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Who Would Jesus Deport?
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Subject: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:11 PM I am worried about the Right hijacking immigration, using the issue to divert attention from Iraq, recession, health care, etc, and pounding the naive American public with tales of invading hordes of "illegals". That issue might well get them the White House in November. I have started a website to raise awareness of this issue. If you send me a SASE and mention MUDCAT, I'll send you a FREE "Who Would Jesus Deport? Stay Compassionate" bumper sticker. (long envelopes, please, not those short stubby ones.) Move On has shown no interest in the issue, and the major democratic candidates are scared of it. So I hope some Mudcaters will join me in going on record against Willie Hortonization of the immigration issue. It could cost progressives dearly if we don't start speaking out. For info and my address, www.WhoWouldJesusDeport.org Please spread the word. thx, sb |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: gnu Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:31 PM Depends on their deportment. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:34 PM I don't think it would be in his nature to deport anyone, but he did kick the moneylenders out of the temple... So maybe he would kick the lobbyists out of the political process, that's what I'm thinking. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:39 PM Steve, I'm with you on this one. I'm glad to see you agree with Jesus, even if you don't believe in His divinity. Seriously: I realize that I've been pouring on a good bit of disagreement over that "Amazing Grace" issue, but I certainly realize that you and I share quite a few (other) common values and opinions. This whole "issue" of immigration is such a load of horse hockey, and it is indeed useful to right-wing candidates and pundits almost exclusively for its value as a distraction from real problems. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:40 PM PS: Steve, isn't it about time you joined up and elevated yourself from GUEST status? It's free, it's easy, you can send and receive PMs, and you won't have to type your name every time you post... |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:45 PM The right is not hijacking the immigration issue; it is leading the fight against illegal immigration. The health care issue is part and parcel of the illegal immigration issue. The economy is part and parcel of the illegal immigration immigration issue. Perhaps the etc. has roots in the illegal immigration issue, too. Does that divert your attention away from the war in Iraq...perhaps you need a better attention span. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM A lot of bigotry involved in the 'illegal' immigration nonsense. With the U. S. birthrate dropping, and unemployment near record lows nationally, illegals should be welcomed. Wake up! Manufacturing jobs lost to a globalizing world economy will never be regained. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM If Mexican (in particular) labor was able to come to the U.S. to work a lot of people might be surprised to learn that they'd go home when they could. Most people have a fondness for the place where they grew up and they want to stay there. Given the best of both worlds, many who are illegal today would come and go happily and legally if they were given the opportunity. And when you read about not just the horrors of getting across the border but also of the horrific trip up the length of Mexico, those coming to work here would be better served to save their money for a ticket to ride IN the train (and not on top or on an undercarriage) and walk or ride across, not pay a coyote to direct them to swim or hike, or die. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM I notice that no one ever talked about building a wall on the Canadian border. But the primaries aren't over yet. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM Q, Amen, lots of bigotry and scare tactics. I think John overestimates the sophistication of the American voter. Easily diverted from substance by scary stories. Immigration is no more a problem now than it was ten years ago. WHY is it the hot issue today for the Republicans? Because they can't solve Iraq, health care, economy, global warming, etc etc. Americans unite best when they perceive an evil bogeyman in their midst, be it a commie or an Islamofacist, now the Repubs are trying to scare us with the horde of illegals. Bumper stickers anyone? They're free. sb |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:13 PM There will always be a huge illegal immigration problem with poor populations trying to get into richer societies...as long as there is gross economic inequality remaining in the world. Keep in mind that Big Business wants that gross economic equality to be perpetuated so that they can move their manufacturing and labor jobs to countries where where the labor is dirt cheap. Those countries can (usually) be controlled by keeping them under the rule of rich bullies with large armies and police forces, and those bullies are also the friends of big business worldwide. If a country refuses to play ball with Big Business, then it can be invaded, destablilized or embargoed into submission... See the magnitude of the problem? It's not just a problem existing within the borders of the USA. It's a world problem, and it has to do with the haves (the very rich) and the have-nots. It's the same problem the world has been facing for the last several thousand years. Further excuses will be found to arrest, deport, and kill the less cooperative have-nots, I assure you. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM SB - thank you for slamming the American electorate. That's pretty smug of you. BTW, I don't speak for Jesus, and I don't read his ancient mind...maybe you do. But it makes a good bumper sticker. My 17 year old niece also speaks bumper stickerese. It sounds good, and she doesn't have to have ideas of her own. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM OK John, your points are well taken and deserve a more serious effort at refutation. People from other countries would not be coming to the US were it not for the fact that seriously monied individuals and companies/corporations are eager to hire them. Agribusiness has long been the most obvious exploiter of illegal labor, but they're not alone. To the limited extent that undocumentated laborers and their families may manage to receive public benefits funded by taxpayers, the effect is to subsidize the employers who are responsible for attracting these workers and who are evading any responsibility for providing them with compensation and benefits that most of us consider to be "normal." Such employers, of course, are the primary beneficiaries and proponents of contemporary right-wing politics. Is it necessary to point out the hypocrisy? Actually, I feel a certain degree of agreement with this particular application of laissez-faire economics. The system is wildly illogical, inconsistent, and unjust, but it works really well as a way to get certain kinds of work done cheaply and efficiently. The currently ongoing house-by-house rebuilding of New Orleans, for example, would not be remotely possible if undocumented Hispanic workers were not available to the typical cash-strapped homeowner who has been royally screwed by the insurance companies that reported record profits in 2005 despite the hurricane-damage claims that they should have paid out. Irrational demands to "build a wall and keep 'em out" are simply unrealistic. The American economy would fall apart without the contributions of these undercompensated workers. Political campaigning that emphasizes this "issue" is very rarely anything more than fearmongering, and it indeed does distract the public from more substantive issues. As far as health care is concerned, if we were indeed to have a simple single-payer system like the rest of the industrialized world, the simplest and cheapest policy would be to care for everyone, regardless of citizenship (just like other countries do for visiting Americans). Eliminating the huge amounts of money spent on red tape and on the effort to deny health care whenever possible, even to Ameicans with paid-up insurance coverage, would free up plenty of resources to allow doctors and nurses to do their jobs. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM "WHY is it the hot issue today... Because they can't solve Iraq, health care, economy, global warming, etc etc..." Exactly! John on the Coast is right on this one. You can't solve any of the above mentioned problems, and a whole lot of others, unless you solve the problem of illegal immigration first. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM Slamming the American electorate is the American way. It's called Freedom of Speech. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM You mean Whom, of course... |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM Right on! It would also be socially just and responsible. The thing to do with sick people is heal them, not put legal and financial impediments in the way of doing so. