BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

CarolC,

I didn't tell you what to do. I said "please." Where I come from that counts as a request.

However, you saying "don't tell me what to do" is, er, telling me what to do. See the difference?

If you agree that the Palestinians in Israel aren't all refugees, and that Jordan is a Palestinian Arab state, then how can you refer to the refugees as "a whole people?" You are being inconsistent.

You're also ignoring history again. In 1947, the UN's UNSCOP committee partitioned the remainder of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state, AFTER Jordan was already granted to the Arabs. The Jews accepted this, and the Arabs immediately went to war. It was the Arabs who began the war, and they never denied it. The following is a quote from Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, to the UN Security Council on April 16, 1948. You will note that it's full sentences with no paraphrasing by me or anyone else:

"The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."

Israel had 140,000 armed forces in the 1948 war, their entire military-age population. Together, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq sent 670,000 troops, and the Palestinian Arabs still in Israel had 50,000. This was not a Jewish war of aggression!

You also forget that it was Jordan that annexed the West Bank after the 1948 war, not Israel. The land granted to the Arabs by the partition plan was largely absorbed into Jordan, where it did the Palestinian Arabs no good. Indeed, shortly thereafter, seeing the PLO as a rival that would surely take over Jordan, King Hussein expelled Arafat and his people.

The 1967 war, as you said, had the first shots fired by Israel at the Egyptians, but the Syrians and Jordanians attacked Israel. All three countries had been saying for months that they would attack and destroy Israel soon. The 1973 war, which pro-Palestinian argument junkies rarely mention, was a pure war of agression against Israel by the Arabs of ten countries (principally again Egypt, Jordan, Syria, but also Iraq, the Saudis and many others). If you want to play the "who was attacked more" game you will lose, unless you resort to yelling out distortons and lies.

Your saying "I'll yell if I want to," your telling Galbraith that Hitler would be proud, and many other of your actions here convince me that you're not interested in reasonable discussion of this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Galbraith
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:41 PM

Ok, Galbraith. Arafat is a bad man. He is a crook and he stole some money. Are you saying that these things justify the massive human rights abuses that Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians? Because if you are, you would be advocating collective punishment, and I'm sure Hitler would be proud of you for that. People keep using Arafat to justify Israel treating the Palestinians worse than they would treat their livestock.

CarolC put a lot of words into my mouth that have nothing to do with what I said.

My post dealt with one issue, and one issue only: Arafat's personal corruption and the proportionate effect of that corruption on his own people. CarolC then says that I used that corruption to justify human rights abuses on the part of Israel against the Palestinians.

THAT, CAROLC, IS UTTER NONSENSE AND YOU KNOW IT!

As any one who has read the post know, I did not even mention Israel. I dealt only with Arafat.

Then CarolC states that "Hitler would be proud" of me.

THAT, CAROLC, IS UTTERLY DESPICABLE AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!

I made a completely rational post about Arafat's corruption and for that CarolC infers that I'm a Nazi. Such techniques are the last resort of someone unprepared for civilized debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM

Seventh Inning Stretch

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:12 PM

I'm not in the least bit ashamed of myself, Galbraith. Are you advocating collective punishment or not? If you're not, then what I said in my last post doesn't apply to you, because I said: Are you saying that these things justify the massive human rights abuses that Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians? Because if you are, you would be advocating collective punishment, and I'm sure Hitler would be proud of you for that.

On the other hand, if you are advocating collective punishment, then what I said stands.

From nerd:

I didn't tell you what to do. I said "please." Where I come from that counts as a request.

However, you saying "don't tell me what to do" is, er, telling me what to do. See the difference?

Ok. I'll rephrase... I'll yell at you if I want to. Please don't tell me what to do.

If you agree that the Palestinians in Israel aren't all refugees, and that Jordan is a Palestinian Arab state, then how can you refer to the refugees as "a whole people?" You are being inconsistent.

I don't recall saying that I agree that Jordan is a Palestinian Arab state. Please show me where I have done this.

The rest of your points are going to have to wait until I have more time than I have right now for answering. Maybe tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM

Well, back after a few days to this. I see a "Guest" (not me, really Fred!) ripped Carol C. just perfectly about not being able to argue.

You know Carol C., I posted this thread originally just for you. I have enjoyed how you have wasted so much time and energy arguing and frantically trying to defend your stance against George Will's opinion. Millions have undgoutably read this column. Some may have bought into it, others may have not. Maybe others had their opinioned swayed or were enlightened by it.

You know, George Will writes many columns for some highly repsected newspapers. I have an idea that your opinions reached a small number of readers who have bothered to respond to this thread. I am sure that you can out debate anyone in your trailer park, especially after they have had their brains rattled by the Nascar roaring on their TV along with some Reba McIntyre music on their boombox.

Matter of fact, it kind of inspires me to look and post more articles like this when I see them. I need to keep you busy and keep your ideas off the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:31 PM

Well, gol danged. We still arguing this one out? Didn't we have enuff of this with the several 200 plus threads last year? I mean, like this stuff ain't rocket surgery folks...

Ahhhh, the Palestians are screwed. Why? Out armed big time. Danged, Isreal ougtta just nuke 'um all and be done with it rather than kill 'em off one at a time. It would be be much more humane and you wouldn't have to worry about so many family members suffering to loss of brothers, dads, sisters, mom, uncles, etc... Then after the Geiger counters quit ticking in ahunner or two years, the Isrealis can just occupy it all... Like what's wrong with that... Hey, if yer dog is suffering and is toward the end, you take it to the vet and have it put to sleep, don't ya'? Well, of course, you do. Nuke 'em for God's sake!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:31 PM

I had a feeling this was a trolling for CarolC thread. But I didn't want to sound presumptious so I didn't say anything.

Martin, I think you might want to reconsider your tactics, though. I never even had an opinion about the situation in the Middle East, other than making the basic assumption that the Arabs were probably responsible for most of the trouble, until the spring of 2002. That was during the Israeli incursion into the Occupied Territories in March, I believe. I noticed, for the first time, that the hate-filled vitriol I was seeing and hearing in the US media as well as here in the Mudcat (hate towards Palestinians) didn't match up with what I was seeing of the Palestinians myself, and with the things I was hearing them say.

