BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:18 AM

Done and dusted at 05.51am yesterday, Keith. Keep your 'air on. Just 'cos you don't like it doesn't mean I didn't say it.

Worry not, Jim. I'm not embarking on that old WWI argument. Just illustrating with an particularly egregious example of Keith's dissembling why nothing he ever says can be trusted. I suppose we all know that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM

"The contention of both Keith A, myself and others, was that that was not true and no German officer ever said that, you and your pals were of the opinion that the quote was factual. After his book had been published and Clark was challenged on this supposed quote, Clark himself admitted that he had just made it up. Now if that is not predicating an argument on a falsehood then I do not know what is."

Oh please, Teribus. You appear to have caught Keithitis. Never in my life have I claimed that that quote was "factual." Also, arguing that the fighting forces were not well-led, even if that phrase was brought into the argument, would not be predicating the argument on a falsehood. It's a colourful phrase that some would contend has a grain of truth about the situation in the war, even if the bloke who said it was lying about its origin. It is a point of view expressed in metaphorical terms that many people hold. Suppose there was an "A" Level question like this: "It has been stated that the British forces in WW1 were lions led by donkeys. Discuss." Would that be an invalid question?

I must commend you for admitting after all this time that Keith made a mistake. Did he sanction your confession, and are you now going to get him to admit to it himself? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:34 AM

Easily resolved Jim.
Let Steve produce the misquotes he accuses me of.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:38 AM

For crying out loud lads - I'm not one to complain about "thread drift" but WW*******1.
We know who tells lies and we know who are the first to accuse others of doing so (one and the same)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:37 AM

Steve, you have produced something from a 2014 thread, but nothing from this thread to support your false accusations.
Here they are again, in case you forgot.

Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time.

Then produce one. Do not just refer to it as if it was true, produce it.

and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread.

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE THE MISQUOTE!!

You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made,

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Confident prediction, none will be produced.
It is all just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM

"I may be a bombastic, uncompromising leftie pillock, but I can't ever see the point of predicating arguments on falsehoods."

Really Steve? The Wheatcroft thing, IIRC one of the points under discussion was Alan Clark's "The Donkeys" and his use of the infamous and totally fictional quote attributed to an extremely senior German Staff Office in which he was supposed to have commented that the British Army were, "Lions led by Donkeys". The contention of both Keith A, myself and others, was that that was not true and no German officer ever said that, you and your pals were of the opinion that the quote was factual. After his book had been published and Clark was challenged on this supposed quote, Clark himself admitted that he had just made it up. Now if that is not predicating an argument on a falsehood then I do not know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 03:09 AM

Steve Shaw - 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

Just an example of you dancing on the head of a pin Steve. It served your purposes to divert from the content of the thread which was about the First World War in which you and your pals were being hammered by fact after fact that none of you could counter, your other tactic back in those days was after it became obvious that you had lost the historical argument you did everything you could to get the thread closed.

And if I remember it correctly Keith A after having quoted the passage in full correctly, the first time the article was drawn to our attention, he then inadvertently mixed the "vulgar" and the "fraudulent". Most reasonable people would know by what he had said previously that an honest mistake had been made, everyone else having read the previous post knew exactly what he meant. In the past you and your pals have made more than enough of the same sort of errors - yet for some weird reason you give yourselves a free pass on them, wonder why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:09 PM

By the way, forum and the world in general, I may be a lot of things, doubtless some of them bad, but I never tell lies. I may be a bombastic, uncompromising leftie pillock, but I can't ever see the point of predicating arguments on falsehoods. I invite anyone here, both pro-Steve and anti-Steve, to investigate the things I've said about Keith's lack of truthfulness. Admittedly, it can take some effort in digging up old threads, and I'd never expect anyone to have the energy or motivation to do it. I can do no more than refer you to the points made by me in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