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:26 PM Perhaps we should all pause and give a listen to Woody Guthrie on this issue: Deportees |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM "You can't solve any of the above mentioned problems, and a whole lot of others, unless you solve the problem of illegal immigration first" OK Rig. I'll bite. Play connect the dots for me. How will solving the illegal immigration "problem" resolve the situation in Iraq and global warming? I wanna hear this one. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:36 PM "SB - thank you for slamming the American electorate." Oops, sorry to offend, but it's true, I have little faith in the ability of the American public to see thru bullshit. We are easily manipulated and have a distaste for political substance. The American electorate is unsophisticated, easily swayed by emotion, unable to process data, hungry for simplistic explanations and distasteful of complexity, and generally unable and unwilling to understand issues. (Has anyone noticed how much of the election coverage is devoted to style, and so little to substance? The experts know that is all we can handle.) And by the way, immigrants are such a TINY percentage of health care costs, especially when one considers all the taxes they pay (ie. sales tax), that I think anyone who believes they are causing serious economic problems belongs in the category of voter I describe in the previous paragraph. sb |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:37 PM And that's a great question from Wesley. We're standing by for a response. sb |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM Hey, Wesley S, ya caught me! I really don't want SB to have free speech! Get real! Nice straw man about taxes, SB. Sales taxes cover a myriad of local services, not just health care, which illegal immigrants use also. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM "OK Rig. I'll bite. Play connect the dots for me. How will solving the illegal immigration "problem" resolve the situation in Iraq and global warming? I wanna hear this one." Well, to solve the war in Iraq, you'd have to get rid of the idiot that started it, but that wasn't on John's list. I live in Oregon. A few years back they tried to put in state-wide health care here. What happened was, many people who couldn't get health care in some other place moved to Oregon and swamped the system. That's exactly what would happen with national health care. Look at the way illegal immigrants have swamped the schools. As far as global warming, that's a no brainer. More people simply put more demand on resources. Bringing a bunch of poor people from Latin America and turning them into United States super consumers will make the current rate of global warming look insignificant. The biggest problem with the current immigration debate is, the globalists are encouraged to leave the environmental issues out of it. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:01 PM Millions of people listen to the mindless screaming of Lou Dobbs and his ilk on CNN and other so-called news channels. I have little faith in the paranoid responses of many U. S. citizens. In my city of 1 million (Canada), 20% are foreign-born. We could use a lot more. Poppagator, Hispanic construction workers from Mexico and Central America, coming on work visas, are in demand here as well but there are too few to fill the need. They know how to work with their hands and tools and need little supervision. Good luck in the rebuilding and repopulation of NO. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:02 PM Rig - Wow - thats your answer? It matters what side of the border the people live on? And I notice you're mostly concerned about the people from Latin America. Why? Keep going. How will the immigration issue affect the war in Iraq? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:36 PM John on the Sunset Coast wrote: Nice straw man about taxes, SB. Sales taxes cover a myriad of local services, not just health care, which illegal immigrants use also. Riginslinger wrote: What happened was, many people who couldn't get health care in some other place moved to Oregon and swamped the system. That's exactly what would happen with national health care. Look at the way illegal immigrants have swamped the schools. Sales tax is just a small part of the equation. Taxes collected by employers from illegal workers are never refunded to those illegal workers. Social Security paid by illegal workers will never be collected by those illegal workers. You can't dismiss the tax issue as a "straw man," to the contrary, this is an aspect of the illegal immigrant situation that is usually not disclosed by the Bush crowd. Oh, and by the way, it isn't "a myriad of." It's just "myriad." Riginslinger, the state of health care in the U.S. is a disgrace, as is the state of American education. Where else but in a nation where corporations work to enact hugely beneficial legislation would "universal health care" be a plan where everyone, even the poor, would be required to buy health insurance from private or supposedly "non-profit" companies (i.e., Blue Cross/Blue Shield)? The offer of a tax break or credit is the bait and switch of it--a company gets richer by collecting premiums and the government collects less tax. Whose fault is it if we fall for this shell game year after year? Step back for a moment. People who don't have the money to begin with are asked to pay cash into the pockets of insurance companies. Pure profit as long as no one is sick in the family, and if someone is sick, you can bludgeon them by forcing high co-pays on consumers and bludgeon doctors by forcing them to accept much smaller payments than they actually charge (my doctor stopped taking my health BC/BS insurance plan for this reason.) If the "insurance" companies were taken out of the picture then you could work out a more equitable and cost-effective universal health plan. Oregon just didn't get it right or was in the wrong position when they put it into play for it to work. Don't blame illegal aliens and the poor for the Oregon failure. Same goes for schools. Until the U.S. as a whole gets serious about education and starts funding it the way it needs to be funded, schools are going to do everything they can to cut corners. I won't put your bumper sticker on my vehicle because I don't want people to think I sanction Jesus as a spiritual leader or a prophet or see him as an example. For me he's a historic figure, period. Invoking his name in this fight just brings up a different argument for some of us. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:50 PM Q, it is not,[repeat is not] about immigration. It is about ILLEGAL immigration! Many years ago, before 1964, California had a wonderful (not a perfect) way to employ Mexican farm workers. They would come in, work, and then when the planting or harvests were completed go back home with more money than they would have earned in Mexico. I know of few people who are against a regularized immigration of foreign workers when locals cannot fill all the slots. I know from news reports that in the Los Angeles area, Blacks were the largest group of dry wall hangers, and making about $18.00/hr, not a munificent sum today. With illegal immigrant labor, the rate has dropped to about $12.00/hr. At a nuclear power plant in California, it had been found that a large proportion of maintenance painters provided by a labor contractor were illegally working foreigners. There is no shortage of qualified painters in southern California. Should the workers be deported? I think so. Should the labor contractor be punished? Severely. We had an illegal immigrant amnesty during the Reagan administration. Well it didn't work. No one acted on the penalty provisions that were supposed to follow the amnesty. It became just one big, scofflaw joke. Do you wonder there is a problem, and ye, it is a problem with illegal immigration now? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM Wesley - I've already said. Illegal immigration has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. You would only want to control runaway immigration if you wanted to solve most of the other problems. "Riginslinger, the state of health care in the U.S. is a disgrace, as is the state of American education..." I agree, and illegal immigration is rapidly making it worse. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM We HAVE universal health care in Canada, Rinslinger. The world has not poured in and swamped our system. They also have totally free (and very good) health care in Cuba and they have universal national health care plans in place in most of western Europe. The world has not poured in and swamped them yet either. Still, you have a point about Oregon...of a sort. If one makes something that's very worthwhile available in a place, and it's not available in a place that's right next door, people will certainly come in in droves to enjoy it, true. So the answer, obviously, is to make it available everywhere, isn't it? And how does one begin to do that? By beginning at home, where one has the power to do so. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM Thank you Silly, you corrected my most cogent point ...myriad. I'll try to be more careful in the future. BTW, 'ye' in my last post should be 'yes'. I hope I caught that before you did. We all know that this is a problem with many causes and villains. It needs repair. Repairs don't always solve a problem completely in one fell swoop. But we have to start somewhere. Then we have to take the next step, and the next until the problem is under control. We don't cease prosecuting bank robbers because there will be yet other bank robbers to take their place...and other banks to rob, for instance. Why should illegal immigration be different from other illegal activities? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM Incidentally: My sister and brother-in-law are professors of political science at the University of Illinois, and are in New Orleans this week attending a professional/academic meeting. They passed along the following information, from a paper presented at the meeting yesterday or the day before: A study of US communities formerly tolerant of undocumented workers shows that the crime rate always begins rising to a significant extent immediately upon institution of an immigration "crackdown." The reason is that decent hardworking people who formerly cooperated with police to solve crimes in their economically-disadvantged neighborhhoods suddenly find themselves in a position where the cops are their enemies. Less communication, fewer arrests and prosecutions, more criminals remaining on the streets with increasingly emboldened attitudes. The basically virtuous character of the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens should not be ignored. As has already been noted above, these folks almost invariably exhibit a much stronger work ethic than homegrown American hirelings, are more productive, require less supervision, etc. Also, even among those who might not be as virtuous as others, they know they're "illegal" and subject to prosecution, deportation, etc., and therefore are not wont to draw attention to themselves by antisocial behavior. Almost invaraibly, the only thing "illegal" about such individuals is their immigration status. For non-citizens, the vast majority of our undocumented guest workers are pretty damn good citizens. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM Little Hawk, you're probably correct that there isn't a large influx of people to participate in the Canadian Health Care System. But there are Canadians who come to the US for procedures that they cannot get at all, or have a long waiting period to get at home. So the Canadian system has deficiencies also. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM RE: Health care: "So the answer, obviously, is to make it available everywhere, isn't it?" LH - Yes! That is the answer, and I'm all for it. But we'd either have to seal off the border--keeping in mind that Mexico is a conduit for all points south--or wait until Mexico has universal health care before the US can put it into play here. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM I suspect that Jesus being the sort he was he would be inclined to deport the Pharisees, the Philistines, the money-changers and usurers, and perhaps them imperialist fascist types. He was good at seeing through folks, according to legend, and would not be fooled by sanctimony or lip-service. Nor would he be at all inclined to kick out folks who wanted honest labor and pay to feed their children. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Donuel Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:22 PM I don't think Jesus was fond of uncircumsized Philistines...or the Romans...or the ARM sub prime money lenders. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:24 PM Why does no one seem to show the same concern for the Canadian border? Why do all of these nonbigoted people only show concern about the Mexican border? But we're all falling into the same trap. The neo-cons in this country WANT us to be upset about immigration problems. It's the old shell game. While we're up in arms about Mexicans { aka "the Boogieman } coming across the border we're ignoring bigger problems. I suggest we re-read Steves inital post. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:33 PM "While we're up in arms about Mexicans { aka "the Boogieman } coming across the border we're ignoring bigger problems." Yes, we could have Rastifarrians coming in from Jamaica! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:35 PM ...or wait until Mexico has universal health care... Don't they already have it? I was in an auto accident in the Sonora desert back in about 1973 or 74. I was taken to a hospital, got a few stitches put into the top of my head, was kept under observation for an hour or so, and released. My three traveling companions also received whatever medical attention they required. None of us were charged a penny, even though we were obviously not Mexican citizens and might easily have been seen as "rich Americans." We were, indeed, white Americans who could afford to travel (just barely), and were undoubtedly more affluent than most Mexicans, but we could not have paid for the services we received if the accident had occurred north of the border. Not easily, anyway, and certainly not on the spot. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:40 PM So - Rig - It sounds like you have a problem with people of color. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM I sure do, they keep coming across the border and crowding into emergency rooms for healthcare when they have it for free living at home. I would think anybody would get pissed over that. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM No - Just the bigots among us. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:57 PM I looked up Mexican health care. It seems to be based on their social security system, so that only people working in some kinds of professions are covered. The article I read said only about half of the people are covered. My best guess is--and this is only a guess--the folks coming across the border to work in the states fall in the 50% who are not covered. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM In respect to your post of 11 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM , John... Yes, you're right. The Canadian health care system, though a good one on the whole, does have some deficiencies. This could probably be said of any nation's health care system. There are always some improvements that can and shoud be made. For example: We badly need public health insurance to cover the costs of dental care. And that's just one area in need of improvement. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:33 PM As SRS said earlier, the problem isn't illegal immigration, it is that the people who want to migrate to the US (that is migrate, not immigrate) to work and support their families at home are faced with horrendous difficulties getting here and than don't go home again because they don't want to face that journey again. Yes, we have had guest worker programs in the past in the US - the bracero program was notorious for the high level of skimming and kickbacks by/to the labor contractors and for the low pay and poor working conditions experienced by the workers themselves. The key to ending illegal immigration isn't fines, fences and massive deportations, it is a guest worker program that works, that pays the individual a wage and provides benefits equal to those earned by a citizen doing the same work, that allows him/her to pay into (and later collect) Social Security and that provides positive incentives for returning home. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:40 PM Mexico has made rapid strides in health care. Dr. Richard Horton, physician and editor of the "Lancet," says, "The Mexican health reform has been a global laboratory for proving how to give access to a range of vital services to the entire population." The Lancet is perhaps the premier medical journal in the UK. Mexican health |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:40 PM artbrooks - I pretty much agree with you, but I suspect that if American inudstry had to pay the immigrant laborers a fair wage an benefits, there wouldn't be nearly the demand for their services. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Big Mick Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:50 PM I will definitely be in touch, Steve. This is one of the most important issues out there. I believe it is a red herring, and that the problem is not much worse than it has ever been. I often chuckle at young Irish Americans that complain about this issue. When I asked why, I point out that the story of the hispanic immigrants is their story. I point out that it immigration, legal and illegal, is what this country was built on. I point out that the immigrant groups working in these jobs has always been the case. This is nothing more than a modern day incarnation of the Know Nothings. Instead of Irish Catholics, it is the Mexican laborer that is being vilified. I am currently writing, at the suggestion of one of the best lyricists I know (Jeri), a series of songs about the issue, one of which has a working title of "It's Your Story". Mick |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:54 PM When someone complains about newcomers to this country it makes me want to ask how long ago their ancestors got here. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:58 PM "I won't put your bumper sticker on my vehicle because I don't want people to think I sanction Jesus as a spiritual leader or a prophet or see him as an example. Sally." Sally, this point is a good one. However, I actually don't see Jesus as a spiritual leader either. But he is considered by Americans to be the model that THEY choose to base their moral decisions on. So forcing Mitt Romney (for example) and his followers to ask what THEIR moral leader would do is, I think, very appropriate. So I hope you'll get one of my stickers. They're free, and the will force more people to think about compassion in the immigration debate. And, hey, that's all I'm really saying with the Website, let's keep compassion in the dialogue, however we feel about the issue and the proposed solutions. I am dismayed at the mean spiritedness of the debate and would love to see that change. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Teribus Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:59 PM PoppaGator, as far as "Deportees" goes, IIRC, although written by Woody Guthrie, I do not think he ever performed it, or knew of it as a song, he sort of chanted it as a poem. It was not until he was wheeled into a Folk Festival somewhere in the US in 1958 or 1959 that he heard it performed as we would all recognise it now. Someone else put the tune to it, I will not be able to find out who that was until Monday. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 11 Jan 08 - 06:13 PM Yeah, Teribus, I learned that recently, when I set out to re-learn the song as newly relevant in post-Katrinas New Orleans. (I had performed it years ago, but forgotten the complete lyrics over the intervening years.) I read the name of the fellow who put the words to the melody we now know, but can't remember him right now. "Deportees" is notable not only because Woody wrote it as a poem (or a disembodied lyric), but also because it can be regarded as his final composition. Or, at least, some people contend that it is. He wrote it in the late '40s, not long after the actual event in Los Gatos Canyon, and perhaps the reason for his never having put it to music is that his neurological condition was already starting to deteriorate. Maybe, maybe not, but sources that I recently read on the Internet (not absolutely trustworthy, of course, I know) contend that he never wrote another such poem or lyric, and certainly no words-and-music song, after "Deportees." |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:01 PM What would Jesus say about organized labor, collective bargaining and fair compensation? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:12 PM Jesus? That was a refugee family wasn't it? Illegal immigrants in Egypt because of some problem with King Herod back in Judea. Ended up needing to be terminated with extreme prejudice by the Roman Peacekeepers after rendition from the Civil Authorities. That sort always seem to get into trouble. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:15 PM Yes, they were refugees. Quite common at the time. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Greg B Date: 11 Jan 08 - 08:09 PM Most of the members of the USCCB, as far as I can tell. In company with their spokespersons and chancellors. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Bobert Date: 11 Jan 08 - 08:41 PM Immigartion is a real problem and real problems aren't solved with easy answers... This is going to take the wisdom of a bipartisan comission that is entrusted in finding solutions, much like the 9/11 Commission... I firmly believe that when we put elder statesman together that these folks can cut thru the political posturing and come up with something that we can all live with... The challenge is for the rest of US to live with what they come up with... No one is goin' to get everything they want here, folks... No one... But to do nothin' is irresposible... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 11 Jan 08 - 11:19 PM "Immigartion is a real problem and real problems aren't solved with easy answers..." How about this, EVEN IF immigration were a "real problem" for U.S. citizens, by what right may we pass laws to exclude folks from the richest agricultural terrain on the planet and keep it for ourselves? (Especially given that we stole it ourselves.) I would like to see the immigration debate address THIS fundamental issue. It's NOT just about what policies are best for the haves. It's what's best for the planet. Or so it seems to me. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:21 AM Well, Guest Steve, I think you've hit the nail on the head. If we look at what is best for the planet, we would be interested in decreasing the size of the "human footprint," I would think. The best way to do that would be to intervene in human migration around the globe, so we are not encouraging people to move from hopelessly overpopulated areas to places that are not-quite-yet overpopulated. And work on saving wilderness, oceans, wild and sea life, organic farming and etc. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:34 AM We spent hundreds of millions on compensating Iraqi families for having spent hundreds of billions shooting up their country and wiping out a lot of their relatives. All in a good cause, of course. But it seems to me probable that with what they contribute in the taxes they pay and the low cost labor they provide, we may not be facing as large a problem as we are making out to have. I'd like to know what the hard numbers are, but its an invisible economy, I suppose. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: bankley Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM Jesus who ? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:09 PM JEsus Ramirez Gonzalez Ramon Garcia, of course. Woddya think? A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:16 PM If we want to be hard asses, fine, but let's recognize the suffering this inflicts on good, hard working people, many who have US citizen family here. In Calif, where I live, we've had more than our share of conservatives wanting to kick kids out of public schools because their papers aren't in order, tear families apart by deporting the parents of US citizen kids, deny health care to the sick, etc etc etc. I'd like to see the immigration debate consider that we inflict a lot of suffering when we adopt Romney-esque, Giullani-esque, Huckabee-esque, Hunter-esque, and Republican-esque policies. My hope is that we keep the "human" side of immigration policy in mind. Surely we can ALL agree on that, no? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:15 PM Well, not entirely. Huckabee wants to change the "birthright citizenship" thing. That way the kids wouldn't be citizens at all, and the entire family could go back to Mexico together. Huckabee always was a family kind of guy. Also, we should probably consider the pain inflicted on this side of the border when immigrants come in and drive wages into the toilet. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM There is an interesting article in this week's ECONOMIST. Many of us in the US believe (erroneously) that migration is strictly an American problem, and this article discusses the issue on a more global scale. One of the conclusions it reaches, and this is in a section focusing directly on the problems being faced in the US, is that illegal migration has a very small (5% or less) effect on wages, and that is only at the lower end of the pay scale. Unemployment is presently at 4.7% and some labor economists will say that 5% is the "natural" level of unemployment, reflecting those who are between jobs voluntarily, those who are active looking and those who have unofficially taken themselves out of the job market. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:59 PM Thanks for bringing that article up. I'd say immig not only has a small effect on wages, it has a small negative effect on any aspect of our lives. And the positives are huge. Look at how immig, legal and illegal (we can rarely tell the difference), affects us positively, all the folks in restaurants, hotels, strawberry fields, our homes, local cultural centers, doing work and producing things that benefit us. Let's face it, illegals are being exploited as whipping boys and girls for cynical politicians. Is it REALLY that hard to believe that politicians would do such a thing? Especially when Iraq and the economy are not going real well. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:23 PM Actually, the unemployment rate just went up, and if you're at the bottom of the pay scale, a five percent reduction would be hard to take. So while the article is probably right about that, it still hurts the same people. Futher, I think there is a lot of evidence that this is a world wide problem. Europe is having to deal with many of the same issues North America is. But I would disagree completely with Guest Steve. I think many element of legal immigration, almost all illegal immigration is counter productive to the greater society. It looks to me like he is just tooting the "corporate-globalist" horn here. Sure illegal immigration is good for the board of directors of the Holiday Inn, but it's not good for me, or anyone I know. Steve's last point, however, makes a lot of sense, unless you listen to John McCain who says the war is going well. But in the end, if the economy continues to slide, a lot more people will become aware of the downside of immigration. |
