BS: Faith

Subject: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:09 AM

With all of the threads about religion, I don't ever remember one about faith. Most of the threads are divisive, pitting people against each other. But, everyone lives by faith. And hope. At least, that's what I believe. In Hebrews 11:1, faith is described this way: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith and hope are inseparable from each other.

I believe that every Catter has faith and hope. Faith and hope may get a little shakey when you're in a depression, I know. But in the long run, it is faith and hope that will bring you through.

Faith has no denomination. Friends of mine like Bill D have a strong faith, and is an Atheist. I don't consider that an oxymoron. I would love to see us set aside our judgment of religions for a minute and just share what we have faith in. That's where our common ground is. So, what gets you through the dark night of the soul? What (or who) gives you hope when everything seems hopeless? Faith and trust are soul mates, too. If you are married, faith is an essential ingredient. If your mate is "unfaithful" to you, there is no way you can have hope. Whenever you have a loving relationship with someone, in and out of marriage, or just in a friendship, you need to have faith in the other person.

And then, as part of the trifecta, there is love. In 1st Corinthians 13:13 it says "Amd now abideth faith, hope and love; but the greatest of these is love."

Whatever your faith is, it is at the heart of who you are. That holds true if you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic or Atheist. I respect you all. If you aren't uncomfortable about it,
I'd love to hear what the foundation of your life is. I'm not concerned about what religion you belong to, or if you don't belong to any. I would just find it refreshing and uplifting to hear where you heart lies.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:17 AM

Good subject for a discussion, Jerry. I have always separated my religion (community) from my faith.

I think that I have always had faith in the belief good will triumph over evil. This leads me to believe in the basic goodness of wo/mankind. There will be aberrations, Hitler being one, but ultimately I have to have faith that we will do the right thing. If not, then hope is lost and if that happens, what is left?

I think I am going to stop here and think this through more. One sign of a great thread for me is when I start to write and my mind starts running down 12 "what if" paths at once. I think this is going to be a good one.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: "Love" v "charity"
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

Paul used the word agape in that letter to the Christian community at Corinth, which was usually rendered as love elsewhere in the NT (where it applies to God's love). Agape in classical Greek writing has the senes of love, founded in admiration, veneration, esteem; i.e. human love, but not in the erotic sense. Jerome, translating into Latin, used caritas to distinguish this sense; charity, the English equivalent, has largely lost this sense today (although the opposite of uncharitable would be nearly right). Think of the sense Jesus meant when he said inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Just be good to one another!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: mooman
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

As a Buddhist I can certainly subscribe to Jerry's post. The following is from a Christian site about Buddhism and pretty well sums up my philosophy

To the Buddhist, whether we speak of "rights" or "duty," when the illusion of self disappears, neighbour, beast, mountain, and tree all cry out for the same respect, freedom, and charity.

Excellent thread topic Jerry.

Peace to all,

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:48 AM

Some of the best people I know seem to live with a great inner certainty about the unfolding of life -- that it is meaningful, and positive, From that foundation, they get throught he tribulations with courage and humor, because their core truth doesn't waver -- they know they will be all right and can make good things happen, and the universe will go along with that.

This certainty also informs the way they communicate, the way they deal with others, and their general grace in living. It is what I think of as faith, in its essence, because I have little patience with labels and icons and the sort of mechanism that formalized religions seem fond of. It is a faith in the power of the universe for good, and it transcends all labels and categories. It is just as true for a Hindu as it is for a Communist. ANd it does not shake easily.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:53 AM

What about Hope and Charity ?

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobjack
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Faith Hill. woof!

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM

I like faith. It helps me believe in myself:-)

Or a more serious application of the same argument. If you can believe that something is right, or wrong for that matter, you must believe in your own powers of thought and reasoning. If you can believe in your own powers of thought and reasoning you must have faith in yourself. If you have faith in yourself it is a simple step to have faith in somthing else.

How can those who claim to have no faith at all expect us to believe that they have faith enough in themselves to win their own arguments?

Works for me;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM

Hey, mooman:

I have two sons. My oldest son believes in God, and considers himself a Catholic, although he is not particularly committed to a particular denomination. My youngest son was very serious about christianity growing up, and is an Agnostic now. And still very serious about spiritual matters. When he was a teenage, he became very interested in Buddhism, and read extensively. We talked a lot about Buddhism, and all the goodness in the faith. I believe that in time, he will come back to God... either as a Christian or a Buddhist.
There is much to be praised in both faiths.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

And Steve: Thanks for the illumination on charity and love. I wonder if anyone remembers the Donna Summers and Musical Youth song
Everlasting Love? It's the only pop song I can think of that refers to agape.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

My understanding of Creation is this:

Creation cannot be separated from the Creator. Creation is what happens when Divinity expresses itself in form. All beings are tiny sparks of Divinity. Consciousness is Divinity being aware of itself. Creation has purpose. The purpose of Creation is learning and growth.

