BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 04:09 AM

"!A perfect example of how the press dupes the gullible!"
Quite agree Bobad; that's truely appalling.
How dare the Independent forget to mention that there are between 500 and 700 Palestinian children in military custody at the present time.
That's the press for you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:43 AM

It' is also worth remembering that while there were about 6million Jews killed in the Holocaust, there were about 5 million non-Jews. My sister lives near Bergen-Belson and I have spent many hours there reflecting on what happened. But it saddens me that you have to leave the site and walk off down a path into a separate area to find the memorial to all the Soviet prisoners killed there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:23 PM

So Corbyn is a very wicked devil of a man now because he hasn't yet replied to an invite...!!!??..


f@ck me that's pathetically desperate...!!!!!


Yeah.. he's up to his neck in elections and fending off malicious attacks, let alone all the usual day to day business of running the opposition party..

.. yet he'a swine now for not dropping everything to fly half way round the world just to attend a symbolic PR photo opportunity...???? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:15 PM

Well, anonymous Guest-troll aka "bobad," I'm a person of the left and I've been to several Holocaust memorials. I shed tears in the Holocaust museum in Prague as I
read as many of the 80,000 names on the walls as I could. We weren't allowed to take pictures but I do have photos of the Jewish cemetery close by. I could send you some. I suppose it's antisemitic to decline an invite to a Holocaust memorial. Is that what you're saying? Yes or no will do!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:14 PM

Yeah.. The fantastical 'let's pretend we're real influential grown ups' world of student Union politics..!!!

This is getting so desperate Bob & Keith will soon be quoting the stance of Primary school Children's Councils on anti-semitism..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 06:41 PM

This is what the left has been reduced to -- choosing a leader whose antisemitism is covered only by the thinnest veil ever invented.

Last month, amid ongoing anti-Semitism row in British party, Israel's opposition head wrote a letter urging its leaders to visit Holocaust memorial; Corbyn has not replied

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Partym
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 04:54 PM

Do keep up, Bobad old bean. There has been no EUMC for nine years. And the guidelines were scrapped three years ago. You're already a troll, an extremely dishonest person and a laughing stock. Try not to make it worse for yourself. Read the thread. As for the NUS, they are just as much all over the place as they were when I was a member forty years ago. By the way, tell us what the NUS president thinks as well as the vice-president. We do like balance, you know. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 01:25 PM

Vice President of the NUS, Richard Brooks, confirmed that the organisation subscribes to EUMC's (European Union Monitoring Centre) definition of anti-Semitism, which specifically says "making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media" is anti-Semitic.

The Tab

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:40 AM

This is Keith's thread about the UK Labour Party,.. not.. and repeat... not.. about Israel,
as he rightfully reminds us from time to time whenever he starts getting a bit uncomfortable.....


If Israel is so great, why is it such an apparently thuggish trouble maker, and why is it constantly stealing from and getting in fights with it's neighbours,
perpetually manipulating the truth and blaming everyone else for all the problems...???

If Israel was a family on a provincial UK Council Estate
the police would be regularly getting called out to have a word with them,
and the Housing Agency might be sending them warning letters about improving their behaviour or risk serious consequences...


My mrs works with such dysfunctional anti-social families and knows how utterly soul destroying her working week can be... 😫

She especially feels the despairing futility and helplessness of the children of these families.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:11 AM

Ah yes, Richard Kemp, Israel sycophant and well-known nut job. Hear what this fair- minded bloke says about women? Kemp is against women serving in the army's Infantry arm, stating that that they lack "ferocity, aggression and killer instinct." Well there's a man whose judgement we can trust! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 09:03 AM

A perfect example of how the press dupes the gullible into demonizing Israel - and the haters just lap it up and spew it out:

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 08:40 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp speaks truth to those who would demonize, slander and distort the truth about Israel in order to bring about her isolation and destroy her:

