BS: A matter of sensitivity?

Subject: A matter of sensitivity?
From: paddymac
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:11 PM

I'm no great fan of political correctness, but there are times when something akin to courteous sensitivity can give pause for reflection.

There are a number of folks in our local "Celtic" community who genuinely promote and encourage something between mutual respect and a "pan-celtic" view. We have hit a bump in the road that seems well along the way to resolution, but I'm curious and interested in how other 'catters might view the situation.

The situation arose when a person who is a member of several groups became offended at what they termed "anti-Irish, anti-Catholic and anti-Campbell" jokes told at a recent Hogmanay. It just happened that the offended person fit all three of those categories.

None of us believe that anyone intended to give offense, but the fact remains that they did. The question presented, now that initial hurt and anger have subsided, seems to be what and how can we learn from the incident. It's good that, for the moment, anyway, most of us seem to be talking among ourselves, and with each other, about the question of sensitivity.

There seems to be a fairly common view that a person can tell jokes about a group of which they are a member, but not about other groups. In its own way, I think that view is divisive rather than collegial or helpful, although I do recognize that it provides a degree of "safety" by avoiding topics or material that some might find offensive.

I believe that every balanced person should have the ability to laugh at themselves, in both an individual and collective sense, but I don't see that as a license for others to be insulting or degrading.

Thus, the question I'd like to explore is: "How, if at all, can we measure or define the boundaries between legitimate humor and insult or degradation?" I don't think that there is a bright-line distinction, but I do believe that most people have some innate sense of what's "permissible" or not. What are some of those flags that we use to give warning of going "too far?"

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM

If the victim is included in the conversation, then it should be OK.; your victim is just being too touchy.

But - You can't tell a joke that is 'about' a victim, who is within hearing, but not part of the conversation. That is being plain rude.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM

There are words that are, in present society, perjorative and they should be avoided. There is no reason to deliberately denigrate any group UNLESS you are a well-known part of that group and even then it's a risky business.
One of the greatest comics of our time, Red Skelton, never used profanity and if he did take a shot at a group (the folks out here in California...) the dig was very gentle.
I think that anyone who performs has to realize that the most innocent of comments may be offensive to someone. I try never to pick on a group but to go after a specific person. I can usually spot the guy who will go along. I'll introduce a song and then point to someone and say,"Don't worry sir. She'll explain it to you." It never fails to get a good laugh.
But you have to be careful. Sometimes a song that you do regularly will hit someone wrong.
I was singing regularly in a bar called Grogans Saloon in Salt Lake City in 1963 and one of my staples was Away With Rum (The song of the Salvation Army). I was half-way through the second verse one night when this drunk came up out of the audience with a chair shouting that the "Schalvashion Army" had helped him a lot and he wasn't going to let anyone make fun of it.
Big Sandy, the bartender/bouncer got to him before he got to me.
Other than what I've said, I can't think of anything else. I believe it's just a skill you have to develop over time.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:56 PM

The key phrase to me, is: "folks willing to laugh at themselves". These days fewer and fewer people seem to be able to laugh period. They have their reasons, so I guess your choice is to say "sorry 'bout that", and carry on, or make an issue out of it, and watch the dynamics of your group change forever.

Troll. I was watching something on the boob tube a few years ago about "humour", and Red Skelton's name came up as a comic who could be funny without being offensive. Immediately it was pointed out by one of the participants that Red's "clown, hobo and hillbilly" characters were VERY offensive to homeless and rural people! 'Course the rest of the program was spent debating that statement. I guess EVERYTHING is offensive if the wrong person hears it.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 03:20 PM

The main thing is intent. The intent of the person telling it - and the understanding of the way the people listening are going to take it.

What I mean is, if you tell a joke to a racist, and you know that he'd enjoying it as a racist, that's a racist joke even if that isn't how you you meant it it in the first place. And if you tell another like that to follow up, and you know you'll get a laugh, and that's why you are telling it, you are being racist.

You just can't do it by rules and numbers and checklists of what'd offensive and what's not. Otherwise you end up in ridiculous situations. If someone is setting out to insult another person because of their colour or their religion or gender or whatever, they can do it saying the most seemingly harmless things.

