BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM

German Chancellor Angela Merkel declared that Christianity is "the most persecuted religion in the world."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM

"That is why I will not talk about all that other shit."
Your prerogative - mind your own business that people want to put all religion into perspective rather taking your "up our side" approach.
Go and open your own thread and put up a "keep off the grass" notice if you want it to be populated by nodding dogs" - and go and look at the few 'Mudcat' rules there are - you are not a director of discussion, just 'one of the ants', same as the rest of us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM

Yes.
A lot of people here "want to put all religion into perspective" rather than discuss people being tortured and killed because of their faith.

They especially do not want to know that the victims are overwhelmingly Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

"That is why I will not talk about all that other shit."
Your prerogative - mind your own business that people want to put all religion into perspective rather taking your "up our side" approach.
Go and open your own thread
.,,.
In fairness, Jim ~~ Keith opened this thread; so I can't quite see what you mean by enjoining him to 'open [his] own thread': when that is precisely what he did ~~ THIS ONE!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:38 AM

...discuss people being tortured and killed because of their faith...

Whilst ignoring people tortured and killed BY the various "faiths" including "Christianity"[sic], yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM

Ok Keith. Merkel said it too. And as you said, she isn't CofE or Catholic.

You felt it relevant to point out what she isn't. After all, you are saying she must be objective then?

She does after all think about matters concerning Christians considering she is leader of the Christian Democrats.

I know you think I'm thick but if you wish to insult the intelligence of everybody, try not to be so shallow eh?



(That ok mudelves?)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 03:06 PM

extremist and bigoted declarations"

I couldn't see anything in any of Keith's posts on this thread remotely matching that declaration, Jim. It's a long thread so I could have missed something I suppose. Perhaps you could indicate one.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 04:15 PM

"In fairness, Jim ~~ Keith opened this thread"
Threads are like children Mike - they have to be allowed to make their own way once they leave home.
Keith is the only member of this forum who persistently attempts to steer threads into his comfort zone - it has now become a major part of his contribution.
It is ludicrous to suggest that we can't discuss why religious persecution takes place on a thread like this.
I'll pull out a thread where he persistently complained about "thread drift" and when he drifted away himself and was challenged on it he replied "thread drift happens".
It is a form of censorship to attempt to restrict discussion in any shape or form
Mac
Don't agree - suggest you read through some of his contributions - not prepared to "thread drift" in that direction here for fear of the rap on the knuckles I would undoubtedly receive!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 07:10 PM

It's a very long thread. I've read a lot of it, more especially the posts since it was revived in the wake of last months horrible atrocity in Peshawar, in which 85 churchgoers were killed, and I didn't see anything fitting those words of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

Are those being persecuted mainly Christians? Is there any proof for this claim? I see a lot of highlighting it as an issue but most of that referred to in this thread fails to highlight religious persecution per se.

Why is that?

Why do balanced articles 1) point out persecution in the name of Christianity and 2) fail to attract the attention of those pushing the aims of the thread?

Hilarious. I would have a far more stimulating and interesting time listening to the young ladies on the TV channels that only come on late at night. Oh! is that the time?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 02:50 AM

Don't agree - suggest you read through some of his contributions - not prepared to "thread drift" in that direction here for fear of the rap on the knuckles I would undoubtedly receive!

You have my blessing to go ahead Jim.
I already invited you to produce one. Remember?

Musket, you suggested this was a CofE plot.
That is why I mentioned Merkel.

I have linked to lots of evidence that persecution is a particular issue for Christians.
No-one has put up a single thing that in any way challenges that fact.
Now would be a good time for it Musket.
What do you have?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM

Musket: It was Keith who OP'd this thread with a specific title. Because he tries to deal with the phenomenon subsumed by that title, and not with comparable ones regarding other demographics with which he chose explicitly not to engage, you say he is drifting, or failing to get to grips with the problem.