I started to do a little research on my own in response to questions that these things raised in my mind. And I started discovering the Jewish human rights organizations, and discovering, through them, that I had been lied to and mislead all of my life by the US government and the US media, about the real cause of the problems in the Middle East.

So because of you, and people like you, I have learned a lot of important things I was ignorant of before, and every time you or someone like you starts a thread like this one, you provide me with an opportunity to present another side to the story. If what you want is to keep me and people like me ignorant, it would seem to me that you would be better served by not starting threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:35 PM

Good one, Brucie.

By the way, CarolC, you may say that it sounds to YOU as if I want the Palestinians removed into Jordan. But you're not reading too closely then. I have repeatedly stated my position: I think Israel should give up the west bank and that the Palestinians should have a state there. It makes the most sense demographically. BUT, the problem is that the Jordan river is a defensible border, and the border between the west bank and Israel is not. That's the whole reason that Israel has held on to the West Bank in the first place; even you would have to admit that otherwise it's been more trouble to them than it's worth. Therefore, I think that Israel is reasonable to wait until they have a workable treaty with strong safeguards in place before they do this. Once they create this state, I think that Palestinian refugees wherever they may be should move to the new Palestinian state and cease to make claims on other parts of Israel. Enough is enough.

In the meantime, I think it is misleading for Palestinian Arabs to claim that they have been deprived of a state by Israel, and that's where Jordan comes in. Jordan WAS the state set aside for Palestinian Arabs by the British, and Jordan then ANNEXED the state set aside for Palestinian Arabs by the UN. Israel now has the land because Jordan attacked Israel and then lost the war.

As regards the earlier discussion about traditional foods being Middle Eastern and not Arabic: the problem here is one of those murky cultural/racial questions. Racially, there was almost certainly no difference originally between Arabs and Hebrews. Both languages are South Semitic languages, and both groups must have descended from a pretty recent common source. (It is no accident that Arafat looks exactly like the caricatures of Jews that were so popular in Nazi Germany.) The two groups differentiated largely on religious grounds, and even the religions themselves have common roots. So there are bound to be similarities along all areas of culture. Too bad it doesn't help them get along!

Incidentally, given that Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic tongues, "Anti-Semitism" SHOULD mean anti-Arab sentiment, too. I have a good friend who was married to an Arab (he has since died), and she has been subject to a lot of harrassment since 9/11 when she travels; she got put on one of those lists that the government used to deny existed, because she had traveled a lot to Yemen and London and is the widow of an Arabic guy. She likes to accuse the security guys of Anti-Semitism, which puzzles them because she herself is Native American!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:42 PM

By the way, CarolC, you may say that it sounds to YOU as if I want the Palestinians removed into Jordan. But you're not reading too closely then. I have repeatedly stated my position: I think Israel should give up the west bank and that the Palestinians should have a state there. It makes the most sense demographically. BUT, the problem is that the Jordan river is a defensible border, and the border between the west bank and Israel is not. That's the whole reason that Israel has held on to the West Bank in the first place; even you would have to admit that otherwise it's been more trouble to them than it's worth. Therefore, I think that Israel is reasonable to wait until they have a workable treaty with strong safeguards in place before they do this. Once they create this state, I think that Palestinian refugees wherever they may be should move to the new Palestinian state and cease to make claims on other parts of Israel. Enough is enough.

Well this is where we part ways, then. Because Israel has no intention of ever letting the Palestinians keep even the land they now occupy. They won't be finished until all of the Palestinians are gone. You can take that to the bank.

The rest, as I said a little earlier, is going to have to wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM

MG, you are wicked!

Bobert, how many times do I have to tell you, Israel can't nuke the Palestinians! Then Jews really MIGHT be born with horns and big noses, from the radiation! :-) Seriously, though, you're wicked too...just a different kind o' wicked!

CarolC, what is Jordan if not a Palestinian Arab state? It's an Arab state (albeit with Bedouins substantially in control) and it's in Palestine. In fact, as I may have said one or two or three times before, it is about 77% of Palestine. You have never bothered to contradict this, and indeed if you did so you'd just be lying. In fact you quoted me at length on this in one post and then did not advance any argument to counter it. That's why I assumed you accepted that Jordan was a Palestinian Arab state.

But in re-reading your posts I discovered the truth: you have merely re-defined Palestinian to mean "the people who live in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem." Sorry, that's not what "Palestinian" means. Jordan is in Palestine and its people are mostly Palestinians.

(The current administration does this too: "when we say "patriot," we mean someone who supports Bush and Ashcroft. When we say "No Child," we in fact mean "many children." Or a la Monty Python, when I say "Dog Kennel," I in fact mean "Mattress.")

In fact, since you create racial and ethnic categories with no historical meaning, I think Hitler would be proud of you.

(Not really, but I wanted to demonstrate how easy and cheap it is to throw that one around, CarolC.)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:18 PM

Hey, Nerd, I didn't say to nuke Palestine. I said to nuke the Palestinians... Hey, I know that nukin' Palestine would be like spittin' into the wind...

Shoot, I learnt up my geometry purdy danged good, feller, so don't mess wid me.

Awww, Iz jus funnin'. Don't nuke nobody. Iz sorry I said that. If folks would jus' quit stealing other folks stuff all these issues wouldn't be issues. Specially each others lives.

Now, I ain't gonna get into how amny angels can dance on the end o' pin here, but me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule have figgured out that the US governemnt ain't done *Jack* to find a peaceful solution. Not *Jack*!!

Maybe we oughta nuke Washington, D.C.?

Nah, wouldn't solve much o' nuthin' and probably ruin my veggie garden fir years to come...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM

Part of the problem is that in the past countries surrounding Israel (This land is your land, this land is my land, from the Arab border to the Arab border to the Arab border . . .") have vowed to kill everyone in the country, "drive them into the sea". So, Israel gets a little touchy, ya know? Can't says I blame 'em.