So you can end up with suggestions that you shouldn't say "white" coffee, because it is quite possible to say that in a way which is insulting. Which is perfectly true. But it's the intent, not the words that is the problem."Would you like a banana?" can be a insult, but trying to make people call them "plantains" wouldn't do anybody any good.

And the anti-Irish anti-Catholic jokes can be used in an intentionally insulting sectarian way. Maybe your friend was wrong to take it as meant that way. Maybe he wasn't. There's a lot of sectarianism around. (And even the Campbell jokes could be used intentionally as a provocation, a bit of coat trailing, or be taken as meant that way.)

The trouble with going by intent is that there's a subjective element, and you can be mistaken on both sides. But there's no substitute for it.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 03:28 PM

taken in isolation I am sure your jokes were neither insensitive or inflammatory or intended to cause distress. But if the black, jewish, catholic, asian fat bald guy is continually confronted by these remarks and expected to laugh at themselves every single day, then I guess you can't blame them for losing their sense of humour -and surely that's the problem if your expected to 'take the joke, or the remark, time after time or day after day for what you are or what you look like it becomes at the best tiresome at the very worst degrading. The fact is that it isn't your joke that has caused offence, its the culmination of a lifetime of jokes -and that ain't funny

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 05:56 PM

We have all experienced the joke at our expense feeling. Even when amongst good and reliable friends sometimes a comment is just a litttle too funny and a little too accurate and we all know the brittle sound of our own laughter.

That being said we should all know and have confidence that it was just a joke and be able to shoulder the humour.

What must it be like for the few who get this all the time from strangers , commentators and (so called)comedians.

Looking back over the years I think I have been guilty (in a little way) of the same offence. As Roger Daltry said "I know better now........"

Spot's concience...

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 06:00 PM

Stick to puns

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: NightWing
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 06:25 PM

Why not, Pinetop? Puns stick WHEREVER they hit. *G*

One group I participate in regularly is the Hash House Harriers. For anyone who's not familiar with us, "Hashing" is a worldwide running and drinking club. We call ourselves "the drinking club with a running problem". *L*

Unsurprisingly, in a group this wide-ranging, there are lots of people with lots of different opinions about different topics: politics and religion are, without a doubt, the two touchiest subjects. In my local Hash, a very similar disagreement arose recently, and it was handled with the irreverence and humor that we tend to apply to everything.

Description of the incident and what lead up to it: One Hasher (who I'll call CC) is male and pretty strictly a hard-right conservative; he's also a fairly new Hasher, just under a year. Over a period of several months, CC had been making snide political remarks on our local e-mailing list. The other Hasher (who I'll call SL) is female and rather middle-left liberal. She had taken the first few in good humor, but as CC's remarks continued, she got fairly tired of them. (Many of the rest of us did, too. We just didn't do anything about it.) After one such snide comment (no worse nor better than any others), she retaliated. She went into the archives of the list and culled all the remarks he had made. She listed them in one message and responded to each ... from HIS point-of-view ... and turning the response slyly personal. One or two might've been actually hurtful, but SL's response to something over 100 such remarks turned into such overkill that no one could've possibly taken it so. I happened to be with CC when he read the e-mail (I had seen it an hour or so earlier). After reading the first couple he turned to me with a rather hangdog look and said something like "I didn't mean anything by it, just having a little fun." But by page 5 of about 8, he was ROTFL.

Hashers *tend* to avoid these sorts of topics. Religious and political discussions are ONLY tolerated when both parties to the discussion understand that nothing will be taken personally ... and nothing will be MEANT personally. Everyone understands that you get into such a discussion at your own risk. So most people simply avoid the topics.

Recently one of us announced that he was leaving the area: he's moving to the Big Apple to work for a Nader Raider-sort of radical left television company. Even the conservatives congratulated him: everyone proud that one of our buds would have the courage to strike out for what he believed in (even if it wasn't something THEY agreed with).

This kind of *tradition* of understanding our differences takes a long time to develop. Hashing has been around for about 60 years. But it will ... IF everyone agrees to try to work things out calmly, without allowing personalities to intrude, and always with a sense of humor foremost.

Hmm, I've rambled a bit here. Did I actually make sense? Probably not. (Hashers say that "if you've got half a mind to try the Hash, that's all it takes." *L* I qualify handily.)