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Subject: RE: Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jan 08 - 01:35 PM Pedantic note - "whom", not "who". ................................. Maybe America would be a better place in some ways if they'd never had any of these immigrants come in. But it's a few centuries too late to turn back the Pilgrim Fathers and suchlike. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM I have yet to see evidence that immigrant labor drives wages into the toilet. I submit that globalization has probably done far more in this regard. And it is not the same thing at all. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:23 PM It seems like the same thing to me. You either import cheap labor to the job, or you export the job to cheap labor. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:28 PM Au contraire. Cheap labor Stateside is aa lot moe expensive, and also generates tax revenues and contributions to the SS pot -- both good reasons for making it easier for such to become legal. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:33 PM "Cheap labor Stateside is aa lot moe expensive, and also generates tax revenues and contributions to the SS pot..." Very little. A lot of these people are paid cash under the table, and no tax at all is generated. Besides, even the ones who are taxed cost a lot more in public services, so in the end, the country would be better off to simply export the jobs. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 13 Jan 08 - 03:07 PM Since Jesus didn't like the money lenders, it seems to me that he would deport the bankers. Seems like banks are making huge profits at the expense of everyone. He'd probably ban credit cards at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 13 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM He objected to the moneylenders who were set up in the entranceways of the temple, I believe. That might be a contexual distinction, but we are parrying groundless hypotheticals in any case. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM Well, I suggest that he would get quite tough with lobbyists, bankers, credit card companies, health insurance outfits, and various other people like that who are letting their search for profits royally screw up the rest of society and ruin millions of people's lives. The moneylenders, in other words... He would advise them to distribute their excess wealth to those less fortunate. That's when they would hire someone to kill him. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: the lemonade lady Date: 13 Jan 08 - 05:17 PM His Dad, for not being there on his big day! Sal |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jan 08 - 05:57 PM That was good, Sal! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jan 08 - 08:32 PM Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest (Matt: 11:28) |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:26 AM Did y'all hear John McCain get booed the other day when he spoke out against wholesale deportations and in favor of compassion??? As much as I don't like him, he's got a heart on immig. "Sure illegal immigration is good for the board of directors of the Holiday Inn, but it's not good for me, or anyone I know." Well, I'm not on any board of directors, but I sure benefit, and you probably do too, if you live in the US and buy fruit, eat in restaurants, call out for home delivery meals, stay in hotels sometimes, have your house cleaned, hire gardeners, etc etc. sb |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:01 AM Guest Steve - Great, glad to hear McCain got booed on the immigration issue in Michigan. I hope he gets trounced there. Illegal immigration in certainly not good for me. I would happily pay a little more for fuits and vegetables (though I think the farms would quickly mechanize, and I wouldn't have to do that) than see hospitals close because they could no longer afford to run the emergency rooms, and see schools swamped with the off spring of the illegals. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:35 AM People are finally beginning to realize that illegal immigration is part of the corporatocracy: http://blip.tv/file/520347 |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:16 AM "off spring of the illegals" - charming use of language. Not too surprised really. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:12 PM This would be, of course, depriving individuals who were born in the United States and are therefore US citizens, under the provisions of Article XIV, Section 1 of the Constitution, of their right to equal rights and protection. Fat chance. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM "...some labor economists will say that 5% is the "natural" level of unemployment, reflecting those who are between jobs voluntarily, those who are active looking and those who have unofficially taken themselves out of the job market." In the US, as I understand it, unemployment statistics include only those eligible to collect unemployment benefits, i.e., those who had a job (an "above-ground" job) until recently, and whose terminiation was not voluntary AND not due to their own malfeasance. People fired for cause, people whose recent employment history has been in the invisible/underground economy, and people who have not worked at all during the past year or so, are NOT reflected in unemployment statistics. 5% unemployment may indeed be "natural," and it is, after all, a pretty low figure. But it does not include all the categories of unemployed individuals implied above. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:59 PM Not exactly. From the US Bureau of Labor Statistics: Is the count of unemployed persons limited to just those people receiving unemployment insurance benefits? No; the estimate of unemployment is based on a monthly sample survey of households. All persons who are without jobs and are actively seeking and available to work are included among the unemployed. (People on temporary layoff are included even if they do not actively seek work.) There is no requirement or question relating to unemployment insurance benefits in the monthly survey. Does the official unemployment rate exclude people who have stopped looking for work? Yes; however, there are separate estimates of persons outside the labor force who want a job, including those who have stopped looking because they believe no jobs are available (discouraged workers). In addition, alternative measures of labor underutilization (discouraged workers and other groups not officially counted as unemployed) are published each month in the Employment Situation news release. Are undocumented immigrants counted in the surveys? Neither the establishment nor household survey is designed to identify the legal status of workers. Thus, while it is likely that both surveys include at least some undocumented immigrants, it is not possible to determine how many are counted in either survey. The household survey does include questions about whether respondents were born outside the United States. Data from these questions show that foreign-born workers accounted for about 15 percent of the labor force in 2006 and about 47 percent of the net increase in the labor force from 2000 to 2006. My own opinion would be that undocumented ("illegal") workers are significantly undercounted because of their (justifiable) fear of the consequences of disclosing their presence. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM I believe that undocumented workers are not the only ones undercounted in the unemployment stats. While I have understood all along that the numbers are not "officially" restricted to those receiving benefits, I would still contend that a fair number of those unemployed folks who are ineligible for benefits ~ and there are quite a few ~ are indeed omitted from the official unemployment figures. Not strictly because of their ineligibility for benefits; it's just that such individuals are the most likely to "fall though the cracks" and not to be counted, for any number of different reasons. Many are probably never counted. Not a huge number, but probably enough to throw off the official numbers by a couple-or-three percentage points, if not more. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:44 PM Oh, and by the way, it isn't "a myriad of." It's just "myriad." (SRS) Merriam-Webster's online: Recent criticism of the use of myriad as a noun, both in the plural form myriads and in the phrase a myriad of, seems to reflect a mistaken belief that the word was originally and is still properly only an adjective. As the entries here show, however, the noun is in fact the older form, dating to the 16th century. The noun myriad has appeared in the works of such writers as Milton (plural myriads) and Thoreau (a myriad of), and it continues to occur frequently in reputable English. There is no reason to avoid it. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Mr Red Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:46 PM Who would JC deport? Pontius Pilot of course. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:51 PM I believe that's Pilate, Red, unless he was a commercial ship-handler before he got into politics... A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: John MacKenzie Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:03 PM I haven't joined in on this one as I'm an atheist, but the title annoys the hell out of me. WHOM would Jesus Deport Puleeeeeeze |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM Or: Who would deport Jesus? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:12 PM That makes at least three separate postings to this thread in which someone has made this particular grammatical correction ("whom" not "who"). Read the dang thread first, please! ;^) Well, OK, I know it's become quite long and it'd be hard to read every word... Perhaps Joe/joeclone might edit the title to satisfy all grammarians and put them at ease... PS, Giok: Being an atheist does not disqualify one from this discussion. Even the OP himself, GUEST,Steve Baughman, explicitly professes atheism, FWIW. |
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Subject: RE: Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:37 PM Thanks for the quick edit to the thread title! |
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Subject: RE: Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:43 PM Jesus would deport GIOK!!!!! (giggling and running away madly...) |
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Subject: Who /;Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: John MacKenzie Date: 14 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM Can't be deported by someone who never existed LH, but thanks for the vote of confidence. Like Pontius Pilate, [allegedly] I always wash my hands afterwards! G. |
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Subject: RE: Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:02 PM I can readily see that you wouldn't think he was "God" or "the Son of God", etc, GIOK, but what on Earth makes you so sure that he never existed? I mean, I can see how it would probably comfort and please you in some respect if that were indeed so, because then you'd be right (HUZZA! Break out the champagne!) and many, many others would be wrong...but how can you be so sure about it? Your faith that he never existed strikes me as akin to that of a fundamentalist, only the exact opposite way around. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:02 PM Interestingly, it is not possible to post a response without "correcting" the modified thread title, which now contains html code (for the strikethough). LH, Giok and I have each used different approaches to solving this problem. |
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Subject: RE: Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:22 PM "Whom" goes with the direct object. "Who" goes with the subject. The verb is deport, and Jesus is doing it. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:38 PM The quick check is to invert the sentence and substitute he/him. Would Jesus deport he or deport him? Who=he; whom=him. What this proves is that you are all flipping pedants! |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:44 PM "Whom" is a wonderful word. We need to see it in use much more often, I think. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: maeve Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:57 PM To whom shall we direct our use of whom? maeve... perhaps 100 |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:58 PM Whomever you please, I should think. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: John MacKenzie Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:04 PM Whomsoever. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:06 PM Right. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:20 PM NEW BUSH COINS I can never make the "blue clicky" link work. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:20 PM Ohmigod! (oops, sorry, I mean, "Oh my God!", I raided a serious issue and we've being hijacked by picky grammarians who are more interested in showing off than discussing. As for the whole Jesus thing, this issue is NOT about Jesus. I am, as someone noted above, an atheist, I beleive Jesus is a few zillion pieces of dust floating around the deserts of Palestine. BUT, insofar as many Americans consider the Jesus of the Bible to be their model for good behavior, it is appropriate to ask how he might like his followers to handle immigration to the US. Fair enough? I suspect he'd be pissed at deportation folks. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:28 PM Whooooo Hah? Ha ha ha whom diddy whom diddy whom Who ba who ba whom diddy whom diddy whom Who ba who ba whom diddy whom didy whom Whoooo waa-waa-waa Say li'l darling Come and go with me Oh say lil darling Come and go with me Oh lil darlin' Come and go with meeee Whom who ba waaaaaa! (Doowopp fades repeating the Eternal Four Chords (C, Am, F and G) perpetually in the background) A |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:03 PM Don't worry about Rig's ranting against illegal immigrants. After all, it's not as if he believes anything he says. He brings up the spectre of a Hispanic group pushing for giving back parts of the US to Mexico, then when pushed on it, he denies that he believes there is any meaningful support in the US Hispanic community for this crackpot idea. He says he's against illegal immigration, yet will "happily" vote for Hillary, who is pushing hard for Hispanic votes--and there's no question as to current Hispanic attitudes on punitive action toward illegal immigrants. He doesn't mean anything--he just like to run off at at the mouth. He also can't be expected to make sense--after all, he told us in December he was joining the group trying to draft Lou Dobbs for president. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:44 AM . . . hijacked by picky grammarians who are more interested in showing off than discussing. Nah, I think the subject has petered out and we're entertaining ourselves with the myriad leftover bits. (I did see some noun versus the adjective definitions before I posted my remark, but decided the usage, where I encountered on it, was rather on the adjective end of things. And by the way, just because a word was used in a certain way in a certain instance the past doesn't mean it was used correctly in that instance). SRS |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Jan 08 - 01:10 AM Ron - You really need to get some professional help. By the way, did you check out this link? http://blip.tv/file/520347 |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Jan 08 - 11:35 PM Rig-- "...professional help"--still looking in the mirror? You mean to say you do believe in the crackpot conspiracy theory that Hispanics are plotting to give back parts of the US to Mexico?. After all, as I recall, you brought it up. I certainly didn't. Do you believe in it--yes or no? I suppose, that considering the rest of your track record, it's not surprising. Sweet dreams. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Jan 08 - 11:42 PM Rig-- And I'm sorry to have to tell you--again--that links to some splinter group's agenda prove nothing--except that you can link to crackpots on the web. Crackpots, for instance, who might advocate "stamping out" religion, to pick a purely theoretical example. Interesting--people in Oregon have a reputation for being well-educated, aware, tolerant, often liberal. Perhaps there are some exceptions. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:00 AM Ron - The only conclusion I can come to is, whatever ancient superstition you're addicted to is preventing you from ingesting and evaluating facts and information. By your response, I'm left with the impression that you didn't even follow the link I posted up above. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Mr Red Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:05 AM Amos I didn't know Pontius did Pilates, and here's me thinking he was high up in the Roman Air Force. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: bankley Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:01 AM how about deport everybody, then let the descendants of Crazy Horse and Geronimo decide who gets in ? The Lakota are already in the process of declaring sovereignty.... The real Homeland Security...... fighting terrorism since 1492... and Hey-Zeus can go to Palestine on his comeback tour, maybe help out there.. he wouldn't recognize the place... |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Jan 08 - 11:24 PM Rig-- You certainly have a smooth MO: bringing up smears and rumors against Obama, Hispanics or any others of your choosing, then claiming to be "just the messenger". Fine, since you're "just the messenger", I'm sure you wouldn't mind making a clear statement that you personally don't believe in these rumors and conspiracy theories--e.g. the one about Hispanics plotting to return parts of the US to Mexico. Do you believe the group allegedly planning this has virtually no support among US Hispanics--yes or no? ( I do realize that trying to get a straight answer out of you bears a strong resemblance to nailing Jello to the wall.) But for a parallel, you might consider that the idea about returning parts of the US to Mexico has as much support among Hispanics as the idea of "stamping out" religion -- (that is, using force to attain this goal)-- has among secularists. |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 16 Jan 08 - 11:55 PM Ron - I'll try to make these answers as simple as possible: 1. Obama: I cannot recall bringing up any kind of smear about Senator Obama. I do think the "swift boaters" are still out there, and I'm concerned about what they might do in the general election if he's the candidate. 2. "...the one about Hispanics plotting to return parts of the US to Mexico." These people are out there. I have directed you to their collective websites where they've stated that very thing. They have a significant amount of support. The former Liuetenent Governor of California has announced himself to be a former member of MEChA, and during the course of California's recall election--where he totally abandoned Gray Davis and even ran against him--he refused to dis-associate himself from the organization. 3. Stamping out religion is a good idea if we want mankind to move forward and save the planet from destruction. I made it very clear that I wanted the process to be a product of education. I never suggested using force to obtain these ends. I don't think most secularists would want to use force either, looking at the massive destruction that has been caused by religious addicts having used force in the past. Did you have a chance to check out the link provided in the previous post? |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Jan 08 - 12:05 AM Gee, Rig, can't understand how you could have forgotten to actually answer the question. Do you personally believe that there is any significant support among US Hispanics for the idea of returning parts of the US to Mexico? Yes or no? Simple question. Simple answer. Or should I just call you "Mr. Jello"? |
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Subject: RE: Who/ Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 17 Jan 08 - 02:19 AM "Stamping out religion is a good idea if we want mankind to move forward and save the planet from destruction. I made it very clear that I wanted the process to be a product of education. I never suggested using force to obtain these ends. I don't think most secularists would want to use force either, looking at the massive destruction that has been caused by religious addicts having used force in the past." Ooh! I like that. I'm on board. Keep in mind, atheists have done a lot of violent things in the last century, and probably will continue to do so. I'd say let's stamp out ideology, let's seek a world where we humbly recognize that we don't know very much, and that those who disagree with us might not be all wrong, and that'll get rid of lots of religion, and militant atheism as well. All aboard??? |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:36 AM "I never suggested force" to achieve this goal. Anything you say. Never mind that "stamping out" entails force. Perhaps you'd like to make the acquaintance of the English language at some point--your education appears to have been neglected. Re-education is better--another of your suggestions--do we need chapter and verse from your collected works? ( Just as in Germany in the 1930's, Vietnam after 1975, etc.) How comforting. And in your eagerness to smear religion (again), you seem to have left out Stalin, Mao, and HItler (again). |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:52 AM "Do you personally believe that there is any significant support among US Hispanics for the idea of returning parts of the US to Mexico?" Ron - Yes! Look at the facts on the ground. In terms of actual numbers, most field workers probably haven't even thought of it. But if you go to college campuses, and look at the political players, yes, they're all over the place. |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:56 AM "And in your eagerness to smear religion (again), you seem to have left out Stalin, Mao, and HItler (again)." Ron - I didn't leave out those militant leaders. I never brought them up. But keep in mind, Hitler was a great one to use religion to control the actions of people. He even tried to re-introduce Norse Mythology as a way to get folks to cherish their heritage. Of course, he was a Catholic himself, but... |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM With due respect Steve, ideology has nothing to do with the violent crimes committed by Atheists in this century (genocide, democide, and infanticide, for instance)--any more than religion did in earlier times--as with all crime, it comes down to "means, motive, and opportunity"--if you want to want to "stop the madness", you have to break the triangle-- |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: artbrooks Date: 17 Jan 08 - 03:28 PM Oh, come on Riginslinger - most of us have spent time on college campuses, and you know that you can always come up with at least one nutty prof and a dozen or so students to picket or gather together to support any cause...it beats studying. You can also find a few internet sites that espouse any topic under the sun - the Flat Earth Society is alive and well and on the web. Now, I live in New Mexico, which is one of the four states that border on Northwest Mexico and one of the three that had all or part of its territory seized by the US in the Mexican War of 1846-1848. There are a few Hispanics living here - there are rumors that one of them was even running for President of the United States until a week or so ago. Heck, a few of them even speak Spanish. Do they have any interest at all in rejoining Mexico? Not hardly. |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM I think stating the case as "rejoining Mexico" throws the discussion off the track. But I lived in California for 20 years, and a large number of Hispanics I came in contact with there voiced the exact same sentiment that you find on the La Voz de Aztlan website. If you look under MEChA, you will find more than a few chapters. Believe it or not: |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:57 PM "With due respect Steve, ideology has nothing to do with the violent crimes committed by Atheists in this century. . ." M Ted I disagree. Ideology might or might not MOTIVATE the crime, but it sure is widely used to JUSTIFY it. Proletarian pogroms against Jews were justified by the lingo of class struggle, this was the identical dynamic as of Christian slaveowners and the people of Ham argument in the Old Testament, Islamist fanatics and the Koran's passages about revenge on infidels, Zionist radicals and the Mosaic passages about the land belonging to them, etc etc. Ideology sure is useful when you want to classify your selfish urges as a noble response to the call of some higher duty. What, after all, could be more convenient? |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom/What/When/Where/WhyWouldJesusDeport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:01 PM P.S. and how the hell did my thread SUBJECT get edited to where it looks like a joke discussion? Are the Mudcat monitors not on the ball here, or can anyone trash up a topic title any time they want? I'm not around Mudcat much so maybe I"m missing something, but it seems a bit bizarre to me that anybody can come along and edit someone else's work. Grumpy. [Agreed. Perhaps it will now remain as originally composed]