I still would like to know where the 200 nuclear weapon figure came from. I would have thought Israel to possess fewer than twenty.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM

(Not really, but I wanted to demonstrate how easy and cheap it is to throw that one around, CarolC.)

Oh, nerd, I've had as bad as that and worse thrown at me in the many threads of this sort here in the Mudcat. I've become used to it. In fact, I almost expect it.

Right now, I have only small increments of time to be online. Just enough to respond to clever little quips like that one at the top of this post, but not enough to do the kind of work it's going to take me to thoroughly answer your other points.

I will answer this one now, though...

But in re-reading your posts I discovered the truth: you have merely re-defined Palestinian to mean "the people who live in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem." Sorry, that's not what "Palestinian" means. Jordan is in Palestine and its people are mostly Palestinians.

The people who call themselves Palestinians are the ones I have described, and the refugees from the area that is now called Israel and the Occupied territories, who are currently living in other coutries. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Obviously it's a complicated thing to sort out, but here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Website called World Religions and Cultures

"Many Palestinians, while holding Jordanian citizenship, consider themselves Palestinians first, resenting being called Jordanians (Culturgrams)."

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM

Actually, brucie, the 1967 June Wars should have impressed upon the Arab nations that pushin' Isreal into the sea ain't a realistic goal.

As fir the 200 nuclear weapons? I made it up. Shoot, you got a couple and yer in the big leagues. Ask North Korea. But seriously, I did hear a number close to that on Pacifica radio within the last month or two. Heck, it was probably jus' 170 'er so. Nuthin' to worry 'bout so you all break up. Go on home.

But seriously, Part II, what if it is 20? Hmmmmm? Ya seen a piccure of Hiroshama? Bad news fir the Arabs...

People say that the Isrealis wouldn't drop one of these things like on Syria but ask the Syrians how they feel. Or the Lebanese? Jordonese? Or the __________ese? I mean, folks who drive bulldozers thru folks homes ain't exactly trustworthy neighbors......

Now I ain't gonna get drawed into this danged thead. Poor ol' CarolC keeps fallin' fir it. I done battled this one last year. Got some shrapnel wound scars to prove it. There are some folks 'round here that think it's okay fir the Palestianians to get their stuff stolen and if ya' stand up and yell "Thief" yer branded anti-Semitic.

So this will be my last postin' to this miserable thread...

Good bye, and have at it..... again, and again, and again...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 09:57 PM

Mg, I didn't think that was you, it was that kid a while back I liked to compare you to, when I thought you sounded like him in your trollish way.

CarolC I don't see how your response to me and Nerd responded to me at all, but I understand you're busy. I really don't remember posting any historical lies to justify anything. I don't like to post history and links and such, but prefer to summarise my overall take, which is admittedly based on my own values and the conflicts they get into with the way things happen to be. Respectfully, I think your concern for human rights doesn't factor all of them in this conflict, one of which is pursuit of happiness for people whose religion I have no interest in whatsoever. Guess that's because I believe lies, and hate Palestinians.
    I didn't quite see you as an ivory tower intellectual on this until your response to Nerd that you could only speak for your own concern for human rights. Christ, no wonder people have been rude to you. Other people may be giving their lives to their beliefs, or serving in support of something larger than themselves, and you can only 'speak for yourself.' I'm beginning to think that may be exactly what you are doing, and that your views are something of a vanity. Well. Good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 12:38 PM

Other people may be giving their lives to their beliefs, or serving in support of something larger than themselves, and you can only 'speak for yourself.' I'm beginning to think that may be exactly what you are doing, and that your views are something of a vanity.

Fred, once again, I don't really understand what you're saying. Are you saying that I should tell nerd whether or not he supports human rights? I think that would be much more of a vanity than what I have done, which is to let him determine whether or not he supports human rights. In fact, I think it would be extremely presumptious for me to tell nerd whether or not he supports human rights. I think it's up to him to say what his position is on that issue.

nerd, I've decided to tackle your questions and points one by one. I'll get started on the first one in a little while.

Now I ain't gonna get drawed into this danged thead. Poor ol' CarolC keeps fallin' fir it. I done battled this one last year. Got some shrapnel wound scars to prove it.

Hey Bobert. I have been told that I fell on my head a lot when I was little. I think that probably explains it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM

CarolC,

You talk about human rights. It seems that gay Palestinians would much rather take their chances living illegally in Israel, than put up with the human rights they have in Palestinian society.

Musa moved to Israel more than four years ago for the same reason that many gay Palestinians have left their homeland -- to escape the stigma that Muslim culture imposes on homosexuality.

"Here it's okay to be homosexual," he said. "There I feel threatened."

Read the whole story from yesterday's Washington Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM

Once again, Jordan is a Palestinian Arab state occupying 77 percent of British Mandate Palestine. It is entirely a creation of the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab segments. Its name derives from the British designation transjordan, meaning "that part of Palestine on the East of the river Jordan." It was the part of Palestine the Arabs got. It is the much bigger part, and the much better part, with all the oil and other natural resources.

Ok. I'm not going to respond to this entire paragraph right away, but I will respond now to this one part:

It is the much bigger part, and the much better part, with all the oil and other natural resources.

All the oil and natural resources?

This is what the CIA Factbook has to say about the natural resources of the country that is known today as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan:

Jordan is a small Arab country with inadequate supplies of water and other natural resources such as oil.

My Random House World Atlas and the CIA factbook both list the natural resources of Jordan as follows: phosphates, potash, and shale. Jordan doesn't appear on the list of Oil producing countries in this site. I have done several Google searches to determine what Jordan't oil production and export is, and each time my search turns up nothing, as compared to countries like Saudi Arabia, which turns up quite a lot of information.

According to this site, Alexander's Gas and Oil Connection, Jordan may be able to produce oil from it's oil shale at some point in the future, but right now, any oil resources Jordan posesses are still just theoretical oil resources. And my understanding of shale oil is that it is expensive to extract and it takes a long time to put into production, so Jordan may not have any financial benefit from oil resources for a long time to come.


