Sick Of The Democratic Party

Subject: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:17 AM

It probably started when the Republicans successfully made "liberal" a dirty word. Since then, the Democratic party has been on the defensive, seemingly trying to avoid criticism more than to present any strong direction for this country. The platforms of racial equality, equal opportunity and economic equity have been so diluted that it's hard to know what the Democratic party stands for. One of my sons has given up on the Democratic Party and opted for the Green Party, but is questioning whether that's really going to accomplish anything. I've pretty much gotten tired of the Democratic Party and question how effective the Green Party can be. If Mudcat is evidence of the philosphy of Democrats and Green Party believers, the "platform" seems to be Bush Sucks, Bush Is Evil, Bush Should Be Impaled, Bush Should be Impeached. I cannot vote positively for any party or movment that is solely "anti." I want to vote for a party that's "Pro" something. If the anti-Bush crowd thinks that endlessly ranting about how terrible he is (and I generally agree) this country will never move forward.

Maybe a new party is the answer.

It could be called The Malcontent Party.

I've been a Democrat all of my life. I think the Democratic party has an extremely high "Wuss" quotient and I find the endless complaining tiring and boring, without a firm platform of what can be done in a positive way to move this country forward.

Where are the leaders coming from? Who has a positive conviction on what needs to be done. Who can state their goals clearly without checking on the latest poll, or wondering if they will look like liberals?

The Democrats increasingly seem like crabby, poor losers with very little courage of their convictions. If they have any.

And no, I am not Martin Gibson..

I am a lifetime registered Democrat who is tired of Democrats, Green Party members and their endless attacks on Bush (no matter how justified) with so little positive ideas for turning this country around.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:21 AM

And Shambles: I didn't title this thread Obit: I have no idea how the Obit got added... couldn't have been a clone because the first post had the added Obit. Must be an oddity of the Cat. I don't think the Democratic Party is dead. I don't believe much of anything is "dead." Only sleeping.

Maybe a clone can read this post and remove the "Obit" from the title. I love it when they do that.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:22 AM

Oh, you mean like when Clinton was in and all the Republicans did was go after him and complain about how he was ruining our country?:->

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:26 AM

Good point, Kat... that always happens. But at least the Republicans had a clear agenda for the country (which I didn't support.) The Republicans stood for something. What do the Democrats stand for?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:35 AM

The same thing has happened in Australia, Jerry. The opposition has started mirroring the policies of the incumbent Liberals (actually very right wing conservatives) and we have no real opposition any more. The Greens here are very ethical, but are in the minority, and at present are critics only. The whole set up is very demoralising - and our government has a majority in the Senate and has been using it to bring in legislation to destroy workers rights and to increase security powers.

It is personally satisying to have allegiance with a less corrupt minor party, but this in effect reduces the standards in the main opposition, as people on theleft jump or are pushed out. It's a horrible catch 22.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:37 AM

I have no idea of whether it will eventually help but that's what I've been telling the Democratic Party for several years. In fact, Terry McCauliffe himself called me one day. This was after I had written that I would not contribute another dollar until the DP found its own path. I said that I don't support the party on just the basis of getting into office, that I wanted them in office in order to revitalize the country, to go back to the ideals they and we have long supported. I have told them that we need to hear bold voices that will speak truth. I have written the same thing to Howard Dean; I still have hope for him.

It is as if the Democrats, as a party and individually, have lost their compass. They seem demoralized. They remind me of hunting dogs that are milling, dogs that have lost the trail.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:44 AM

Hey, Ebbie:

They are hunting dogs that think that Bush is the trail and they're so focused on treeing him that they don't seem to have anything else on their minds.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:44 AM

A plague on both their houses, as far as I've been concerned for the last twenty years or more!

I vote for the person I consider the best, regardless of party.

The Democrats are too easily sidetracked, have no focus, and feel it necessary to fight every battle no matter its importance.

And unlike some, I think that extremism in the cause of "liberty" is a vice -- no matter where it comes from. Especially if your definition of "liberty" is a self-defined one.

I'll just keep on thinking.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:50 AM

Huzzahhh for Clones!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for changing the title so quickly. Them clones: you gotta love 'em.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM

Jerry,

While I tend to agree with you re. positive, as opposed to negative, concepts, I do feel that there are times when no recovery program can be formulated until the disease has been cured.

I too am fed up with Democrats, but not with democrats, the latter being the enlightened proportion of the population who DO believe in helping their fellow man. These people are essentially helpless in terms of cutting out the cancer of the greed motivated politician, which afflicts the USA, and those who have the power are not inclined to use it because they ARE the disease, not the surgeon. Naturally democrats, feeling disenfranchised, are frustrated as a result.