But it is in fact you who are doing those things. If the category "Christian Persecution", the specific title of this thread, is not broad enough to suit your notions, then start your own thread on persecution in general. But it's no good denouncing a thread, or its OP, for not doing what they quite explicitly never set out to do. It's just silly; and obstructive; and deflective.

And Jim: I know threads, like children, escape their progenitors and go their own way. So what the hell's the use of constantly enjoining the person who originated this one to originate another, presumably with some strange faith that it will be immune from such strayings & deflections 2nd time round?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,musket playing your game
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:05 AM

So be grateful.

Persecution is a particular issue for Christians.

There.

Where Christians are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular issue for Muslims.
Where Muslims are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular issue for Sikhs.
Where Sikhs are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular issue for Buddhists.
Where Buddhists are being persecuted.

Persecution is a particular problem for gays, trade unionists, atheists, supporters of freedom and democracy, victims of rape carrying a foetus, people with mental health issues...... where persecution is a problem.

Get it into your thick skull that persecution is wrong and to highlight one particular brand as being a particular issue is sickening to say the least. You are never going to get anything done about one type of persecution by elevating it. Persecution itself is wrong. Attempts by the Anglican worldwide community to highlight it just serves to piss off other cults and normal people under persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

"I already invited you to produce one. Remember?"
I don't want the blessings (or prayers) of a measly-mouthed Christian - or any other particular brand of hypocrite.
You have had my examples of your extremism over and over again
You deny that a woman who died due to religiously enforced rules was a victim of those rules, you blame the medical staff (errors aside - she could have had a termination - but was refused one) and you implicitly suggest that she and her husband were to blame for choosing to live in a country and not moving away - was this not your suggestion and is this nor the obvious conclusion of your cowardly silence on the death of Sarita Halappanava.
That is extremism - if you choose to live in a country, you become responsible for its oppressive laws or you move somewhere else.
You have told me the same thing - it is my choice to live in a country with oppressive laws - if you don't like them, move out.
You have throughout this argument denied that the church has any influence on the laws of the countries that are described as "Christian/Catholic" yet you produce a list of countries refusing termination of pregnancy - the majority of those are Christian countries - you refuse even to acknowledge this, let alone comment on the inevitable conclusion that these laws are religion inspired.
You blame the victims of these laws themselves for not removing the politicians fro office or from (most disgusting of all) "being afraid of saying "no" to the priest".
The German Jews who perished in the camps where themselves to blame for their own fate for remaining in Nazi Germany - would I have that right?
In the past you have even put the continuing potential and actual religious based conflict in the six Northern Counties of this country down to "the actions of bored children"
Your extremism here is part of the same crusade you have mounted on every other thread - you have fought tooth and nail to keep us from discussing the causes of religious persecution and with us to wail and want only to discuss the persecution of Christians by Muslim extremists.
Elsewhere you have refused to discuss the causes of the rise to power of Muslim extremism - arms sales, religion-based land seizure, trade with seizure despotic feudal rulers, refusal to help a people being slaughtered
Your extremism is based on your hatred of all Muslims - your statements echo those of organisations who have made the lives of immigrants to Britain both miserable and dangerous - you are now noted for this fact on this forum - your one claim to fame
Now where did I put those tea-leaves - You will now tell me I am lying
The conclusion of all these subjects is to one degree or another the same - give any church an inch of power and you open the doors to religious abuse - it is the built-in inevitability of all religions that are allowed and encouraged to overstep their spiritual role.
Your persistent attempts to prevent us from discussing this fact is an open display of your extremism.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 04:52 AM

Musket, I agree with your last post, and would welcome and join discussion of all persecution on grounds of belief.
If it is true that one group is suffering significantly more than others, I think it reasonable to comment on it.
That would not be to denigrate concern for other persecutions.

When Geldorf and Live Aid focused on the starvation in Ethiopia, did you feel it wrong to say that Ethiopia had the worst famine, because there was starvation elsewhere too?

