BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:30 AM

You've missed a bit Keith, what about Corbyn personally ordering thousands of T shirts for 30p each and then selling them for £10 putting £9.70 into his own pocket and this after he had reduced the workers food down from just gruel to bread and water. Rumour has it he actually walks round the sweatshop with a huge whip lashing out at those he thought were not working hard enough. His next plan is to build chimneys so he can send children up them, and a treadmill for the old folks. You'd better watch out he hates Christians and Buddhists and Baptists and Jews, Jesuits, Jains, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, pagans and Jedi although I believe he has a soft spot for Shinto.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:28 AM

How can confessions come from you when you're not even in it! You are being used as an obsessive channel for relatively minor indiscretions by a handful or two of over half a million members whilst ignoring the catastrophic shenanigans of your favoured Tory and UKIP racists and liars. How clever of you to define yourself in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

Are you sure it is just me, the BBC, the Guardian and every other agency including Labour List making it up?

Not making things up, I would say, but putting as negative a spin on everything as possible. For example, I am told there is an article in the Daily Mail on Sunday calling Corbyn a hypocrite for having T-shirts with a slogan on sale for his campaign 'where the workers are only paid 30p an hour' which he has previously criticized.

I admit that's all probably true. But I follow it by asking do you know anywhere in the world people who make T-shirts are paid the UK Living wage? I doubt they exist, because 'the capitalist system' would put them out of business pretty quickly through competition. So either you never wear or sell T-shirts at all (or indeed most other clothing), or you have little choice. And if that is the case, is criticising it hypocritical? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:07 AM

You two are losing your grip on reality if you deny that Labour is in a chaotic crisis.
Are you sure it is just me, the BBC, the Guardian and every other agency including Labour List making it up?

Confessions of antisemitism, accusations of misogyny and intimidation are coming from within Labour, not from me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM

What !!! Criticise the establishment !! Keith !!

Good god he`d have to spend weeks on his knees, bowing and scraping and begging forgiveness from his "betters" and probably saying a prayer or fifteen into the bargain.

I will say this for him though, he`s not quite as beholden to his "masters" as Teribus is although it is close.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:05 PM

Raggytash, his contributions here, if you can call them that, are nothing more than a one-track minded campaign to blacken the Labour Party at what he sees as every available opportunity. In the meantime, Tory incompetence, bungling, miscalculating and lies to the people of this country have precipitated what will probably be the biggest disaster for this country in any of our lifetimes. Eton Toryboy games have sunk the ship. Note that he has bugger all to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:46 AM

"There is no-one worth voting for at the moment"
It's been like they with me for a long time Stu - I haven't voted in a British election since the advent of Blair's New Labour.
I really believe Corbyn might make a difference and would be tempted to vote for him if we still lived in the U.K.
Brexit is going to further deterioration of living standards for ordinary families; this surely has to mean people will be looking for someone who is going improve their lives with more than the rhetoric Johnson, Farrage, et al are offering.
Though I have always voted Labour, my politics lead me to believe that parliamentary democracy (sic) is a non-starter anyway - you just select the best of a bad bunch to cast your vote for, not ideal, nor particularly principled, but better than waiting around to say "I told you so".
I used to argue with my old man about this interminably - he always said, vote as left as you can.
We do have a slightly better alternative in Ireland with P.R. - it's been interesting to see the establishment parties backing away from repressive policies because of the way our votes count a little more than they do in the U.K.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:44 AM

Your contributions here are just one persons fantasy.

No.
They are the expressed views of most senior Labour figures.

From that Labour List piece,
""The truth is many of the people who are heaping abuse on people are Jeremy's supporters. It is just a fact that it is Jeremy's side of the argument that is engaging in this great volume of abuse."

One left wing group today said that they would be pulling support for an NEC candidate in future after she oversaw the suspension of one CLP (constituency Labour Party) after reports of intimidation at a meeting."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM

Ha, ha, ha, brilliant professor.


Your contributions here are just one persons fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:38 AM

Headline in Labour List yesterday,

"Senior Labour figures air fresh concerns over abuse in the party."

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/senior-labour-figures-in-row-over-level-of-abuse-in-the-party/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM

Rag,
you could also refer to the article directly above it that refers to M15 using "dark practices" to discredit Corbyn.

