Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'

Subject: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:59 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/apr/23/bob-dylan-joni-mitchell?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

In an outspoken interview, Joni Mitchell claims Bob Dylan's 'name and voice are fake', but remembers Jimi Hendrix fondly
   
'Bob is not authentic at all' Bob Dylan is "a plagiarist", Joni Mitchell said in a rare interview this week, offering cranky comments on old Bob and warm memories of Jimi Hendrix. The legendary singer-songwriter, who has wrestled with health problems, said she may quit music to lobby for recognition of her rare medical condition.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:07 AM

Sounds like Joni has flipped.
Sad article to read, as it shows her as delusional, and the writer as hostile.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: bankley
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:47 AM

I saw her with Dylan's 'Rolling Thunder' tour...in Montreal.. she had written 'Coyote' for him.. Baez, Ramblin'Jack were there.. Bob and Joni went to Leonard Cohen's house and asked him to perform that night... he declined.. I wish her the best..

ps Tim Hardin used to say the same things about Dylan.. but he's dead and Mr.Bob is still going.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:59 AM

What is her rare medical condition then ??

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:03 AM

Yellataxis I think.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: JJ
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:04 AM

Well, of course he's a plagiarist. He always has been. What else is new?

Hope Joni's health gets better...

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:23 AM

From the linked article -

Last year, the singer announced that she suffers from Morgellons syndrome, a rare skin condition. It's a controversial diagnosis – many doctors deny that Morgellons is real, calling it delusional. "[It's a] weird, incurable disease that seems like it's from outer space," Mitchell told the Times. "But my health's the best it's been in a while. Two nights ago, I went out for the first time since 23 December."


DeG

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Morris-ey
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:02 AM

Hardly worth a thread. What next, laughing at/sympathising with sufferers of senile dementia?

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:56 AM

"In an outspoken interview, Joni Mitchell claims Bob Dylan's 'name and voice are fake'"

Well, can't argue with that really. Registry records would confirm the first, and a competent linguistician with expertise in accent recognition would confirm the second!

I thought that was common knowledge anyway!

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

Morris-ey, your dour disposition brings me to the conclusion that you are the one and only Mancy version of the name. Or at least you wrote a lot of his songs...

:D

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: MMario
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:13 AM

Morgellons syndrome sounds like it's going to be the new "faD disease of the month"

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: TonyA
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:34 AM

Another quote from the interview:
"Americans have decided to be stupid and shallow since 1980.
Madonna is like Nero; she marks the turning point."

I wonder if what she means about Bob Dylan's name being fake is that his poetry doesn't bear much resemblance to that of Dylan Thomas?

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: beeliner
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:38 AM

Name and voice fake, common knowledge. Plagiarist? Well, of course there's the famous Lorre Wyatt story.

Also, the Modern Times CD says, 'All songs written by Bob Dylan", and he sure as hell didn't write "Rollin' and Tumblin'".

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:51 AM

Well, of course there's the famous Lorre Wyatt story.

Snopes

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:25 AM

Man, what a shock! Next we'll be hearing from Fred Eaglesmith or someone that Shane's boasting about his prowess with women is all just a big put-on and that his pot plants aren't the best ones north of...umm...Bracebridge?

;-)

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:47 AM

"A celebrity is one who is known by many people he is glad he doesn't know."

H.L. Mencken

To which we might append, in this case, "And a few acquaintances who he regrets knowing..."

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 12:15 PM

Plagiarist or eclectic?

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 01:42 PM

Joni just needs some translation..............

"Bob is not authentic at all. He's a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception."
Just like Joni but she's done worse in the long haul.....including looks.

Yet Mitchell still had time to slag off Grace Slick and Janis Joplin (allegedly they were "[sleeping with] their whole bands and falling down drunk")...
Meaning Joni couldn't get laid if she was a Persian rug.