The power of the Republican Party (NOT republicans in general) seems to rest on the large number of people who will vote for anyone (no matter how crooked) who will allow them uncontrolled possession of guns, and keep their taxes low by not asking them to contribute to the health, education, or general wellbeing of their less fortunate countrymen.

This is not what one would expect of the democracy that was built on the concept "Send us your poor, your needy, and your hungry...etc" (I don't know the exact words, but the concept is clear enough).

The men who formulated those words would be ashamed at what has been done to the nation they founded, and modern America should give serious thought to the change of direction. I imagine a more honest revision would be "Keep your poor, your needy, and your hungry and take ours as well, because I've got mine, and I'm not sharing it".

Don T.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,Jeremiah Muskrat
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:03 AM

Al Gore's Victory Speech

Good Evening. I would like to thank the American people, except for the ones in my home state who know me too well, for voting for me. I wouild also like to thank Chad in Florida and my team of airborne Lawyers who made this all possible.

I will immediately reverse all of the decisions made by my former President, Bill Clinton, even though I supported them 100% when I had to. All acts of Congress done onder his administration are now suspended.

In the next few hours I will get our government all straightened out. The con man Chalabi, who duped everybody in the former administration, including me will be immediately cut off and all monies given to his phony INC will be recalled. Bin Ladin will be captured by nightfall and we will never ever have any more terrorist attacks on American Ctitzens. Saddam Hussein will be contained in a few minutes and he will not be able to support terrorisim or murder his own people ever again.

I hate to cut it short but I have 50 years of work to do before the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:09 AM

It was Emma Lazarus, of course, who formulated the verse but enough statesmen must have agreed with its concept to have it emblazoned on Lady Liberty.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I suspect that many neocons disagree violently with the very notion.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM

I told the Democrat party that I will support my friend, Tom Allen, rep. to congress but that is it. If they don't get off their asses and do something besides complain I will leave the party and go independent.

Raparie, the problem with your thinking is that no matter who the candidate is, he is still bound by his partys idiology. I like Bill Cohen, former sec. of state, republican, but I can't support his politics. At the same time, I detest Ted Kennedy, but I agree with his politics. So, as long as I don't have to sleep with him, or go somewhere with him driving, I will hold my nose and support him.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:16 AM

Kendall, you are a wise man.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:19 AM

I second that Kendall. In this case "The song, not the singer" seems about right.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM

Interesting thread, Jerry. Questioning party loyalty is a natural outgrowth of breaking any habit. Chicago and Illinois have been Democratic outposts for years. We have an old line Democratic mayor, Dem Governor and U.S. Senators. I have voted for all of them. Years ago, I used to help my Democratic precinct captain because it might mean by street would get snow plowed before others.

But as time has gone on, it's not the party, it's the people. I have voted Democrat and I have voted Republican and I will continue to do that as I see fit. It's really a game of "Measure the candidate's bullshit." Guess and win or guess and lose.

Pissing and moaning is just pissing and moaning. You have nailed it when it comes to all of it that goes on here. Venting on a web forum might relieve your tension about Bush, but if that is all you are doing about it, you are really wasting your own time more than any one else's. Until the time for an election, wouldn't it better to work towards cohesiveness than the ongoing diatribes of division?

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM

Who ever woulda thunk, Martin: You and I are of one accord on this issue. It's time to start challenging whatever party you claim allegiance to (I've seen jimmyt express criticism of the Republican party, as a Republican, too.) Even better yet, don't let any party think that they own you. They are supposed to represent US, not the reverse.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:38 AM

That's why so many here are just so ignorant, Jerry. That's really been my message all along. Many have had to be told this in some very strong language, but they ended up hearing it, and now they are pissed off that it's been said here.

Mudcat is no longer a safe harbor for radical left wingers. They are my greatest detractors and they are mad because over time, that safe harbor here has truly been changing.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:45 AM

I'd prefer "misguided" to ignorant, Martin. I have some dear friends who have become so fixated on Bush that I wonder if they've lost sight of working toward positive solutions. I propose the question, "When Bush is no longer President, then what?" That's the purpose of this thread.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:48 AM

"O wad some power the giftee gie us to see oursels as ithers see us."

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:01 PM

George Clooney, in a recent NPR interview said that conservatives accuse liberals of not having a sense of humor, and he thought they had a point. I do too. All this getting offended at stuff means they're vulnerable and they ARE always on the defensive, always reacting, always letting conservatives drive and being pissed off about speed, the route, and where they're going.

They need to stop complaining about where the conservatives are taking us and come up with a plan to get the keys back. They need to believe that's going to happen, and perhaps along the way, they might be able to get the conservaties to stop for a sandwich or a pee or maybe to see what's going on at Reptile World.