BB (and ON-ON),
NightWing

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM

I am known for my sometimes outrageous humor in the most unexpected situations. Our office is close quarters and it helps. We had an accountant working for us - new to the company - who came to work impeccably dressed in vested suits. One day on casual Friday he walked in in jeans and an Irish knit sweater. The jeans were carefully pressed with a knifelike crease. The sweater screamed GQ. I looked at him and commented jokingly "Gee you're dressed like a bum today." Everyone including him laughed. Even in jeans he looked like a fashion statement. That day he filed a harassment complaint against me for belittling his clothing. He didn't get that it was a compliment. I refused to apologize and never said a word other than business to him ever again. Then he complained that I was ignoring him. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:05 PM

Sinsull, He may have been a plonker...but (and here's the rub) he was a hurt plonker. I would have done the same in your position but for him to file a complaint (I would hope) he really felt hurt.

Like you my last comment is Go Figure...I couldn't work it out.

Spot

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Les B
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:11 PM

I lost my secret decoder ring - what does ROTFL in the middle of Night Wing's interesting post mean ?

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:14 PM

Rolled On The Floor Laughing...seems to fit.!

Spot

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:15 PM

Rolling on the floor laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 08:18 PM

let's face it..some people are not wired for a sense of humor...their perception of levels of meaning in comments runs about like a 2 years olds. You CANNOT use irony and such with them...and when they get offended, all you can do is tell them quietly and forcefully

**IT was supposed to be a JOKE!**

....then you limit your remarks to 'hello' unless there is a clear topic, or you are asked a direct question, then you count 3 before answering.....

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 08:42 PM

Bill D A masterly summary of how to deal with this situation. I spent years attempting to delicately defuse such scenarios - The holes just got bigger! GB

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 09:01 PM

Does the panel think that there is a very different perception of humour , irony , sarcasm and what not between the Europeans and the America's?. I don't mean a failure to appreciate the obviously funny but a subtle difference in interpretations of spoken (written) commentry.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 10:32 PM

yeah...there are 'differences' in humor in different cultures...just read cartoon booklets. or watch imported TV programs...it is not safe to over-simplify it, but the very fact that many Americans love certain English comedies says something.. "Monty Python" is a very English creation, though VERY popular in some circles...

Now 'some' British/English humour is a bit strange for American tastes.."Are You Being Served" just has characters which do not track for many folks

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 02:13 AM

Humour, especially about religion, politics etc can be quite funny, but can also be perceived as a "Vindictive Barb".
The problem with knowing when to draw the line is that there may be 2 lines. The speaker may have a line that he/she won't cross and the listener may have a line that he/she won't find humourous. All is well providing the lines are at the same level. Sometimes they're not and somebody's feeling will get hurt. Usually the hurt will fade away and be forgotten unless the barbs are repetitive.Then it can get ugly.
I love to laugh at and tell Irish jokes, but only with my irish friends, we all understand each other and the intent is known.
I can laugh at non Irish people telling Irish jokes as well but can get sullen if that line is crossed. it's very high by the way, so I don't often take offense.
I did get upset one night with one particular guy who has the mistaken idea that he is funny, He would love to be funny but he is not, anyway one night in a small folk club he introduced me by saying " this next act comes from Belfast, where they use rubber bullets, but next year they are going to use real ones". He was not the only one who laughed, there was quite a few hearty guffaws throughout the audience. I quietly explained to them what a rubbber bullet looked like, and to emphasise the type of damage that they can do I also told them a true story about a good friend of mine who had recently been hit in the head with one and died, and another family friend had been hit with one and lost both her eyes, then I calmly picked up my banjo and went home. believe me the laughter stopped, so there is a definite threshold than should not be crossed. If you are unsure of how far you can go then don't go , There are lots of topics that can be humourous without touching on politics, religion, colour, height, weight or nationality. When I came to Canada my workmates were in stitches about a pair of Canadian comics who had a weekly TV show, I watched the show every week looking for the humour and never once heard anything funny (to me), by the same token I loaned a canadian friend a record of an Irish comedian who I thought was hilarious, but he did not see anything funny either, so I suppose some humour s local and not transportable., while other humour is universal.
Intent is tangible, saying I didn't really mean that after the fact is sometimes hard to swallow, especially when it's the 3rd or 4th time you have had to say it to the same person(s). I relate Humour ito potatoes, some like them boiled, some like them french fried, others like them baked or roasted, but nobody likes them overdone. ?.
But it is impotnt to be able to laugh at ourselves. Just keep it within bounds.