So for me, faith comes with the understanding that everything that happens contributes to my learning and my growth. And that, in turn, contributes to the learning and growth of all of Creation, and of Divinity.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:05 PM

As a Jew, my faith is in God.

God lives in us and we through Him.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:20 PM

If you don't have a God -- or some such underlying fundamental principle -- to authorise the tenets of your belief, then youcan't justify your beliefs as being essential, correct or necessary. I realised this a good many years ago, before my faith in God "wore off". To me, using a Creator to explain where everything came from doesn't answer the question: it's simply adding an extra step to the conception that the universe is everything there is and there isn't any "before" or "outside" or "other". (I look forward to being proved wrong on this, by the way!)

Without God to back up what I think, there is no meaning to my thoughts, and no meaning to existence. I suppose I could get used to that idea, but it will take a long time ... instead, I can say (I have to say) that it all has meaning because I choose to give it meaning. But this means I can't believe that my thoughts are more correct than yours, or vice versa. I'm content to accept that no-one whose beliefs I know of (by which I mean the major religious faiths) has the full and exact answer; but that many have a set of beliefs that are valid for part of the answer. Remember the story of the wise men and the elephant? They'd never seen one, but had the oportunity to examine one without being able to see it: the first said it was like a huge muscular snake, the next said it was like a great leathery wall, and the last said it was like a length of rope; all equally valid, but only within their limited scope.

My brain starts to hurt when I've got this far, so I'll leave off philosophising now; but I hope I've got my point -- however pointless! -- across.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM

I believe that God works in our lives and blesses us in small and not so small ways. He speaks to us and helps us make decisions which lead us to even more blessings. This is where Faith come in for me. I have the utmost Faith that He, not only has He done this going back to when I was 6 years old and very sick with polio, but will contiune to do so today and for all my tomorrows. His guiding hand doesn't go un-noticed or unappreciated...

Fir me, one of the strongest allies of Faith is patience. Gos has time tables for me and those are in His hands. That's probably the most difficult aspect of Faith but it indeed very much part of Faith.

Good thoughtful thread, Brother Jerry and...

Love to you and Ruth...

Brother Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:28 PM

Things have meaning because they have meaning. You did not "choose" to give meaning to anything evolution invented meaning and it is built in to all the organisms of the biosphere.
This absolutist relativism is un-founded.
Do you think that I and the other organisms on this planet are a figment of your imagination?
The existence of other entities is implicit in all language including animal language.        
The meaning of life is to live.
Faith usually means believing in things for which there is no evidence.
I'm not an atheist I just don't believe in God, Father Christmas, the tooth fairy and lots of other evidence-less propositions.
If you mean by faith the drive to get up in the morning and enjoy living in social interaction with other people and learning, then I have faith just like the faith of Tigers and Gazelles.

Sum ergo cogito.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:43 PM

Hey Bobert:

I think it was brucie who told me this one... a prayer to the Lord. "Dear God, grant me patience, and will you hurry up about it?"

You want a tough one? How about "Your will, not mine."

Whoeeee!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

Interesting post Mick. Doesn't doing the right thing, though, depend on one's pov?

I have faith in GWB, for example, and that he did the right thing by invading Iraq. Others have no faith in him and think it was the wrong thing to do. Different points of view. Who is to say who is right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:58 PM

Remember the rock band, Blind Faith?

:-)

Clearly, our faith is correct, and other's who don't agree with us have blind faith. Truth is, we are all prone to confusing our own will with the power of another person or entity's. I sure have done it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

Interesting post Mick. Isn't "the right thing" dependent on one's point of view though?

Example: I have faith in GWB and think he did the right thing by removing Saddam from power. Others have no faith in GWB and think he was wrong to remove Saddam. Different points of view as to what the "right thing" was.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

Mixing faith and politics is not recommended. When your life is looking bleak and hopeless, who you gonna call? Certainly not a politician..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:36 PM

Faith sometimes has value, but faith is a poor substitute for knowledge.

If you are going to jump out of an airplane, would you rather have faith that your parachute is going to open, or know that your parachute is going to open?