Bottom line is that whenever someone's reacting, someone else is controlling. I wish the Dems would risk being leaders again.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:05 PM

In the last few years, the newish Republican strategy of appealing primarily to diverse special interest groups and making the election a referendum on personality and emotional hot-buttons has gotten the Democrats seriously off balance. Several major Democrats have declined to run-- not wishing to endure a couple years of negativity and name-calling.

   NEITHER party has obvious, qualified front-line candidates ready to run for president right now...though Hillary Clinton's name has been bandied about a lot. I'm not sure she'll choose to run, as I can visualize the Republican against her...not against her competence or experience or positions, but against her personality, sound bites and 'being female generally'.

The only Democrat with an 'aura' right now may be Barack Obama, and I'm not sure he is ready...and I'm not sure he could win in needed areas due to his ethnicity.

The Democrats have a hard choice to make.....join the Republicans in negative, mud-slinging, narrow focus campaigning, or stick to 'serious issues' with candidates who at least TRY to be decent, knowledgeable leaders...and hope Bush & Co. make enough big blunders (and that the economy takes a bad turn in the election year!)

Sadly, even if everyone in the country decides Bush DID 'suck', the Republicans can just say.."hey, that's over! We have someone new whom we swear you can trust.." and go right on with the same tactics.

   The one thing I fear most is having John McCain run against a mediocre Democrat....I really might have to vote Republican for the first time ever.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:16 PM

I hear that the idea of Condoleeza Rice and Jeb Bush - in that order - is being floated.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: number 6
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:19 PM

Thanks for posting this thread Jerry ... interesting ... the same could be applied to current Canadian politics ... which also is 'running amuck' .. as I stated in a previous thread, the rest of the free world is right in line behind you guys.

sIx

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:32 PM

Hey Ebbie:

Ivory soap isn't the only thing that floats..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:32 PM

Sorry... I just couldn't resist that one...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Alba
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:33 PM

Aye Ebbie indeed. Rabbie said it well.
Personally I am sick of Politics at the moment:>) This too shall pass..
Jude

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: leftydee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:34 PM

As a life-time lefty, I find the Democratic Party losing it's appeal. There is a movement to the right that makes the Dems indistinguishable from the Repubs. We have become a country governed for and by the wealthy. John Kerry did not win because the un-decideds could see no real difference in policy or philosophy. When Howard Dean looked like he might strike a chord with America both parties trashed him as unpresidential for saying "yippee!" or some such. If there are Dems out there with liberal ideals they are hiding. Even Hillary is caught up in a flag burning bill. I don't think flag burning is necessarily a good thing but there , sure as hell, are better things for our congress to worry about.

I think the whole Neo-Con agenda is totally unpatriotic. They espouse a philosophy of greed and class domination. This government for and by business interests was called fascism during WWII. Sadly, the democrats are going with the program. It sickens me. As a minority , if you can't change things , you can, at least, point out what's going on. The Dems have become eunichs.

So now what? Where do we go from here? The Green Party has proven itself to be a waste of time and resources. Can liberals get the Democratic Party back? America is a beautiful idea.. not a bunch of people surrounded by borders. The idea of America, the one that says "give me you tired, your poor....." needs defending. We need a grass roots effort that won't tolerate the "going along " by the Dems. We need to do it in our neighborhoods. Support good people that do not want politics as a career but do the right thing.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM

There are a couple of things that we are trying in our community.

1) Encouraging people of like mind (i.e. people who recognize a problem, people who are enthusiastic about the efforts needed to find solutions, people who are open to input no matter from where) to run for the City Assembly, the local School Board and State legislature.

2) Encouraging those people already in the system to work within their ideals, get behind them, publicise their ideas and their accomplishments.

3) Setting up town hall type meetings and connecting with others already in existence, recognizing that no one person has all the answers and that we all take sustenance from each other.

4) Writing letters, speaking loudly and clearly, encouraging others to do the same.

5) Watching for other opportunities as they arise.

I would love to get more ideas from Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

Oh - there's something else we are doing with forethought: Getting behind community projects that we see as necessary and do-able and for the future. We want to become known as people with vision, not as A-ginners.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

No, Kendall. I'm just sick and tired of big-D Democrats and big-R Republicans (and big-L Libertarians and big-C Communists and big-S Socialists and...).

I will vote for the person, not the party. Always have, even when I lived in Illinois, troublesome though that could be.

I grew up poor, but we weren't allowed to know it. Just that the money wasn't there for a lot of things, and my mother would put off getting new glasses if her kids needed them. Looking back, I now know why she so often ate as little as she did.

We went through college courtesy of the Illinois National Guard, the GI Bill (such as it was for Vietnam Era vets), National Defense Student Loans, Work-Study, and even a small grant (and I mean SMALL). Everyone I know who had a student loan paid it back in full, too.

