BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 08:19 AM

Last paragraph of your link as you apparently didn't get down that far.
What have you been told about "carefully selective quotes"
The Buckingham Palace conference was an altruistic but futile attempt to broker a partition arrangement; there was little incentive to make concessions despite there being no shortage of ideas on how 'statutory Ulster' could be composed. George Dangerfield best summarised matters: 'Only an earthquake or general conversion could have settled the problem: and the sorrows of the conference were due to the fact that it was attempting to decide by Act of Parliament what could only be effected by ACT OF GOD'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:06 AM

"Ah the above was what Eamon de Valera thought was it?"

Who said it was?

John Bowman and I would have thought that the title served as a big enough hint.

"DeValera and The Ulster Question" by John Bowman (1989)

"Tell me Jim did Dev ask the Unionists in Ulster about that"

Why should he ask an armed minority bunch of right-wing English extremists who have threatened Civil War if their demands were not met anything?

Ah Jim so you still think of those living in the North albeit that they have been there for about 500 years a bunch of "Blow-In Newcomers" - what does that make you?

"The proof of the Unionist pudding was in the eating when it launched a half-century reign of terror on one third of the six counties"

To say nothing Jim about the sectarian reign of terror that prevailed, largely unreported in the Republic over the same period. 1911 13% of the population of what became the Republic of Ireland was Protestant that through the years has fallen to about 3% in 2011. Compared that to the North of Ireland where in 1911 35% of the population was Catholic who through this reign of terror you mention has managed to increase, up now to 42% according to the last Census. You tell me Carroll where the ethnic cleansing took place.

"In July 1916 Lloyd George gave Carson the assurance that the people of Ulster could not be forced into an independent united Ireland without their consent"

That's what I said

That is not what you said at all - you stated that Lloyd George had guaranteed them Permanent Partition - simply put he did no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:30 AM

"can the same not be said of Haig but on a much greater scale."

No Raggy it couldn't.

Haig was a soldier. A Divisional Commander who kept his troops intact as a "force in being" in extremely difficult circumstances against an enemy force of greater numbers and greater superiority in artillery. After the initial German surges of 1914 and 1915 Haig did not lose one single battle to the Germans. He is also credited with having led the most successful offensive campaign ever mounted by the British Army throughout its entire history.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:31 AM

"John Bowman and I would have thought that the title served as a big enough hint."
It's a 300 page book - "DeValera and The Ulster Question" was the title, not a reference to that particular section - I would have thought that was fairly obvious, but maybe not.
Silly man.
"Ah Jim so you still think of those living in the North albeit that they have been there for about 500 years a bunch of "Blow-In Newcomers" "
Who said that?
Putting words into people's moths to make an unmakable case again.
The thuggery was instigated by the Unionists - it wqas the Unionists I was referring to as you well know
What does that make you?
You are the one who suggested Ireland had no grounds for claiming unity for the state things were in Norman times
What does that make you?
"To say nothing Jim about the sectarian reign of terror that prevailed, largely unreported in the Republic "
If it was "unreported" how come tyou =know about it - divine inspiration maybe?
Perhaps you'd like to fill us in, or is this yet another of your "inventions", like your "German plot"?
"Carroll"
Your insecurity is showing again.
"Lloyd George had guaranteed them Permanent Partition"
Lloyd George wrote to Carson informing them that permanent partitio was in the bag - he telephoned Redmond to say it would only be foir six years - you know this and have been linked to it - you described it as the work of dishonest politicians
What does that make you?
Perhaps you'd like to help Keith out of his hole - no?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 10:45 AM

Frankly I don,t give a damn. I,m off to Ireland shortly where tomorrow I pickup the keys to my new property.


YIPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

Mine's a pint of Guinness Raggy
Where are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:01 AM

Connemara coast, utterly beautiful place and so peaceful and serene. Loads of music, great people, great Guinness. Bliss

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:27 AM

Which part?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:31 AM

"There was nothing in you vast paste job that contradicted anything I have said!"
Yes there is Keith

If there is, produce it. Not screenfuls of text, just the salient paragraph.

What exactly are you claiming was "consensus" on partition?

There was consensus on the Bill, which came after the Buck Ho. conference.
Not my claim. I just quoted History Ireland.

Partition was left to be resolved, but home rule was guaranteed.
The rising destroyed the consensus, did not prevent partition, and gave Ireland years of bloody conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 12:48 PM

Try thgis for size

""If Britain decided tomorrow to expel us, she should remember what happened in 1912 when Britain sought to expel the whole of Ireland.
The people of Northern Ireland not only said, "We don't wish to go, they said, "We won't go." And it paid off. So there's a message there: that the people of Northern Ireland have it within their power to say "We won't go." And they took action in 1912-that reversed the British government's attitude."

Where does your "Home Rule Settled" fit into that?

"There was consensus on the Bill, which came after the Buck Ho. conference."
And where did "to partition or not to partition" fit in to that consensus?

Howe about this from your link
"Only an earthquake or general conversion could have settled the problem: and the sorrows of the conference were due to the fact that it was attempting to decide by Act of Parliament what could only be effected by ACT OF GOD'."
Are you a masochist - do you enjoy humiliating yourself in public?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 02:22 PM

""If Britain decided tomorrow to expel us, she should remember what happened in 1912 when Britain sought to expel the whole of Ireland.
The people of Northern Ireland not only said, "We don't wish to go, they said, "We won't go." And it paid off. So there's a message there: that the people of Northern Ireland have it within their power to say "We won't go." And they took action in 1912-that reversed the British government's attitude."

If that were indeed the case Jim then there would have been no Government of Ireland Act 1914 - would there. If a week is a long time in politics what do you reckon two years makes?