Mitchell fondly recalled Hendrix, "the sweetest guy", and late-night listening sessions together...
Actually, Hendrix was the only one who would fuck her and that was only when he was completely strung out and lacked the coordination to even jack-off.

"Americans have decided to be stupid and shallow since 1980. Madonna is like Nero; she marks the turning point."
This one I completely disagree with! I'm an American and we've been a bunch of shallow fuckwits for years and long before Madonna was born. Jesus Christ we eledted one guy as President who got stuck in a bathtub and another who spent an entire THREE MONTHS in SOUTH DAKOTA and nobody even noticed.

And then there's this:

I'm actually trying to get out of the music business...
Well that shouldn't be too hard and we can all give her a rousing cheer as a sendoff...........................

rah

Spaw

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM

Gee i dunno but i think if red, white, black and blue fibres started sprouting out of my skin i might go a little mental too.

Morgellons is currently being moderately investigated due to increasing public awareness. The condition today was so named because the Leitao's mother (nurse w/a BS in biology) and father (internist) found the condition their 2 year old son was suffering documented in a letter from 1690 that described similar symptoms in children in Languedoc. These 2 medical professionals have been accused of having Munchausen's by proxy because specialists could find no medically known reason for their son's lesions. Since they started the Morgellons Research Foundation over 12,000 families from US, UK, Australia, Canada and the Netherlands have contacted them describing similar symptoms.

The description of the syndrome and Joni's admission that it sounds like alien infection reminds me of Smilla's Sense of Snow. An Inuit child is murdered to cover up his father's (and possibly his own) infection from a alien life form discovered in in a meteor inside a glacier. Good book - the film was dire.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 01:51 PM

my god. i just reread my post and I think I am doing too many painkillers.

Most dermatologists, psychiatrists, and other medical professionals view Morgellons as a new name for a well established condition, delusional parasitosis,[41] also known as "delusions of parasitosis which is a neuropsychological disorder.

I am itching all over now. Gonna take a shower.

Maybe Dylan is delusion of parasitosis to Joni.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:27 PM

Strange co-incidence. I had never even heard of this condition or anything like it, and then yesterday I read Jenny Diski's piece on it in the London Review of Books - she seems to have suffered from it for a spell. She's someone I have huge respect for after reading her autobiographical Skating To Antarctica.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n08/jenny-diski/diary

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

I came across Morgellons on the Internet a couple of years ago. While it doesn't seem totally impossible that there is some unrecognized real physical disease out there, most of the people posting messages about it are total fruitcakes. The delusional system has now been developed to maintain that it's a government conspiracy, spread by toxic jet contrails. Which makes it the first disease in history that anybody thinks you might prevent by blowing up an Icelandic volcano. It would be interesting to see what the Morgellon cult thinks about that.

Delusions of weird shit crawling under your skin have been a recognized symptom of cocaine and amphetamine addiction for 100 years, and so has paranoia. Would you take a used rolled-up banknote from either Mitchell or Diski?

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:37 PM

Sponds all very sad ....must be a cd coming soon..

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:43 PM

jet vapour trails.... well that certainly fits in with the problems documented in 1690.

is it possible that the psychosis is biological as part of a real parasitic infestation?

Porphyria which is not considered parasitic evidences some of the same symptoms including lesions, unusual hair growth, sensations of itching crawling skin as well as paranoia, hallucinations, etc.

Current medicine still has a problem with treating people as a whole organism. Too easy to just prescribe something for this or that symptom and ignore the big picture.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:44 PM

New diseases do crop up. Legionnaire's Disease was unheard-of in 1970. Sounds like Captain Morgan's Disease is a mental illness with a skin rash component.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:44 PM

I hadn't seen Joanie in a VERY LONG TIME. But I did run into her last week at a skin (dermatology) hospital.

She / it was truly a site for psoriasis.

I wish her well!