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

Jim:

While it depends very much on semantics, I see little difference between the great certainty that physics will continue to operate and the great certainty that the universe will continue to unfold in certain meaningful ways. Can you describe the difference, exactly?
I don't mean to be a wise guy. I am asking seriously.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM

Doug,

Well, if you want GWB to be yer God and have faith that GWB will bless you every day, fine...

I'll stick with my "Big Guy", thankee...

Yeah, Jerry,

Your will, not mine....

Good 'un...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: ranger1
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:07 PM

Faith is believing in something outside myself that I have no control over. I sleep better at night knowing that the sun will rise, natural selection is in full swing, that the universe is expanding, that my partner's love for me knows no bounds, that people are, for the most part, kind.

That said, faith is also believing in myself. In my ability to be the best person I can be, to live up to my potential and to live life to the fullest, but without treading on others to do so.

Faith is trust. Faith is believing that if I treat others the way I myself wish to be treated, that they in turn will do the same. That if I reach out, someone will be there to take my hand. That if someone reaches out to me, I will have the strength to take their hand, no matter what.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

That's an interesting example you give, Jim. Unless you open the parachute after you jump, there is no way you can be 100% sure that it will open. You don't know that as an irrefutable fact. You have yo have faith in the reliability of the parachute.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: NobleSavage
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:15 AM

First, a question: What is the difference between faith and belief?

Next, I think there is a difference between religious faith and secular faith.

I do not claim knowledge of religious faith, so I leave that for those who do.

Such faith as I can know I have rests on my own ability and willingness to find the truth of the world around me, and be faithful to my own values.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:56 AM

I never intended to be sucked into any religious or pseudo-religious discourse. Just so that my philosophy is known, I do not have faith in the existence of "God" as He/She is proclaimed in the bible. I do not deny such existence; I just DON'T KNOW. As far as the O.T. "God" is concerned, I hold the opinion that many of the events and activities attributed to him were anything but "good"; in fact, just the opposite. That Jesus Christ existed and was indeed an outstanding human being I have no doubt. Following His example in our own lives can be no bad thing. Having said that, I cannot believe in "virgin birth". Which brings us to some of the events described in the new testament as "miracles". That the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water I can belive; that He actually DID, I do NOT believe.That a multitude considered themselves fed with five loaves and three wee fishes, I can also believe; I do NOT believe that they really WERE fed! Which brings us too to the power of Faith. Such Faith was engendered in the minds and hearts of men and women by this man Jesus that he put scenes and events before them which they forevermore swore swore to be real, and stated them to be so without a trace of duplicity or intent to deceive. The written records of their experiences has given Faith to millions of human beings--a faith unfortunately distorted and cruelly exploited by charlatans down thro' history. If Jesus was destined to be nailed to the cross for the sins of humanity, then a cursory glance at the horrific machinations of self-proclaimed "Christians" down the centuries from Rome thro' Calvinist Europe, presbyterian and catholic Ireland to the Armageddon maniacs of the American Southt, surely points to the truth for those who genuinel;y believe in the meaning of His crucifixion; He has been hanging there suffering for over two thousand years.
I think my "Faith " in much of biblical prophecy and "miracle" working finally became rationalised [can't think of a better word-]
when I saw a wee lad climb up a rigid rope and disappear at the top. I SAW that happen, but I know it didn't. Like the disciples who saw the Man walk on the water, or those who felt well-fed by three wee fishes. I was convinced by a hypnotist. The same thing happened, I think, to the folk of the bible. Having complete faith in the source of persuaion leads to perceived "miracles". Not always a bad thing---but not always good, either. If the human mind is rid of all fear, and asked to perform some feat or other,some miraculous result can ensue. Let's say---a three-inch broad "I"-beam rigidly connected by supports and suspended forty feet in the air; let's see the untrained person who can walk along its fifty foot length without breaking their neck! Now, set that same beam just as rigidly on a flat and level concrete floor. Get the same folks to walk along it---no trouble at all! They have faith, y'see --and with good reason---that there is no danger, and fear disappears, taking with it the tendency to fall off the beam.
To those who have absolute faith in their god, and who see Him as One who has Love for all, I envy all of you. To those who choose to worship a "divinity" for the reason that they think they will be rewarded by a "place in Heaven" , I do NOT envy you; I hold you in contempt as being of the hordes who will do no good unless there is personal reward at the end of it.
My hobbyhorse is tired---g'night!