My God, Keith, how you wriggle and struggle. Do you think that everyone here is so thick that they can't see what you're doing? Have you no friends who can help you out here, have a word in your shell-like? You are an incredibly sad case, old chap. If I wasn't such a confounded bloody heathen, Keith, I think I'd be praying for you. Tough shit. No such prayers coming in your direction from me. Maybe I'll sacrifice a dead sausage on the barbie in your honour instead. You'll have to manage with whatever prayerfulness bobad can provide, but I have a feeling that the good Lord liveth not in his abode...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:43 PM

""Irish stand down" is a type of traditional bare knuckle fighting where the aspect of maneuvering around the ring is removed,
leaving only the less nuanced aspects of punching and "taking" punches.
This form of combat was popular in Irish American ghettos in the United States in the late 19th century
but was eclipsed in the Irish American community first by bare knuckle boxing and then later by regulation boxing.
The Irish stand down is also known as strap fighting or toe to toe."

.. round one hundred and seventy six...!!!

.. the few remaining spectators are starting to inch further away closer to refreshment wagon..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

Wheatcroft dismissed both works using two derogatory words.
Having quoted them both originally, I did not need to keep doing so.

Steve has tried the same false accusation on many threads now.
Every time that his case is knocked down and he has nothing else.

Steve can not produce any of the misquotes he accused me of making on this thread.
He can't.
He lied.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

Oh dear. And then you said he said they were both "fraudulent." See above. He didn't. I proved that you said he said it and I proved that he never said it. What more can a chap do. Do you see it now, Keith? A misquote by any measure you like, saying that he said they were both "fraudulent" when he actually said nothing of the sort. It doesn't matter what you said in your other posts. In that post you were badly wrong. You see, Keith, this is your problem. When confronted with the stark reality you simply can't take it on board. A very bad character trait, and the reason we can't trust a single thing you ever say. What a way to live, Keith. It would be nice to be not called a liar by a liar when I'm telling the whole truth, by the way. Face it, Keith. you've made yourself a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:32 AM

RE: WWI, was No-Man's Land
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:55 PM

Yesterday's Guardian.

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about "lions led by donkeys", that nevertheless made a mark.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM

I'll take this one too, to extend my coverage on claiming 666, in case of thread 'adjustments'..

Though if Keith slipping in there, grabs it from under my nose...????

oh well..

..and here's me doing my good deed of the day to help protect any christian posters from the number of the beast...

..and I don't mean Boris.. 😇

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 10:08 AM

Steve can not produce any of the misquotes he accused me of making here.
He lied.

I made the post he just quoted from 2014, but I had already linked to and quoted the relevant passage in full.
I did not quote it in full every time I referred to it.
So I did not misquote in 2014, and all his accusations of me misquoting here are lies.
He tries to smear me because he can not challenge anything I have actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:36 AM

.. or that one.. or this one...

[insurance post in case Steve's duplicate is tidied up... 🙄]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:31 AM

ps.. that last contribution of mine was post number 666....😈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 09:16 AM

Keith - This is like one of those old time bare knuckle fights which lasted for far too many rounds, never an end in sight...
.. until the last stubborn dazed and confused pugilist remained standing a triumphant few seconds
before he also collapsed exhausted into welcome oblivion..... 😜

.. I reckon any Labour Party inquiries will be long time completely done and dusted,
while you are still repeating the same old loop of accusations and denials here in this thread...????


Btw.. this is actually a new experience that we all have to adjust to, not having a thread closed or deleted
while grudge matches are still fuming, not yet on the wane.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

OK, one more time, Keith, for the delectation and entertainment of anyone left here still reading.

What Keith said in the thread "I'm not an historian, but..." on 16.12.2014 at 12.59:

"The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as 'fraudulent'."

What Geoffrey Wheatcroft actually wrote in his Guardian article "The Myth of the Good War" on 9.12.2014, and what Keith was referring to:

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about 'lions led by donkeys', that nevertheless made a mark."

Note, good people, Keith's use of quote marks there. A perfect example of how Keith "modifies" his quoting in order to fit his agenda. In the very next post I challenged Keith's version. For weeks afterwards, as you can see if you bother to read the thread, he refused to accept that he had misrepresented Wheatcroft in his post. Unbelievable, eh? Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:30 AM

OK, one more time, Keith, for the delectation and entertainment of anyone left here still reading.