In recent years, persecution of Christians exceeds all others and is driving their communities to extinction in many lands.
Why must I not refer to that Musket?
Is that true of any of the other groups you listed?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:28 AM

Somebody further up the thread (possibly MGoH, I'm not certain) made the entirely sensible comment that, in most cases, persecution is more a matter of being in a minority and having a different culture, than worshipping in a different way.

Sunnis and Shiites share a religion, but interpret it differently, and whichever group is a minority is persecuted by the other.

Muslims are persecuted in Christian countries, and vice versa, based upon being a minority.

Specious argument about religious reasons descends to the level of inanity when the same poster who is decrying the persecution of a number of minority populations, is at the same time suggesting that, in Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run could, and should, get out and live elsewhere.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

suggesting that, in Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run could, and should, get out and live elsewhere.

Not what I said at all Don.
Eire is a free, democratic and secular country.
The Catholic Church has no role in its law-making (unlike the Anglican Church in UK)

In no country does every law suit every citizen or foreign guest.
Choices have to be made.
Choosing somewhere else is one.
Democratic processes to make changes are another.

Demanding they change their country to be more like ours is just colonialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM

suggesting that, in Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run could, and should, get out and live elsewhere.

How about "In Eire, the people choose how the country is run.
In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM

"In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough"
Not sure what you mean but how about 'in any country whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source' in the cases of religion dominated countries, the churches who indoctrinate the beliefs into children from birth.
You have not responded to one of my points again, not even to deny them.
Am I to assume that all German Jews who went to the death camps were to blame for not living elsewhere?
THis thread is entitled Christian persecution
You have persistently attempted to restrict it to persecution of and not by Christians.
You do this in order to use the suffering of one religion to inflict suffering on the faithful of another religion
You are a bigoted extremist - end of story
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM

I had no idea that Christian groups were badly persecuted around the world. If it's true that Christians are one of the most intensively - or indeed the most intensively - persecuted religious groups worldwide I'm surprised it hasn't captured the serious attention of our media.

I'm afraid the thread is very long and I'd rather not trawl through the infighting, perhaps Keith or others interested in the topic would be willing to link to some worthwhile articles and news pieces discussing the subject matter of the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:29 AM

You have persistently attempted to restrict it to persecution of and not by Christians.

Not true.
Any and all religious persecution should be discussed here.

What has Ireland's democracy got to do with it?
In Eire, the people choose how the country is run.
In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:49 AM

CS, these were all given by me as links just since the thread reopened.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10264499/The-almost-unremarked-tragedy-of-Christians-persecuted-in-the-Middle-East.html

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2013/aug/2/putin-world-leaders-should-unite-end-anti-chri

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/christianity-most-persecuted-religion_b_2402644.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/christianophobia-a-faith-under-attack-by-rupert-shortt-8274142.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM

Thanks for flagging them up again, I'll take a look later.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 07:45 AM

Jim.
how about 'in any country whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source'

My comment was about Ireland.
Please clarify exactly what you would root out in Ireland, and what you think the Irish would say to you about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:16 AM

"Any and all religious persecution should be discussed here.
"
Then why have you persisted in insisting that we discuss only the persecution of Christians (as pointed out by MtheGM)) and accused those of us who wish to discuss the reasons for all religious persecution as guilty of thread drift?   
Your repetition about Irish democracy and total failure to respond to the influence of the Church in any religion based country is an indication that you mean to go on with your now farcical attempts to use the religious persecution of one group as a weapon to persecute another.
All your links refer to the persecution of Christians, mainly by Muslim extremists, you have denied all examples of persecution by Christian you have been given as being unimportant or not true - what's your point - you've just confirmed mine?
And your silence indicates that you believe that those Jews who 'chose' to remain in Nazi Germany when they were in a position to go somewhere else were responsible for their own fate.
Have a nice day

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:36 AM

you have denied all examples of persecution by Christian

No I have not.
You just have not produced any recent examples, and I do not regard Ireland's choice of laws as any kind of persecution.

Now please tell us what you want to root out of Ireland Jim!
Catholics?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:24 AM

Interesting debating point to be fair regarding Live Aid and highlighting Ethiopia.