A temporary exclusion for six years was agreed to by ALL parties on the 8th July 1914 and that supersedes anything said in 1912.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

"If that were indeed the case Jim then there would have been no Government of Ireland Act 1914"
Take it up with your mate Paisley - he said it.
"A temporary exclusion for six years was agreed to by ALL parties on the 8th July 1914 and that supersedes anything said in 1912."
And a enforced permanent partition presented after the war and re-affirmed in 1921 - that supersedes anything you pair have ever offered.
Finished with this one - it joins the pile of wreckage you've already totted up.
Have we heard the last of Catholic thuggery against Protestants - yes - thought so - just made up again
You have as little self-respect as your friend
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 03:20 PM

Incidentally
"and that supersedes anything said in 1912."
Paisley's and Allister's summing up of the hisory of Unionism and its attitude to partition was made in the mid 1980s, so that trumps every crd in the pack - straight from the horses' mouths
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:19 AM

What happened to the Six Counties of Northern Ireland
Jim Carroll

1925–65
Under successive unionist Prime Ministers from Sir James Craig (later Lord Craigavon) onwards, the unionist establishment practised what is generally considered a policy of discrimination against the nationalist/Catholic minority.
This pattern was firmly established in the case of local government, where gerrymandered ward boundaries rigged local government elections to ensure unionist control of some local councils with nationalist majorities. In a number of cases, most prominently those of the Corporation of Derry, Omagh Urban District, and Fermanagh County Council, ward boundaries were drawn to place as many Catholics as possible into wards with overwhelming nationalist majorities while other wards were created where unionists had small but secure majorities, maximising unionist representation.
Voting arrangements which gave commercial companies multiple votes according to size, and which restricted the personal franchise to property owners, primary tenants and their spouses (which were ended in England in the 1940s), continued in Northern Ireland until 1969 and became increasingly resented. Disputes over local government gerrymandering were at the heart of the civil rights movement in the 1960s.
In addition, there was widespread discrimination in employment, particularly at senior levels of the public sector and in certain sectors of the economy, such as shipbuilding and heavy engineering. Emigration to seek employment was significantly more prevalent among the Catholic population. As a result, Northern Ireland's demography shifted further in favour of Protestants, leaving their ascendancy seemingly impregnable by the late 1950s.
The abolition of proportional representation in 1929 meant that the structure of party politics gave the Ulster Unionist Party a continual sizeable majority in the Parliament of Northern Ireland, leading to fifty years of one-party rule. While nationalist parties continued to retain the same number of seats that they had under proportional representation, the Northern Ireland Labour Party and various smaller leftist unionist groups were smothered, meaning that it proved impossible for any group to sustain a challenge to the Ulster Unionist Party from within the unionist section of the population.
In 1935, the worst violence since partition convulsed Belfast. After an Orange Order parade decided to return to the city centre through a Catholic area instead of its usual route; the resulting violence left nine people dead. Over 2,000 Catholics were forced to leave their homes across Northern Ireland.
While disputed for decades, many unionist leaders now admit that the Northern Ireland government in the period 1922–72 was discriminatory, although prominent Democratic Unionist Party figures continue to deny it or its extent.[16] One unionist leader, Nobel Peace Prize joint-winner, former UUP leader and First Minister of Northern Ireland David Trimble, described Northern Ireland as having been a "cold house for Catholics.
Despite this, Northern Ireland was relatively peaceful for most of the period from 1924 until the late 1960s, except for some brief flurries of IRA activity, the (Luftwaffe) Belfast blitzduring the Second World War in 1941 and the so-called "Border Campaign" from 1956 to 1962. It found little support among nationalists. However, many Catholics were resentful towards the state, and nationalist politics was fatalist. Meanwhile, the period saw an almost complete synthesis between the Ulster Unionist Party and the loyalist Orange Order, with Catholics (even unionist Catholics) being excluded from any position of political or civil authority outside of a handful of nationalist-controlled councils
Throughout this time, although the Catholic birth rate remained higher than for Protestants, the Catholic proportion of the population declined, as poor economic prospects, especially west of the River Bann, saw Catholics emigrate in disproportionate numbers.
Nationalist political institutions declined, with the Nationalist Party boycotting the Stormont Parliament for much of this period and its constituency organisations reducing to little more than shells. Sinn Féin was banned although it often operated through the Republican Clubs or similar vehicles. At various times the party stood and won elections on anabstentionist platform.
Labour-based politics were weak in Northern Ireland in comparison with Britain] A small Northern Ireland Labour Party existed but suffered many splits to both nationalist and unionist factions
History of Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:23 AM

Ah Jim are you beginning to see now why it is important for you to give details as to who is saying what and when they said it.

None of which matters a damn though as the opinions of de Valera and Paisley on the subject of Ulster are about as predictable as the headline "Dog bites man". And nothing alters the fact that agreement was reached by all parties by the 8th July 1914.

If you want to start understanding history you should try reading objective accounts of what actually happened, not fictional, or subjective accounts of what people think happened.

Here is another fact for you - at no time at all was permanent partition ever offered or guaranteed to the Unionists in the North. You have repeatedly stated that it was, now tell us all who offered it and when, because the 1914 Act was based upon an agreed six year temporary partition period and the 1920 Act was based upon the same six year temporary exclusion - You would actually know that had you bothered to read either Act, you haven't, preferring instead to read what others believed it inferred.

Yet another fact for you Jim is that after the 1916 Rising neither side Republican or Unionist ever bothered attending meetings that could have resulted in any compromise being reached. Why? Because what happened in Dublin in 1916 was seized on by both sides as excuses to dig their heels in. Attitudes hardened (Still haven't got back to us as to when it was in 1916 that that "crucial meeting" of the Ulster Unionists Council took place have you - or are you just conveniently ignoring the information that one was held that year?) which meant that after the General Election of 1918 it was impossible to implement the 1914 Act, which led to its repeal and the implementation of the 1920 Act. The Sinn Fein "Government" of the Republic of Ireland ignored the 1920 Act, while the Unionists in the North embraced it as it gave them their own formal duly appointed political forum within the United Kingdom.

Sinn Fein started their "War of Independence" on the 19th January 1919 and having done so must accept the consequences of taking that course of action. By the summer of 1921 the "War" had been fought to a stalemate and in July 1921 a Truce was established and peace negotiations were entered into. The Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed on the 6th December 1921 but it took exactly one year until the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 came into force and Northern Ireland seceded from the Irish Free State, in accordance with its rights under Article 5 of the Treaty. Had there been no war, there would have been no truce, there would have been no negotiations in which Northern Irish interests would have been represented or taken into account, no formal secession, no permanent partition of Ireland.

To state that I do not need to provide links, or sources, because I am not attempting to support someone else's opinions as to how or why things happened, I am merely stating what actually happened in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM

"Ah Jim so you still think of those living in the North albeit that they have been there for about 500 years a bunch of "Blow-In Newcomers"

Who said that? Asks Jim furiously then declaring:

Putting words into people's moths to make an unmakable case again.