Now I'm making more money that I ever thought I would and I only hope that I'm worth it. And I'm worried about the kids coming up -- if they'll have the opportunities I did for education. I'm concerned about the national debt, which is growing at an alarming rate and which we do NOT "owe to ourselves" any more -- and how, when the government is cutting its income by lowering taxes, it will ever be repaid. I see young families around here buying multi-hundred-thousand-dollar houses and only paying the interest on the loan, and wonder what will happen when times get bad again.

It seems to me that both parties are ignoring some serious problems while tossing slime back and forth. Both seem to have lost sight of the fact that "all politics is local" and no longer work for the community, however large or small.

A 79 year old retired railroad worker told me Saturday that he thinks that the Democrats will "roar back" in this years elections. Me, I'd rather a bunch of people who would work for the community, regardless of party, would get into power.

If John Kerry ran against John McCain, I'd vote for McCain. If, on the other hand, BOB KerrEy ran against John McCain, well, I'd have a real problem....

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:00 PM

I'm going to vote straight democratic in the midterms. The pubs have not impressed me and I think Congress needs some shaking up. In 2008, I don't know. If the pubs can put forth a palatable candidate, I'd vote for him. I too do not understand how the dem party just completely fell to pieces after 2004. They definitely seem to be in disarray, some strange funk. Hard to believe or explain.

Even so, I'd rather have them assume the majority in Congress and put some brakes on Bush. Bush DOES need to be impeached--he's broken too laws for us to keep ignoring it. To not do so because the dems aren't offering a unified front is the fault of the Constitution and not the dems--although I DO wish they would get it together. We can't ignore the continued law-breaking--I'm sorry.

But if the dems don't take the midterms, it won't matter.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:04 PM

Juneau's Pat Henry wrote:

"We're biting off more than we can chew
We're biting off more than we can chew
We're biting off more than we can chew
Me and you. So what're we going to do.

    We'll just leave it to our children
    We'll just leave it to our children
    We'll just leave it to our children
    Little buggers...

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:28 PM

My brother, who's a solid Republican who votes for whoever he thinks is the best, feels VERY strongly about term limits (12 years for both houses).

I'm much more radical. I think that the US Government should be decentralized.

Leave the Supreme Court in DC.

Move the legislators back into their home districts and make 'em meet and work electronically (yes, it can be done and done securely because it's already being done). Pay the legislators the prevailing wage in their district and require voter approval for any raise. Their benefits are whatever is prevalent in their district. (Secretaries, legislative assistants, etc. get the same pay and benefits as any federal employee.)

Move the White House to (or close to) the geographic center of the US. Belle Fourche, South Dakota, I think it is. I'm certain they could use the money. Each Department (State, Defense, etc.) moves to a different State -- Agriculture might move to Kansas, for example. Research institutions run by the government stay where they are.

This would play hell with lobbyists. DC would become museum central. One bomb couldn't wipe out the Congress. Legislators would be where their constituents could keep track of them. Costs go down. And I don't find anything in the Constitution to prevent it.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM

Makes sense to me, Rap..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: leftydee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 03:52 PM

Me too Rap!

I honestly think that the drafters of the constitution would be appalled by the career (almost all lawyers) politicians. I think serving was intended to be something you did as a service to your community, just as serving on the board of your local YMCA or fund raising for the local youth sports or music programs, etc is viewed today. Instead, it's now an elitist club that cares little for it's contituency and only worries about how to get re elected and continues to sop up the gravy.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:09 PM

Lots of lawyers among the founding fathers -- Jefferson, Madison and others.

The Congressional Reference Service on the occupations and education of the 108th Congress:

Occupations

As has been true in previous Congresses, law and business are the dominant professions in the 108th Congress. Other professions include public service, education, agriculture, and journalism. A closer look at the prior occupations of Members of the 108th Congress also shows:

eight medical doctors (including a psychiatrist), three dentists, two
veterinarians, an optometrist, three nurses, one pharmacist, and three
psychologists;

five ministers;

35 mayors, 13 state Governors, 11 Lieutenant Governors (including two
Delegates), two state first ladies (one of whom was also the first lady of the United States) and one territorial first lady, two former cabinet secretaries, two state supreme court justices, and a federal judge;

a president of the National Conference on State Legislatures and 274
(232 in the House and 42 in the Senate) former state legislators;

112 congressional staffers (including 10 congressional pages), 14 White House staffers or fellows, several former executive branch employees, a former aide to the Secretary of Defense, a former deputy administrator in the Veterans' Administration, a former deputy assistant Secretary of State, and a former ambassador;

four police officers (including a Capitol policeman), two state troopers, two sheriffs, two volunteer firemen, two probation officers, and a border patrol chief;

two FBI agents and one CIA agent;

two physicists, two chemists, a biomedical researcher, a geologist, and a microbiologist;

six Peace Corps volunteers;

an astronaut, a professional magician, a semi-professional musician, two broadcasters, a television sportscaster, a television reporter, a
motivational speaker, a commercial airlines pilot, a corporate pilot, a flight school instructor, a major league baseball player, a major league football player (who was also a college football coach), a florist, a librarian, two vintners, two auctioneers, two jewelry makers, a steelworker, a carpenter, an ironworker, a paper mill worker, a meat cutter, a river boat captain, a hotel bellhop, a taxicab driver, a race track blacksmith, and a "jackeroo" (cowboy) on a sheep-cattle ranch.