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

Hey, Boab:

Thank you for the wonderful, thoughtful post. I have a son who is agnostic who I believe still has an open mind and heart. There are actually two Jesus's. One is on the pages of the book called the Bible. You can read all about him. The other Jesus is the one in my heart, and those who have come to know him as real, because they have a personal relationship with him. For those who know Jesus as being as real as this keyboard, there is no desire for reward for doing his Father's will. If you've had a wonderful friend, or family member, wife, husband or lover, you have a taste of what it is to know Jesus, and whether he fed a crowd of 5,000 with three fishes or 28 with 7 fishes is not the question. When you feel the love of someone, you want to give back to them, in return. The desire to do well is not for reward. It is done out of thanksgiving for what you have been given. Besides, you cannot earn your way into a presence with God after death. If you could, then there would have been no reason for Christ to die on the cross. God could just have said... "Go ahead, earn your own salvation, and good luck." And the doors of heaven could be welded shut.

Whether people believe in a Heaven were you wear golden slippers and streets of gold, have wings and play a harp (most of which isn't even in the bible) is not the issue either. Eternity and life after death is a tad difficult to fathom, so some people conceptualize it into something knowable for them.

As for miracles, I don't have to read about them in the bible. I see them, and not through hypnotists or magicians. I see miraculous cures
that defy any explanation, like the Mother of a friend of mine who went completely blind in one eye, saw every specialist in the area and was told her problem was inoperable and that she would never see out of that idea. She is a woman of great faith, and kept praying for a miracle. The day that she went in for a check-up and read the eye chart with her "blind" eye was not a story in a book, handed down orally for 60 years before someone wrote it down. It happened a year ago, and she came to hear my gospel quartet at our annual Anniversary concert, her sight miraculously restored.

The difference between faith and belief (and they are sometimes used interchangeably) is that you have faith in a power greater than yourself, and you trust that power with your life, while belief is something you think is true. There have to be clearer dictionary definitions than that, but I don't live my life according to Webster.
I have faith in God because in my mind and heart I know he is real. I don't just "believe" he's real. I feel His presence and see Him working in my life and others.

These discussions are wonderful, and I am really enjoying reading about everyone's faith. If this thread was titled Belief, then we could all argue about how many fishes Christ fed the multitudes, or whether he actually walked on water. Or whether there is such a thing as reincarnation, and what heaven looks like. Those arguments are not meaningful in the long run, because you can't get someone to have faith by arguing with them. And they aren't at the heart of the issue. Faith is one on one, or nothing. It's not something you can give to someone else. It profoundly changes the way that you live. Not all people who "get" religion get Faith. Faith is evidenced in a person by their fruits. "Belief" doesn't necessarily change you, but faith does. I believe the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but that doesn't change who I am or the way that I live.

Sorry for being so long-winded, Boab. I didn't start this thread as a forum for talking about my own faith. I really am interested in hearing about others... including you. Your posting was just so thought-provoking that I was moved to respond to it at length.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:07 AM

This conversation is going places I don't travel, but I would add a variation on the definitions offered above. The difference between faith and belief is that faith is the experience that results from a tightly held belief -- often one so closely held as to be invisible to the holder.

A belief held only in the mind, as an intellectual proposition, is not truly believed, but is only being thought.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:15 AM

this thread has given me something new to think about.

i have always held the view that i don't believe in anything i haven't experienced. i'm not saying that i haven't had spiritual moments or experiences, but i haven't been able to feel anything in between to hang on to.

faith was something i felt i could never feel.

but the idea of patience is one i can understand.. i like it, and hope i can remember to cultivate this quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:21 AM

Jerry,

you've opened a can of worms with that question. Everybody seems to have a different understanding of the word 'faith' and most of the conflicts here come from different understandings.

Let's have a look into Webster's dictionary what 'faith' can be:

(1) (a) Allegiance to duty or a person
    (b) Fidelity to one's promises

I can easily understand for instance Doug's post in that sense. Bobert, of course, uses another sense of 'faith' to make fun of Bush as Doug's 'God'.

(2) (a) Belief and trust in and loyality to God
    (b) Belief in the traditional doctines of a religion
    (c) Firm belief into something for which there is no proof.

Some here think immediately of their personal religion when describing their faith(s) and I can understand that. However, Jerry has meant the nondenominational ("Faith has no denomination.") sense of faith, so I guess he leans towards the broadest definition (2, c) here with the understanding that it also covers (a) and (b).

(3) Something that is believed with strong conviction, esp. a system of religious beliefs.

Maybe some here prefer this definition, I don't know.

I do not believe into anything supernatural, so only a a few of these definitions cover my case. Jim Dixon has given my spontaneous response. Don't use 'faith' whenever it is possible to use more trustworthy information. So 'faith' isn't a word in my daily life, even in situations with uncertainties and weak knowledge. 'Possible', 'trust', 'probable', 'confident' 'convinced', even 'believe' would be my words, but never 'faith'.