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 16 - 08:27 AM

"Actually it's "Palestinian" aggression towards Jews that the Israelis are defending themselves against"
Only if you ignore the massacres,, the land seizures, the attempts to create an apartheid State..... and all the other crimes that the U.S. has used its vetoes to protect them from standing trial for.   
The Palestinians are defending themselves froin 'The Israelis' not the Jews and only an Antisemite would suggest otherwise (according to the definition)
It is little wonder that some of Israel's opponent describe blame "the Jews" - that is who the Israelis blame for their crimes.
You won't respond to this (either of you) but it's fact nonetheless.
Silence is a plea of "guilty as charged" as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:33 AM

Israeli aggression towards Palestinians

Actually it's "Palestinian" aggression towards Jews that the Israelis are defending themselves against. But you know that and, as usual, are perpetuating lies to demonize a country and it's people, as those of your ilk are wont to do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:13 AM

Keith has done what Keith always does, uses partial quotes out of context, to blacken the name of Jackie Walker. Personally I think she was foolish to apply "holocaust" to any other event than The Holocaust. I hope she had her wrist slapped for that. She has a long history of fighting racism and is vehemently opposed to Israeli aggression towards Palestinians. Her point about perpetrators and victims was right on the money. Both she and her partner are of Jewish descent. Was she right about Jews and the slave trade? Either she was or she wasn't. I wouldn't have put things that way myself. Jews were involved in the slave trade. Not all Jews, and not all slave traders were Jews. Either we are allowed to talk about it or we are not. If we are, then Jews is the word we have to use. Taken in context, her remarks were, arguably, ill-advised. But they were not antisemitic, because she was not attacking Jews because they are Jews. Politicians need to have regard fo the potential outcome of their remarks. At present, Labour is under the spotlight apropos of alleged antisemitism. The real antisemites in our right-wing parties, in Israel and in the major religions must be laughing their socks off.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 12:31 PM

We have not raised an "issue." We have raised a factual point that is totally verifiable for all the world to see but which you can't bring yourself to accept. You have turned that simple and straightforward thing into an issue, not us!

"Why would it need to be on the FRA website as well?"

What a stupid thing to say. It WAS on the FRA website. Until 2013. Read my Wiesenthal piece. The Beeb invoked it. Then they went into reverse BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT THAT THE FRA HAD REMOVED IT AND DISCARDED IT. The FRA did not remove it and discard it because it went up on somebody else's website. They removed it and discarded it because it was never an official EU document. They were having a clear-out. It's all there, from the horse's mouth, in that post. They could have referred the BBC to your other website, but they didn't. Why not? Because it was not an official document that they were able to refer the BBC to, and it never was, that's why not! Jesus, this is fun! If I ever decide to buy you something for your birthday I'll get you a framed copy. The frame will be rather ornate, consisting of lots of little pink elephants all holding each others' tails, all the way round the frame. Oh yes, I can see it now... 😂😂😂

I actually believe that I'm beginning to feel sorry for you....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 12:10 PM

Keith - why do you single yourself out...??? 🙄


You are the only one here we see teetering so far out on a precarious limb....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:57 AM

BBC 2 hours ago,

"A senior Labour activist who was suspended from the party over alleged anti-Semitic comments on Facebook has been reinstated.
Jackie Walker's suspension was lifted following an investigation, the party said.
The Kent activist and vice chair of the Momentum movement wrote about "the African holocaust" and Jews as "chief financiers of the slave trade". "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:54 AM

Pfr, I am just responding to Steve and Rag.
They raised the issue.
I was trying to discuss Labour's current problems.

Why did you single me out?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:39 AM

"If I was you I'd stop wasting time and energy fretting about all this arcane definitions bollox"
When he has nothing else, no alternative - so take your pick
"Whatever" is as good a reply as any.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:15 AM

Keith - If I was you I'd stop wasting time and energy fretting about all this arcane definitions bollox
and just accept the pragmatic use of the umbrella term 'racism';
and apply a bit of common sense if you think you know some jews who are genuinely being picked on and bullied...... 😣

Life can actually be a lot simpler and saner than you are making it for your self................