Oil

Jordan has no significant oil resources of its own, and relies on Iraqi oil for nearly all of its needs (around 106,000 bpd in 2002). Jordan's oil imports from Iraq are permitted by the United Nations under a special dispensation from the general UN sanctions regime on Iraq.

In December 2002, Jordan's government renewed its agreement with Iraq on oil supplies. Under the agreement, Jordan receives half of its crude oil free of charge, and receives steeply discounted prices for the rest. In addition to the crude oil imports, Jordan also imports about 20,000 bpd of refined petroleum products from Iraq, also priced at a substantial discount...

...Jordan does possess a significant quantity of oil shale resources, possibly as much as 40 bn tons. Canada's Suncor has conducted limited exploration digging in the Lajjun area, southwest of Amman, and has conducted discussions with the Jordanian government on the possible development of an oil shale extraction facility, but no development agreement has been signed.

I'll respond to the "other resources" part in my next post.

You talk about human rights. It seems that gay Palestinians would much rather take their chances living illegally in Israel, than put up with the human rights they have in Palestinian society.

So what's your answer, Guest? Kill them all? Or maybe just kill the ones who aren't gay?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:46 PM

"So what's your answer, Guest? Kill them all? Or maybe just kill the ones who aren't gay?"

You seem to have an agenda of tarring and feathering anyone who is at all critical of anything Palestinian.

Galbraith responds to Arafat's corruption and you tell him that "Hitler would be proud."

A guest points to an article about a Palestinian gay who prefers to live in Israel because of the homophobic persecution he faces in Palestinian society and you respond with innuendo impugning genocidal motives.

You're something.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:49 PM

...and you're a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:58 PM

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan Natural Resources Authority Petroleum Directorate website

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:02 PM

More direct link

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:02 PM

Yes, you're very, very good at endless expressions of your position.
But, when someone says something that you can't argue with, you shut with them right down with innuendo and name-calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:04 PM

Another link from the horse's mouth

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

That's very amusing Guest, C-watch, because that's exactly what I've noticed you doing.

Wolfgang, I don't know if you posted those links in support of what I posted, or in order to refute it, but from what I saw, they most certainly do support what I posted, which is that the oil resources in Jordan are in the exploration phase, and not the production phase, and I have not seen any solid guesses as to when Jordan might be able to get some financial benefit from oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:49 PM

is the much bigger part, and the much better part, with all the oil and other natural resources. (Nerd)

All the oil and natural resources? (Carol)

Am I right that all your long post after this start can be summarised as follows:

"You are right, Nerd, about the oil resources though at the present prices actual production may not come for a long time."

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:42 PM

CarolC I can only imagine you don't understand these points because you are too busy with your ping pong and scorecard to even consider what they mean.

You can't really think anyone ever meant to ask you what you would, in fact, do, if Indian lands were taken back, and yet you choose to respond as if it were a practical question. It's what's called a rhetorical question, and I think it was probably posed to remind you that you're discussing human affairs on planet earth, where, as in the great tragedies, even our most positive values may sometimes come into conflict.

You can't really think I meant that you should actually tell Nerd or anyone what they think about human rights, or that he was asking you to, but you choose to sit on a high horse and respond with silly pseudo-logical stuff that is very dry, but not very funny. If you really don't get it, oh well, but I think you simply prefer arguing your favorite bits, and are marking these things out of bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:32 PM

Fred, I think your posts don't make much sense to me because you're projecting onto me a lot of motives and attitudes that aren't mine. I don't consider the question of how I would feel if Indian lands were taken back to be a rhetorical one. I consider it as important as the question of how I would feel if I were a Palestinian who was being disposessed of his or her ancestral land. I think it shows a lack of regard for real human issues and the tragedies that ensue, to not see it as anything other than a rhetorical question. And I'm not just arguing my favorite bits. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but I have, several times, said that I haven't got enough time to answer these points and questions properly, as quickly as some people think I should. But I'm working on it. So how about taking a chill pill?

Wolfgang, I haven't really gotten to the crux of my big point yet. I posted the oil stuff as just one pillar in my whole premise. That particular pillar is that nobody knows just yet how much of a benefit Jordan's "oil resources" might have on the current population of Jordan (if any), much less on an influx of two million new refugees from Israel and the Occupied territories. But oil is just one factor that needs to be considered. I'm still working on the rest of my responses to nerd's questions and assertions. I suspect it's going to take a fair bit of time before you will be able to get any real sense of where I'm headed in my response, because it's very complicated, and can't be boiled down into simple sound bytes, and my time for doing this is, unfortunately, quite limited.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

So nice to see at this point that others have been catching on to what I've noticed for a while.

Carol C. is the ultimate expert on bullshit, finding things on the Internet, all of which she holds as gospel, claims to not understand what others are talking about while she tapdances and looks for more bullshit links to shove down our throat that we are supposed to take as gospel.

Keep calling others trolls, Carol C. You do it obviously at your convenience. I would suggest that you get out of your trailer court that you are hunkered down in and go talk to some real people. Why don;t you go to a synagogue in perhaps Mobile or Birmingham. They probably have something of a Jewish population there. See how many "real" Jews feel about Israel and Palestine compare to the way you profess the few radicals who take the time to set up propaganda web-sites that you buy into do. The Jewish United Fund, despite these propaganda web sites, raise huge dollars for the defense of Israel. I know. I subscribe personally.

I don't really see many others agreeing with you at this point because everyone now has you pegged. You really the sound of your own voice. But really, you say nothing redeeming.

Keep coming back at me for more. I could give a rat's ass. I consider the source. So do others.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:53 PM

You presume a lot, Martin. But considering the kinds of responses you've been getting from others here in the Mudcat, as well as your puerile behavior here, I guess I'm not going to worry too much about what you think of me.

Keep coming back at me for more. I could give a rat's ass. I consider the source. So do others.

That's pretty laughable considering you said you started this thread just for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

CarolC,

Re your post of 07 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM

Once again, your quote does not demonstrate what you said it did. Your quote was:

"Many Palestinians, while holding Jordanian citizenship, consider themselves Palestinians first, resenting being called Jordanians (Culturgrams)."

