BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?

Subject: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:37 PM

Right you 'orrible little man. No job, eh? I'll teach you to get a job! You WILL scrub lavatories, paint walls, pick up litter and used condoms (oh, sorry Dave) or starve to death. Many a man in my old regiment did worse.

Oh, what, 2.5 million like you and only half a million jobs? Not my problem you horrible little man. Not an excuse. Go and get a job. Answers permitted in this man's army are "Yes Sir!" or "No excuse Sir".




Can there be ANY excuse for any honest man not now to invest in a sniper rifle and a flat overlooking the Houses of Parliament?

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:40 PM

?? Those of us on this side of the pond might need a little clarification...

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

"Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?"

Does that mean that all the Labour MP's will be put into a camp?

What a great idea :-) Send them to Butlins :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 05:49 PM

?? Those of us on this side of the pond might need a little clarification...

It's OK he's just talking drivel as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

Mrzzy = Latest Con Dem wheeze is to make unemployed do Unpaid work or have their benefits withdrawn . Having already started laying off a good percentage of the work force .

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM

No, he's not. I heard it on the news too.


Forced, Compulsory 'Volunteer' work...


HELLLOOOO, DAVE!! There are NO fucking jobs in the first place!

Tell you what, let's get those criminal, fraudulent, cheating, 'stealing from the public purse to fund their expenses robbers', arrogant, hypocritical swines who DARE to call themselves politicians to do hard grinding manual compulsory foul nasty work instead, shall we?

Oh, and by the way, I've already cleaned up used condoms, in the little Dartmoor village of Horrabridge, where even years back the kids were swinging on lamposts, wrecking the park and benches and using their unused condoms down the pretty little path that led to the edge of the River Walkham, just beneath the ancient 14th century bridge....

Ian Duncan-Smith put my blood pressure up when he was last inpower' but this time, he's making the pressure sizzle and spit out of my mouth!

WHO THE FUCK DO THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE????!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:48 AM

I've just been wondering if this measure will join up with the housing benefit stuff and result in the creation of workhouses ... you know it makes sense ....

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,Ghost of Christmas Future
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:01 AM

The clerk, in letting Scrooge's nephew out, had let two other people in. They were portly gentlemen, pleasant to behold, and now stood, with their hats off, in Scrooge's office. They had books and papers in their hands, and bowed to him.

'Scrooge and Marley's, I believe,' said one of the gentlemen,   referring to his list. 'Have I the pleasure of addressing Mr Scrooge, or Mr Marley?'

'Mr Marley has been dead these seven years,' Scrooge replied. 'He died seven years ago, this very night.'

'We have no doubt his liberality is well represented by his surviving partner,' said the gentleman, presenting his credentials.

'It certainly was, for they had been two kindred spirits. At the ominous word liberality, Scrooge frowned, and shook his head, and handed the credentials back.

'They are. Still,' returned the gentleman,' I wish I could say they were not.'

'The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?' said Scrooge.

'At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, 'it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.'
'Are there no prisons?"

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?'

'Both very busy, sir.'

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'

'Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,' returned the gentleman, 'a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'

'Nothing!' Scrooge replied.

'You wish to be anonymous?'

'I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. 'Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

---

Poster identified as Crow Sister, who promised me she was going to stop posting under alternate names.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:12 AM

>Can there be ANY excuse for any honest man not now to invest in a sniper rifle and a flat overlooking the Houses of Parliament?

Or woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,CrowSister
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:26 AM

promised me she was going to stop posting under alternate names."

Nicely put.. As other people won't know this, I got pulled up once for posting joke messages on *a joke thread*.

Otherwise, the Dickensian spectre's vision certainly feels fitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:33 AM

For those across this is the Story

When did street cleaning and painting stop being paid jobs and become work for volunteers?

Do employed street cleaners now go in fear of their jobs because they will be given as unpaid work to others?

If you are paying money to people on the condition that they do work, why not create the job and employ them to do it - or is it that you would then have to pay the minimum wage?

And why street cleaning and painting? Why not as MPs and reduce their numbers? That way we would ensure that unemployed people had a voice in parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:40 AM

Are they going to brand/tatoo people's forhead's?

Will this special workforce who can't find paid jobs so have to do unpaid ones wear a special uniform, so everyone else can poke fun at them and go "Hey, LOSER!", having been 'educated/encouraged/brainwashed to do so by The Corporate Political Bastards who are now in power?