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 May 16 - 10:47 AM

Whatever Keith

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 10:12 AM

Rag,
Except that is EXACTLY what was reported in the Times of Israel in December 2013.

It said the definitions were "dropped" but as you have seen, they are not dropped.
They are still there on the EU website as they have been for eleven years!

Steve,
the official EU organisation that succeeded the body that drew up the document in the first place?) and you will not find the document. It was never restored, in spite of the pleas from the SWC. It's gone for good, Keith

But it is not "gone for good" Steve!
As I keep telling you, the "WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM" is now published on the pages of the "European Parliament Working Group On Anti Semitism."
Why would it need to be on the FRA site as well?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:07 AM

Concerning a letter from the Simon Wiesenthal Center to Baroness Ashton. Paris, 6 November 2013. Taken from wiesenthal.com

In a letter to European Union Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Catherine Ashton of Upholland (pictured), the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's
Director for International Relations, Dr. Shim On Samuels, expressed shock, "To read on 'Electronic Intifada' website that the European Union's Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) – now renamed the Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) – 2004 'Working Definition of Anti-Semitism' has been removed from the Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) website."

The letter noted, "The BBC Trust, in addressing a complaint, had upheld the definition, in characterizing as anti-Semitic, a broadcaster's critique of comments on Israel made by a Member of the UK Parliament. The Trust has now, apparently, reversed its ruling following the Definition's removal, claiming:

'A press officer at the FRA has explained that this was a discussion paper and was never adopted by the EU as a working definition, although it has been on the FRA website until recently when it was removed during a clear-out of non-official documents. The link to the FRA site provided by the complainant in his appeal no longer works.'"

Samuels argued that:


— the EUMC carried the name 'European Union' in its title and all its published decisions are therefore official documents of the EU

— the FRA, as the successor to the EUMC, carries responsibility for the documents of its predecessor as part of its DNA"



The Centre therefore called on EU Baroness Ashton to:


— launch an investigation into the disappearance of the Working Definition and the coincidental change in the FRA website address

— return this important document to the current FRA website

— ensure that the appropriate EU bodies endorse the Working Definition in its entirety

Well, Keith, you can search the FRA website until you're blue in the face (the FRA, Keith - remember? - the official EU organisation that succeeded the body that drew up the document in the first place?) and you will not find the document. It was never restored, in spite of the pleas from the SWC. It's gone for good, Keith. It is the "official policy" of pro-Israel setups only. Denying as you do that it was discarded is a blatant lie. If it was never adopted as EU policy, and was cast aside by its own authors, you'd better look slightly differently at the places where you still find it. People like you who desperately want to cling to it. People who don't do enough googling and hope we won't notice. Of course you can find antisemitism-fighting websites that use it. They would, wouldn't they, knowing that it has a whiff, no matter how bogus, of EU officialdom about it. They can cite its source without telling us the inconvenient truth that its source discarded it years ago. Well, unless the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Times Of Israel and Wikipedia are all deluded, of course. That is what's going on here, Keith. We know how much you love a document that prevents valid criticism of the Israeli regime. The trouble is, you love it so much that it's blinded you to the truth. Your behaviour in this thread, as with the Wheatcroft matter, has been shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:08 AM

"WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM"
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Therefore, it is Antisemitic to accuse people who criticise Israel of Antisemitism - which is what Israel does and what you have done., making you and Israel..........!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:02 AM

Duh !!

" There is no suggestion that it is not in force or not recognised by anyone"

Except that is EXACTLY what was reported in the Times of Israel in December 2013.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 16 - 05:44 AM

Therefore being able to call people Jew haters is official Mudcat policy. Right, Keith?

No Steve.
Anyone can post to Mudcat. It is an open forum.
You have to be accredited by EU to publish stuff on their pages.