slan agus oiche maith anois.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 02:30 AM

Just some observations:

Lenny Bruce got famous by being insulting.
Red Skelton and Bob Hope never insulted anyone.
Humor is in the mind of the reciever.
Bigots can't laugh.
White people should never say "nigger".
Black people should never say "honky".
Christians should never say "kike".
English should never say "micks"
etc.

Truth can be humorous.
Truth is humorous because it is true.
Truth can be painful.
Truth can be healing.
Truth is sort of like a gun--never point it at something you don't intend to kill..........

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: GUEST,JB the folkie sailor
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 03:53 AM

A motto for life:-

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me"

Insults? Grow a skin, ignore your navel and forget 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:02 AM

I can see how you can be Irish and Catholic, and I can see how you can be Irish and Campbellite, but I'll be danged if I can see how you can be Catholic and Campbellite, all at once.

Liland
Baptist, not Campbellite

(We just went through a thread on the pejorative implications of the word "Campbellite" over on BaptistLife.com...

This points up one end of the problem: if you don't even know what a Campbell or a Campbellite is, how can you tell if it's insulting to call somebody one?

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:10 AM

When I was a kid (and yes, I know there are folks of all ages who think "kid" is insulting) racial slurs in general were taboo; we even got a babysitter we didn't like fired by telling our parents she had said "Last one in bed is a nigger baby!" "To jew somebody out of something" would have been a definite no-no. However ... "To gyp somebody" was perfectly normal. I was an adult before I realized that that was a racist slur against gypsies. Or Romanies, or Roum, or whatever they choose to be called this time. And my dad never said a mean word about Native Americans, but when he told us scary bedtime stories about "Volluffs and Henyuns" we knew perfectly well that "Henyun" was storytalk for "Indian". Etc.

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 06:39 AM

Are you being served, and others from the same stable, leave a lot of Brits cold tooo.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: John P
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 09:15 AM

For me, there are two types of jokes that involve making assumptions about a nationality or a gender or a religion or whatever. Some of them are actual funny jokes, with a witty play on words, or a real humorous situation. And some are just an excuse to say something nasty, or outrageous, or to refer to sex in polite company. Obviously, everyone has a different idea about what is funny, but I would submit that jokes that have nothing funny about them except the insult itself should be avoided.

I have a friend who tells ethnic jokes. When it is time to say "Irishman" or "Indian" or "Priest and Rabbi" or whatever, he just says, "ethnic minority of your choice" and goes on with the joke. I use this as a test of whether or not a joke is really funny -- does it remain funny if you change or leave out the object of the stereotype? Is there anything funny other than a chance to mention the stereotype?

John

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: GUEST,Greyeyes
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 09:18 AM

What's three foot high, stands at the foot of the bed, and takes the piss out of you?

A dialysis machine.

After 5 1/2 years on dialysis I feel entitled to tell that joke, but I think I would consider it tasteless in the extreme for anyone else to tell it in my presence. On occasions very close friends have told it to others in front of me, and the reaction, if the others know about my circumstances, can be fascinating. They generally look at my face and if my reaction seems favourable they laugh nervously. If I'm feeling particularly evil I feign indignation and remonstrate with the teller. Everyone gets very uncomfortable until we let them know we're winding them up.

I suppose the moral is some jokes are better left untold unless you know everyone extremely well.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:03 PM

The fact is, almost all jokes are 'about' or 'at the expense of' some identifiable person or group. It may generalize about women or the clergy or politicians, ....or musicians..or it may go to old women, or southern politicians, or banjo players. And it may be so specific as to refer to individual old women, southern politicians, or banjo players....but at some point, you WILL find a level at which it offends someone..NO MATTER WHAT YOUR INTENTION!