I mean??????????????????????????

Yes, Crow Sister, Scrooge is alive and well, as I said in some other post in some other thread, but can't for the life of me recall which one...Thanks for posting that.


By the way, Richard...I think this idea came from The New Labour labour camp originally....and that doesn't surprise me either. Basically, they're all the same, no matter their team colours...

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:44 AM

Interesting that not a single word has been mentioned on the BBC News about this today... ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:49 AM

If they are looking for suggestions, the river bank down from where it cuts the corner of my land down towards the next village is in a bit of a state. Difficult to get a dredger to (although some oinks have managed to get enough litter down there,) and i was wondering..

Where do you apply to have a task force of these people come to work? I reckon councils should put out feelers to the local communities for ideas of what needs doing.

Sorry, have I missed the point again?

This idea of 100% employment was a wonderful post war idea but fatally flawed. Wilson was the last to advocate it as a virtue whilst in power, (Foot liked it, but never got the keys to No. 10.)

Nice to see the coalition is borrowing some socialist as well as conservative dogma in its ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:56 AM

Although I've seen only superficial commentary on a UK plan, it would appear that the earliest "modern" implementation of this policy may have been in Germany ca. 1938. They didn't directly say you had to work for nothing, but declining any job "offered" to you sent you to a labour camp where you then did work for nothing (for the brief time until you died, for the majority sent to most of the "camps").

The program quite successfully eliminated the "unemployment problem," since "convicts" weren't even counted - or so I'm told.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:01 AM

"Otherwise, the Dickensian spectre's vision certainly feels fitting."

Nice one CS.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:10 AM

Aye.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: C-flat
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:55 AM

HELLLOOOO, DAVE!! There are NO fucking jobs in the first place!

Ah!,.. Yes!,.. But!..
Massive cuts in the public sector budgets will lead to local authority job losses and reduction of services.
What better way to fill that gap than with forced labour that's already being paid for from the benefits budget!

You can see the way their minds are working...

Quite scary...

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:16 AM

So lets see...

A road sweeper loses his/her paid job, and is then forced to do the same job for no pay?

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM

Exactly.

You got it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:53 AM

"Where do you apply to have a task force of these people come to work? I reckon councils should put out feelers to the local communities for ideas of what needs doing.

Sorry, have I missed the point again?"


***THESE*** people???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: C-flat
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:37 AM

Of course there will be hidden costs to this cunning plan.

Conscripted labour will require training and supervision. But, on a more positive note, the supervisors will be specially trained to identify those who demonstrate an unwillingness to participate, negative attitude or general disruptive behaviour and much of the training costs will be re-couped by stopping benefits to those lazy, work-shy chancers!!

Win! win!

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:30 AM

William Wilberforce later took on the cause of abolition in 1787 after the formation of the Committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, in which he led the parliamentary campaign to abolish the slave trade in the British Empire with the Slave Trade Act 1807. He continued to campaign for the abolition of slavery in the British Empire, which he lived to see in the Slavery Abolition Act 1833. Interestingly, one of his principal arguments was economic inefficiency.

The last known form of enforced servitude of adults (villeinage) had disappeared in Britain at the beginning of the 17th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:43 AM

I'm with the sentiment Richard but at the moment the plan is only to enforce it if you want to claim unemployment benefit.

Not quite the same as being forced to do it, full stop

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

An outlaw could not simultaneously be a villein.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:29 PM

Just to be serious for a while... Although of course Richard III was not being serious, as somebody who talks of murdering politicians in his opening comment is being either ironic, symbolic or plain talking bollocks;

Whilst I have not read or heard of any labour camps anywhere other than in Richard's head, it is a fact that the government are considering having people earning unemployment benefit. I am not sure this is a good idea for two reasons.

First, if there is a role to be undertaken, it is best served by meaningful employment to achieve that aim. I accept Iain Duncan Smith's concern that such a scheme should not be purely to appease tax payers and any work must be work that needs doing anyway. So, if it needs doing, let's look at doing it professionally rather than with short term labour by people who are less than motivated to undertake it.

Secondly, unemployment benefit at present assumes the person is looking for work. This is hard to achieve if you are working anyway. By all means find ways to ensure those who can work are looking for it, but invest in ways to help them get work rather than this system.

