not Roberto.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM

4th June 11.24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

bobad, I'd appreciate if you would explain to me where you think I made words say more or something different than they actually mean.