Who said that Jim? - YOU DID - and here it is:


Jim Carroll - 18 May 16 - 04:01 AM

The religio/political divides in Ulster are the result of settlers being deliberately planted there in the 1600s (how long is that after "The Normans?" and today's situation in The Six Counties is a result of the British Government enforcing a division in the 1920s - the Protestants are 'Blow-in newcomers' in both cases and, by your reckoning, can have no claim to a recognised presence in Ireland - certainly no claim to a Protestant State.

So the right of self-determination is only to be accorded to those who Jim Carroll approves of - how very egalitarian and "socialist" of you.

Sinn Fein enforced the divisions in the 1920s Jim - their war, brought about the actual consequences that came to pass.

Now then Jim all you have to do now is toddle off and do as I have done above and show me the post where either Keith A of myself have stated that Ireland was not entitled too independence.

So much for putting words into people's mouths eh Carroll? Wrong again, but getting things wrong is something that you have now refined into an art form.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM

"None of which matters a damn though as the opinions of de Valera and Paisley "
I have no time for either - as I said, the quote wasn't DeValera's but a lot more convenient to ignore that fact.
Cartainly Paisley's statement is important as he epitomised Unionism.
No - to all - see how it worked out for Catholics in my last posting
Once again you make statements based entirely on your re-invention of Irish history - no quotes even, no links - no verification.
You appear to be blowing for tugs, as they used to say on the docks before your lot closed them.
How about responding to the Unionists take on equality and democracy that you appear to find so attractive.
Have a good day now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM

"RThe Protestants are 'Blow-in newcomers' in both cases and, by your reckoning, can have no claim to a recognised presence in Ireland -"
As I clearly pointed out, I was comparing your dismissing Irish nationhood re The Romans (or was it the Normans) with the situation of the Plantations. - if your dismissal works for one, it works for both.
I was merely underlining the idiocy of your idiotic claim.
I pointed out a long time ago that Catholics and Protestants invariablye get on well until you 'Billy-Boys' come along trying to incite them into killing each other.
In fact, the shenanigans of Craig, Carson and the other political thugs created a massive rift, not so much between Catholics and Protestants. but between the Northern and Southern Unionists, who ended up spitting feathers at each other, the South claiming they had been betrayed by the North.
If anything could have kept Ireland within the bounds of the Empire a little longer and made the transition peaceful, it was the fact that the Southern Unionists supported Redmond's call for temporary partition while, on the other hand, the Bully/Billy Boys would have none of it and were prepared to actually invade what was then a part of Britain if their demands were not met.
'Patriots' eh - who needs them?
Anyway - I'll let you get on with explaining away the gerrymandering, vote rigging and oppressive sectarianism of the people whose banner you appear to be carrying.
Forgot to mention.
"eh Carroll? "
I love it when you talk dirty - always a sign of another arrow striking home.
Keep it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM

Re the Blow-In newcomers Jim - all you are doing now is simply wriggling.

But please how come - by my supposed reckoning - they "can have no claim to a recognised presence in Ireland - certainly no claim to a Protestant State."

Now would that be "My Reckoning" as per the Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" that claimed that either myself or Keith A had said that Ireland was not entitled to independence? Remember Jim you have still to find that post - not been having much luck have you - mind you neither did Joe Offer.

Any right of self-determination is universal it can never be selectively applied.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM

"all you are doing now is simply wriggling."
No I am not and now you are trying to resurrect something from the embers while at the same time avoiding all the main issues here.
It was quite obvious (except to those who would want to distort my point) that, from the beginning my objection was to Unionists, not to the population of the North in general, wherever they came from.
I pointed out earlier that, in my experience, the conflict was not between Catholics and Protestants (I am neither) but entirely due to the bowler-ghatted, besashed thugs fwose main role has been to incite hatred.
You, on the other hand, have shown no interest in the well-being of the Irish in general, but have thrown your full support behind militant, North Eastern Unionism (you can't even be bothered to respond to the fact that the North Eastern Unionists turned on those in the South just as viciously.
The Dog that Didn't Bark
Far from me wriggling, it is you who hasn't been able to exctract himself from your "Normans" stupidity are now trying to smear me with some of your own shit.
When Redmond's opposition to partition came up you immediately said that there was no reason to oppose it because of prehistoric Norman history.
No partitioned country partly answerable to another country can ever claim to be independent - ergo, you don't see why Ireland should be independent
Your exact words
"Irish nationalists can never be the assenting parties to the mutilation of the Irish nation. The two nation theory is to us an abomination and a blasphemy."

"Cannot really see why it should be such an abomination, they were never a united nation prior to the arrival of the Normans, they were a collection of small kingdoms. The USA at that time was and still is a Federal Union of individual sovereign states, the Dominion of Canada a Confederation of Provinces and Australia a Commonwealth of States."
Being very much in the minority in Ireland, they have as much right to a Protestant state than did the Confederacy in the U.S.
As I said - partition - no independence.
Now how about stopping "wriggling" and respond to the 'democratic' six Counties.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM

You haven't forgotten that you were going to give me all those examples of the 'oppressed' Protestants in the 26 Counties, have you!!!
Or maybe you have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:42 PM

Read some of your own links.

Protestant population in 1911 accounted for 13% of the population of your 26 counties

Protestant population in 2011 accounted for 3% of the population of the Irish Republic

Now that is one hell of a drop Jim - What happened to them?

Meanwhile up North

Catholic population in 1911 accounted for 35% of the population of the six counties of Northern Ireland. Population in 1911 ~1.25 million.

Catholic population in 2011 accounted for 42% of the population of the six counties of Northern Ireland. Population in 2011 ~1.85 million.

Now where is that post of mine in which I make the statement that I do not believe saying that Ireland is not entitled to independence?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:07 PM

the bowler-ghatted, besashed thugs fwose main role has been to incite hatred.

You reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:30 PM

"You reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot Jim."
What's "sectarian" about recognizing political thuggery
You have the evidence for it, yet you refuse to comment - I suggest that those who support sectarian violence are the sectarians
I'n neither a Catholic nor a Protestant - religion being sold under any brand means nothing to me.
"Now that is one hell of a drop Jim - What happened to them?"
Probably all had their throats cut and dropped into the middle of Lough Derg - what's your theory?
You said Protestants were terrorised as were the Catholics in the North - WHERE'S YOUR EVIDENCE FOR THIS STATEMENT - I'VE GIVEN YOU MINE?
"Now where is that post of mine in which I make the statement that I do not believe saying that Ireland is not entitled to independence?"
You've had it at least three times now - your are getting as stupidly, boringly repetitive as Keith.
One more time - NO NATION PARITIONED AGAINST THEIR WILL WITH PART STILL UNDER FOREIGN CONTROL CAN BE DESCRIBED AS "INDEPENDENT" - YOU SUPPORT THAT SITUATION AND DESCRIBE OPPOSITION TO PARTITION AS UNNECESSARY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN NORMAN TIMES - ERGO - YOU AR OPPOSED TO IRELAND BEING INDEPENDENT - YOU HAVE TOLD UD DO OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
Still waiting for some evidence of any of your pronouncements.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM

"Now where is that post of mine in which I make the statement that I do not believe that Ireland is not entitled to independence?"

You've had it at least three times now - your are getting as stupidly, boringly repetitive as Keith.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is where I said that Ireland was not entitled to independence?

One more time -

NO NATION PARITIONED AGAINST THEIR WILL WITH PART STILL UNDER FOREIGN CONTROL CAN BE DESCRIBED AS "INDEPENDENT" - {John Redmond 1912}

Who is the THEIR in "against their will" Jim?

YOU SUPPORT THAT SITUATION AND DESCRIBE OPPOSITION TO PARTITION AS UNNECESSARY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN NORMAN TIMES - ERGO - YOU AR OPPOSED TO IRELAND BEING INDEPENDENT - YOU HAVE TOLD UD DO OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I have told you very clearly what I support - the right of self-determination for all - you on the other hand espouse views of a leadership that demands that people be coerced into doing things against THEIR will.

Before the Normans came to Ireland there was no such country as Ireland, no concept at all of nationhood, the island consisted of a number of small kingdoms and tribal groups who all looked to their own best interests. Where the realisation of this reality becomes important is when you have to counter claims that the partition of Ireland was wrong because Ireland had always been one country, one nation it hadn't, and for one group or another to push their case and their best interests ahead of everyone else's seems to me more a reversion to what existed before.

Look at the different groups that existed in Ireland in 1912:

The Constitutional Nationalists - by far the largest faction, predominantly Catholic, they were quite content with Home Rule, within the Empire, and saw it as a step towards independence later. This approach held out reasonable hopes of reaching an accommodation and finding common ground with the other groups.

The Republican Nationalists - the smallest of the four groups by a country mile who wanted complete independence and a total break from Britain and the Monarchy as soon as possible, preferably by armed struggle.

The Southern Unionists - the smaller of the Unionist groups, who wanted Ireland to remain as part of the Union, but who were prepared to consider Home Rule provided certain safeguards were in place to protect what they saw as their interests.

The Northern Unionists - the larger of the Unionist groups, who wanted no change at all. Who saw any threat to the current Union with Britain as being directly against their best interests and a threat to their way of life.

Oddly enough by July 1914 three of these groups had reached agreement in principle, the only group that hadn't was the smallest and least representative of the four groups - the Republican Nationalists - who when the war came decided that they would mount an armed insurrection with the help of the Germans. In all probability, left to run its course Home Rule would have come in 1919, by 1925 the temporary exclusion for Ulster would have ended and by 1931 Ireland would have been an independent sovereign state. Home Rule by this route therefore spelled the end for the Republican Nationalists - hence THEIR secret meeting at which the need for a rising was decided took place on the 4th September 1914, BEFORE the Third Irish Home Rule Bill got Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914.

The Constitutional Nationalists - who represented the vast bulk of the Catholic South were urged by their leaders to support the war effort against Germany as that would help their cause and hasten Home Rule

The Republican Nationalists - who represented a tiny fraction of the population planned in secret even from their own membership an armed rising and colluded with the Germans in order to make that possible. A committee of eleven men were responsible for this and in secret a smaller group actually steered it through to final execution.

Both Unionist groups supported the British war effort.

In 1916 seven men from the Republican Nationalist group staged the Easter Rising and set it up to fail - Pearse's Blood Sacrifice. The rising and its aftermath over the following two years led to a radical change in what now was possible:

It basically killed off the Constitutional Nationalists hopes for the future along with those of the Southern Unionists. It hardened opposition among the Northern Unionists to any part of any independent Ireland.

When the war ended in Europe another began in Ireland, started on the 19th January 1919 by Sinn Fein who declared Ireland independent. The Unionists in the North took no part in this war and with the enactment of the 1920 Government of Ireland Act they got their own Parliament. Having started a war that they were unable to finish a truce was called and peace negotiations resulted in the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921. This treaty finally ratified in December 1922 created the 32 county Irish Free State but the Treaty allowed six Northern counties of Ulster to opt out of the Irish Free State if they wished and gave them one month to do so - THEY exercised THEIR right to self-determination within 24 hours and they opted out of the Irish Free State and stated that they wished to remain as a self-governing part of the United Kingdom, which then became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

So those in the South had exercised their right of self-determination without consulting anyone in January 1919 and those in the North did the same plainly informing everyone of their intentions in December 1922.

The following I cannot state any clearer - I have no problem with any of that at all, I have got no problem at all if at some future date the people of Northern Ireland exercise their right of self-determination and seek a union with the Republic of Ireland - but that is THEIR decision and THEIR decision alone - no-one has the right to coerce them into anything against THEIR will.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:49 AM

"I have told you very clearly what I support - the right of self-determination for all -"
And you have argued against it from day one - contradictory lip-service.
Did you not suggest that Ireland's history suggested that they had no grounds for claiming to be one nation?
Did you not suggest that the only reason they did claim independence in the first place was because they were conned into doing so by the French and Spanish?
Have you not argued for a partitioned Ireland from the beginning of this debate?
Have you not argued that it is OK that six counties of (IRELAND - THAT IS WHAT IT IS - ONE IDENTIFIABLE COUNTRY) should remain under British rule under a regime that even divided those six counties into two warring groups, giving one group rights and privileges by law and depriving the other group of those rights and privileges, leading to permanent division, conflict and bloodshed?
Methinks, the laddie doth protest too much!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM

More evidence of the recent indoctrination of children in the Irish school system.
Professor Louise Ricrdson on BBC R4 Desert Island Discs.
Fifteen minutes and 40 seconds in,

"I would say at school we assembled every day and said our prayers beneath a crucifix and then a photograph of the seven men who had been executed for signing the Proclamation of Independence in 1916.