Okay...but this does not mean they were originally living in what is now Israel or the occupied territories. As I said, Transjordan was created as a British client state. The regime which named it Jordan were (I think) Bedouins installed by the British. The majority of the population is Palestinian, and many of them already lived in what is now Jordan before partition. Your quote can refer to them.

As an analogy, many Newfoundlanders consider themselves Newfoundlanders first and resent being called Canadians. This doesn't mean they came to Newfoundland from anywhere else. On the contrary, they were there before it became part of Canada. Many Palestinians were in Jordan before it became Jordan. They may feel like the Newfoundlanders do.

One thing your link does provide is a breakdown of Jordan's ethnic makeup. Guess what? Palestinians are the largest single group, at 50% of the population. So let's see, we have a 98% Arab state, in Palestine, and more of its people are Palestinian than from any other subgroup of Arabs. In what sense then is it not a Palestinian Arab state?

So Far Wolfgang has responded well to your oil points; "Jordan has oil, but it has not yet been exploited" seems to be the Jordanian Government's position. Who am I (or you?) to argue with them? Certainly it's more Oil than Israel has!

Remember, I didn't say Jordan had a lot of natural resources, just that it had a lot of natural resources relative to Israel. North America it ain't--but we knew this.

By the way, CarolC, I think you're being unnecessarily hostile towards people who don't agree with you. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have violated people's Human Rights--they have, for example, killed people. I think both you and I have to accept this or we would be in deep denial. So supporters of either side can be "for Human Rights" in general, and can understand or justify the violation of human rights in specific cases. (If not, both sides should just burn in hell and we can stop talking.) So our argument comes down to: which of those cases are justifiable? This is a gray area, not a black-and-white either-or, and I don't feel the need to impugn anyone as a Nazi or cast aspersions on their morality because they see things another way.   

In this context, to say that your opponents in an argument might not be "for human rights" or that "Hitler would be proud" of them amounts to mere insult-slinging, the latter especially in a thread about anti-Semitism where you know many of your interlocutors are Jews.   

Bobert, somehow I KNEW you didn't really mean to nuke 'em :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: mg
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 08:29 PM

was there not a tri-state originally? Jordan, Palestine and Israel? And are not many of the Palestinians in Jordan originally refugees who were given (contrary to popular opinion that Arab states did nothing..if it is indeed an Arab state..I don't know..) Jordanian citizenship? I think part of the solution is that the former British colonies, who bungled this up pretty well, and America (however defined) should take in many refugees, and the refugees who want to immigrate should not be held back by their fellows for political reasons. There has been great social pressure on them not to give in to offers of immigration etc....but they need to...they have held out long enough and it is not helping them at all. Quick offer them immigration while there are still those among them who know how to farm....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 08:56 PM

Sigh. CarolC I'm not projecting any attitudes or motives on you, but think so if that's what you enjoy. I'm only trying to discover what they are from what you say. After much consideration of what you've said I find you partisan, self-contradictory, and rather abstractly argumentative, but I have no firm idea why. I'm only guessing that you must like being that way.

Earlier the question of Indian rights was something you could do nothing about, but speak presently for Palestinians, now it's a real question which I'm ignoring the reality of. I've already said why it's substantially rhetorical--because the people most affected are dead. Instead of going around in perfectly rhetorical circles with you I believe I'll have that chill pill, thanks.

Write a book, if you're as serious as you think you are, posting history on the net is like... posting history on the net.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM

Yep Carol C. You are right. I started this thread for you.

I kind of like what Fred said so I will re-quote his post above:

"After much consideration of what you've said I find you partisan, self-contradictory, and rather abstractly argumentative, but I have no firm idea why. I'm only guessing that you must like being that way"

As for what others here think, I certazinly don't take all of thisd as dangerously silly as yourself. Besides, I also like to post somewhat seriously in the music section besides yanking a few chains such as yours south of the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:41 PM

mary,

we've gone over the history ad nausaeum above.

There was not originally a tri-state or anything like it, just a region of the ottoman empire given to British administration as the "Palestine Mandate" by the League of Nations.   The Brits subdivided the Mandate into Jewish Palestine and Arab Transjordan. Transjordan let in some of the Arabs from Jewish Palestine but not all of them. Given that the main purpose of Transjordan was to accomodate those people, it's more than just popular opinion that the Arabs didn't do enough.   

When they realized their solution was not working, the Brits referred the matter to the UN, but first unilaterally granted Transjordan independence.

Transjordan, originally set up for the purpose of being a homeland of Palestinian Arabs, became a state which was eventually renamed Jordan.

THEN the UN decided there should be another subdivision of what remained of Palestine after Transjordan was taken out. That was the divsion into Israel and a Palestinian Arab state in the west bank and Gaza strip. The Jews accepted this proposal, creating Israel. The Arab nations, including the Palestinians in the West Bank, rejected the UN's proposal, wanting all of Israel for their state. They started a war with Israel, which Israel won.

Jordan annexed the land the UN had set aside for the Arabs on the West Bank. In a later war, in which Jordan once again attacked Israel, Israel took that territory from Jordan, creating the occupied territories of today.

The occupied territories have never been a separate state, because their occupants rejected the terms of statehood offered by the UN.

Indeed, there are many who argue, as CarolC notes above in disagreement, that "Palestinian" is neither an ethnic nor a religious nor a political designation, so much as a regional one. The Palestinians, according to this argument, are not a "people" or a "nation" at all, they're just the Arabs living in a given region. As such, they are in a sense interchangeable with other Arabs and thus have no claim on Palestine particularly.

Like CarolC, I don't like or agree with this argument, but probably for different reasons. I personally can accept all of the premises, that they are not a "people" or a "nation," etc. But if they have a regional identity, that to me is significant; "southerners" in the US is an example of the same phenomenon, and some of them feel pretty strongly about it. But there are some foolish Israeli hard-liners who argue that they're all just Arabs, so why can't they live in any of the Arab countries?

Anyway, the short answer to your intial question is "no," there was no Palestinian "tri-state area."