What Keith said in the thread "I'm not an historian, but..." on 16.12.2014 at 12.59:

"The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as 'fraudulent'."

What Geoffrey Wheatcroft actually wrote in his Guardian article "The Myth of the Good War" on 9.12.2014, and what Keith was referring to:

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about 'lions led by donkeys', that nevertheless made a mark."

Note, good people, Keith's use of quote marks there. A perfect example of how Keith "modifies" his quoting in order to fit his agenda. In the very next post I challenged Keith's version. For weeks afterwards, as you can see if you bother to read the thread, he refused to accept that he had misrepresented Wheatcroft in his post. Unbelievable, eh? Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 08:00 AM

Wither the Labour Party. 😜😜😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

"Produce it," Keith? I've produced everything I've caught you doing over and over again. That latest post of yours is just you making a complete fool of yourself. Read my post again. It's all there, and it's all in the threads down the years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

And I think you should be ashamed of yourself. You cheated everyone on this board by being both bobad and an anonymous, name-calling Guest. Your "humour" is misplaced. Maybe Keith's laughing, who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM

I think the thread title should be changed to "Wither the Labour Party". 😜😜😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:18 AM

Steve, you again post lots of accusations but nothing to back them.
If I have misquoted anyone, produce it!
Do not just refer to it as if it was true, PRODUCE IT!

. In this thread you misquoted Jackie Butler by leaving relevant parts of her remarks out in a clear attempt to make what she said look worse than it was. It's all up there in the thread.

Produce it then!

Wheatcroft?
You can not deny that I had quoted Wheatcroft accurately and in full back in 2014.
No need to misquote because he supported my case. That is why I quoted him, accurately and in full.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:51 AM

Well now, Teribus wades in with his "secret suspensions" angle. Google "Labour secret suspensions", or "Labour 50 suspensions", what do you get? No, really try it! The Daily Torygraph and a bunch of references to the Israeli press bigging up the "secrecy," or something in the Sun. Isn't it amazing how the "secret" didn't last! You see, Teribus, there is a difference between, on the one hand, doing a big secret conspiratorial cover-up thing and, on the other hand, not shouting names from the rooftops of people who are being investigated but not yet shown to be guilty of anything. The Labour Party has recognised that there is an issue and is taking action to investigate it and ultimately root out anyone shown to be guilty. I call that highly responsible. The Catholic Church has been riddled with antisemitism for centuries. Do you think we need an enquiry then? What about the Tories? UKIP? Who's being responsible?

You want examples of your misquotes, Keith? Geoffrey Wheatcroft wrote about AJP Taylor's book being rather vulgar and Clark's being largely fraudulent. You very helpfully " interpreted" that for us by telling us that he'd said they were both fraudulent. That's what you said, in one of your posts. You refused to correct this serious misrepresentation over and over again. In fact, you told us it was OK because you'd quoted the quote elsewhere and in any case were "only speaking generally." In other words, it's fine to lie in one place as long as you tell the truth in another. Well I call that totally unreliable and untrustworthy behaviour, and I won't drop it until you acknowledge the error, after which I'll never mention it again. In this thread you misquoted Jackie Butler by leaving relevant parts of her remarks out in a clear attempt to make what she said look worse than it was. It's all up there in the thread. I took you to pieces on that and, again, you failed to acknowledge your error. You tried to bracket me with people who I said are ardently pro-Israel by omitting "ardently," a clear misrepresentation. This is what you do, and we spend half the bloody time not debating with you but telling you to tell the truth. You lied over and over again this thread about EU "antisemitism guidelines" that are no such thing, but Keith dearly loves them and wants them to be real, but the only "proof" he could provide was that an internal EU quango was still using them unofficially, a setup that is "advised" by a whole bunch of pro-Israel lobby groups. And to cap it all you enthusiastically ally yourself to the most fraudulent bigot on this board. You seriously need to sort yourself out, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:00 AM

"I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members."
Of course you "have to say" that;'s the kind of feller you are.