So we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held."

She said she would have joined IRA in a heartbeat.

"I tried to think in the context of other kids, and who didn't have the advantage I had in getting a (university) education and questioning everything I'd been taught. How they hold on to these ideas and end up joining terrorist groups."

She was born in Ireland, is one of seven children and has gone on to have an international career as an academic with a particular expertise in terrorism. She has been consulted by many politicians for her knowledge and insight. After many years as a Harvard Professor, she came to Britain to be the first female Vice-Chancellor of St. Andrews University.
Since January 2016, she has been the Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University and is the first woman to hold the post.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cmmk8#play

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:11 AM

"More evidence of the recent indoctrination of children in the Irish school system."
Go away with your racist suggestion that Irish children were brainwashed Keith - it only confirms your hatred of the Irish people and it certainly has no place on a thread on The Easter Rising
We really do get your message "I Hate Ireland", we've got it from the beginning.
I suppose you agree with Prof Richardson's views on teaching extremism too - or not?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12102509/Extremist-groups-must-be-allowed-to-preach-on-British-campuses-new-Oxford-head-says.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

It is not my suggestion Jim.
It is the view of Irish historians Kineally, O'Callaghan and Richardson, all of whom I have quoted stating just that.

I suppose you agree with Prof Richardson's views on teaching extremism too - or not?

She has never advocated "teaching extremism" Jim.
You just made that up.

"Asked if that meant groups like Cage should be welcomed on campus, she said: "Provided that they can be countered, I think that we should let them be heard. In that way we model to our students how you counter ideas you find objectionable."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

It is not my suggestion Jim.
It is the view of Irish historians Kineally, O'Callaghan and Richardson, all of whom I have quoted stating just that.

I suppose you agree with Prof Richardson's views on teaching extremism too - or not?

She has never advocated "teaching extremism" Jim.
You just made that up.

"Asked if that meant groups like Cage should be welcomed on campus, she said: "Provided that they can be countered, I think that we should let them be heard. In that way we model to our students how you counter ideas you find objectionable."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:50 AM

Did you not suggest that Ireland's history suggested that they had no grounds for claiming to be one nation?

Nope I clearly stated what Ireland's history was - they were never a nation and had no concept of what nationhood meant until after the Normans arrived. In 1914 to 1922 one political faction in Ireland (the smallest and least representative of them all in 1914) had no more right to coerce any other group than the British had. In 1921 Ireland as a united country was given its independence, one rather significant minority entirely off their own volition decided to remain within the UK - Self-determination, where and when have I argued against it? Or is this just more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit"?

Did you not suggest that the only reason they did claim independence in the first place was because they were conned into doing so by the French and Spanish?

Nope. What I stated was that in the past dissident elements in Ireland were prompted into action, normally in the form of armed rebellion by promises of support from nations at war with either England or Great Britain. Those dissident elements were conned into believing those promises which never seemed to amount to much. Examples given were:

The Spanish during the Anglo-Spanish War during the reign of Elizabeth the First and James the First.

The French during the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic War

The Germans during the First World War, who to give them their due although asked to supply troops they declined (Primarily as they could not break the British Naval Blockade in sufficient force).

Have you not argued for a partitioned Ireland from the beginning of this debate?

Nope. I have attempted to point out to you that best efforts were made to stave off permanent partition, you have steadfastly insisted that permanent partition was offered to the Unionists by the British Government, yet you cannot come up with one single government document that supports that contention. You cannot produce one such document as none exists - in any discussion or document only temporary partition for a time limited period is mentioned. The only reason permanent partition came into being was because of the 1916 Rising and the 1919-1921 War of Independence.

Have you not argued that it is OK that six counties of (IRELAND - THAT IS WHAT IT IS - ONE IDENTIFIABLE COUNTRY) should remain under British rule under a regime that even divided those six counties into two warring groups, giving one group rights and privileges by law and depriving the other group of those rights and privileges, leading to permanent division, conflict and bloodshed?

I believe that it was OK for the duly constituted Parliament of Northern Ireland to exercise its right of self-determination under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and secede from The Irish Free State in 1922. For your information the Parliament of Northern Ireland did not vote to remain UNDER British rule - They opted to remain as an autonomous self-governing part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

As to the division, conflict and bloodshed - If you look back down through the decades and remove the instances where the source of the trouble came from half-arsed assaults from South of the border how much division, conflict and bloodshed would there have been?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:16 AM

"It is not my suggestion Jim."
Yest it is - entirely
There is no suggestion in Prof Richardson's article that she was taught to "hate the British" - if so, where is it?
If Kineally ever claimed Irish children were brought up to "hate the British" - where did she say so?
Simple question
If the Irish "hate the British" because of their education, how did that hatred manifest itself.
Was there a lifelong propaganda campaign in the Irish press against Britain - if there was, can you give us examples of it?
Were the Irish communities in Britain no-go areas for British people - if not, why not?
Was the Irish press in Britain constantly attacking British people - if it was, can you produce examples of it.
The only unrest, violence, protest regarding Ireland over the last century has been that of FROM BRITISH CITIZENS LIVING IN THE BRITISH RULED SIX COUNTIES WHO HAVE BEEN EDUCATED UNDER A BRITISH EDUCATION SYSTEM - how do you work that one out?
If the Irish hate Britain, how does that hatred manifest itself - letter bombs, suicide bombers, hate mail, stones through British windows, anti-British demonstrations, Irish children terrorising British kids, British holidaymakers being treated with hostility - what form does that hatred take?
ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS OR APOLOGISE FOR YOUR ACCUSATIONS
I can give you hundreds of examples of the British being brainwashed to hate the Irish, from Punch Magazine, Sir Charles Trevelyan, Charles Kingsley and their like, through to Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning - and not least of all - you pair.
Having failed miserably to denigrate Easter Week and Ireland's fight for independence, you have no
w directed your spray of vitriol on the Irish people as a whole.
I think you've made all my points in the last half hour far better than I could have ever done in years.
You have my eternal gratitude.
And thanks to your friend for confirming that with his latest offering (unlinked as usual)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:43 AM

Your " half-arsed assaults from South of the border" are simple made-up lies with no documented evidence - unless, of course, like the rest of your simple made-up lies, you would like to provide evidence for them - no - thought not?
I'll just add them to the pile for future reference
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:46 AM

"hate the British" is not a phrase I have used in this discussion.