I don't think it is a comparison though. We are aware of many persecution issues and my beef remains that highlighting one cult regardless of type or location betrays a not well hidden agenda.

Live Aid was after Bob Geldof and Midge Ure both saw a particular BBC news coverage of the then draught in Ethiopia. That gave them the focus. The original relief work emanating from Live Aid was carried out over a much larger geographical area, mainly the horn of Africa and a close family member was based in Eritrea for them.

I don't think the focus on the BBC footage being shot in Ethiopia was a selective focus, just happened to be where the story came from.

The reaction was far more widespread.

The only way it would be comparable would be if your original post was to look at the news stories concerning Christian persecution and use it as an example of persecution in general. Having just checked, you didn't and the Christian aspect remained as much your debating point as the persecution involved.

Hence my very strong reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM

Was it wrong of me to start a thread about the horror of the war in Syria, when there is horror alsewhere in lesser wars?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:32 AM

"Now please tell us what you want to root out of Ireland Jim"
Not just Ireland - I want to see the influence of the church removed from the laws of every single country and the malevolent influence on the minds of the people where they are having a detrimental effect, which includes those on your list the majority of which are described as Christian.
Your denial of any such influences is here to be found and your response that "if we don't like them we should move somewhere else" can be equally applied to Christians suffering persecution at the hands of others - why make a special case for Christianity which has a centuries-old reputation for persecuting non or contradictory believers, and even Christian doubters - you've made the point clearly enough "accept it or go somewhere else"?
Your continually cowardly refusal to respond to my question makes your position on the Jewish victim of Nazism - they were willing participants in their own fate because they allowed it to happen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

If Christians or any other religious, ethnic, sexually oriented, differently abled (etceras) group are suffering significantly, it's entirely relevant to highlight that, here or anywhere. I'm quite puzzled at the degree of hostility this thread has seemingly generated. Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to the OP rather than any special bigotry this forum harbours against Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:48 AM

Bigotry towards Christians isn't the issue. The issue generally where religion is a debating point is that of using Christianity to justify more temporal views. The interesting point in this and contemporary threads is that of defining Christian.

I am left even further confused by what is meant by "As a Christian" or "Christians do / don't do..." The fully understandable pick n mix approach does serve to make the stance baseless outside of your personal Creed.

Which makes slurring rational people all the more distasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:04 PM

Guest, CS

It's not so much anti-Christian bigotry that is on display as it is because of the fact that much of the anti-Christian persecution is being perpetrated by those who profess to be of the Muslim faith and that triggers a knee-jerk reaction by the usual mob who scream Islamophobia whenever attention is drawn to atrocities commited by Islamists.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:07 PM

your position on the Jewish victim of Nazism - they were willing participants in their own fate because they allowed it to happen.
.,,.
There is in fact just enough truth in that to make it an uncomfortable thought, Jim Many were just too slow to react until it was too late, or refused to take the developing situation seriously enough. Remember Mr Van Daan in the dramatic version of The Diary Of Anne Frank, screaming at his wife at one point, and denouncing her to all the others, "I could have been safe in America, but she wouldn't leave her bloody furniture!"

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:10 PM

knee-jerk reaction by the usual mob who scream Islamophobia whenever attention is drawn to atrocities commited by Islamists.

Ditto the knee-jerk reaction by the usual mob who scream 'Christian Persecution' whenever attention is drawn to atrocities commited by Christians[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:52 PM

I don't know who "the usual mob" are Greg F. but then I don't spend a lot of time here these days. As for the wrongs perpetrated in the name of Christ or by Christians, yes I'm well aware of those; including the hideous Catholic Church's corruption re: child abuse, including Mother Teresa's gig, and more, but still these people who are today suffering are suffering, and they don't deserve to be persecuted for their faith, whatever others have done in the name of it.