I like the proposal you suggest, however. If the Palestinians would be willing to emigrate it would be an elegant solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:09 PM

Why not Uganda. Wasn't that offered to Jews as a potential homeland in 1947? (?) Arab world thought that was fine at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:59 PM

nerd, I can hardly keep up with the ever increasing demands that you are placing on my time. Maybe you can give me an opportunity to respond to your earlier points before you start introducing any new ones.

BTW, I don't know why you think I'm being hostile to others. As far as I can see, most of the hostility on this thread is directed at me. But I'm a big girl, and I'm handling it ok. I don't feel any hostility toward you (except maybe some exasperation at the amount of work you're giving me to do), I don't feel any hostility toward Fred, and I don't even feel any hostility toward Mr. Gibson. I don't feel any hostility towards the govenment of Israel even. A lot of mistrust, but not hostility. It's just that I see an entirely different reality than you do (as far as I can tell from your posts). And the reality I see compels me to respond to certain kinds of things in certain kinds of ways. It's how I am able to live with myself in the midst of a rather insane world.

Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have violated people's Human Rights--they have, for example, killed people. I think both you and I have to accept this or we would be in deep denial. So supporters of either side can be "for Human Rights" in general, and can understand or justify the violation of human rights in specific cases. (If not, both sides should just burn in hell and we can stop talking.) So our argument comes down to: which of those cases are justifiable? This is a gray area, not a black-and-white either-or, and I don't feel the need to impugn anyone as a Nazi or cast aspersions on their morality because they see things another way.

This is how I see it. My boyfriend when I was in high school and for a few years after I graduated, was Jewish. His grandmother was a holocaust victim. She had survived imprisonment in a concentration camp. I was living in an area that was quite Jewish, culturally. Most of my friends were Jewish. My mother was a civil rights worker when I was a child. She marched with Martin Luther King. I grew up in environments that were saturated with conscience. 'Conscience' is something that is deeply engrained in my psyche. I don't see that ever changing.

Now, I was taught, very thoroughly, by the Jewish environment in which I was growing up, that we must never allow ourselves to become complicit. And that we must never allow another situation in which people could be made to suffer as the Jews did during the holocaust. The thing that stuns me about discussions like this one, is that it looks to me like some people think "never again" should only apply to Jews. I can't see it that way. To me, "never again" means all human beings. So that is why I cannot be silent while I see Palestinians being treated by the government of Israel in ways that would horrify Jews if they saw other Jews being treated in that way by any government.

I don't feel any hostility towards Jews who are behaving in this way. I feel deep sorrow. Because even though I'm not Jewish, these people feel like my family. And the Palestinians feel like my family, too. And I feel my family being broken apart by these things. And it breaks my heart. And no matter how much it pisses off people for whom the subject of Israel and the Palestinians is a highly charged subject, I cannot be silent, and I will not allow myself to become complicit with my silence.

I'll get to your assertion that Jordan is Palestine fairly soon, but not right away.

Fred, you're welcome to whatever perception of me works for you. And you as well, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:15 AM

Thanks, CarolC. I was pretty clear about why I thought you were being hostile. (Hint: you compared one of us to Hitler, and suggested that I was not "for human rights.") But I understand that things sound differently when "re-voiced" in our heads from the writings of another person. It's why the internet will never replace talking!

Now to the argument. There are two ways to apprehend the major differences between the Jewish situation during the Holocaust and the Palestinian situation now. During the Holocaust, Jews did not stay in Europe for political reasons. Many Palestinians have decided to stay in the occupied territories for political reasons.

Secondly, During the Holocaust, Jews all over the world encouraged European Jews to come to them. Now, Arabs in other countries say "stay where you are," to the Palestinians. From these two differences we can see that the situation for Jews in the holocaust was much much worse; there was simply no political statement that was worth staying for. There are no death camps in Palestine, no gassing of innocents, no slavery.

So Arabs like to SAY it's just like the holocaust, but if it were, the Palestinians would be fleeing for their lives, and the Arabs in other countries would be giving them free passage and granting them citizenship. The fact that neither is happening should tell you something. Palestine is more like Allied-occupied Germany or US-occupied Baghdad than Nazi-occupied Poland was for the Jews. It's still not a picnic, I grant you, but Hitler's Europe it ain't. Therefore Never Again does not apply.

And to your statement that

I cannot be silent while I see Palestinians being treated by the government of Israel in ways that would horrify Jews if they saw other Jews being treated in that way by any government.

I say, when Jews see something truly horrific, first of all they encourage the other Jews to leave, then if necessary they airlift the other Jews out! Why don't the other Arabs react this way? Because the situation in Palestine is NOT currently as horrific as, say, 1942 Poland or 1987 Ethiopia. It's a military occupation such as most of the world has endured at one time or another.

And finally, the reason the Jews in Israel will continue the occupation until a workable settlement is reached is because they truly believe the survival of Israel is at stake. I happen to agree with them. I wonder if you do?

You say "we must never allow ourselves to be complicit."

Israelis say, "the question is not whether to be complicit in the abstract, but which option of complicity we choose. If we were not complicit in the military occupation of the West Bank by Jewish forces, we would be complicit in our own occupation by Arab forces. Either way, everybody suffers. So if the suffering is to be a constant, why go out of your way to be the one who suffers most? And in the process become a religion without state support anywhere in the world?"

And I say, if I have to be complicit in someone's suffering (which I unfortunately do, and so do you, at least to the extent of not rushing to Palestine ourselves to see what we can do), I'd rather do it in a world in which Israel exists. Because somewhere in the back of the Jewish mind, there is always the question: What if I have to go to Israel? Will it be there for me?

That is something, I think, that can never be engrained in your psyche because you live in a Jewish neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:46 AM

(Hint: you compared one of us to Hitler, and suggested that I was not "for human rights.")

No, I did not compare one of you to Hitler. I compared a behavior to Hitler. And I posed it as a question. I asked the other person if he/she advocated a certain behavior that I connected to Hitler. I did not accuse that person of this behavior.