There is no suggestion in Prof Richardson's article that she was taught to "hate the British" - if so, where is it?

She said, "So we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held."

She said she would have joined IRA in a heartbeat.

"I tried to think in the context of other kids, and who didn't have the advantage I had in getting a (university) education and questioning everything I'd been taught. How they hold on to these ideas and end up joining terrorist groups."

If Kineally ever claimed Irish children were brought up to "hate the British" - where did she say so?

Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history.


O'Callaghan states that the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British" propaganda. "Indoctrinated" is another word for "brainwashing" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:37 AM

""hate the British" is not a phrase I have used in this discussion.
"Your opening statement from the Irish famine threads was that "Irish kids wre brainwashed to hate us British"
How has that hate manifested itself?
Richardson is entitled to her opinion, just as she is about allowing extremists to strut their stuff in British education.
If you are going to agree with what you said about Irish education, you need to exlain what you mean not what how interpret what she said.
Now once again How has the Irish hatred of the British, which is exactly what you said, manifested itself.
Qualify it or withdraw it and apologise.
My family were educated under the Irish education system - how dare people like you smear them with your racism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:46 AM

Your exact words.
"Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
One more time - how has that hatred manifested itself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:34 AM

Seems as though you, Jim Carroll are the only person slinging allegations about regarding hatred.

Ooooh substantiate and provide back-up or else apologise for your accusations - well I never, that would be a first on this forum and if I get the "pecking order" thing right plus what you lot on the left automatically get a free pass on due to the fact that you never substantiate any baseless accusation you throw out. Then chance would be a fine thing.

When it comes to making baseless accusations you Carroll are the worst offender on this forum.

As for myth and propaganda keeping hatred alive - it has worked with you hasn't it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 03:46 PM

Another faked quote then Jim.
I never said anything like that.

You do it because you have no answer to what we really say.

Richardson is entitled to her opinion,

She was not expressing an opinion.
She was relating her own experience.
Her school fed her a corrupted, false version of Irish history that made her want to join the IRA.
Joining the IRA is an expression of hatred towards Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:36 AM

"Another faked quote then Jim. I never said anything like that.
Will you please stop telling lies - this is exactly wat you said.
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
I don't excpect you to acknowledge your dishonesty, let alone apologies for accusing me of faking it - you don't do that sort of thing.
Your whole argument here has been based on dishonesty such as this and on total ignorance and hatred - that goes for both of you.

"Seems as though you, Jim Carroll are the only person slinging allegations about regarding hatred."
Now you're just reduced to stupid name-calling.
You obviously aren't going to substantiate your "cross-border raids" or your "oppression of Catholics in the Republic, or your "the rebels were all German spies" or "no artillery" - it wos the looters wot started all the fires" or "the poor, offended little flowers of Loyalists" or "the Home Rule Bill was a done deal", or "Tom Kent was guilty of murder, or was it treason".... or anything else you have claimed during this epic.
I don't think I have ever seen an argument end so conclusively - your case is a shambles and your denials turned out to be a pack of lies.
If you had any self-respect you would apologise - to the people on this forum who have taken a genuine interest in this subject and to the Irish people who you have smeared and attacked with your dishonest and innuendo.
The only people I have ever hated are the politicians who have caused situations such as those guilty of what has happened to Ireland.
I'll happily apologise when you qualify your accusations with a modicum of proof - as you so aptly put it, "chance would be a fine thing".
Jusr waiting to come up with his examples of the Irish hating the British - but I won't hold my breath.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM

I made no statement about hating the British.

"Irish kids wre brainwashed to hate us British"

You put it in quotes, but I never said it.
A faked quote.

"hate the British" is not a phrase I have ever used.
You put it in quotes, but I never said it.
A faked quote.

The only people I have ever hated are the politicians

What about "the bowler-ghatted, besashed thugs fwose main role has been to incite hatred."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:57 AM

"I made no statement about hating the British."
What the **** is this then - a "fake"
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
"You put it in quotes, but I never said it."
I've just pasted it directly and exactly from the the "Potato Bligh thread and given you a ling to it - stop lying.
This whole thread has been filled with lies from you and from Teribus and now you are lying about yor own words put in front of you.
"What about "the bowler-hatted, besashed thugs"
What else are the Unionists who have been running Ireland for nearly a century - traffic wardens?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:12 AM

You obviously aren't going to substantiate your "cross-border raids" or your "oppression of Catholics in the Republic, or your "the rebels were all German spies" or "no artillery" - it wos the looters wot started all the fires" or "the poor, offended little flowers of Loyalists" or "the Home Rule Bill was a done deal", or "Tom Kent was guilty of murder, or was it treason".... or anything else you have claimed during this epic.

1: So no cross border raids took place? Try googling 1956 to 1962 IRA Border Campaign and see what you get. Try YouTube "1956 to 1962 IRA Border Campaign Documentary" and see what you get. A great deal of coverage, a 47 minute long Documentary, with many interviews almost all but one from IRA men who participated. Compare their first interviews with what those same men say at the end, particularly their opinions of what the PIRA did during the "Troubles" - very revealing.

If you count the War of Independence there have been five IRA campaigns against the North - not one single one has succeeded or moved the Republicans any nearer their goal.

From that documentary the IRA's stated position there is no alternative to armed struggle and that Ireland must be united by force. If that is what you believe Carroll then come straight out and say that. I on the other hand believe in the right of self-determination for all.

2: Oppression of Catholics in the Republic?? I think I claimed "Oppression of Protestants" Jim.

Try this -
Protestant Decline in the Republic of Ireland

3: "your "the rebels were all German spies"

Care to cut-n-paste the post of mine where I state that? I can confidently predict for anyone else reading this post that he won't, basically because he can't - no such post exists - more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit".