I said it because it is an indisputable fact.

Apparently you have to produce no proof, that's the kind of feller you are too

I did produce proof, in the form of actual quotes of senior Labour members stating that Labour has a problem with antisemitism.

Now, what about those "misquotes" Jim?
You were just lying because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

What about those "misquotes" Jim.
Can you produce one?
No you can't.
Just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:29 AM

"What exactly is the basis for your statement that "there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members""

I have heard it often from comrades who appear to be perfectly reasonable on most other political issues.

To resolve the problem one must use pragmatism.......the "liberal left" is not noted for this virtue, they are ideologically programmed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM

"So what were 50 members suspended for? What are they under investigation for by the Labour Party compliance unit?"
I would have though that obvious - even to you - an accusation has been made and is in need of investigation?
I would have been irresponsible to have done otherwise.
No problems with investigations - I wonder how many members of the Tory Party would be under investigation in the unthinkable situation of their having such an enquiry.
The right is the traditional home of Antisemitism (6 million witnesses attest to this fact).
Anti-Semitic Tories were putting together a provisional government for when "Herr Hitler" won the day while the people of Britain were huddled in their air-raid shelters.   
As they say - "home is where the heart is"
"I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members."
Of course you "have to say" that;'s the kind of feller you are.
Apparently you have to produce no proof, that's the kind of feller you are too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM

So what were 50 members suspended for? What are they under investigation for by the Labour Party compliance unit? Or do the usual suspects really believe that the 50 suspended members were the subjects of a smear campaign mounted by Keith A of Hertford or bobad?

Mr Shaw your questions should be directed towards the Compliance Unit of the Labour Party, not members of this forum who are only reading the news as it unfolds. Care to explain why the suspension of these 50 members was carried out in secret? I mean if the leadership truly believed the charges to be groundless why opt for this total lack of transparency?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:45 AM

I have said that Labour has a problem with antisemitism, according to many senior members.

That is an indisputable fact, and because you can not challenge it, you resort to personal smears as usual.

Jim,
You have been misquoting throughout

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Steve,
Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time.

Then produce one. Do not just refer to it as if it was true, produce it.

I exposed you over Geoffrey Wheatcroft, one of the most shameful episodes of persistent lying ever seen on this forum,

You claimed it back in 2014, but you can not deny that I had quoted Wheatcroft accurately and in full. No need to misquote because he supported my case. That is why I quoted him, accurately and in full.

and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread.

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE THE MISQUOTE!!

You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made,

Again, if that is not another lying smear, PRODUCE A MISQUOTE!!

Confident prediction, none will be produced.
It is all just lying smears because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:02 AM

Do you have the slightest evidence for this statement or is it your suggestion that anybody who champions Palestine is automatically 'Antisemitic'?
There is no evidence at present that anybody under scrutiny in the Labour Party ia guilty of Antisemitism and all the usual suspect here have come up with are innuendos generated, beyond a shred of doubt, by the Israeli propaganda machine - they are traceable back to Pro-Israeli propaganda organisations.
It seems you are a willing supporter of that Pro-Israeli propaganda.
You have now weighed in with exactly the same sort of innuendo.
What exactly is the basis for your statement that "there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members" - do you have any evidence on this and are you going to offer any of that evidence to any enquiry to be held - of course you haven't and you certainly aren't going to offer it here.
If more evidence were needed that this whole thing has been generated by pro-Israel propaganda, you have just given it - "championing the cause of the Palestinian people" - "shamelessly abused by their own successive leadership" - " and Global political groupings," - the very language of propaganda.
Many thanks for putting this whole issue exactly where it belonged from the beginning, the Labour Party Vs Antisemitism should read 'the progressive people of Britain vs Israeli Apartheid regime's propaganda.
For all its faults and flaws, The Labour Party was created by the working people of Britain to protect its rights and better its conditions - it is little wonder that you have joined the side you have in this squalid bovver-boy kicking match.
As for being rude to Keith - perhaps you might like the total number of times he has used the term "liar" to describe members of this forum over the last couple of weeks - another candidate for the Guinness Book of Records.
I'm off to visit another thread now where, I have little doubt, there will be additions, if not yet, shortly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:13 AM

You two certainly are your own cheerleaders.
Try addressing the serious points being made without the abusive insulting tone.