The "WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM" is published on the site of the "European Parliament Working Group On Anti Semitism."

It says "The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

There is no suggestion that it is not in force or not recognised by anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 16 - 04:20 PM

Bobad calls people Jew haters on this website. The posts are still there. Therefore being able to call people Jew haters is official Mudcat policy. Right, Keith? 😂

Now I asked you some questions. You haven't answered a single one. They're reiterated at 02.48 pm. It really should be very simple for you if you're so sure you're not lying. Fire away, Keith. Finish me off. Chapter and verse, please.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:07 PM

Their appearance on some website or other is not evidence that they are official EU policy

Yes it is.
Having been previously published by two previous EU bodies over the last eleven years, it is now published by "The EU Working Group On Anti Semitism."
An Eu body on an EU website.

Its stated purpose is "supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."

Not theoretical. Not in any particular EU state or states.
There are no exclusions specified, so why do you claim it?

Answer, because you have been caught out, shown to be wrong and made to look silly.

And your silly attempts at ridicule have rebounded on your silly head because you were wrong and I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:06 PM

Their appearance on some website or other is not evidence that they are official EU policy

Yes it is.
Having been previously published by two previous EU bodies over the last eleven years, it is now published by "The EU Working Group On Anti Semitism."
An Eu body on an EU website.

Its stated purpose is "supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."

Not theoretical. Not in any particular EU state or states.
There are no exclusions specified, so why do you claim it?

Answer, because you have been caught out, shown to be wrong and made to look silly.

And your silly attempts at ridicule have rebounded on your silly head because you were wrong and I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 16 - 02:48 PM

You are lying. You don't want to think the criteria have been dropped because you rather like them. So you make the seriously mistaken claim that they haven't been dropped. Well in a sense you're right. You can't drop something that was never adopted in the first place! 😂😂😂. You can't face the fact that you made a mistake so you're going to repeat the lie until kingdom come in the hope that it will eventually go away. I have challenged you to demonstrate that the criteria are current official EU policy. You can't, because they are not. Their appearance on some website or other is not evidence that they are official EU policy UNLESS THAT IS EXPRESSLY STATED, which it never is. I have challenged you to show that, despite all the reports, the criteria were never shelved (they were, by an official EU body as it happens, the FRA, in December 2013). I challenged you to demonstrate that the criteria were ever adopted at all as official EU policy. You can't, because they never were. We are not fools, Keith. Unlike you, we can check things out with our eyes open, not just looking for confirmation of our prejudices. You should be ashamed of yourself. And while I live and breathe and am allowed to post here, I'm not letting you get away with insulting us with your lies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:38 AM

Rag, it is not out of date.
As Steve pointed out, the EU organisations have evolved from EUMC to FRA to EPWG.
All have republished the criteria including in the last 3 years.

Steve, this is not "just some antisemitism dot com website."
This is the relevant EU website.
It is the site of the European Parliament Working Group On Anti Semitism.
It is their "WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM" and has been for eleven years.

It says "The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism."
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

You, Richard and Rag claimed it had been dropped.
It clearly has not.
You tried to support your false claim with a Wiki page, and Rag and Richard with a 3 year old uncorroborated ToI report that it was being dropped, but it never was.

You called me "a joke on legs" for demonstrating the facts as they actually are.
I was right and you were all wrong.
What does that make you Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:35 PM

"The ToI said the definitions had been dropped, but they are still there.
I was right."

Prove it. Second request today: show us the official, mainstream, current EU website that has the guidelines up there, stated to be official EU policy. Not just some antisemitism dot com website. Show us that it doesn't say that they don't count, and what's more, they never did. But let me save you the bother and put you out of your misery. You can't do it, Keith. You can make assertions that you can't qualify. You've been caught out, and this is all you can do. You think that denying it repeatedly will eventually make us too fed up to carry on, so your face will be saved. No such luck, Keith. You should know me by now. Your Wheatcroft moment was over two years ago and I am not going to let it go away. You're a laughing stock, Keith, and your problem is entirely of your own making.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:52 PM

Professor if you look on the Internet you will see I am still associated with various organisations. I retired over FIVE years ago. I haven't been associated with one particular organisation for almost TEN years yet I am still mentioned on their website.