4: The researchers from RTE and Boston College in the Chronology of the Easter Rising found evidence of looting starting in Sackville Street around 15:00hrs on the afternoon of the 24th April 1916, with looting ongoing fires started around 20:30hrs on the evening of the 24th April 1916. Present in Sackville Street during this time were the Irish Volunteers and civilian looters, during the day the Irish Volunteers had fired on and driven away the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force and scouting patrols of British Cavalry. So out of the four groups identified above - Irish Volunteers; Civilian Looters; DMP; British Army - which two groups had the opportunity to start those fires on the evening of the 24th April 1916 - you don't actually have to be Sherlock Holmes to work it out.

British troops and Artillery did not start arriving in any significant numbers until the next day. There was no artillery in Dublin on the 24th April 1916 so it could hardly have been responsible for starting the fires. It arrived from Athlone sometime during the morning of the 25th April and opened fire on barricades in direct line of sight at 15:00hrs on the afternoon of the 25th April 1916.

Their first recording of any artillery fire being directed at Sackville Street occurs almost 40 hours after the fires were started. 40 hours in which no-one made any attempt to put those fires out.

Now I can see no reason why RTE of Boston College researchers should lie about any of this and their accounts check out with those of others.

5: ""the poor, offended little flowers of Loyalists"

You've lost me where exactly have I ever used such a phrase? - More Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" - if not please cut-n-paste the post of mine where I state that.

6: Home Rule was a done deal in 1914. Pity your Republicans, or more correctly your magnificent seven in secret managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (If an independent united Ireland was the objective)

7: Under Martial Law at the time Thomas Kent was charged with firing upon Police Officers and Soldiers and killing one of them William Rowe. Therefore guilty under the provisions of the Treason Act 1351. Under Martial Law and under Military Law you are automatically charged with what is seen to be the more serious offence, as in military law you can reduce charges once made but you cannot increase them.

Now then Jim do you want to make up and fabricate any other comments that you want to take me to task over?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 05:23 AM

You stated as quotes things I never said and never would say.
That is lying, and you should expect to be called out for it.
I stand by what I actually said, and have substantiated it with statements from three Irish historians.

What else are the Unionists

Again you reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:07 AM

"You stated as quotes things I never said and never would say."
I've just put it up with a link twice - are you really claiming it is a fake?
I ask again, where is there any evidence that the Irish have ever hated the Britsih - as per the "faked" quote I put up
Full posting (plus my typo):
"Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.

Massachusetts?"
"Again you reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot."
You have had masses of information as to exactly sectarian and violent and unpatriotic and armed the Unionists are and of their behaviour when they took power in the six counties - you have challenged none of that
What is "bigoted" about hating that sort of behaviour?
"You've lost me where exactly have I ever used such a phrase? - "More Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" - if not please cut-n-paste the post of mine where I state that."
"Amazing how I forgot that classic example of Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit","
"his cock-eyed Made-Up-Shit version of history "
"Want a couple of examples of this Jim Carroll "made-up-shit"?"
"yet another baseless accusation - more Jim Carroll "made-up-shit")"
" written and attributed to me by Jim Carroll - invented comment - Made-up-shit"
More where that came from.
"Try this -
Protestant Decline in the Republic of Ireland"
I did – it shows population decline, not terrorist persecution.
The rest continues to be unlinked and long dealt-with claims you have made and failed to substantiate.
Think we're finished here - don't you - you've humiliated yourself enough as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:15 AM

"You stated as quotes things I never said and never would say."
I've just put it up with a link twice - are you really claiming it is a fake?
I ask again, where is there any evidence that the Irish have ever hated the Britsih - as per the "faked" quote I put up
Full posting (plus my typo):
"Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.

Massachusetts?"
"Again you reveal yourself as a sectarian bigot."
You have had masses of information as to exactly sectarian and violent and unpatriotic and armed the Unionists are and of their behaviour when they took power in the six counties - you have challenged none of that
What is "bigoted" about hating that sort of behaviour?
"You've lost me where exactly have I ever used such a phrase? -
It wasn't in quotes - you both have claimed that the (armed and potentially invasive) Unionists were intimidated by the Eater Rising - as I said 'delicate little flowers'
"Therefore guilty under the provisions of the Treason Act "
He was charged and hanged for murder - that was altered to "treason by Asquith in parliament - not by a court.
"Try this -
Protestant Decline in the Republic of Ireland"
I did – it shows volunrtary population decline, not terrorist persecution.
The rest continues to be unlinked and long dealt-with claims you have made and failed to substantiate.
Think we're finished here - don't you - you've humiliated yourself enough as far as I'm concerned.
"In case you feel you need it - too late, too late"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:35 AM

This whole thread has been filled with lies from you and from Teribus

Now the only problem with that statement Carroll is that so far you have been unable to provide one single example of any such lies have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 07:47 AM

"Just struggling to get Keith to admit his.
Waiting for you to substantiate your Anti- Protestantism terrorism, or "German Spies" claim " or you persistent denials of documented facts, or your accusations of "bigotry" or your saying something one minute and denying you said it the next..... or...... should I go on?
I love the way both of you deny holding opinions then go on to prove that you still do "Irish Independence" being a case in point.
You have proved nothing, you have substantiated nothing, you have arrogantly only ever provided your own opinions dressed up as fackts totally without backup
"Carroll"
Whoops your 'insecurity slip is showing again miss' Jim's the name and bigoted troll-slaying is the game
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM

A pretty fair summing-up of the history of Protestant Ulster in text and photographs - for those interested in such things!
Jim Carroll