Seems to me that there is a twisted anti-Semitism amongst many of the Labour Party members who have invested most of their political lives in championing the cause of the Palestinian people......the truth seems to me that the Palestinians have been shamelessly abused by their own successive leadership AND Global political groupings, who's interests have been advanced by continuing the dispute.

The whole issue could and should have been brought to a conclusion decades ago.......Anti-Semitism is a symptom of years of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:00 PM

Can't argue with that, Steve.

Be well,

G.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM

Very true,Greg, very true. But these guys, who set the tone for this forum, are actually easy meat. The Keith/bobad axis has never got a leg to stand on. Their modus operandi is to lie and misrepresent. I mean, bobad, as we all know too well, is a rather brainless forum cheat, but Keith...ah, Keith... Well, he's solidly in bed with bobad, having defended him several times, in spite of his slurs and his utter hypocrisy and cowardice in assuming a second, secret identity with which to attack decent people. We already know about bobad, who is a shallow, mindless,cheating bigot, but Keith? Well, Keith can define himself as far as I'm concerned. The rest of us can define him by his shallow friends, his Israel sycophancy and the dishonest nonsense he invariably posts here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:14 PM

I don't need to give it up, Greg. My skull is steel-lined.....

Yeah, Steve, but is it worth your time?

You can't cure stupid, and you can't educate pork.

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:44 PM

Keith, you deliberately misquote all the time. I exposed you over Geoffrey Wheatcroft, one of the most shameful episodes of persistent lying ever seen on this forum, and you did it again over Jackie Walker in this thread. You want to believe in the alleged Labour antisemitism so you prune and trim the quotes to make it look as bad as possible and yiu keep it going for week after week after week. I demonstrated precisely what you do way up this thread, there for all to see. You ascribe statements to people that they haven't made, anything to twist things round to your bigoted agenda. If you had any decency at all about you, and had even the slightest regard for your own integrity, you would disown that dishonest forum cheat who is your only ally, but you are silent about that. Speaks volumes. Your only friend is a man who scurrilously calls decent people antisemites and Jew-haters and who is known for hiding behind a secret second identity. But you're perfectly happy to have him supporting you. Well that leaves us in no doubt whatsoever as to what kind of man you are, and it isn't nice.

I don't need to give it up, Greg. My skull is steel-lined, I have the hide of a rhino and I can get very bloody-minded when I want to be, especially when confronted with blatant dishonesty and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:04 PM

Accusing members of this forum of Anti-Antisemitism is as smeary as it gets

Hah.......this from someone who is quick to scream Islamophobe at members.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

"If that is not another lie, produce it Jim."
You have been misquoting throughout - particularly by claiming that people regard there to be a problem when they can't possibly know if their is one until an enquiry has been held
Do not call me a lair at a time when yours are choking you - here and elsewhere.
I really don't need to tell lies - you have consistently destroyed your own case, again, here and elsewhere.
Your kneekjerk reaction to facts is to call me a liar - that's infantile
That's simply not true - you have done so for as long as I can remember, quite often with a question mark "antisemitism"
Your squalid running mate can't stop himself even though he knows it's antisemitic to do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:27 PM

Correction - should read "misquoted"

If that is not another lie, produce it Jim.

Accusing members of this forum of Anti-Antisemitism is as smeary as it gets - you do it all the time.

I never have, except that I identified Richard's comment about Jewish influence as antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM

"I have just quoted prominent Labour people."
Correction - should read "misquoted"
"I have not smeared or even accused any individual."
Accusing members of this forum of Anti-Antisemitism is as smeary as it gets - you do it all the time.
"Keith, the more they're trying to whitewash the anti-semitism the deeper the hole they're digging for themselves"
And the more you accuse critics of Israel of being Anti-Semitic, the more Anti-Semitic you become.
Who has attacked the Jewish peole here on this thread (answer - with quotes or be exposed as a liar)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:35 PM

I have not smeared or even accused any individual.
I have just quoted prominent Labour people.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM

You can't keep smearing people then refusing to back up your claims.