I did not suggest that you aren't for human rights. What I said, and what I've been criticized by Fred Miller for saying, is that I can't speak for you about weather or not you are for human rights, that only you can say whether or not you are for human rights. *Please* stop mis-quoting me.

I have not said that what is happening to the Palestinians is like the holocaust. But it is causing suffering in individuals that is as great as the suffering in individuals who experienced the holocaust.
And when I think about what we are saying when we say, never again, I'm not thinking about all of the particular details of how that suffering is/was caused. I'm thinking about the suffering.

The reason the Palestinians are reacting differently in their circumstance than the Jews did in theirs, is because there are vastly different causitive factors for what causes suffering in the two groups. For Jews, separation from their religion and ethnic identity is often a source of some of the greatest suffering for them. In other words, it's the loss of a way of life. But because of the nature of the diaspora, this way of life is of a fairly portable nature, and, until the creation of the State of Israel, was not tied to any particular location in which they found themselves.

For the Palestinians, the destruction of their way of life, the thing that causes them some of their greatest suffering, is the loss of their land. The loss of their beloved orchards and farmland. Their culture is inextricably tied to their relationship to the land. And despite what you have tried to assert, their relationship to the land that is now within the borders of Israel and the Occupied Territories is the land they have been occupying for more than a thousand years. Maybe not calling themselves Palestinians, but living in that place nonetheless.

And finally, the reason the Jews in Israel will continue the occupation until a workable settlement is reached is because they truly believe the survival of Israel is at stake. I happen to agree with them. I wonder if you do?

I am convinced that the occupation is causing great harm to Israel as well as to the Palestinians. I'm also convinced that the government of Israel has no interest in making any settlements with the Palestinians, but is working toward their eventual removal.

If we were not complicit in the military occupation of the West Bank by Jewish forces, we would be complicit in our own occupation by Arab forces.

This, I disagree with. The premise is based on faulty information and faulty assumptions. You have been taught that these are the only choices. But you don't see what the others see. Palestinians have a saying. They say that one of the biggest problems with the government of Israel is that they just don't know how to take "yes" for an answer.

And you're right. I will never have the degree of indoctrination that you have recieved about the "history" of Israel. (Although I have certainly had enough of it to know what it is.) But some Jews do look beyond that indoctrination and see that the thing they have been taught to fear most is not the thing that is doing them the most harm.

And believe it or not, I do know what it feels like to know that there are many, many people in my daily environment who want to kill me or do other bad things to me. As a woman living in the US, I know that everywhere I go, there are men who want to kill and/or rape me just because I am a woman. I am never without that fear (or at least that realization). I never leave my home without a canister of pepper spray. But I can't go around treating all men like I think they want to kill, and/or rape me. Even though all of the facts point to the reality than many of them do. I have to deal with each one individually, and not perpetuate and injustice by treating all of them as rapists and killers.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:12 AM

I have not said that what is happening to the Palestinians is like the holocaust. But it is causing suffering in individuals that is as great as the suffering in individuals who experienced the holocaust.

-CarolC, 09 Mar 04 - 02:46 AM

what the Israeli soldiers and settlers are doing to innocent Palestinians must be described as GENOCIDE.

-CarolC, 23 Jul 03 - 11:17 AM, in this thread.

Clearly, CarolC has, indeed, equated the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza to the Holocaust.

My dictionary defines "genocide" as: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

In 1939, there were 15 million Jews in the entire world. In 1945, that number had been reduced to 9 million. Most of the Jews of Europe had been systematically exterminated.

In 1967, at the beginning of the occupation, there were slightly less than 1 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. Today, there are almost 3.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza.

Clearly, any reference to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as "genocide" is a lie. A population suffering from genocide does not triple.

I agree that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is oppressive to the Palestinians and long for a peaceful conclusion to it. However, to equate life anywhere in the West Bank and Gaza with the death and slavery of Aushwitz, or Treblinka, or Dachau or any other Nazi extermination or slave labor camp, is a despicable lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:03 PM

Guest, C-watch, nerd and I were talking about my behavior in this thread. And my behavior toward other posters to this thread.

Re: the rest of your post, I have not ever said that the two situation are quantitatively similar. But qualitatively, there are similarities.

I don't know what dictionary you use, but my dictionary (Webster's) defines "genocide" as follows:

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

The difference of that one word, destruction rather than extermination is important for understanding my use of the word in any context.

What I said in that other thread, and which you not only took out of context, you very cleverly linked to a different post of mine in that thread, maybe so people wouldn't see the entire context in which that statement of mine was made, was this (and it was in response to someone else's use of the term "mass murder" to describe what suicide bombers are doing to children in Israel):

Although if you want to use the term "mass murder" to describe what the suicide bombers do to innocent Israeli children, then by comparison, what the Israeli soldiers and settlers are doing to innocent Palestinians must be described as GENOCIDE.

It would be useful to keep in mind that the numbers of Israelis killed by Palestinians is approximately one third of the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis.

Numbers of Israelis killed by Palestinians since 2000:

846

134 of these were minors under the age of 18


Numbers of Palestinians killed by Israelis since 2000:

2,434

846 of these were minors under the age of 18

At any rate, it is not my opinion that the government of Israel or any other Israelis are committing genocide against the Palestinians. If they do succeed in removing all of the Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories, then they will be guilty of ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:35 PM

I don't know what dictionary you use

American Heritgae Dictionary -online edition

you very cleverly linked to a different post of mine in that thread, maybe so people wouldn't see the entire context in which that statement of mine was made

At any rate, it is not my opinion that the government of Israel or any other Israelis are committing genocide against the Palestinians.

If the link I provided to that thread led to a different post, there was nothing "clever" about it. It was just inexperience with the "make a link ("blue clicky") feature. In any case, if I'd been trying to keep anyone from seeing the context of your message, I would not have provided the exact reference as to date and time.

You are the one who has, in fact, said the Israelis are committing genocide. As noted, you've capitalized, in Internet convention, screamed "GENOCIDE."

what the Israeli soldiers and settlers are doing to innocent Palestinians must be described as GENOCIDE.

-CarolC, 23 Jul 03 - 11:17 AM

If they do succeed in removing all of the Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories, then they will be guilty of ethnic cleansing.