Are there things I never questions in my life? Hardly any, though in a continuum of convictions with more or less potential for being altered some basic convictions come close to being unquestionable or at least unquestioned:

My trust in my closest friends and family, my conviction that we only have this planet for a long time to come and therefore we should leave it in a state that makes it habitable for our grandchildren and theirs, my belief that all humans have a right to be treated as such,...

But I do not see these beliefs as quasi religious beliefs, I rather see them as the most sense making options. I guess in my daily life decisions I'm hardly any different from Christians living around me. However, I came from a very different basic conviction. I would never call this set of convictions my faith, for I think there is more than no proof for their validity, but I could understand if someone else would use this word.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:17 AM

Thanks for taking the time to look up the definitions of faith and belief in the dictionary, Wolfgang. Sometimes, the biggest hindrance to communication is words.

I love God, I love pizza. I believe I'm going to get my paycheck this Friday, I believe that my cancer will go into remission.

All we can hope is that, in trying to express ourselves as accurately and honestly as we can, that we can truly communicate with each other.
Not just talk.

I appreciate your thoughts, Wolfgang, whatever words you find most honest in labeling them. Despite all of our differences, there is much common ground to share and enjoy.

Jerry

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Tinker
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:59 AM

Jerry !!! My house is a mess, my garden is desperate, and I'm sitting here pulling books off the shelf, re-reading posts, shaking my head in agreement or stopping suddenly and saying no that's not part of my view at all... Thanks.

To begin, for me Faith is a verb. To live in faith is to accept a journey where I have to acknowledge that by definition the ultimate is unknowable to my puny little brain, but that there will be tiny moments of pure simplicity that baffle my abilty to explain. It's not founded in my beliefs, because it regularly chews them up and expects me to put them back together in a semblance of order. In fact it's a paradoxical thing this Faith, it tends to defy it's own definition. ( Perhaps because really it's only words we've wrapped around an idea we can't quite grasp ) In fact those I know who are the most grounded in Faith have the deepest sense of their own helplessness and inabilities, yet have an amazing abilty to reflect the Light. Faith for me is also remembering to fullly grasp and experience life even when I can't reduce it to an understandable and rational explanation.

I just reread this and I'm still not satisfied, but for this moment it'll have to do.

Kathy

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

Faith for me is also remembering to fullly grasp and experience life even when I can't reduce it to an understandable and rational explanation


I'd say that's more'n good enough, TInker! Spot on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:02 PM

I used to like their shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

Amos and Tinker: You both have added some wise observations to this conversation. And I am so delighted to have you both sharing in this conversation, as I value both of you as people. Funny thing about this Cafe.. you start to recognize people you feel a kinship and friendship with, and yet you don't really feel like you've gotten to know them. I don't think that it is a limitation of technology as much as it is the level on which we communicate. I've enjoyed you right from the beginning Amos, and obviously it wasn't because we shared the same faith. I don't know the faith of most people in here, any more than I know their political afilliation. And I don't feel the need to know. But, there is something about the person that shines through their postings that makes me feel like I'd really enjoy them as every day friends if we weren't separated by so many miles.

With all of the demands on our time and desires, we all tend to go cruising along, passing each other and waving a greeting, without ever really getting to know each other.

And tinker... a few years ago when all sorts of inexplicable changes were occurring in my life, I became very frustrated and confused. And impatient. Finally, a calm descended upon me and I felt that it wasn't necessary to make sense out of everything that happens in my life. Just the opposite. There are things that have happened, and are still happening in my life that don't make sense to me. But, I believe/have faith that when I am prepared to accept the changes, the reason and meaning will become apparent to me. I would say that they will be revealed to me when I have been fully prepared and canhandle them. Others might think that they've figured everything out on their own. All I know is that I am extremely limited in my ability to understand what is going on in my life and in the lives around me. My wisdom is very finite. And that's alright with me. It was a great relief when I finally realized that I don't have to understand everything, and what's more, there are things that are beyond human understanding. For me, that's where faith kicks in. We all use our own words.

But, isn't it wonderful to be able to talk openly about what is at the heart of our lives without judging each other?

I love it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:14 PM

And faith is an action verb.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

well! Miss one day, and see what happens!

Jerry began this thread with lil' ol' me as an example:
" Friends of mine like Bill D have a strong faith, and is an Atheist. I don't consider that an oxymoron."....

you know, I don't believe I have ever described myself in speech or in print as an "atheist"....not that it isn't true, but I just don't like associating my ramblings with a very 'loaded' word which gets me lumped in with hateful people like Madeline Murry O'Hair.