Education

As has been true in previous Congresses, the Members of the 108th Congress are well educated. At least 399 Members of the House and 97 Senators hold bachelor's degrees; 124 Members of the House and 19 Senators have master's degrees; 175 Members of the House and 59 Senators hold law degrees; 18 Members of the House have doctoral
degrees; and 11 Members of the House and three Senators hold medical degrees.

In addition, there are two graduates of the U. S. Military Academy, one in the House and one in the Senate; one Senator is a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy; one Representative (a woman) is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy; five Representatives and three Senators were Rhodes Scholars; one Representative was a Fulbright Scholar, and one was a Marshall Scholar.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:34 PM

Guest, AR282, voting straight Democratic is the lazy and easy way out. Take the time to figure out where candidates stand.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:35 PM

Right on, Martin.

Anything less cheapens your vote.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:56 PM

Until such time as Representatives and Senators and 'Party' people have a country they want to make great again instead of just control and milk for all they can then give to their friends in business--until they have the stones to tell lobbyists to "get the hell out of my office", the country will suffer.

We have the same damned shite happening here. We have an election coming up in which again I will mar my ballot and possibly write a few words to clarify my non-vote. I am disgusted that people run for office, perceiving it to be the road to riches, the road to power. It's been one helluva long time since an economically poor President or Prime Minister left office. Or politician for that matter. What is it about Washington and Ottawa that turns people into thieves, crooks and uncaring sods?

What is there about power that allows the likes of Bush to circumvent the Constitution or the likes of Clinton to disgrace the Oval Office by having some teenybopper suck his dink in it? What is there about that--when Americans do not see that the behaviours are disgraceful and not worthy of either the Office or the Nation. What is it when people think that Clinton's fiasco was just a minor thing--and yes, many folks here have stated that--and yet he cheapened the Oval Office as few have done, ever. And the clown in power now who has difficulty saying words that make sense because his thinking is scattered all over everywhere and he can't bring the thoughts together without a speech writer. Or is it that we have all come to expect and accept these behaviours from those with whom we have entrusted our votes? Good luck to you. You need it as much as we do.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:35 PM

Thanks, Rap.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:43 PM

Jerry, good thread full of interesting comments. A few months ago, I said to several people that it would be almost impossible for the Democrats to not take the White House next election decisively. I now have some questions as to whether they will manage to foul up this and manage to get another Republican elected. I have my personal reasons of why I personally would like to see a democrat elected to this next term, but I would like it to be a candidate who represents some positive issues. I really don't want to be critical but Howard Dean is hardly a uniter in the party in my opinion. I would love to see a middle of the road candidate in either party step forward and take the nomination.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:48 PM

Most Americans are tired of hearing about Clinton and this "only a blow job" BS. Here is a partial list of Slick Willy's transgressions and some by his cohorts, complete only until Jun24, 1996:



BILL CLINTON


(1) Used State Police for personal purposes.

(2) Directed State Police to fabricate incriminating evidence
against a political opponent: Terry Reed.

(3) Conspired with David Hale and Jim McDougal to defraud the
Small Business Administration.

(4) Was complicit in the shipment of drugs through Arkansas.

(5) Allowed laudering of drug money through ADFA.

(6) Appointed and protected Arkansas Medical Examiner Fahmy Malak
who repeatedly obstructed justice by declaring murders as
"suicides" or "accidents."

(7) Has never accounted for his actions during 40 days behind the
Iron Curtain during the Vietnam War.

(8) Tipped off Governor Tucker about upcoming criminal referral.

(9) Violated Arkansas campaign finance laws.

(10) Violated his oath ofoffice to uphold the Constitution by
signing into law an ex post facto law, a retroactive tax
increase.

(11) Fired RTC chiefAlbert Casey to allow his friend Roger
Altman to monitor and block Whitewater investigations.

(12) Fired FBI director William Sessions to prevent an
autonomous FBI from investigating the Foster suicide and from
resisting cooperation in the Filegate operation.

(13) Fired all U.S. Attorneys to appoint Paula Casey to prevent
Judge David Hale from testifying against Clinton.