These folk being persecuted are from what I can gather mostly poor, previously colonised, and non-white, they are not the abusers here, but the abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:59 PM

There is in fact just enough truth in that to make it an uncomfortable thought"
I wonder if you followed the recent beautifully presented Simon Scharma series, the second (I think) of which covered the school of thought which advocated it was possible for Jews to live under Nazism?
But this in no way absolves the Nazis, any more than Keith's argument (I'm at a loss to come up with a better description for his persistent moronic repetition) that "if you don't like oppressive laws, move somewhere else".
I was brought up with the idea that if you don't like oppression you fight it, not piss off and leave your friends and neighbours to make their own way.
Nobody here is denying and certainly not supporting the persecution of Christians - it goes on and it's evil.
Keith is denying that persecution by Christian churches happens, both actually and by the implication that the church is ineffectual and it's influence is either unimportant or easily removable.
What has wrought the few small changes that have taken place have been brought about by the fact that its abuses have reached boiling point.
Keith's continuing refusal to acknowledge that the Magdalene Laundries, Industrial Schools and Clerical abuse are extreme examples of persecution by a Christian church is to support persecution - certainly not a 'first' for Keith.
We haven't even begun to discuss the Church's role in supporting some of the most murderous regimes in the world, and if Keith had his way he would rule it 'off topic' - fat chance!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM

"Nobody here is denying and certainly not supporting the persecution of Christians - it goes on and it's evil."

Fair enough Jim, I'm glad to see that's your stated position. It's a big thread as I said, and I probably missed a lot of pertinent content scanning through.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM

Not just Ireland - I want to see the influence of the church removed from the laws of every single country

OK Jim, so what specifically do you want rooted out of Ireland?
The Catholic Church, or all Catholics?

Either way you will have the Irish people against you.
Just who do you think you are to want to dictate how they should run THEIR country?

Keith is denying that persecution by Christian churches happens,

No I am not, but the laws a democratic, secular country makes for itself ARE NOT PERSECUTION!
Do you have any examples of actual persecution of a people for their belief by Christians?
I will denounce it at once.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM

Jim ~~ My point about the 1930s Jews was more for a sort of exemplary interest than to prove any specific point.

I quite admired some of Schama's programmes; & he managed mainly to be pretty objective: but thought that there was something of a negative agenda in the last one's failure to mention the assassination of Count Bernadotte, the blowing up of the King David Hotel, & the two hanged British sergeants ~~ all events of considerable significance, & great traumas to all of us at the time & since.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:36 PM

I have seen a lot of evidence of a profound disagreement between Jim and Keith, especially about legal situation in Ireland regarding abortion. But I cannot see that anything Keith has written in this thread about this amounts to "extremist and bigoted declarations".

It has to be recognised that the law and any government operates in the context of a constitution, and of two binding referendums that place strict restrictions on abortion law in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM

I read today that the freedom foundation [a secular body, I understand] on collecting details of different countries , finds that those with Christian foundation rate the highest for personal freedoms for their populations, whilst muslim and communist rule are worse.
it is such restrictive countries that are less likely to tolerate criticism of its govt or religious rule than say , GB/USA, where dissenters can rant on about the system and Christianity ,secure in the knowledge that they wont be imprisoned, executed, or disappear all of a sudden.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM

The "Freedom Foundation", Pete? You mean the faux "think tank" launched by the U.S of A's own Bob Williams, Republican TeaParty ex-congressman, born-again idiot, anti-government lunatic and wholesale purveyor of bullshit?

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM

[In Ireland] the law and any government operates in the context of a constitution

Assuming that this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland is correct as stated (a large assumption with Blog-O Paedia) it is evident that a great number of strictures enacted therein are due to the tenets of so-called "Christians"[sic] to the detriment of and discrimination against non-conforming elements of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Like it or not, that's the Constitution, endorsed and amended from time to time by the Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 02:55 AM

Thank you for that appraisal McGrath.

This from Jim IS an extremist and bigoted declaration.