You just can't be sure unless you know your audience very well. Some women can laugh at 'some' PMS jokes, some clergy can laugh at 'some' clergy jokes, and some members of some ethnic groups can laugh at 'some' jokes about their own group...but it is all VERY content, locale, and situation dependent.

Why are stingy Scotsman jokes 'safer' than stingy Jewish merchant jokes? What makes jokes about Alzheimers (you meet new friends every day")cute at one moment and not the next? What makes 'Bobbit' jokes popular, even though they are always about a scary situation? What is 'funny' about misunderstandings due to deafness?

There are long answers to all of those questions, (many theses already written), but we KNOW that it can help to laugh so we don't cry. It takes work to make humor "work", instead of offend, and you could probably choose your closest friends on the basis of what you all laugh at. The only thing that is sure is that we will never all agree, and the "PC" arguments will go on forever.....

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:24 PM

No one has mentioned one helpful strategy, which is to begin (or stay) with laughing at your own ethnic group. It seems to me that there is more than enough material in one's own failings and foibles without wandering into someone else's terrain. I suppose if you must wander into someone else's terrain, it behooves you to try and set it up either as (a) aren't human beings generally nuts? and (b) If you think those X are weird, you should come to my house where we are twice as weird. I have heard one or two black comedians talk about white people who were incredibly funny, but the best ones always compared them to the equally weird, if not weirder, world of their own group.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:37 PM

I have a slight stammer (stutter) when I speak (very slight).I have had it since childhood. I have used it to create humourous situations and occasionally tell stammer jokes , but still feel awkward (not offended) when other people tell them in my company.

My close friends tell me this just makes me a hypocrite with a stammer....

Another thought occured to me...do lawyers feel offended at jokes about them?...like the one who fell into a logoon full of sharks and swam out unscathed...when asked how he managed this feat he just said..professional courtesy.... Is this offensive to their profession?

Spot

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 02:31 PM

We live in a family where humor is a staple, and once had a young man of fairly fragile ego, who had grown up in a family without a sense of humor), stay with us for varying lengths of time. The persiflage at the dinner table is thick and fast, and it was a wonder that this kid had any hair left, for the jokes flying thick and fast just over his head. After a few months he would say, "that was a joke, right?" And a couple of months ago he began making humorous comments himself! Humor can be taught!

That said, we had a foreign student for a few weeks last summer, who made some VERY disparaging comments about Wavestar and the condition of her room. When I told him that they'd been somewhat hurtful, he allowed as how in Norway everyone talked that way to their friends. But both he and the kid we've ended up with told how they, like all of our family, were cruelly teased for being "smart" in grade school. So I guess some stuff is more universal than other. BTW, the Austrian boy we ended up with, and I, tease each other unmercifully, knowing full well that we love each other. (Sorry about the grammar, but she died last year and I haven't been able to put together a sentence since.)

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 03:25 PM

"the black, jewish, catholic, asian fat bald guy" - there probably actually are a few people who'd fall into that category.

The fact is, almost all jokes are 'about' or 'at the expense of' some identifiable person or group.

Here's one that isn't - Two lions are walking along a main street in the middle of a big city. And one lion turns to the other and says "It's quiet here isn''t it!"

I don't tell that to make any point, but it's been cracking me up since I came across it. Many people won't even see it as funny. That's how humour works. Or humor, for that matter.

And Liland - maybe you're being wryly humorous, or maybe you really aren't aware that remarks about Campbells, in that context, aren't about theological differences, they are about antagonisms between Scottish clans. And there's no reason a Campbell can't be a Catholic. Or even a black, Jewish, Catholic, Asian fat bald guy...(to pick up on what Ickle Dorritt posted)

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:01 PM

From Spot the Dog:

Another thought occured to me...do lawyers feel offended at jokes about them?...like the one who fell into a logoon full of sharks and swam out unscathed...when asked how he managed this feat he just said..professional courtesy.... Is this offensive to their profession?

Well, having been one for 30+ years, I would say, there are a good number of lawyers who fit the sterotype. But if you tell jokes that depict all lawyers as heartless, greedy, win-at-all-costs, take-your-last-penny-for-fees types, it's as offensive to those who don't - and if I do, and am not richer than I am, that means I'm dreadfully incompetent - as any other joke based on a negative stereotype of a group.