(14) Offered State Troopers federal jobs in return for their
silence about Clinton's crimes.

(15) Blocked Justice Department indictments after Inspector
General Sherman Funk found "criminal violations of the Privacy
Act provable beyond reasonable doubt" when former Bush employee
files were searched and leaked to the press.

(16) Appointed friend and now-convicted felon Webster Hubbell to
number 3 position in Justice Department in order to be able to
block Whitewater criminal referrals.

(17) Blocked the criminal trial of Representative Ford, a
Tennessee Democrat.

(18) Appointed a campaign activist to head the Commodity Futures
Trading Commission, without the mandated "advice and consent" of
the Senate, to derail a probe of his and Hillary's financial
dealings.
Bill Clinton is under investigation by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr.


HILLARY CLINTON



(1) Took a $100,000 bribe, camouflaged as futures trades,
from Tyson Foods Inc.

(2) Speculated in Health Care industry futures while overseeing
legislative reform of same.

(3) Failed to correct false testimony by co-defendant Ira
Magaziner in Health Care trial.

(4) Obstructed justice by ordering the shredding of Vince
Foster's documents in the Rose Law Firm.

(5) Ordered members of the Health Care Task Force to shred
documents that were the target of a court probe.

(6) Ordered the removal of documents from Vince Foster's office.

(7) Told aides to lie about their removal of documents from
Foster's office

(8) Obstructed justice by keeping her billing records, a document
sought under subpoena, in the White House residence.

(9) Lied to investigators about her knowledge about billing
records.

(10) Lied to investigators about her involvement in the Castle
Grande land flip con.

(11) Ordered the use of the FBI to discredit Travel Office
employees.

(12) Lied to investigators about her involvement in the firing of
Travel Office Employees.


IRA MAGAZINER, Hillary Clinton Senior Advisor



(1) Violated federal law when he held Health Care Task Force
Meetings in secret and refused to release documents

(2) Lied in court about the composition of the Health Care
Task Force.
U.S. Attorney Eric Holder found insufficient evidence for indictment of Ira Magaziner.


BERNARD NUSSBAUM, Former White House Counsel



(1) Obstructed justice in the Foster suicide investigation by
blocking access, removing documents, lying about his removal of
documents, and by retrieving Foster's pager from Park Police.

(2) Attempted to quash a Whitewater investigation at the RTC
through White House liaisons.
Nussbaum has resigned and is under investigation for lying to Congress.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, Senior Advisor



(1) Took a $600,000 loan below market interest and with
insufficient collateral from Nations Bank, a bank having business
before the Clinton Administration.

(2) Lied to Congress during Whitewater hearings.

(3) Attempted to have Whitewater investigator Jay Stephens at the
RTC fired.


MIKE ESPY, Former Agriculture Secretary



(1) Took bribes from Tyson Foods Inc., which was under regulatory
control of his Agriculture Department.
Espy has resigned and is under investigation by a Special Counsel


ROGER ALTMAN, Deputy Secretary of the Treasury


(1) Lied to Congress during Whitewater hearings. (2) Lied to Congress about having lied to Congress. (3) Instructed Ellen Kulka and Jack Ryan at the RTC to block the Whitewater investigation by L. Jean Lewis.

Roger Altman was forced to resign.

RON BROWN, Former Commerce Secretary



(1) Has taken bribes from almost everybody. Says it is part of
the way Washington works. The allegations are too numerous
and complicated to be detailed here.
Ron Brown was still under investigation by an Independent Counsel when he died in a plane crash in 1996. The investigation continues.


LES ASPIN, Former Secretary of Defense



(1) Through criminal negligence was responsible for the death
of Army Rangers in Somalia. Has never been held accountable
in public hearings.
Les Aspin has resigned and is deceased.


WILLIAM KENNEDY, DAVID WATKINS, PATSY THOMASSON:



(1) Fabricated charges against White House Travel Office
personnel to have the business taken over by Clinton friends.

(2) Coerced FBI and IRS agents into complicity with this
scheme.

Kennedy and Watkins have resigned.


CATHERINE CORNELIUS, Travel Office employee



(1) Removed documents from White House Travel Office.
Because those documents later became the subject ofa trial
against Office Director Billy Dale, that could amount to
obstruction ofjustice.


PATSY THOMASSON, Director of White House Administration

(1) Lied to Congress about the composition of the Health Care Task Force and the size of its budget. (2) Obstructed justice when she removed documents from the office of Vince Foster.


MARGARET WILLIAMS, Chief of Staff to the First Lady



(1) Obstructed justice when she removed documents from the office
of Vince Foster.

(2) Lied to Congress about removing those documents.
Maggy Williams is under investigation by Independent Counsel.


JOSHUA STEINER, Treasury Department Employee.