That is just one person's (McCluskey's) fantasy/conspiracy theory.
The piece I quoted (just google a bit of text, it was only yesterday) was an open letter from forty female Labour MPs to Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 11:12 AM

Jim - I agree with all of that, but can't see how Labour can continue anyway. The big drift to UKIP and the right has proved that it's not left or right that matters to people, it's that they vote for the people that they believe understand them and will represent their interests in the face of the establishment and big business. The fact that no-one actually does (the Brexiteers were liars after all, and have pissed off anyway) mean they will vote for the person that plays that part, such as Farage and Johnson and however unpleasant the views and concise of that person.

Labour must change, but it truly does't have a clue and I wouldn't vote for them. There is no-one worth voting for at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 10:36 AM

Great piece, Jim. Keith and the cheat ought to be forced to write it out a hundred times.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM

"Why would they? They're winning."
Sorry - badly worded.
I don't believe the Labour Party vcan survive another period in the hands of the right wing - the damage done by 'New Labour' is probably irreparable as it is, more of the same would just about finish the party.
Fine for career politicians - it doesn't matter one way or the other which party they belong to, but it does to the rest of us.
The indications are that, with May, we have another Thatcher - different technique maybe, but the end result is the same.
Boris Johnson as foreign minister, for crying out loud - and the possibility of Trump in the White House
'Beam me up Scotty!!!'
Right wing Labour isn't going to do anything to rock that particular love-boat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 09:20 AM

"How about the right changing and giving the British people an alternative."

Why would they? They're winning.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:37 AM

"Repeat that to yourself whilst looking in a mirror."

I don't talk to my mirror image. There's so much to admire and I find its best done in silence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

All this appears to be an ectension of the Labour right to smear Corbyn, which started with attempts to make the Labour Party Ansisemitic
ANTISEMITISM SMEARS AGAINST LABOUR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 08:16 AM

Your obsession is very amusing

Repeat that to yourself whilst looking in a mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:47 AM

Keep going, Keith. Your obsession is very amusing. Have a little break and tell us instead about how that incompetent bungler Cameron went begging to Angela Merkel the week before the referendum to try to get exemptions on free movement when he realised that the out campaign had him by short and curlies over immigration and about how Boris Johnson dearly wanted his out campaign to fail so as to leave call-me-Dave damaged but not destroyed. Two blithering miscalculating idiots have wrecked the future of this country and all you can do is try to bloat some non-stories about Labour. You are a bloody sad case, you are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:24 AM

Another cut and paste, why not link to the article so that everyone can read it in full rather than your particular selection of it.

While you're about it you could also refer to the article directly above it that refers to M15 using "dark practices" to discredit Corbyn.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

Guardian, 18 hours ago,

Jeremy Corbyn has been plunged into another row over bullying within the Labour party after more than 40 of his female MPs signed a letter calling for him to do more to combat "an extremely worrying trend of escalating abuse and hostility".

Earlier on Friday Corbyn was obliged to deny that he had sought to intimidate another of his MPs by threatening to telephone the man's father to seek his intervention in a row.

The open letter addressed to Corbyn, tweeted by the Dewsbury MP Paula Sherriff and signed by her and 43 colleagues, condemns the Labour leader for what they call an inadequate response to threats and demonstrations by groups who support him in his battle with a rebellious parliamentary party.

It expresses alarm that the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and other shadow ministers have addressed rallies where demonstrations outside MPs' offices or bullying at constituency Labour party meetings have been "actively encouraged or quietly condoned".

The strongly worded letter says MPs have experienced rape threats, death threats and other incidents, amid a climate of worry following the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox in June. It adds that female and non-white MPs have been "disproportionately affected" by the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM

"It's what I said Jim! I am full of shit."
If you say so - don't strike me that way.
"There is clearly a problem with anti-semitism and misogyny, "
No more than anywhere else and all you efforts to show there is any have fallen apart - there is no evidence
"The left needs to change, and although it needs thinkers like Corbyn "
How about the right changing and giving the British people an alternative.
To elect the present Labour party is to get more of the same.
The Irish Labour Party tied itself to the established parties in order to get a toe - hold in parliament - when those Parties failed to deliver the goods The Labour party virtually disappeared as a credible representative of the Irish people.
Can anybody honestly claim that Britain needs more war criminals like Blair and bumblers like Brown.
Edwina the Eagle, for god's sake - who next?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:59 AM

Just for the record Stu I think Corbyn worked as a journalist for small paper for a time and he did spend two years doing Voluntary work in overseas.