If I looked hard, I could certainly find some lazy, stupid, criminal blacks; some drunken, wife-beating Irishmen; miserly, conniving Jews; or some Australians who were "violently alcoholic roughnecks whose idea of a good time is throwing up on your car" (National Lampoon, mid-1970s). If the fact that some of all of the above exist doesn't justify digs that assume all of the group fits the stereotype, why should it with lawyers?

Or is it the idea that "they have no feelings anyway?" That's been applied to others in the past. Maybe it's just our turn.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM

Thanks Midchuck..My question was not Idle...I have used that joke and not thought about offending any Lawyers present. My problem now lies with finding an area of humour that does not somehow contain the capacity for injury.

The lion joke refered to earlier in this thread is a sample but I bet there aren't many around like that. Take the example of the two wildlife photographers confronted with a fully grown and angry lion. One immediately opens his knapsack and starts to put on a pair of nike trainers. The other says "no way will you outrun that lion" the first says.."I only have to outrun you!"....not offensive?

Bet it could be to a paraplegic....where do we make our line in the sand?

Spot (who walks round and round in his basket flops down philosophically and washes his privates) the dog

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:52 PM

The jokes that are the funniest hit closest to home. If they hit any closer, they hurt; if they hit any farther, they aren't funny. It's a fine line, and unfortunately humor IS in the mind of the receiver, so you probably will end up offending the more easily-offended people, who have a larger "bull's eye" - but you can learn to avoid them. It's telling the SECOND joke that offends the same person that's offensive... the first can often be dismissed as If they knew better. The trick is to learn to dismiss it when no offense was intended, even if some was taken.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Sourdough
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:09 PM

It strikes me that there is an element of trust in humor. You certainly feel a lot more comfortable with humor at your expense if you have trust in the basic feelings of the speaker.

Imagine a "roast" given by the people at your workplace with you as the guest of honor. Your friends start picking on your foibles, i.e. you dress flashy or you dress really casual; you throw your money around or you are a tightwad; you keep your car looking shiny and clean all year round or you drive a beat up old thing; as long as these are people you like and trust, sure you may squirm a bit but all in all you will feel pretty good about the humor. The next person who gets up to speak in the guy you think may be after your job. You suspect he is trying to take credit for some of your work and to pass blame for some of his failures onto you. He makes some jokes at your expense, maybe about your desk, it is very neat or it is very cluttered, and people laugh. All of a sudden, the feeling you have changes from a mixture of fun and maybe mild embarrassment to one of anger. Why? I suspect it is because you don't trust his motives. It feels wrong that he should hold you up for ridicule.

I think a common mistake that it is very easy to make is to assume a stronger sense of community identity and group bonding than truly exists. The illusion of trust can evaporate quickly when someone hits on a sensitive topic and there is not enough trust to support the strain.

Sourdough (who trusts you will not throw bricks - or even epithets)

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Gypsy
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 06:49 PM

There are so many things of humour in the world that are not hurtful...why not use them. Maybe I am thinskinned, but there are days that if I hear ONE more dumb blonde joke, I will scream. Being the constant butt of inference that you are dumb/greedy/lazy, gets old, very fast. The first 50 times, I can laugh. The subsequent times, I grit my teeth. Chances are, there are jokes that offend every one of us here. I just find it needless to have humour at someone elses expense.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Matt_R
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 09:06 PM

Ha, talk about taking offense! Just try posting Oasis song lyrics here with no explanation. People understand it any which way--from a personal insult to a suicide note. Then they want you to apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 07:14 PM

try posting ANYTHING with a 'message' with no explanation or source noted...people need to have some idea....

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM

re Matt. Even if people recognises where a quote comes from, when it is posted without a message implies that the person posting has probably borrowed the words to express how they are feeling.

If someone stuck Hamlet's "To be or not to be" soliloquy here, without any explanatory gloss, the fact that a lot of people will recognise where it comes from won't stop them wondering whether the poster is planning to top themselves, especially if they've been sounding a bit angsty recently.

That's how it should be. It's more important to help a friend, including a virtual-friend, rather than to worry about losing face.