No, it is well meant, it begins to address the issue of people who will not work, but fetters the vast majority who are looking for meaningful employment.

it wont work anyway whilst idiot apologists for those who take the piss keep sensationalising and denigrating initiatives. Mind you, the idea is not fully thought through yet and is borne of the need to issue policy for short term political gain, even if the ideas are half baked.

I don't think murdering Ministers is the answer though. The ballot box is a much fairer way of declaring your views and you can join civilised society as a result, so winners all round eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:40 PM

Willie, to own a sniper rifle, or to have a point of vantage is not necessarily to use either. You can do better than that. If life on the dole is so rosy, why don't you try it?

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:14 PM

.


    But folks - don't you realize? ...


    This is the BIG SOCIETY where public services won't be necessary due to all the volunteers.


    Cameron just forgot to tell us that it will be the unemployed who make up the ranks of the volunteers ...

    ... and they will be volunteered on an ... um ... involuntary basis ...


    Rafflesbear ---->>   To say you have hit the nail on the head would be a gross understatement.


    Walls need painting and streets need cleaning, yet the government won't pay people the minimum wage to do the job.


    Instead they give these jobs to unemployed people as punishments for not having a job.


    So you want a job as a painter eh? well we don't have one ... howeverm if you can't find another job, we'll force you to do a painters job for a convicted criminals prison wage.


    The nightmare unfolding before us is sickening in its cruelty.


    I can't believe what I am reading!

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM

"it begins to address the issue of people who will not work, but fetters the vast majority who are looking for meaningful employment."

This is no accident.

University fees rocket upwards making a top education the preserve of those who can afford it, and then choice in the job market is fettered.

Further down the chain, the schools rebuilding program is cut, whilst top schools get extra funding and become unaccountable, and parents who have the time to spare to set up their own schools (not the ones in 3 jobs, or those "volunteering" to clean the streets) also get extra funding ...

and the government, who own the banks they bought as part of the "bail out" (buy out) have enough money to pay out bigger bonuses than have ever been paid before, totalling billions of pounds, but can't give a man a job as a cleaner, or build a playground for kids in a poor area ... or help a mother whose biological partner has died or left to provide a loving home and a supportive relationship to her child.


Lizzie   -    Recently I have been reading your posts and cheering out loud at your audacity and agreeing withh every word you say!

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:26 PM

Get used to it folks, its just capitalism with the skids under it.
It will soon turn into fascism, but there will be no class war this time....no commies left to die for freedom, only the "liberal" collaborators waiting their turn for the gas chambers.

In a couple of decades we will be competitive again and the wheel will have spun full circle
Britain will be a tourist destination for the Indians and Chinese....(the first coachload of Indian tourists arrived in Argyll last month)

Soon they will be sending in the aid parcels, unless we can find a strong trustworthy charismatic woman to lead us....and they're about as common as hens teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:29 PM

Well said Lox.

Ake, your first two lines are correct.   The rest is (as usual) insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:29 PM

Caroline Lucas would do me fine - with Tony Benn as her immortal leftenant.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:45 PM

PS - I keep hearing that "Bob Crow is no Arthur Scargill".

When the miners went on strike, they could be ignored and bullied.

Why?

Because whatever happened up north made no difference to the city.

On the other hand, if Bob Crows boys aren;t listened to, the ccity won't get off so easily.

I live in London and rely on the underground.

The most recent strike seriously botched up my life.

It was a warning shot.

The city can't function without fully operating infrastructure.

Even if the billionaires can get in to work in their daimlers, they'd be coming in to dirty unmaintained offices with faulty equipment, not to mention lavatories, canteens etc.

The RMT, despite Thatchers laws, is much more powerful than the NUM ever was.

Besides firing a warning shot, Crow has also let people know that there is a banner to stand behind and that it is already a force to be reckoned with.

Thatcherism has evolved, but so has the labour movement - and by that i don't mean the labour party, though it is interesting that the unions favourite became party leader ... so any cosying up won't look insincere ...

Desite my initial concerns, I am starting to believe that "red ed" will most likely be a more significant and effective leader of the opposition than his brother might have been, for the simple reason that he is less likely to suffer from his brothers blairite shame of the unions.

Why am I moving left?