I am still reading and digesting the posts here, and will have some thoughts when I have a bit more time.

It is fascinating, because I JUST discovered in a box an old book that I have had for 35 years, "The Faith of a Heretic" by the philosopher Walter Kaufmann. It was one of the most influential books of my life. (I'll say a bit more about it later...)

*off to think*

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

Hi, Bill:

I think it's fascinating that the movie I think best captures the power of Christ's life is The Gospel According To St. Mathhew, which was directed by Paolo Paolini who was not only an Atheist, but a Communist. Admittedly, Christ came off with an attitude more like Marlon Brando than Mother Theresa, but there were no Hollywood trappings or prettiness to the story. I spent years trying to get a video of the movie before I finally got a copy (at a rather hefty price.) One of these nights I'll put it on and see how graphic and realistic the crucifixion is. From what I remember, it was just graphic enough to realize the suffering involved. That movie and Jesus of Montreal are two of my favorite, most challenging and unconventional movies.

And Bill.. I don't think of you as an Atheist. I think of you as Bill.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:01 PM

Thanks kindly, Jerry. I agree it's purdy wonderful when you find people you can lay your bricks on the table with, and expect to be tolerated as well as understood!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

It is a bit strange, Jerry, to speak directly about issues of faith & belief (both very important issues and closely related, though not exactly the same) with folks like you who are sincere believers in one religious tradition. I have met so many who want to either 'cure' me or berate me for my errors & intransigence that I am always a little nervous..*wry grin*. (Growing up in Kansas, it was easy to say the wrong thing in awkward circumstances!)

I started out in life as a Methodist...my grandmother was quite active in her church, and because we moved a LOT when I was young, making getting attached to a church hard to do, we started attending semi-regularly when I was in 3rd grade and I began attending weekday Bible school at a church close to us. I was in 3rd & 4th grades, and I questioned very little. The stories were fascinating, and grownups I respected seemed to take them seriously...so what was to question? I simple had 'faith' and thus, belief.
   But the seeds of doubt were planted, because it was just in those years that it dawned on me that Santa Claus was 'just a story'...but my brother was 3 1/2 years younger, and it was easier to keep up the pretense. So, our family continued with sporadic church attendence for years, though 'religion' was not a daily issue and I did not have a close association with a minister or others whose faith WAS a daily issue. In fact, table grace was seldom encountered except at large family gathering where grandparents were involved. Nevertheless, at those times, I simply bowed my head and took this 'blessing' as normal...though I kinda remember being slightly embarrassed that we didn't do it regularly. I still had 'faith' that it was what we 'should' be doing, as I thought that vague penalties were supposed to be visited on those who didn't follow the rituals....and I still remember lying in bed at night at about the age of 12-12-14 praying a bit and asking for things and trying to make sure I 'kept my foot in the door'. I remember beginning to learn about 'naughty words' and worrying what would happen to me if I used them...so I tried whispering a few when I was alone..*grin*...nothing happened, but I wasn't sure why not. I never particularly wanted TO use them, I was just curious..........and there is the crux of it all.....

   That curiosity became a major part of my life. I had gotten a set of World Book Encyclopedias when I was in 5th grade, and I LOVED reading about 'stuff'...and the school library...wow! And there was stuff in the books about other religions...Buddhism and exotic 'foreign' religions, as well as Catholicism and Judaism and such that **I** had had very little contact with. And it gradually dawned on me that many of those religions did not get along with each other well!

....well, you see where this is going...bright kid reads stuff and develops doubts and asks questions- (I probably could have made the above a lot shorter, but it helps ME to get perspective to type it for myself). I became a serious 'doubter', in that I questioned 'why' on lots of things...even getting into arguments with my parents when they told me that tornados usually came from one direction.."but..it's a WIND..and winds blow all directions!"..took awhile before I got clear evidence as to 'why'. By the time I was in high school, philosophy was in my head, and by the time I was a senior, I was determined to major in it, though it would take several years before I could explain exactly why!

I was married in my first year in college (at 19!) and religion & faith came up...she was a girl who had defied her parents and become a Catholic, but who was not 'practicing' by the time we met, and I still had the tendrils of 'faith & belief' hanging on me, as religion had never particularly offended me...so we decided to join.....the Unitarians!

...and there it was...a FORMAL situation of joining with others to discuss & share issues of faith and morals and ideas, but with no invoking of Jesus...or even of God.. in a formal way...but merely accepting that human beings often need some way to express their wonder at the mysteries and joys of life, and need to share pains and frustrations and support each other.