I know you believe everything you read on the internet (providing it fits your own preconceived ideas) but often the information you read is incorrect or, in the example above, grossly out of date.

Like I have said before .............. Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:59 PM

Keith - we all should know that any basis of truth or facts can be distorted and misrepresented,
depending on the bias of those reporting such 'facts' to a wider public audience...???

Sure some media is crude and totally dishonest enough to make up stories...

But Serious news media is certainly not innocent of spinning 'facts' any way required to fit their own ideological agenda and objectives...

That's no surprise... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:44 PM

Rag,
I would however consider the "Times of Israeli" to be a better arbiter than you with your selective cut and pastes from obscure websites.

The ToI said the definitions had been dropped, but they are still there.
I was right.

Steve,
Just repeats of his old lies that have been comprehensively debunked over and over again.
No lies Steve. I was right and you were wrong.
It is on the EU website, and always has been, with no disclaimers.
We have been discussing it here since February 2013 at least.

Pfr,
Or maybe like me, you only know of their alleged existence via mainstream media sources.

I know about their existence because the Labour Party National Executive Committe were "appalled by recent examples of anti-seitic abuse."
I doubt that they made it up.
Do you think they did?

Also Khan accused Corbyn of refusing to call out Labour anti-semitism. (no "ifs")
Do you think he made it up?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 16 - 09:37 AM

I'll add for context, that I live in a medium to large provincial west country town,
dominated by an elderly conservative population, and notorious for youth drug related crime....

.. and for a while our street had a hostel harbouring B*P supporting skinhead thugs who threatened trouble to black and asian residents...

[large B*P posters prominently displayed in front windows directly across the road from a young black family - police were aware, but apparently did nothing...???]

If anti-semitism was any major issue at all around here, I'm sure I'd at least be aware of even rumours by now... 😕

Now whilst I have quarter jewish blood, and also have blue eyes and a foreskin, I am obviously not regarded as a jew by their [your ???] religion and culture,
However some extremist white supremacists believe they have such finely attuned 'jewdar' that they could identify me as the 'enemy' within minutes.

In fact, a black Nigerian woman in London once became less friendly after she had suddenly convinced herself I was a jew...???

So, if I think about it there are places I myself would be seriously unsafe from anti-semitism..

That is an actual nasty fact of life, not just paranoid over anxiety...

So, as a potential victim of anti-semitism [fingers crossed, more hypothetical than real threat],
please don't even consider accusing me of ignoring or trivialising the issues...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 16 - 09:11 AM

Or maybe like me, you only know of their alleged existence via mainstream media sources.....???????"

You forgot to include "Murdoch-owned, Conservative Party Propaganda-Rag" between 'via' and 'mainstream', PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:50 AM

"Pfr, I did think that Labour's antisemitism had been revealed from within the party.
Sorry.
It is even more shocking that Labour ignored "appalling anti-semitic abuse" and it was left to outsiders to reveal it.
Would you have preferred that it remained hidden?

I do recall that Khan accused Corbyn of refusing to call out antisemitism."

I'll be honest with you Keith.. I don't actually know any antisemites within the Labour Party.
In fact I don't actually know any antisemites at all anywhere in real life.

The only openly xenophobic comments I hear expressed by drunks in the local social club, which might at all be construed as racist,
are regarding Polish immigrants...

I would not be surprised if these old drunks tend to vote UKIP, and are not keen on staying in the EU.

Perhaps you can tell us if you personally know any local Labour party branch members, or any where else in the country, who are actually actively antisemitic...???