Because I am being given no choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:33 AM

Well, first of all we have Richard accusing Akenaton of insanity. I had to pour myself another coffee before I got my head around the implications of that. Actually Richard, that isn't fair. Whilst I genuinely think you get revved up unnecessarily, at least my issue with you is that you come from a stand point of appearing educated and thinking through your position. Akenaton on the other hand has, as a new dancer once observed of another, something of the night about him.

That said, your distinction between sitting on a vantage point in Westminster with a snipers' rifle and actually firing it is a rather delicate distinction. I reckon the difference is about 8 - 10 years and earlier application for parole with the former.

Funnily enough, I was on the dole for a time, when I had a pregnant wife and small child. I did something about it though, and as my only qualifications at the time were that of a mining electrician, not much use elsewhere, this wasn't easy. But I did.

You see, this is a land of opportunity, where you can get off your arse and do something. Just like you did and still do.

I said above that I don't agree with the proposed policy. But I don't even recognise the fantasy hate mongering that this thread seems to be discussing. Labour camps? Are you seriously suggesting I should be buying shares in Degesch?

I may sound an apologist for a government nobody even predicted, let alone embraced openly, but whilst not liking some of their policies, I will at least judge them by the actual policies rather than discuss construed propaganda of failed armchair socialist weird beards.

Isn't it interesting how many people here in The UK will laugh at the gullibility of USA citizens when we hear of how many reckon Obama is a Muslim, how we chortle at their naivety.

And yet the same people will swallow whole huge exaggerations if they distrust a UK government enough.

You know when I decided I could make a difference? When I became a floating voter. A marker pen is mightier than a snipers' rifle, and takes aim at reality rather than deluded fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 05:09 AM

"You see, this is a land of opportunity, where you can get off your arse and do something. Just like you did and still do."

But not equal opportunity.

A poor education and a lack of available opportunities does not just mean that one has to work a bit harder or go a bit further afield.

That would presuppose awareness of other opportunities and what/where they are.

And when you grow up surrounded by no opportunities, and when your education does not equip you to know what opportunities to look for, let alone how to recognize them when you see them, you have no chance.

The only opportunities they see are the X factor and selling drugs. If you can't get into those closed shops, then all thats left is to develop obesity and a drink habit and find someone to blame.

Willie, you and I and Richard were all lucky enough to get a glimpse out of the box and thats why we have a hunger to find out what else is out there.

Ambition and hope are things we take for granted - they help us and don't hurt us ... well not always ...

Hopeless inertia is something we have the tools to overcome.

Not so for many people living in what can literally be described as suburban dumps, where inconvenient people are dumped in squalid houses and destructive schools and kept at arms length and hidden as much as possible from view, until somebody fancies scoring a cheap political point by blaming them for the credit crunch.

In a way Ake is right to have sympathy for teapartiers and BNPers etc, but the mistake he makes is that he is unable to distinguish between sticking up for the poor and vulnerable on one hand and sticking up for the false ideologies that they are vulnerable to on the other hand.

You can understand how people could get drawn by these horrrendous ideologies, but that does not mean for one second that these ideologies should be allowed to get any tenure in the collective consciousness.

We call them Chavs and tell them to get on the bus and get a job. We tell them that they are repugnant in every facet of their existence, whether it be the way they enjoy themselves, their politics or their alleged sponging.

They are the perfect scapegoat.

And London is about to follow suit.

Dump the undesirables in the suburbs - keep them out of the eye of tourists and foreign investors.

Willie - you have to ask what the consequences of camerons policies are going to be and you have to ask if a civilized conscience can allow such misery to be inflicted in the name of an ideology of small government and capitalist freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 05:14 AM

Lox is absolutely right. It's very simple logic and fits together perfectly neatly.
Cut paid council jobs. Compel the unemployed to do the same work.

As for London ditto. For any action to be effective it must cause pain to those who hold the strings. The Miners were easily othered as grubby irritants, no-body gave a shit about what was happening 'up there'.