Despite the occasional statements of a few Isreali extremists, with little popular support, Israel has never attempted to remove the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. Furthermore, as you probably well know, Israel has a substantial population of Arabs whose families stayed in 1948. They have full rights of citizenship and are proportionatly represented in the Israeli Knesset. Your statement is a lie meant to inflame and cause hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM

Great post C-Watch.

Say does the C in C-Watch stand for Carol C. or for a vulgar name for female genitalia? Either way, I appreciate your post.

Carol C. maybe you should have stayed with your Jewish boyfriend. I'm sure you were treated well.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:56 PM

No Guest, C-Watch. I said:

Although if you want to use the term "mass murder" to describe what the suicide bombers do to innocent Israeli children, then by comparison, what the Israeli soldiers and settlers are doing to innocent Palestinians must be described as GENOCIDE.

I don't consider what the suicide bombers are doing to be "mass murder". So, conversely, I don't consider what the Israelis are doing as genocide. This distinction may be too subtle for you to see, but it is an important distinction nevertheless. I do not consider what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians to be genocide.

Despite the occasional statements of a few Isreali extremists, with little popular support, Israel has never attempted to remove the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza.

This is something that only time will tell.

Furthermore, as you probably well know, Israel has a substantial population of Arabs whose families stayed in 1948. They have full rights of citizenship and are proportionatly represented in the Israeli Knesset. Your statement is a lie meant to inflame and cause hatred.

What I "know" is that the Palestinians in Israel do not enjoy the same rights of citizenship as the Israeli Jews. There are a whole differen set of laws that apply to people who are not Jewish, and the laws governing representation in the Knesset is different for non-Jews than it is for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 03:12 PM

I don't consider what the suicide bombers are doing to be "mass murder".

Suicide bombings that result in multiple murders are, without question, mass murders. Since you are so find of providing links, here's a site that defines mass murder. You'll note that while suicide bombers are not specifically mentioned, the suicide bombings fit almost every criteria to a T.

What I "know" is that the Palestinians in Israel do not enjoy the same rights of citizenship as the Israeli Jews. There are a whole differen set of laws that apply to people who are not Jewish, and the laws governing representation in the Knesset is different for non-Jews than it is for Jews.

There is one, and only one difference. Israeli Arab citizens are exempt from military service. The Israeli Knesset operates in a sytem of proportional representation. The percentage of Arab Knesset members is almost identical to the proportion of Arabs within Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 06:54 PM

Just stopped in to see how everyone's doin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 06:59 PM

Well, Guest, C-Watch, the description in your link is not one that I was aware of when I made that post. If it is the correct definition of the term, then the suicide bombers would probably fit the description. But then so would Ariel Sharon, with the exception that he did not take his own life after massacring innocent Palestinians (and I'm not refering to Sabra and Shatilla). There are a number of other Israelis who fit that description as well with the exception that they have not taken their own lives after committing the murders. Personally, I think I'll still refrain from using the term "mass murderer" for both of these groups of people.

There is one, and only one difference. Israeli Arab citizens are exempt from military service. The Israeli Knesset operates in a sytem of proportional representation. The percentage of Arab Knesset members is almost identical to the proportion of Arabs within Israel.

This is incorrect. There are different laws pertaining to property ownership, and there are different laws about who can serve in the Knesset. I also don't think that the Palestinian representitives to the Knesset are allowed to vote in the Knesset, but I'll have to double check that one. Also, I heard that there is a new law about Israeli Palestinians not being allowed to marry Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. But I'll need to double check that one as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 07:50 PM

Uhhh, 'scuse me but ya'll keep on attacking CarolC with nonsense about her trailer park and Nascar screaming in the background.

Aren't they the folks that the Democrats are out to get the votes from? The Nascar Dads?

Most of 'em that I know vote Republican. I thought this was about anti-semitism and the left?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:31 PM

Your information about Arab citizenship rights in Israel is incorrect.

You can find the breakdown of parties represented in the Knesset at this link. You will note that there are two parties that are specifically Arab. Several of the leftist Israeli parties also include Arab members.

Arab members of the Knesset have eqaul voting rights within the Knesset as do the Jewish members. The votes of Israel's Arab citizens count as much as the votes of Jewish citizens in determining the makeup of the Knesset, which as I've previously noted, is based on proportional representation.

Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens and thus do not vote in Knesset election.

Arabic, by the way, is an official language of the State of Israel along with Hebrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Nerd, cookie musta got tossed
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 10:47 PM

Hi everyone,

been away from the computer all day.

CarolC, I was not misquoting you, I was stating what you suggested about me by saying "I really couldn't say." You were stating that from my posts, for all you knew, I COULD be "against Human Rights." This then suggests that my posts and my online demeanor are such that one could come away with this impression.

It would be like someone saying, "well from Carol's attitude, she MIGHT be a (fill in expletive here); I just don't know. You'll have to ask her." The stong SUGGESTION is that the speaker thinks you ARE said expletive.

And as for the person you compared to Hitler, when you say "are you saying that X applies, because if so Hitler would be proud of you," rhetorically you are suggesting a comparison to Hitler. You are trying to back someone away from a statement he has made by saying "the way I understand it, that statement suggests a Hitler-like attitude," which in itself SUGGESTS you think he is like Hitler.

Technicalities aside, it's a little offensive.

So far C-Watch and others are doing a pretty good job pointing your inaccuracies.

And you're right. I will never have the degree of indoctrination that you have recieved about the "history" of Israel.

This crap about indoctrination is pretty offensive too. There, you are misquoting me rather severely. I never said anything about indoctrination. What I said was that Jews wish Israel to exist, and that all things being equal, and given that there will be the same amount of suffering in the world (a premise I know you don't share, but one which we honestly believe to be true), we would prefer the option that keeps Israel in existence. As they say, "so sue us." But don't slander us!

I won't post new stuff because I know you haven't had time to respond to my old stuff yet.

Chief, you'll notice I haven't mentioned NASCAR or trailers once. I think that stuff is irrelevant to this discussion.