So...as formal training in Philosophy and practical training in 'life' proceeded, the issues had to be confronted directly on many occasions...this was *KANSAS*, and many of the students in class with me were dedicated, confirmed....and often belligerent, Christians! There I was..needing to retain my cherished 'open mindedness', but still avoid conflicts with those who believed differently. Then I read Kierkegaard's "Fear & Trembling" and other works and came nose-to-nose with the story of Abraham & Isaac and THE great test of 'faith' in the Bible, at the same time I was discovering Kaufmann's books such as "Faith of a Heretic" (mentioned in earlier post). It was interesting...I saw God's testing of Abraham in two contexts...one was the 'original', in that supposedly, God spoke directly to Abraham in ordering the sacrifice of Isaac, and Abraham had to pay attention, though obviously in great conflict.
But then I had to see it from MY viewpoint, in that no test of this sort (that is, DIRECTLY from God) had ever been asked of me, and so far as I knew, of no one else for thousands of years. I simply could not imagine the sort of 'faith' that would be required to deal with that situation.....so, I needed to find a way to even deal with the very idea of faith in my developing view of things! (took me long enough to get to the point, hmmm? *grin*)
   Gradually, it became clear to me that I used 'faith' mostly to refer to what others were feeling, except for situations where I felt I had clear information. Do I 'know' the sun is going to rise tomorrow? Strictly, no...but I have faith that it will, as it has a perfect record of doing so. Do I 'know' that my car will start in the morning...nope, sometimes it doesn't, but I have 'faith' that it will...I believe that it will, as it has a very good record of doing so. Faith has become, for me, very much a matter of 'an informed wager'...a calculated risk, instead of the 'trust/faith/belief' in an abstract concept about souls, eternity and a creator that others profess.

   Others have used non-religious 'faith' to refer to much more poetic matters..faith in the spirit of Mankind, in one's own power to reason and be honorable, and those are good thoughts and tempting... but it seems to me that they are often equivocations on the meaning of the word.

In what may appear a bit of a circular analysis, I have 'faith' that the beliefs of others are the result of very different life experiences than I describe about myself above, and that others arrive at ways of dealing with the mysteries of life & the universe through paths that I have never walked and, literally, could not walk. Therefore, the 'faith' that seems strange to me when I look at it in others, from my external viewpoint, is also the most natural expression of their feelings for those involved...so it seldom does any good for me to debate the basis of it with them.

In all the threads in Mudcat in which I have offered opinions on these matters, I have tried to keep this distinction in mind and try to respect the path others have followed, while suggesting that since it IS such a complex issue, and that the very words faith & belief are used because no one can prove much one way or another, we need to quietly allow and tolerate, and even celebrate, when possible, differences, while staying aware that ultimate 'truth' could favor NONE of us. This is not easy for many to deal with...their emotional needs require an answer..not just directions and more questions!

I have FAITH that most of the good people I know will view my attempts to sort it all out with tolerance and forbearance...and JUST enough humor to keep us all smiling.....

now...I need to go back and re-edit all that for 3 days, figgering out better ways to say it all...but I ain't gonna....

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 04:37 PM

Faith means lots of things to me. And none are easy to explain.

I have faith in people--to do what's right and occasionally what's wrong. I have faith in my students to be honest with me, and occasionally not. I have faith in God, and occasionally I lose that faith. I have faith in love--that it will be true and sometimes not.
I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow, and I have faith that the day will come when I won't see it. I have faith that the men and women I enter fires with will look out for me and me for them. I have faith that I will do my best to be a good person, and I have faith that I will not always achieve that goal. I have faith that some people will like what I wrote, and I have faith that some won't. Faith is maybe what we know to be true tinged with lots of hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 05:57 PM

Thanks for that long background, Bill: I enjoyed reading it. I grew up in Wisconsin, not far from you. My parents didn't go to church much... I can barely remember them going. That wasn't because of a lack of desire on my Mother's part, but my Father didn't start going until I was starting to go to college. So, I just kinda grew up... my two closest friends in High School were Catholic, but most of my friends didn't go to church, and religion wasn't something I ever talked about. I went to Sunday school during the summer a couple times that I vaguely remember, but mostly I was just busy being a kid.
Maybe that was what was best for me. When I think of the people I've known who no longer believe in God, almost every one of them was raised in a strict home where church going was mandatory. Most of the people I know who were raised Catholic are Atheists now... Joe Offer and padre are Catters who have kept and strengthened their faith in the Catholic church in here. I think that I came about my faith, and the acceptance of people who were different from me from my Mother. She was never judgmental and just loved people for who they were. That doesn't mean that her faith isn't important to her, but she never tried to "convert" anyone, including people in her own family. So, you won't catch me trying to convert you Bill, or berate you for your beliefs. I'm just trying to live the best that I can within my own limitations. It's hard enough to know what I should be doing. I sure don't want to try to tell other people what to do. It's not that I think faith isn't important. I just think that it's personal.