If bankers insist on continuing to give themselves vast bonuses while everyone else is becoming unemployed and losing their homes, The City could become a target at some point in the future. But it won't be Muslim terrorists or dedicated anarchists blowing up Canary Warf, it'll be some quiet little man who's worked hard all his life, tried to be a decent father and husband, lost his job, lost his home, lost his wife and family, and now has nothing to live for.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 05:37 AM

The problem with targeting the bankers through disrupting the transport infrastructure is that in the end those on low pay suffer because they can't get to work to earn their minimum wage, and they don't have the option of taking taxis, those receiving care services suffer because their carers can't get to work, those who need emergency services have to wait longer because the roads are gridlocked.

At the same time the self-righteous in their glass towers complain about the unions 'screwing their business' while they continue to do the same themselves with their bloated bonuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 05:56 AM

SPB - I think you have identified the key battleground that we will be witnessing over the next couple of years.

The Bankers will have enough Cash to ride the storm ... possibly ... they will still need people to provide services that they can pay for ...

But more important will be the media war.

The Sun has been known to switch its allegiance, but most likely it will come out against the Unions and will ssupport the line that they are disrupting society and are the root cause of the discontent.

The telegraph, standard, mail, times etc etc will also all condemn the unions.

But will the public believe them or will they have sympathy for the workers?

If people considered for one minute that publicly owned banks were paying bonuses that equalled the amount to be saved by the cuts ...

... in other words, that the government were paying bankers billions whilst effectively paying menial workers £60 a week ...

... there would be outrage.


And we want Chavs to get off their arses and be inspired by Big Society?


What society?


This does not describe society, it describes the dissolution of society.


Compassionate conservatism?


When was the last time you heard that slogan used ... before the election thats when!

What compassion?

"We're all in this together ..."

What is Osborne in that I'm in?

It certainly isn't "the same boat"

Mine is just afloat and he thinks I don't need the plug.

His is moored off the Virgin Islands so he can keep tabs on his bank account.

Britain won't stand for this.

The only variable is, just how much like Thatcher is Cameron? ... how far is he prepared to go to crush dissent?


All I care about is that my Daughter gets through all of it unscathed.

But If I sit on the fence it could be worse.


Worrying times folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:05 AM

A little excerpt from an article by George Monbiot.

"It's arguable that the UK government does not have a spending crisis; it has a tax avoidance crisis. Official accounts suggest that the tax gap amounts to £42bn(2). Richard Murphy of Tax Research has demonstrated that this figure cannot be correct, as it contradicts other government statistics. He estimates that avoidance now amounts to £25bn a year, evasion to £70bn, and outstanding debts to the tax service to £28bn: a total of more than £120bn(3).

That's roughly three-quarters of the budget deficit(4). It's equivalent to 80% of the UK's revenue from income tax(5). By comparison, benefit fraud, which both the government and the rightwing press emphasised in order to justify the cuts, amounts to £1.1bn a year(6). No one would claim that all this missing money could be recovered. But even if only 20% were clawed back, the most damaging cuts could be reversed."

The rest of the article can be found here

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:15 AM

That's VERY annoying - a long and thoughtful post earlier eaten by the post fairy!

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:22 AM

PS - it looks like a little tea party is going on in the health service ...

... the so called "grass roots" think tank favoured by the current health minister is funded by those in the pharmaceutical industry who stand to profit when the health service is cut more.


Smashing the State tory style ...

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:28 AM

Lox, I ain't disagreeing with you. I am not naive enough to wonder why they don't eat cake, but by the same token, putting people in their "place" is nothing new.

I was told at school it was the army or down the pit. If I was clever enough, perhaps the glassworks.

After the strike, I got out of the pit. Never looked back, had some good luck, had some set backs, but however you value or count success, I am independent, comfortable, want for nothing and refuse to feel guilty about it. It isn't about silver spoons, it is about hard bloody work. In order to have a social program at all, a country needs the vast majority to get off their arses and create wealth. I am not quoting Adam Smith by the way, I am quoting Tony Benn.

My sons grew up in a small town with huge deprivation scores, (I chaired a local health authority, the public health figures were disturbing to say the least.) My sons went to the local comp' which had a bad reputation for attainment.

I found it interesting that my eldest and two other lads were streets ahead of their classmates and since leaving school have done well for themselves, very well, and I am proud of my lad.

I wonder what the difference was between them and the others? Coincidence of being bright? No...   

Parents who took an interest, who asked them how school had been, who got them interested in the joy of reading, learning and expanding your horizons. They had the same teachers as those who now sit in the welfare supping their dole, moaning that they never stood a chance because of where they live, where they went to school, or whoever they blame that particular day.