Or maybe like me, you only know of their alleged existence via mainstream media sources.....??????? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:38 AM

Keith's back is to the wall. No more arguments. Just repeats of his old lies that have been comprehensively debunked over and over again. Keith, if you seriously think that the EU recognises, or ever recognised, that document as official EU policy (and deep down you know they don't and never did, of course you do) then show us where, on an official, mainstream, current EU website, ratified by the EU powers that be. Chapter and verse. Come along now. We haven't got all day...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:32 AM

Whatever Keith


I would however consider the "Times of Israeli" to be a better arbiter than you with your selective cut and pastes from obscure websites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:39 AM

Rag, Richard produced that quote three weeks ago.
My reply,
"05 May 16 - 04:15 AM   Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?

Richard was unable to reply.
Can you Rag?

Me again 3 days ago Rag,
"Three years ago there was a flurry of uncorroborated reports that the criteria were being dropped.
Today there is no evidence that it ever happened.
If you search for EU antisemetism criteria, you are directed to the original EUMC criteria on an EU page.
There is nothing on any EU page to suggest that they are no longer in force, and as you have been shown, they have been adopted by numerous organisations and states beyond the EU.
If they are no longer recognised, please direct us to an EU body that says so."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:31 AM

None of Bobad's list covrs in any way anything here other than the growing claims by high ranking Israelis that what is happening in Israel today is comparable with pre-war Germany
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:25 AM
The date on Bobad's cut-'n-paste says it all -June 8, 2010 - a lot of blood has flowed under the bridge since then.
The U.S. definition carefully avoids the one that the European one faced head-on, Israel's responsibility towards the Jewish people as a whole.
The old one says that it was not Antisemitic to criticise Israeli behaviour - this one doesn't.
The old one says it was Antisemitic to equate the actions of Isreal with the Jewish People as a whole - this one doesn't.
This is not a definition to combat Antisemitism; if is a defence of Israeli war crimes and acts of terrorism - it is hardly surprising that the U.S. has used its U.N. veto over a hundred times to prevent Israeli State terrorism being condemned internationally.
Given the current swing to the extreme right in Israel, this is a very dangerous situation for the world to be in.
We really have been here before - in the 1930s
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:59 AM

Defining Anti-Semitism

Fact Sheet
Special Envoy To Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism
Washington, DC
June 8, 2010
   
"Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." --Working Definition of Anti-Semitism by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia
Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews (often in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion).
    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective—especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, the state of Israel, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interest of their own nations.


What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel?

EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:

DEMONIZE ISRAEL:

    Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis
    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
    Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions

DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
    Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations

DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist

However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.

U.S. Department of State

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 05:59 AM

I'm not bothered whether he changes his mind or not. It would just be nice if he could tell the unvarnished truth without the constant twisting, turning and pathetic attempts to divert us away from his errors.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 05:51 AM

The fact that Keith wants to talk about definitions and ignore the realities of an increasingly extremist right-wing Israeli regime using those definitions to defend its actions says all that needs to be said.
I have to say that allowing him to do so by joining in his arguments is feeding the troll - as you said elsewhere Steve - you're never going to change his mind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:48 AM

Yep. The first two paragraphs of that tell you that the document is defunct, there is no replacement definition and that the EUMC no longer exists. I told you it was easy to find out. Shh, don't tell Keith. He's probably busy rewriting history on the Rising thread.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:46 AM

Should read Times of Israel. Oooops

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:41 AM

Isreali Times

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 04:29 AM

Keith, your posts regarding the defunct antisemitism document are full of inaccuracies, misunderstandings, mischaracterisations and downright lies. Your modus operandi, as ever, is to try to throw fluff all around the issue in order to save your skin. Well that doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. It's all too easy to see what you're up to. It's another Wheatcroft moment and it's going to keep coming back to bite you. Anyone who cares and who has a willing googling finger can find out in two minutes flat how you're trying to mislead us.

"Still there on an EU web page with no disclaimers..." Ha!