Art













, but I ran into her at a skin hospital

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM

Just because medical science can't find "a medically known reason" for a condition doesn't mean the condition itself doesn't exist! Geezus, the arrogance of those pricks! They must be about as arrogant as Joni Mitchell herself sounds to be... ;-)

Nevertheless, I'll say this: she's done some great music, written some amazing songs, done some superb guitar work, some incredible singing, and made a huge contribution to creative art. Those I am grateful for.

She does herself no favors now by taking shots at Bob Dylan, Grace Slick, and Janis Joplin. Bad karma for her. They've done some great stuff too, Dylan most of all.

Her assessment of the wretched decline of (North) American culture since 1980, though....well, I pretty much agree with that. Wholeheartedly. (And so would Bob Dylan. He has said much the same sort of thing on several occasions.)

So she gets sort of a mixed review from me for her intemperate remarks to the interviewer. Sounds like she was in a rather combative mood at the time.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

Probably all that shit a-shootin' thru her skin Hawk.........Maybe she just needs a Gilette.........

And Art........that was absolutely the worst! Great job!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM

In the early 1950's, here in the states, our family doctor began a serious study of "psychosomatic medicine," as he called it. No quack he, the theory was that a lot of illnesses and complaints are the result of anxiety, nervous disorders, phobias and the like. Sufferers often manifest with physical symptoms which are very real and, sometimes, painful. Treat the underlying issues, and you treat the symptoms as well.

My mother was a subject at one point, during a time in which our family suffered some profound business reverses and she was under a lot of stress. Severe ulcers were the result in her case.

Now, of course, few question that such connections exist. In the case of Ms. Mitchell, it's hard to say whether this applies, without knowing her. But, whatever her issues, she sounds like a bitter person with more than a trace of resentment at the fact that Mr. Zimmerman is still getting applause and she isn't.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Vonhoother
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:24 PM

So far the "rebuttals" to Mitchell's accusation can be summed up as "Joni Mitchell is ugly, stupid, and crazy." No offense, guys, but that's not a rebuttal.

And no rebuttal is possible. Robert Zimmerman's self-directed transmutation from a middle-class suburban kid to a gritty street-wise folk troubadour modeled on Woody Guthrie is well-known and well-documented. His adoption of other artists' styles, likewise -- he copied some of Woody Guthrie's moves when Guthrie was suffering from Huntington's Disease, with tragicomic results -- on stage Dylan displayed both Woody's intentional moves and his Huntington's twitches, not being in a position to know which was which. And there's the famous story of Dave Van Ronk's version of "House of the Rising Sun," which Dylan copied and recorded, not bothering to ask Van Ronk's permission till the deed was done. Dylan's recording sank out of sight -- but a British guy named Eric Burdon heard it, recorded his own copy with his group the Animals, and got a hit with it. A nice bit of poetic justice, though it did nothing for Dave Van Ronk.

Does all this make Dylan a plagiarist? That last one for sure does, in my book. He stole Van Ronk's intellectual property and tried to make money off it, didn't he?

This is not to say he's without merit as an artist. The power of his songs is unquestionable, and most of it comes from his own stubborn genius. A lot of people wanted a hybrid of folk music and university poetry, and he was uniquely equipped to give it to them; he didn't need to steal anyone's moves or renditions. Too bad he didn't know that.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:29 PM

I have had the skin crawling feelings of and on since I was very small. as teen I just put it down to my nerve endings playing silly buggers.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM

An ailment caused by an inner mental, emotional or nervous condition is STILL a genuine ailment, whether or not it can be named, identified, cured with known drugs or surgery or other known medical means, and whether or not it had its origin in any known physical causative factors.

The medical people ought to get that through their thick heads, seems to me. Just because something doesn't meet their fossilized ideas of what constitutes "a medical problem" doesn't mean it isn't a real problem that needs some kind of treatment and resolution. They seem to feel that if they don't know how to deal with it, it isn't real. Again, I say, what arrogance.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:54 PM

Covering somebody else's song isn't "stealing" it. Did Dylan claim he wrote it?