"In Eire, anybody who doesn't agree with the way the country is run can live elsewhere if they feel strongly enough"
Not sure what you mean but how about 'in any country whose laws contain great injustices, you root out the causes of those injustices and uproot them at the source' in the cases of religion dominated countries, the churches.."

You would root out the churches from Ireland in a bloodbath of persecution.
No wonder you object to this thread.

(You would also destroy the unique culture that you love Jim.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:35 AM

"The Catholic Church, or all Catholics?"
You obviously intend to continue your dishonest farce by either not reading what people write or deliberately misrepresenting the opinions of others.
You have no idea what the Irish people would or would not oppose, your entire input here has been a display of total ignorance of Catholics and Catholicism.
Given your having been totally discredited in everything you have claimed, I have been waiting for you to scurry into your usual bolt-hole "I'm no expert, just giving the opinions of those who are", - but as you've presented no 'expert evidence', obviously not an option.
I have said over and over again that I believe that all religious persecution is based on the inordinate power held by a Church that is prepared to abuse that power.
Until that grip is broken the abuse will continue - "religion and politics is a toxic mix" and the faithful are just as prone to religious persecution as are non-or-contrary believers.
If you can produce one single indication that I have suggested "Catholics" to be the problem rather than the Church, do so - I won't ask you to withdraw your accusation or apologise - you don't do the first and you have described apologising as "snivelling" elsewhere.
The revelations of the abuses of the Laundries, Industrial Schools and the Church protected Clerical rapes have loosened that grip.
The changes in the laws on pregnancy termination have been brought about by widespread protest.
The power of the church in Ireland is on the wane, mainly due to its own excesses - I hope to live long enough to see it confined to its rightful role of purely spiritual guidance willingly accepted and not forcibly drummed into people from birth.   
Those Church imposed laws remain unchanged in all the Christian churches on the list you were kind enough to provide for us.
Shamefully, you have not even had the decency to refer to the the now tried and proven church's role the institutional abuses and rapes, and you have denied that the Church is in any way to blame for primitive termination laws
You ask for examples of your extremism, you are given them - and you completely ignore those examples.   
Don't you dare try to talk down to me from the hole you have dug yourself into.
Mike;
I haven't see the last two Scharmer programmes in full yet - still waiting on the Sky box, but Martin Walker's mind-lingering account of the Holocaust covered some of the same points I put forward.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:43 AM

"No wonder you object to this thread"
By the way - I have never said I object to this thread - I object to your manipulating it as part of your on-going hate campaign.
You really are a shamelessly lying little twot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:21 AM

Yet again, Jim: do realise that Keith OP'd this thread, quite manifestly to draw attention to one specific, indisputable, properly documented ongoing situation regarding one faith; which numerically surpasses any other similar instances at present. He has nowhere described this situation as unique, either historically or at present ubiquitously, or claimed that others should not be considered on their own threads; but that was obviously the topic he intended his thread to cover. Not every thread can cover every relevant instance, or we shouldn't be able, above the line, to have a thread on any folksong without dealing with the entirety of Roud!

You have introduced some other instances, which you will recall I agreed with you were equally iniquitous and did constitute a form of 'persecution'; but these were nevertheless, properly viewed, tangential to the main aim & intent of Keith's thread.

So it is a bit rich on your part, isn't it?, to accuse Keith of "manipulating" the thread.

Just ask yourself, in all honesty [if such a concept is not, as I sometimes fear, entirely foreign to your perceptions] --

just exactly who is doing any 'manipulating'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:26 AM

one single indication that I have suggested "Catholics" to be the problem rather than the Church,

If there were no Catholic Church, there would be no Catholics!

You have no idea what the Irish people would or would not oppose,

I am sure that the Catholics would oppose the "rooting out" of their churches.
That is pretty extreme Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:27 AM

...and do please endeavour to respond, if you wish to do so, without any mention of pudenda, or facetious irrelevances about fairytale characters &c ~~ a once maybe marginally amusing leitmotif which has long-since become so threadbare as to have outworn any vestige of humour it might ever have possessed.