It'd only be if people read it in that sense, and then came back seriously encouraging the one who posted to carry on and do the deed, that there'd something to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 11:53 PM

Matt_R, it has always been considered 'proper' to credit the author when one quotes a line. Not doing so is flirting with plagiarism, imo, especially when you don't come back in a timely manner and clarify it.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 02:21 AM

Ickle Dorrit Said <<taken in isolation I am sure your jokes were neither insensitive or inflammatory or intended to cause distress. But if the black, jewish, catholic, asian fat bald guy is continually confronted by these remarks and expected to laugh at themselves every single day, then I guess you can't blame them for losing their sense of humour......>>
Gypsy Said <<Maybe I am thinskinned, but there are days that if I hear ONE more dumb blonde joke, I will scream. Being the constant butt of inference that you are dumb/greedy/lazy, gets old, very fast. The first 50 times, I can laugh. The subsequent times, I grit my teeth>>
I think they have both hit on ONE of the factors that affects our perception of what's funny. A few years ago, I saw a comedian who told some Irish, Scots, Jewish, Welsh, and Sexist Jokes, among others which I didn't identify as about any particular group. I didn't feel offended, nor did a Scotsman who was in our group.
A few weeks later, I saw a comedian who told nothing but Irish Jokes for the first ten minutes of his act. I got up & left.
Somehow, I felt that the first one was just poking fun, while I felt the second had an agenda.
Of course, I am just speaking personally. Others might have been offended by both. But for me, too many jokes about any one group tend to give the impression that the teller means more than fun.

---

CrazyEddie, if you want to use the type of quoting you tried in this post, you need to enter &lt; to get < and &gt; to get > JoeClone

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 06:19 AM

It depends on the audience. If you're telling a joke to friends you know their humour and their backgrounds and what will and won't hurt them. If there's a possiblity that someone might be hurt (and there's a big difference between offending and hurting), why tell it? It's going to upset someone and make you look stupid and offensive.
At home in N. Ireland, amongst my friends who are a group from many different backgrounds, there's slagging and teasing about religion and upbringing, all based on perceived stereotypes which we KNOW are completely false. Anyone listening in who didn't know us would think we were being sectarian and offensive - but that's part of the group's collective humour. To the participants, it's not hurtful. Each gives as good as they get. If we were unsure how such teasing would be taken, we'd stop. I've known these people for years and we all know each other's humour. It's when we step outside that group that none of us would ever dream of saying such things.
It's like Ma jokes. (I presume that's a universal thing - where one person slags off the other's mother in more and more outlandish ways. It can be used as an insult, yes, but we go over the top and make incredibly stupid remarks.) Ma jokes are a staple part of N. Irish humour amongst the people I know and work with. Entire days can be devoted to adding "Aye, yer ma!" on to the end of every sentence. And we'll happily particpate in such trivial insults for hours on end, despite the fact that we know and respect and like the other person's mother... But would I say such a thing to a stranger? Not a chance!

and Are You Being Served is NOT funny... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 06:24 AM

Erk - I meant to add that while joking among friends about stereotypes is one thing, jokes involving violence would be completely out of order. No matter who's telling them. It IS a question of sesitivity - and to be sensitive you need to know your audience.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 08:36 AM

When I was a kid -- we're talking about forty-ish years ago -- I came across a joke that went like this:

an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman get chatting at a bar. The Irishan and the Scot are big strapping lads of around 250lb, 6'6", muscles in their spit; while the Englshman is a typical weedy runt of 120lb, 5'4" (that's me, OK? Apart from the 120lb!). They get around to swapping jokes: the Irishman tells one that has the others splitting their sides, the Scot tells one that has them rolling on the floor.
Then it's the Englishman's turn:
"Well, there was an Englishman, an ... er, another Englishman, er, ... and ... er, well, another Englishman ..!"

I thought it was hilarious, but I've never raised a laugh with it since. There's nowt so queer as folk (can I say that?!)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 11:32 AM

McG of H and I have been having a similar discussion on another thread and he suggested that we brought it here. Thanks Kevin - advice heeded!