Why sure they can, Steve! That's what they've always done - with BeardedBozo, TeriToon and one or two others joining in the chorus from time to time. Same old same old.

Give it up - your head's getting bloody from being beaten against that brick wall of stupidity, ignorance and general pig-headedness.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
You know bloody well that you believe the claims otherwise you wouldn't have been prattling on about them for week after week.

I said I believe the claims.
I said, "It is my opinion that all those high profile Labour people would not make up their claims of antisemitism.
I do now believe that Labour has a serious problem with it, but only because of the testimony of all those people in a position to know, which I readily admit I am not."

What grounds do you have for dismissing their claims Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

"Keith, the more they're trying to whitewash the anti-semitism the deeper the hole they're digging for themselves. Clearly they have to deny it otherwise they would have to admit to it themselves as they adhere to the same views."

What views, please? And who are "they" that adhere to these views, that is, are antisemites? Let's have a full list of names, please, and let's have evidence from any our quotes that we're antisemitic. You weren't courageous enough to post openly when you were being a dishonest, cheating Guest poster with two identities for cover, so let's see if you're brave enough now to give us your full list of forum antisemites, with backup of course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 10:00 AM

I am whitewashing nothing and denying nothing. If you think, either of you, that anyone in the Labour Party has shown themselves to be an antisemite by dint of something they have said, I want to know from you exactly who and precisely what you think was antisemitic about what they said. You can't keep smearing people then refusing to back up your claims. And please don't lie to us yet again telling us with a shrug that it isn't you, you're just the messenger boy, etc. You know bloody well that you believe the claims otherwise you wouldn't have been prattling on about them for week after week. Either you can do what I'm asking or you're making up stuff as you go along, or you're frightened of getting sued for defamation or something, who knows why you're both being so cowardly about it. As a matter of fact, the "serious problem" for Labour is being kept on the boil only by bigots like you two - actually, Labour is showing itself to be highly responsible in the way it is investigating the allegations. I suggest you both stop moaning about it and wait for the outcome of the enquiries. Which you'll doubtless tell us were a big fix. *Yawn*

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM

Keith, the more they're trying to whitewash the anti-semitism the deeper the hole they're digging for themselves. Clearly they have to deny it otherwise they would have to admit to it themselves as they adhere to the same views.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM

Steve,
. I asked for your OPINIONS, not your "assertions".

It is my opinion that all those high profile Labour people would not make up their claims of antisemitism.
I do now believe that labour has a serious problem with it, but only because of the testimony of all those people in a position to know, which I readily admit I am not.

So where in your statement does it say "alleged antisemitism?"

So where in any of their statements does it say "alleged antisemitism?"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:03 AM

I want you to stop telling lies. I asked for your OPINIONS, not your "assertions". You need to stop relaying other people's assertions as if you were a shrugging Pontius Pilate clone, and start thinking for yourself.

"What antisemitism?" - "None, Steve..."

So what does this mean, then, Keith?

"No. It shows that he knows of antisemitism that Corbyn has done nothing about."

"None," eh? So where in your statement does it say "alleged antisemitism?" Your statement clearly indicates that the antisemitism, to your mind, is a fact. So I ask you again. IN YOUR OPINION, who are these Labour antisemites and precisely what did they say that was antisemitic? Stop kidding us, Keith. You believe that this antisemitism exists. You've been babbling on about Labour's "problem" for weeks. So it's about time you came clean and told us WHAT YOU THINK. I've told you what I think - that it's a concerted ploy to tarnish a party with a left-wing leader. That, like any organisation, including your Church and the Tories, there will be a few rotten apples. There will also be people who need educating in how to watch their mouths. But Labour is not an antisemitic party. And don't lie to us by telling us that Corbyn is "doing nothing." There is a damn sight more going on in Labour to investigate and root out alleged antisemitism than in all the smugly-watching organisations that you favour combined.