Stereotyping? No more than those who harp on about why everything a government does or says is wrong because they "don't understand real people." Show me a government that does.

That is why I have huge problems with apologists for those in less fortunate positions; you are in grave danger of keeping them where they are rather than finding ways to help them on. Many third world charities have used the slogan, "A hand up, not a hand out." Interesting to see the reaction when applied closer to home.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: GUEST,crowsister
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:32 AM

"just how much like Thatcher is Cameron? ... how far is he prepared to go to crush dissent?"

Well this will be the interesting thing. How many pressure groups and charities will decide to stand together in opposition? 'Northern agitators' and 'dirty hippies' were very easily othered, but a broad coalition of support from people from all walks of life will be harder to ridicule and condemn. And if dissent is crushed (a la Thatcher) the govt. needs the propaganda machine of the press to succeed in othering dissenting groups, in order not to risk casting itself as a tyranny opposed to 'the people'.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:45 AM

Great post Willie,

great questions raised.

The question isn't just what is the difference between your lads and teir peers, but also what is the solution to the problems in those areas.

This subject isn't "the plight of the poor victim" and I'm not looking for you or anyone to get the tissues out.

This subject is "punishing the poor for the crimes of the rich" and I hope we can stop it from happening.

The amount saved by cuts to social services is equalled by the amount to be paid in bonuses by the government to its emplyees in the banks it bought with our money last year.

And that amount is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of money in unclaimed tax that remains outstanding.

Cameron isn't out of touch, he's cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 06:52 AM

"I was told at school it was the army or down the pit. If I was clever enough, perhaps the glassworks."

And before that we had no vote, and before that we were serfs on feudal land, and before that we were sold as slaves and gladiators to the romans etc etc etc.

I don't know why you were different, maybe you succeeded where your ex colleagues failed and in doing so your sons had a leg up?

I don't mean that they had financial privilege, but they learned from watching you that hope is worth having.

How many opportunities were there to go round where you lived? and how many of your colleagues fell onto the scrapheap?

I don't know ... thats why I'm asking ... but I have a feeling that I can predict your answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: C-flat
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:11 AM

Interesting points raised on Radio 4 this lunchtime but I didn't hear anyone comment on childcare provisions.
One of the biggest obstacles in getting to work for some is the cost of child care.
Is that to be covered in "expenses" for those being asked to participate in the scheme?
It's difficult enough to find a job that pays well enough to justify the extra expense of child minding or after-school activities, let alone be forced to take these costs on.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:02 AM

I grew up surrounded by Child minders ; their names were Granny--Nanny--Aunty---Uncle ,and they didn't cost much,either (or abuse anyone).In today's much -altered world, "Daddy" could easily be a child-minder for many working mums, but then are there enough "Daddies" to fill the role ?? Of course not; they've all been emasculated by the so-called "feminists",and other purveyors of the socio-political claptrap that's pervading modern society.
             As for the "Labour Camp" debate ? Well, my understanding of the proposals is that drastic action,in the form of a 3-month suspension of Job Seekers Allowance,will only apply to those who REFUSE to actively seek employment,or REFUSE to attend interviews for jobs that the authorities have applied for on THEIR behalf.In which case,some sort of corrective action certainly NEEDS to be taken , surely ??

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: C-flat
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:17 AM

Family certainly played a bigger role when I was a child, even neighbours were called "Auntie", but I don't see much of that kind of society these days.
I would agree that anyone refusing to seek work or attend interviews might reasonably expect their benefits to be stopped but I don't think that's all that under discussion here. After all, that system already exists!

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:28 AM

"their names were Granny--Nanny--Aunty---Uncle "

All of whom, thanks to this government, are now going to be expected to work until they're 66 (or forfeit their full state pensions). The age of 'cheap' childminders is well and truly over.

Subject: RE: BS: Next Con-Dem game - Labour Camps?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 12:17 PM

Willie - if only the most able or the most assisted by "the right sort of parenting" can escape you are still condemning most to long-lived misery, and you are adding to the injury the insult that they or their parents did not try hard enough.

Painting walls with a toothbrush, cutting lawns with scissors, cleaning lavatories, these maybe the army way (and even then the army way to punish) but they have no place in a civilised society.