One of my points on the other thread was, being a Mancunian, I do not take any particular offence at us 'mancs' being labled as car-thieves, football hooligans etc in jest. (Manchester Olympic Event - 100 metres carrying a car radio...) but to continue other well made points it must be perceived by the listener as being in jest. If I was to think that a statement about Manchester people was being made maliciously I would be one of the first to kick and scream.

The overall thread title says it here SENSITIVITY. It is the sensitiviy of the listener that is the question. We must always be aware that some people may be more sensitive than us.

How then do we draw the line? I don't know - all I can say is if you are unsure if it will offend or not - either don't use it or be prepared to get some stick!

Oh - and finaly - once in a hole, for pity's sake STOP DIGGING!!!! If you do offend someone don't try to explain. Genuinely apologise and if that is not accepted put it down to experience - if you are that far away from the person you have upset you are never likely to be friends anyway!

Hope this helps

Dave the Gnome (With no intended offense to garden ornaments)

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:16 PM

sometimes I think that a few of the people I know had their sensitivity shot off in the Crimean war...*sigh*

cartoon: Man on psychiatrists couch, twisting his head to look back over his shoulder at startled therapist-

"I said, I can't understand why people don't like me! Open your ears, fathead!"

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Matt_R
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 04:43 PM

Yes I admit it! I'm a raging plagiarist!!! I gives me no other twisted sicko pleasure than to quote people without giving credit! Wah ha ha ha! SOMEBODY STOP ME!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 04:49 PM

Dammit, Spaw, you forget to put the Matt out again.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 07:34 PM

Was that a quote Matt?

One thing I've come to think is that the real trouble sometimes isn't when you offend people, but when you don't.

What I mean is, for example you can have an ethnic joke that isn't meant as racist ,and which you'd happily tell in the presence of friends from that ethnic group (who any even have told it to you) - but tell it in the wrong company and you find someone taking it as a signal to open up the racism they've been keeping tactfully out of sight.

Though I suppose if it brings them out in the open you know who they are and what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 07:46 PM

Oh, and here's that thread where Dave and I were exchanging views

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:07 PM

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Well before the "Political correctness' phase, my folks brought me up that use of certain epitaths for others was not acceptable. None of us are perfect and I have laughed at ethnic jokes but I tend to stay away fromo them as I get older. I don't stay away from profession jokes and lawyer jokes are some of my favorite but I also try to use a bit of common sense. i don't tell them infront of lawyers unless I know them and they have a sense of humour. If the person knows you're joking and can deal with it fine. If not, i advise keeping it to yourself. It gets dicey now with people here in the United States ready to sue each other at the drop of a hat. Use common sense people and remember, if God didn't want us to laugh, he wouldn't have let us get away with creating politics. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM

What is needed of course is a type of joke which seems to target some group of people, but nobody telling or hearing the joke knows exactly which group of people are being so targeted.

This is why I created the Despised People Group Joke.

See my website: blicky

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:22 PM

Say ten people in a group each have different sensitivities ranging on a scale of 1 through to 10.

If conversation never gets above sensitivity 0 then no-one is upset and a delightful time is had by all 10!!

Happy intereaction everybody GB John

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 02:01 PM

THat's irony isn't it Geordie?

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 02:04 PM

Either that or all 10 die of boredom.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 02:17 PM

Death by insult is better than death by boredom. Discuss.

Sorry just realised that is what this thread is about.

Cheers GBJohn

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Jan 01 - 02:40 PM

Well, I want to say "Thanks" to all who have shared their thoughts and experiences here. There are four "celtic" groups here, with overlapping memberships, and the little flap that started all of this has been the topic of a great deal of considered discussion within and among the groups. There are some who still don't get it, and likely never will, but there are many more who have come to appreciate the question of sensitivity, not because they think it is politically correct, but because they see it from a more basic perspective of courtesy and civility. All in all, it has actually been a positive ripple on the pond of tranquility. As is evident from the posts to this thread, there aren't really any bright lines that one can rely on. Thoughtful conversation seems to be the best medicine for soothing ruffled feathers when we do happen to cross one of those invisible lines.

Subject: RE: BS: A matter of sensitivity?
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 12:44 AM

Crazy Eddie: The first was poking fun, the rest had an agenda (to paraphrase) I really like that. May i use it? Too well spoken you are! Alex, the site is terrific! Thanks for posting ';)