Voluntary work can certainly open one's eyes, I can think of various people of here who would benefit from it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM

"to take your word for it if that's really what you're saying"

It's what I said Jim! I am full of shit.


The issue with the Labour party is they are unelectable. Corbyn lives as much in a political bubble as Cameron did but rather than being an Eton toff is a sour old leftie. Like Cameron and his Notting Hill muckers he has no experience of life at the sharp end, has always been involved in unions or politics rather than earning a crust and is as equally unfit to lead as Cameron was. Thinking about it, even Cameron did a stint as a PR man so perhaps he had more life experience.

The left needs to change, and although it needs thinkers like Corbyn it still has to adjust to the global nature of business and politics of the 21st Century. Most of the workforce is not unionised, how does the left re-connect with the millions of self-employed for example? It does not recognised the importance of social media or understand how people connect with each other using our fast-changing technology. Finally, it needs to rediscover it's radical heritage and adapt that spirit to the modern age.

I can't see that happening in the Labour party now, and they have let us down horribly during the EU ref campaign, and are failing utterly to hold the government to account during a time we need an effective opposition in parliament. They have become the epitome of a myopic, narcissistic and out of touch political clusterfuck with nothing to offer the ordinary working person.

Oh, and why are they so against a woman leader? Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:36 AM

Owen Smith, Left Wing Labour MP and leadership contender,
"I think Jeremy should take a little more responsibility for what's going on in the Labour party. After all, we didn't have this sort of abuse and intolerance, misogyny, antisemitism in the Labour party before Jeremy Corbyn became the leader.

"It's now become something that is being talked about on television, on radio, and in newspapers. And Angela is right, it has been effectively licenced within the last nine months."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM

I do not hate labour and was a Labour voter.
There is clearly a problem with anti-semitism and misogyny, but mostly at the hard left end.

No need to scour the press, and Naz Shah was not appolgising to the Commons, but in a R4 interview.
Report here.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM

Stop lying, Keith. Nowhere has my case been that there is "no issue" and that is all over this thread. You are thoroughly obsessed with painting the Labour Party as black as possible, scouring the press for any snippet you can find that a few members have said less than wise things. Get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

"I have just quoted prominent and lifelong Labour Party people "
Been here before Keith - selective quotes from interested parties prove nuffin'.
Better get some new champions for you crusade - supporters of a right-wing coup wouldn't stand up in court- just as your supporters of the Israeli regime didn't.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 05:30 AM

The article refers to an apology to the House of Commons from just ONE member of the Labour Party from a shared FACEBOOK post she made BEFORE she became a sitting member of the house. Uncomfortably, certainly, regrettable, certainly, earth-shattering ........... er ..... bit of a storm in a tea cup really. Not surprising given the source.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM

Your case has been that there is no issue.
I have just quoted prominent and lifelong Labour Party people who know that there is.
If you have anything similar on CofE or other parties, do share it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM

When wuill you get it into your Antisemitic head Bobad that blamiing Israel for anything is not Antisemitic, by definition - Israel is not the Jewish people, it does nor represent the Jewish people, its actions are not those of the Jewish people, on the contrary, the way various regimes have behaved down the decades have acted against the interests of the Jewish people.
Israel, not the Jews facilitated the massacre of 3,5000 unarmed refugees at Sabra/Shatila.
Israel, not the Jews, confiscated huge areas of Palestinian land and have placed the region on a permanent war footing.
Israel, not the Jews, used chemical and anti-personnel weapons on civilians, destroyed homes, hospitals and schools, brought about many thousands of deaths and have ruined the lives of the Palestinian people with their various incursions.
It was Israel, not the Jews, who tried to turn Apartheid South Africa into a nuclear power.
Some of the greatest critics of Israel policy are Jews - teh Israelis have described them as "self-hating Jews" - in doing so, Israel is waging war on large numbers of Jewish people.
It is the height of Antisemitism to lay these crimes at the door of the Jewish people.
People like you have painted a target on every Jew on the planet - their blood is on your hands.
There is far too much Antisemitism on this planet already without your adding to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:40 PM

As a Labour Party member I take great comfort from the fact that the Tory Party, the Catholic Church, the Church of England and UKIP are are far more infested with antisemitism than my party. Right-wing hypocrites will, of course, always look for the tiniest snippet of the kind of "evidence" jumped on by the Daily Mail and the Murdoch Daily Liar papers that they love to go to town on. Tabloid press and your tabloid mentality, Keith. In bobad's case, I doubt whether be can even read a paper at all, and I mean both of him.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:12 PM