(1) Lied to Congress about conversations with White House
personnel about the RTC. (He also lied to his diary, but that is
not a crime.)

Joshua Steiner has resigned.


LLOYD CUTLER, Former White House Counsel



(1) Lied to Congress about the contents of redacted documents.

(2) Attempted to withhold vital information from Congress, a
felony.

(3) Obtained a confidential Treasury report and showed it to
witnesses before they testified before Congress in the Whitewater
in 1970. Has never been indicted for this crime which was similar to what the
Watergate Plumbers spent time in jail for.


BRUCE LINDSEY, Senior Advisor



(1) As treasurer for the Clinton gubernatorial campaign in
1990, he signed withdrawals from Peny County Bank, the president
of which has pled guilty to conspiring to conceal these
withdrawals from the IRS and FEC.
Bruce Lindsey is an unindicted co-conspirator in the trial of the owners of Perry County Bank.


MARIAN BENETT, USIA Inspector General



(1) Covered up credit-card fraud by USIA Inspector General staff.


FEDERICO PENA, Secretary of Transportation



(1) State and federal contracts were awarded to companies in
which he had a financial interest.

The Justice Department found insufficient evidence to appoint
a Special Counsel.


HENRY CISNEROS, Secretary of HUD



(1) Lied to the FBI about payments to former lover.
Under investigation by Special Counsel.


JANET RENO, Attorney General



(1) Fabricated charges of child molestation against the Branch
Davidians in Waco, Texas.

(2) Ordered the use of military equipment against citizens of
the United States

(3) Ordered the use of chemical agents against citizens of the
United States.


ROBERT REICH, Secretary of Labor



(1) Lied to Congress when he wrote that there were no memos
circulating in the Labor Department instructing staffto gather
political material against the Contract with America. Such memos
were later published. Under investigation by Congress.


DONNA SHALALA, Secretary of Health and Human Services



(1) As Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin at Madison
instituted speech codes which were found to be unconstitutional
in federal court. Instituted thought police star chamber proceed
-ings to drive politically incorrect people off campus.


CAROL BROWNER, EPA Administrator



(1) Used the EPA to campaign against Republicans running on
the Contract with America, an illegal use of the executive
branch for political campaigning.

Carol Browner is under investigation by Congress.


ROBERTA ACHTENBERG, Former Assitant Secretary of HUD



(1) Violated the First Amendment when she ordered HUD
lawyers to silence citizens who spoke out against planned
housing projects.

(2) Exceeded her authority when she had HUD staff threaten
Allentown County to withdraw an "Use of English language
encouraged" ordinance.

Roberta Achtenberg resigned to run for Mayor of San Francisco, a
race which she lost.


DEVAL PATRICK, Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights



(1) Used extortion to force banks to give preferential
treatment to minorities.

Congress is investigating the possibility of impeachment based on
abuse of power.


BRUCE BABBIT, Secretary of the Interior



(1) Paid a penalty for violating campaign finance laws during his
1988 presidential campaign.


HAZEL O'LEARY, Energy Secretary



(1) Abused taxpayer money for extravagant travels around the
world.

Hazel O'Leary is under investigation by Congress.


WILLIAM PERRY, Secretary of Defense



(1) Intervened in a Chinese trade deal on behalf of a business
partner.


CRAIG LIVINGSTONE, Chief of White House Security



(1) Was seen carrying a box from Foster's office the morning
after Vince Foster died.

(2) Ordered confidential FBI background files on Hillary
Clinton's political enemies, a violation of the privacy act.

Craig Livingstone is currently on paid leave and has been unable to
pass FBI criminal background checks, and the White House has
admitted that 11 unnamed White House staffers have had recent
drug use. Unsubstantiated allegations of murder, treason,
and conspiracy have been omitted from the above list.
In light of this record, it is appropriate to mention those Clinton Cabinet Secretaries who are not under investigation and have never had criminal allegations raised against them:

RICHARD RILEY, Secretary of Education
WARREN CHRISTOPHER, Secretary of State

In this administration these secretaries must be considered beacons of morality.

(Sources: published accounts in The Washington Weekly)
Copyright (c) 1996 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com)

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:51 PM

I have no doubt that Bush's rap sheet will look much like Clinton's.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

Peek at Reagan's. Look up the ones without a notation.

By the end of his term, 138 Reagan administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved, the record of his administration was the worst ever."

1. Lyn Nofziger--White House Press Secretary - Convicted on charges of illegal lobbying of White House in Wedtech scandal. The lobbying would not have been illegal had he not been White House Press Secretary.

2. Michael Deaver, Reagan's Chief of Staff, received three years' probation and was fined one hundred thousand dollars after being convicted for lying to a congressional subcommittee and a federal grand jury about his lobbying activities after leaving the White House. Same as with Lyn Nofziger.