From 'Ireland, a Terrible Beauty, Jill and Leon Uris, 1976
The Celtic word "Belfast" means "approach to the sand spit." Until 1600 there wasn't much there but a wide spot in the river. An early member of the Chichester family staked claim to it after the "Flight of the Earls" and received a charter for a family borough. Belfast and surrounding Counties Down and Antrim are the true heartland of the Presbyterian settlement.
For the first hundred years the community toddled along, establishing a middling trading and commercial town. In addition to the Presbyterian qualities of piety and hard work, the originals from Scotland were liberal and enlightened. They, too, had come under persecution from many of the Penal Laws, and a great number emigrated to America in the eighteenth-century Scotch-Irish exodus.
Theobald Wolfe Tone found the atmosphere so rich that the United Irishmen was born in Belfast. When the first Catholic church was established at the end of the eighteenth century, an openhearted Presbyterian community greeted it with brotherly love.
Her situation at the geographical center of Presbyterian Down and Antrim, on a natural body of navigable water, caused Belfast to extend her boundaries continually in monotonous red brick clusters.
Nearly all of the early population came in from surrounding farm lands, where communal living and work sharing were traditional. The togetherness of the agrarian society was continued in Belfast. People banded together in sub-communities, giving the town more an appearance of little linked-up villages than that of an urban center.
The open-minded character of the people faded during the Wolfe Tone Uprising of 1798. Belfast itself was reasonably placid, but out on the land the division between Catholic and Protestant had opened and then split into a permanent scar with the formation of the Orange Order.
By 1800, Belfast had entered the Industrial Revolution, a half century late. An enormous textile complex brought with it the vilest slums in the British Isles. Agricultural landlordism found its urban counterpart in the creation of a raw, ugly monstrosity. The Marquess of Donegal became one of the largest rent collectors in the realm, squandering his fortune into bankruptcy through gambling, and letting the ill-conceived housing fall further into squalor.
The stink of Belfast's poor districts flowed in open sewers and erupted from piles of uncollected dunghills; it was inter-mixed with the odors of home breweries, tanneries, and ammoniated urine on walls and gutters. The defilement was locked inside tight little courtyarded dwellings, and air and light were locked out. Families numbering a dozen or more huddled in single-room hovels without water or sanitation. The few public bathhouses could not cope with the crush of filth. Open sores, matted hair, warped growth, and sunken-eyed madness were the dress of the people.
The looms boomed on relentlessly, first cotton, then linen. The more delicate linen work required women and children. The latter were supplied by overcrowded orphanages. Belfast, like Derry, became a city of female labor toiling in unspeakably dingy, unsafe factories.
For Belfast's first two hundred years, there was no significant Catholic population. They drifted in, in the wake of evictions and perennial unemployment, and the trickle became a flood during and after the famine. Like the Presbyterians, they set¬tled in their own small communities around the heartbeat of a church. Neither welcome nor wanted, they came into an established order in which they shared no involvement. Job competition was already fierce, and the massive Catholic influx terrified the Protestant workers like nothing else. Catholic villages linked up in the western part of the city. In other areas Catholics lived in surrounded enclaves such as Ardoyne, New Lodge, and Short Strand. What were once communal settlements became tribal areas of two hostile clans.
Industry exploded for fair with the arrival of the power loom. About the girth of Lough Belfast and in towns to the south, hundreds of looms sprang up along avenues of running water. With the collapse of cotton during the American Civil War, Bel¬fast became the linen capital of the world.
In 1859 the Harland and Wolff shipyard opened to become the very power base of Belfast's industrial might. For the first time thousands of males were put to work . . . but nearly to a man they were Protestant. The Belfast complex multiplied into heavy machinery, armaments, ropemaking, distilling, tobacco, flour, graving docks, and a major port.
Nothing would ever again keep the pall of smoke from inundating Belfast. By 1870, commissions of inquiry expressed deep concern over air and water pollution. This was causing debilitation of workers, particularly in jobs like hackling linen, and a fair part of the work force kept going on alcohol and dope.
Protestant slums and the waterfront were desperate with crime and inhumanity. Catholic slums were the worst cesspools in the British Isles, and neither law nor even clergy cared to visit. They were frequent hosts to onslaughts of cholera and typhoid, with an incidence of TB double that of the rest of Britain. Beggars, fever carts, workhouses, prostitution, killings, all in a haze of alcohol, were workaday. When there was no dog- or cockfight to wager on, mothers threw their sons into the pit to battle themselves bloody for a penny or two.
Outside the ghettos, great blocklike, uninspired Victorian edifices created a contrast of elegance with putridity, grandeur of empire with swill. As buildings for commerce, industry, and government rose in the center, a necklace of manor houses hugged the sea in the world's newest Gold Coast.
The "Golden Age of Riots" entered to the sound of the damnations of fire-breathing evangelists who kept the Protestant poor on knife's edge. Mammoth open-air meetings by the Rev. Messrs. Drew, Cooke, Hanna, and their ilk burst into savage sectarian rioting in 1813, 1832, 1835, 1852, 1864, 1872, 1880, 1884, 1886, and 1898. Commissions of inquiry just couldn't figure out what was the matter. Post-World War I riots against Catholics raged in the early 1920s and into the depression years. This "Lord's work" has been valiantly carried on by the Ian Paisleys with unrelenting fury, directly up to the recent holocaust.
It has always been the poor harangued to fight the poor, the tribal units of Protestants in Sandy Row, Shankill, and East Belfast pitted against Catholic tribes in the Falls and Andersontown.
When Belfast was granted city status in 1888 the structure of rule was firmly implanted. The gentry had gained control of the Unionist Party with the interlocked power of the Orange Order and a segment of rabble-rousing clergy. Police and government apparatus were solidly in their hands. Belfast was divided into fifteen wards, two of them going to the Catholics with twenty- five per cent of the population.
By the twentieth century Belfast was a major spoke in the British scheme of things, a manufacturing giant with a windfall for the elite and prosperity for many. For the poor, Protestant loyalty was rewarded by jobs. It was Ulsterism at its grossest level, a society existing by committing economic homicide on the native. The good life here and all things from it were tied to the benefits of being a British city, and any talk of Irish rule or a split from the Motherland brought a reaction of frenzy.
This skillful separation of the working classes has always been the principal canon of Ulsterism. The deplorable housing continues on. Outdoor privies abound. Progress for the workingman is replaced by threats of unemployment. Liberal thought is ** drenched under Orange nonsense and holy-rolling muckraking.
In the end the Protestant worker has been bilked. He, too, has been kept on the edge of squalor, and his diet of medieval meanderings is all he has to hang on to. He continues to live a breath away from a riot.
Belfast was put into business for a certain purpose, and she operated in a certain manner. She is the mongoloid child born out of British imperialism, the water and oil that would never mix, and a blight on the human spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM

Waiting for you to substantiate

Good heavens Jim, it would appear that both Keith A and I seem to have been waiting for you to substantiate a hell of a lot more.

Having trouble with that crap of yours about German spies? Not that surprising really is it Jim - you made it up, so you had best substantiate it.

On the persecution of Protestants in Eire just look at the links you have posted.