We would all take some additional comfort, Boo, if you were to crawl back under your own particular rock.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

Supporters of the Labour party may take some small comfort from the fact that theirs is not the only party infected with anti-semites. This one from the Liberal Democrat party just crawled out from under a rock: British lawmaker blames Israel for Islamic terror

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:09 PM

"Keith does not need a stick, the labour Party does a very good job of beating up on itself."
Only by embracing right-wing policies - look at what happened to the Irish Labour Party - gone, and never called me mother.
RIGHT WING DIRTY TRICKS
Keith does need a stick, like Voltaire's quote on God, "If labour didn't have problems, it would be necessary to invent some" - and he has.
One thing is certain, Blair's 'New Labour' has been an abysmal failure - Labour doesn't need a "strong" leadership, it needs principles and a strong commitment to them - a return to its Socialist base.
It's worst problem is it is virtually indistinguishable from the Tories.
looking as Siddiqu's gripes, her main bone of contention appears to be that her flavour of the month, Edna the Eagle, is out of the running.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:26 PM

Keith does not need a stick, the labour Party does a very good job of beating up on itself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM

Tulip Sudiq is part of the attempted right-wing coup to overthrow Corbyn and her main objective is to get women elected, regardless of ability apparently.
Reading through her statement, her accusations are at the "another woman MP tells me" level.
There is no argument that sexism exists throughout politics, irrespective of parties - Westminster has always been referred to as a "Men's Club".
Sadiq's accusations od sexism come with about as much evidence as did accusations of antisemitism - very little.
Another stick for Keith to beat the Laboutr Party, it would appear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:53 PM

Oh, go away, Keith. It's clear that you get off believing that your hated Labour Party is nobbut a raving bunch of antisemites. Of course, there's no antisemitism in your Tory Party or the Church of England, is there? Hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:03 PM

"The online abuse is getting worse," says Tulip Siddiq, MP for Hampstead and Kilburn. "There hasn't been enough condemnation from the top about that behaviour. It should be zero tolerance of abuse — whether it's misogyny or anti-Semitism or any other form — and it needs to be said repeatedly, not just once in a while."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:53 PM

"Not only do you not know that, your powers will not work on me old man."
Old certainly, not powerful.
I argue as I argue, you find problems with what I say, feel free to challenge them, but I would prefer it if all arguments we had were conducted in a polite and respectful manner.
I was pointing out what I believe to be a contradiction in your approach - you object to some people arguing but not others.
I don't know if you are full of shit, but am happy to take your word for it if that's really what you're saying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:43 PM

It's the debating style rather than the content. I love the rough and tumble but it always ends with the same people yelling at each other.

I'm undoubtedly wrong virtually all the time. I am full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:28 PM

Then, Stu, you must be wrong too, as you appear to agree with us in almost everything you post. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:01 PM

"Didn't seem to bother you too much then"

Not only do you not know that, your powers will not work on me old man.

For the record, I think you're all wrong, but there you go.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM

Keith - there's not enough time in a day to wait for this thread to crawl open.
Even if you click "Descending" order.. still too bloody slow...

Please use the more recent shorter threads for your labour bashing....


THIS IS A NOTIFICATION ONLY MESSAGE. PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND. YOU ARE A VALUED CUSTOMER. HAVE A NICE DAY....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:02 AM

"Oh bloody hell, they're all on this thread too."
With respect Stu - some of us have been subjected to a fair amount of abuse from one individual recently, as I'm sure you are aware.
Didn't seem to bother you too much then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:10 AM

Oh bloody hell, they're all on this thread too.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 08:35 AM

Sod off, Keith, you old bore.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM

Heading from The Independent, 18th July,

"'I didn't get anti-Semitism as racism,' says Labour MP Naz Shah
'The language that I used was anti-Semitic, it was offensive. What I did was I hurt people'"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-semitism-racism-labour-mp-naz-shah-ken-livingstone-bradford-west-a7142691.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

I tried doing that a few times before, but wasn't too reliable either.
Besides which, I habitually save complete threads for offline reference.

Anyway, Bonzo has just provided a new thread that should serve our purposes...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM

Pfr, you only have to open the last page of any thread.
Hit the "d."