And good for you, Bill to feel comfortable enough to share your thoughts. Ain't any one in here 'cept us folks.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

I just sat across the dinner table from a good friend as we discussed this very topic -- faith.

He a Buddhist and I a Christian, yet we came to similar conclusions regarding faith in the modern, western world.

First, we both saw faith being sold at a discount. What a singular time to live in when so many believe that they don't live by faith -- so strong is the misunderstanding of, yet pervasive influence of science.

It's as though faith is the safety net of last resort. We arrogantly believe it unnecessary......and even when accepted as a part of our lives, tend to catagorize the types of faith into those we find tenable, and those that are the domain of the wacko (though we will graciously allow as how some of the wackos are nice enough. Maybe even "quaint").

We even think that we can divide our society into those who have faith and those that do not -- so that, if your faith is what informs your political POV, it is illegitimate (and the converse arrogance that "I" have a right to express myself politicially because {B}MY{/B} veiw is "rational" ......... {read: rational only}).

That means that the default setting for public conscience is set by those who beleive themselves faithless.

And then "they" throw the faithful a bone -- that is, they "don't mind us" as long as we understand that this silly little affectation of faith upon which we insist is OK as long as we *wink, wink* understand that it really isn't "real".

Seems to me that there's a real big misunderstanding right now in the minds of modern man -- that "empirical" and "real" are synonymous. They aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM

John Hardly...I got a little confused at the use of 'we' in your post. You began with it referring to you & your friend, then it seemed to change into a reference to 'they', as in "...We arrogantly believe it unnecessary... we will graciously allow ..." and later in "We even think that we can divide our society..."

You seem to be objecting to the efforts of some to trivialize faith as being somehow "unscientific"...which, in fact, a few do. Of course, it IS unscientific, though hardly trivial. It is not supposed to be scientific...it comes from a different place, and is processed differently. One's defense or explanation OF their faith can be badly expressed or downright illogical--but that doesn't affect the ultimate 'truth' of it.
....and, since belief AND non-belief are both a form of faith, NEITHER should be considered 'true' or 'not true' based on the glibness of the argument!

Indeed 'empirical' and 'real' are words which can have very different meanings to people, and in any discussion where they are used, it should be made clear how they are being understood, lest the discussion be doomed from the beginning.

It is unfortunately the case that many on both sides of the faith/belief issue proceed without a clear understanding within thenselves just what they actually believe 'truth' to be, or how they got there....(as you can see above, I have struggled long to even express my personal position)

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, Bill,

A writer I ain't. But that's the idea of what I was gettin' at. (now see, if I was a writer I'd have phrased that, "that's the idea at which I was gettin').

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:07 PM

I'm going to change my name to They. Jerry They. Or maybe Jerry People. "They", "People" and other group names don't do much to advance understanding. My ex-wife used to love to say "They" think you are a real idiot, or some other complimentary accolade, and I'd always counter with, "Who is this "They?" I'd like to meet him some time." Or my favorite response was "According to a recent nationwide poll... and then let my voice trail off." In arguments, it's always tempting to resort to "They" "People" or "Everyone" to get your point across. Trouble is, I can never figure out who "They," "people" or "everyone" is, and how the person knows what they all think.

I'd have to say that I rarely find anyone being condescending to me because I believe in God. First of all, I don't talk about religion a lot. Most people aren't comfortable talking about religion, because it can be such a divisive topic. Most people I know.

Are they the "They" everyone talks about? Maybe I do know them, and don't even know it :-)

Jerry They

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:11 PM

It isn't that they don't have faith, John. They are just particpants in an unacknowledged cult, the Believers in the Physical Universe,   the most successul religous movement to come down the pike ever, bar none. Some folks don't recognize it as a faith, but it surely is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:20 PM

Jerry:

There is no They there, buddy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

So, because I used the word "they", you don't understand the point of my post, Jerry?

The "they" to which I referred, and Bill and Amos seemed to "get", is those rationalists who fail to see that they too live by faith, and demand superiority because, as Amos pointed out, they "the most successul religous movement to come down the pike ever, bar none".

Sorry you didn't get my point. Sorry I posted. You can have your thread back.