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM

A nurse once told my ex--who was in the middle of a full-blown migraine--that she (the nurse) didn't believe in migraines. Right. I told the nurse to get another nurse who DID believe in migraines.

As for Joni's remark about Dylan: indeed he borrowed liberally. BUT, he borrowed only the best.

As for Jimi: he was a really nice guy. I met him a few times and he had class. That was before the drug shit.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: beeliner
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:21 PM

Covering somebody else's song isn't "stealing" it. Did Dylan claim he wrote it?

The Wikipedia article for the song states that Dylan claimed writer's credit when he recorded it. That is false, the album credits say Public Domain.

Arrangements cannot, as far as I know, be copyrighted, mainly because enforcement of such copyrights would be virtually impossible. How close would one have to come to someone else's arrangement to infringe?

"House" goes back to Clarence Ashley's 1933 recording, but its antecedents go back centuries.

Personally I prefer Leadbelly's uptempo version.

I've never heard VanRonk's version so I don't know how close it is to Dylan's, but it's a moot point. Anybody can record any published song. A classic recent example is the Romanian 'Numa Numa' song ("Dragostea Din Tei"), there are several virtually identical versions available.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:40 PM

For some of you who are troubled that we might not take the Dylan theft stuff seriously..............I would venture that Dylan's name appears in probably 500 or more thread titles and his songs are covered almost entirely so BELIEVE ME we have hashed the subject out before. Sorry if I offended you by being so flippant but shallow assholes like myself rarely consider that someone might be new here and not aware that we have previously beat a subject to death. On the other hand, don't expect any change in the future.

We have had FAR fewer threads about Joni Mitchell..............probably a good reason for that.


Spaw

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:44 PM

Whatever Bob Dylan's faults, the one thing you could never accuse him of, surely, is being shallow.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:47 PM

Say what? If you're referring to my post, reread it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:48 PM

And don't call me Shirley.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM

And btw Acorn.....both of the above two posts are jokes.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:04 PM

Dylan's work is not consistently "deep".

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:12 PM

Acorn4 saw "Airplane".

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Artful Codger
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM

But now I'm wondering what Art was doing at that skin hospital. ;-}

The fact that someone was a great performer doesn't mean that he was above being scummy, too, and Joni was there, so regardless of how tactless her comments might come across, they shouldn't just be dismissed as "delusional", simply because they conflict with our idol worship. With age often comes a greater objectivity, less need to conform to the herd, and often a tendency to be brutally honest (as one sees things). I'm reminded of the story of the emperor's clothes...

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM

I was hoping Spaw would bring out the classic "dried apple head" line.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 03:56 AM

Compared to Joni's amazing originality - everyone else sounds like a plagiarist!

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: beeliner
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:16 AM

Compared to Joni's amazing originality - everyone else sounds like a plagiarist!

Amazing originality? I've always sorta thought that, with a few notable exceptions, her songs sound pretty much alike.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:27 AM

Dominic Behan used to introduce his 'Patriot Game' with...You've probably heard this by Bob Dylan....with the wrong words' referring to Dylan's use of the tune for 'With god on our side'. The tune is probably older than Behan as well.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:37 AM

Of course Dylan is a plagiarist (a playgiarist, actually). He's talked about it -- apart from the obvious stealing, he uses other people's songs as a takeoff point. And Grace Slick and Janis Joplin slept around (as did Joni). She's also a crank of the Sinead O'connor school. But a genius (genius).



Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:20 AM

beeliner: That was a joke, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell -Dylan is 'a plagiarist'
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:04 AM

Plagiarist? I'd take Bob Dylan over Joni Mitchell any day of the week.

Perhaps she's also suffering from the 'green-eyed' monster too. She was OK, but only OK. Bob Dylan inspired a generation - that's cause for a large helping of jealousy in my book.

For all that, I don't wish her harm, so get well soon.