3. James Watt, Reagan's Secretary of the Interior was indicted on 41 felony counts for using connections at the Department of Housing and Urban Development to help his private clients seek federal funds for housing projects in Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Watt conceded that he had received $500,000 from clients who were granted very favorable housing contracts after he had intervened on their behalf. Watt was eventually sentenced to five years in prison and 500 hours of community service.

4. John Poindexter, Reagan's national security advisor, guilty of five criminal counts involving conspiracy to mislead Congress, obstructing congressional inquiries, lying to lawmakers, used "high national security" to mask deceit and wrong-doing...

5. Richard Secord pleaded guilty to a felony charge of lying to Congress over Iran-Contra. Appointed by William Casey to assist Oliver North.

6. Elliott Abrams was appointed by President Reagan in 1985 to head the State Department's Latin American Bureau. He was closely linked with ex-White House aide Lt. Col. Oliver North's covert movement to aid the Contras. Working for North, Abrams coordinated inter-agency support for the contras and helped solicit illegal funding from foreign powers as well as domestic contributors. Abrams agreed to cooperate with Iran-Contra investigators and pled guilty to two charges reduced to misdemeanors. He was sentenced in 1991 to two years probation and 100 hours of community service but was pardoned by President George Bush...

7. Robert C. McFarlane, Reagan's National Security Advisor, pled guilty to four misdemeanors and was sentenced to two years probation and 200 hours of community service. He was also fined $20,000. He received a blanket pardon from President George Bush...

8. Alan D. Fiers was the Chief of the Central Intelligence Agency's Central American Task Force. Fiers pled guilty in 1991 to two counts of withholding information from congress about Oliver North's activities and the diversion of Iran arms sale money to aid the Contras. He was sentenced to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service. Alan Fiers received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President Bush.

9. Thomas G. Clines: convicted of four counts of tax-related offenses for failing to report income from the operations;

10. Carl R. Channel - Office of Public Diplomacy , partner in International Business- first person convicted in the Iran/Contra scandal, pleaded guilty of one count of defrauding the United States

11. Richard R. Miller - Partner with Oliver North in IBC, a Office of Public Diplomacy front group, convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States.

12. Frank Gomez

13.. Donald Fortier

14. Clair George was Chief of the CIA's Division of Covert Operations under President Reagan. George was convicted of lying to two congressional committees in 1986. George faced a maximum five year federal prison sentence and a $20,000 fine for each of the two convictions. Jurors cleared George of five other charges including two counts of lying to a federal grand jury. Clair George received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President George Bush...

15. Rita Lavelle was indicted, tried and convicted of lying to Congress and served three months of a six-month prison sentence.

16. Philip Winn - Assistant HUD Secretary. Pleaded guilty to one count of scheming to give illegal gratuities.

17. Thomas Demery - Assistand HUD Secretary - pleaded guilty to steering HUD subsidies to politically connected donors.

18. Deborah Gore Dean - executive assistant to Samuel Pierce - indicted on thirteen counts, three counts of conspiracy, one count of accepting an illegal gratuity, four counts of perjury, and five counts of concealing articles. She was convicted on twelve accounts. She appealed and prevailed on several accounts but the convictions for conspiracy remained.

19. Catalina Villaponda - Former US Treasurer

20. Joseph A. Strauss - Accepting kickbacks from developers

21. Oliver North - He was indicted on sixteen felony counts and on May 4, 1989, he was convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents (by his secretary, Fawn Hall, on his instructions). He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service. His conviction was later overturned.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM

Well, well, well...

I been sick of Dems it seems forever, Jerry, but that ain't no reason to go blasting the GREEN Party as well...

No, the Green Party isn't a party of no ideas!!!

Maybe you jkust don't know much about the Green Party... Try GOOGLE, then come back and say that we don't have ideas...

A major part of the problem we, as Greens, have is stopping the blood=letting that is occuring in our country from Goerge Bush's policies which seem to all favor the corporate interests ovetr the interests of the working man...

So, yeah, right now it may seem that we ***only*** are anti-Bush policies but if we can stop the bleeding there's a lot gopod that this country can do...

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......

Don't blame us for Bush!!!!

That's yer guy's (Dems) fault, not ours!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM

Kermit the Frog is the leader of the Green party. The party's official song is, "It's Not Easy being Green."

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:34 PM

No, it's very easy being Green, Martin...

It takes no courage to be a Republican though... None whats so ever... All ya' gott be able to do is nof yer head like them plastic dolls that some folks keep in the back windows of their cars...

So sound very capable of being a Repub...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:39 PM

I'm not. I'm an Independent. You can't live in Illinois and be a staunch Republican. Stay on the fringe, bobert. Your vote means nothing.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM

I have been on the 'fringe' all my life.