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Who/Whom Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Jan 08 - 09:08 PM Rig "Hitler was a Catholic"--like Father Coughlin was. If you've never heard of him, you should remedy that. Will you ever understand the difference between religion and abuse of religion? Silly question--you dare not, since it will destroy your argument. Back to your other fantasy: The question still is--and it's amazing how in all your wonderfully informative postings, you still haven't found time to answer it: Exactly why should any sentient being believe that there is the slightest chance of any group ever returning any part of the US to Mexico? Or perhaps you don't include yourself in the category of "sentient being." That would explain it. But I assure you that we think you show strong signs of being in that category. Please don't shake our faith in you. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:25 PM Justification--that's right--a convenient excuse--but dishonest, because it is not the real reason for the act-- |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:13 AM Maybe it would be an idea to distinguish between "philosophy" and "ideology." If a person has a philosophy, the implication seems to be that it is some amount of thought and consideration involved in adopting this way of thinking, even though much of it may not be original thinking. To me, the term "ideology" implies more of a blind acceptance of a code that is completely from an outside source. Some religious people are philosophical, and some are ideological - same goes for non-religious people. In general, ideological people scare me - the philosophical ones don't. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Jan 08 - 08:18 AM "Exactly why should any sentient being believe that there is the slightest chance of any group ever returning any part of the US to Mexico?" Ron - The concept is really mis-stated when put this way. In a broader sense, what the La Voz de Aztlan is saying is, they want to take over the American Southwest by occupying it with sheer numbers. It would be a lot like having a conversation with Mike Huckabee about evolution: He would say, "I don't believe mankind came from Apes." And a rational individual might reply, "I don't either, but I think mankind and apes had a common ancestor." And he would counter with, "There you go again, telling me mankind came from apes. Well, I certainly didn't come from apes." At which point the rational individual can see that any future discussion is pointless, and goes on to other things. "Will you ever understand the difference between religion and abuse of religion?" Ron - I think religion is abuse, especially when applied to young children. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Donuel Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:18 PM Rev. Dollar but Jesusis letting Sen G do the work |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:39 PM I haven't been following this thread, but I have noticed that its name keeps changing. What's up with that? A private joke or just someone with an EDIT key being an asshole? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Bill D Date: 18 Jan 08 - 03:13 PM some clone messed with the title...some others fixed it. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM When the title first appeared with slashes in it, I was unable to post a reponse before first editing the newly-revised and then-current title line by deleting the slashes. I had been given a message to the effect that "title cannot include html code." Subsequent resposnses seemed to include various revised/lengthened versions of the title, including slashes. Maybe people put spaces after the slashes, or something, to prevent them from being "read" as components of html code. This thread must finally be dying a natural death, if this is all we have to talk about... |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: M.Ted Date: 18 Jan 08 - 07:05 PM Joe--Your distinction between ideology and philosophy is a good one. I describe the people that scare me as the ones who want me to do something because of what they believe. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 08 - 12:24 AM Rig-- So you finally admit, there's no plan by Hispanic groups to give back any part of the US to Mexico. That's progress. And your latest self-inflicted nightmare is that Hispanics will take over parts of the US just by a higher birthrate. This conspiracy theory is a bit boring--the same was said about the Irish, Italians, etc. As I've already explained to you at least once, it never happens that way. When an ethnic group comes to the US the first generation often has lots of kids. As the second generation gets educated and realizes a higher standard of living comes with fewer kids, they act on that. And it doesn't matter what they hear about "be fruitful and multiply"--self-interest outweighs that. If you'd read a bit of history, your overheated imagination wouldn't make such trouble for you. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 08 - 12:33 AM Rig-- And as far as religion being abuse, especially when applied to young children, that's the sort of calm open-minded statement we'd expect from you. As I've said, I'm not in the least religious. But if I were your child, I'd be tempted to join a fundamentalist church, just to rebel against you. Why is live and let live something you never consider? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:18 AM Ron - If I'm deficient in history, your weakness is geography. Ireland and Italy don't share a common border with the United States. And, the US hasn't grabbed large chunks of their countries over the years. As far as religion is concerned, I guess the only question that remains to be answered is: whose child are you? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 08 - 11:23 AM Rig-- Are you not aware there have been Irish and Italian immigrants to the US? My reference, since it appears to have escaped your giant brain, was to the fact that nativists in the US feared and hated the Irish and Italian immigrants for many reasons including the reason you now cite regarding Hispanics--their quickly increasing numbers, raising the fear that the "native-born Americans" themselves would be soon in the minority. "Hitler was a Catholic." This statement, unsurprisingly, shows spectacular ignorance of history. There was huge tension between Hitler and the German Catholic Church right from the start. Hitler and the Vatican signed a Concordat,--as part of Gleichschaltung-- since Hitler was determined to eliminate any competition in the political sphere. Catholics could maintain their religion in return for refraining from any political action--including defending Jews who had converted to Catholicism. From "Hitler's Pope"--a book which even rabid anti-religious Mudcatters might possibly realize is not a whitewash of the Catholic Church: There was a rally of Catholic apprentices June 8-11, 1933 in Munich--that is, before the Concordat. "After sporadic attacks on individuals by brownshirts during the first two days, the Nazi uniformed thugs organized a series of violent attacks on larger groups on Saturday evening. Catholic youths in their hundreds were beaten up and chased off the streets. their distinctive orange shirts ripped from their backs." "Throughout June, Center Party" (the Catholic party) " deputies and members were subjected to a wave of terror: house searches, arrests, intimidation. In Munich, Fritz, the courageously outspoken Catholic editor of "Der Gerade Weg", was beaten almost to death in the magazine's offices, then thrown into a concentration camp (he was murdered a year later)." Nazi press justification of these and other attacks: "Catholicism aims in every way to sabotage the orders of the government and to work against it". Even after the Concordat: "...Catholicism was under pressure from a variety of authorities within the Reich: Baldur von Schirach, head of the Hitler Youth, was undermining Catholic youth organizations;...the Finance Ministry was investigating Catholic missionary societies for offenses against currency laws...Throughout Germany there were piecemeal attempts to break the hold of Catholicism in schools--from the banning of crucifixes and religious pictures on the walls to the proscription of dual membership in Nazi and Catholic work organizations to the firing of Catholic instructors..." Do you think Hitler did not sanction this? How naive are you? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 08 - 11:27 AM "Fritz Gerlich, the..." |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 08 - 12:07 PM Thanks for the historical insight. There is no question that other kinds of abuse may be more virulent than the kinds covered by Riginslinger's remark, which was deklivered without parameters or qualifications. I believe there are two modalities in which religion IS abuse. One of these is the kind suffered by the individual who is completely swept up in material perspectives, has no connection that he will admit to any realm other than physical energy, space and the body he drives. To such an individual, the notion of spirituality of any kind can be abusive because it is threatening -- it could destabilize his whole worldview, open up more confusions than he could keep up with in his nightmares, and force him to reevaluate all his ethical choices against a standard much higher (if that is the right word) than any he had ever tried to use. This can be, temporarily at least, very crushing and invalidative. By contrast, the OTHER way religion can be abuse is for the individual who DOES have a glimmer of his own spiritual nature, a sense of self that is more than material, a connection with his own creative powers and imagination, a touch of telepathy or other more-than-physical ability. To such a person, being given a model of the universe peopled with power icons and supranormal identities with which he cannot easily connect, or which he has to subscribe to in order to create and then connect with, is destructive, and can induce insanity in various degrees. The middle ground is to find those paths of education which center around self-responsibility and the sovereign right of an individual to explore the universe and his powers in it on the basis of his own say-so. There a huge flood of other kinds of cognitive abuse available in the world for young people from bad education to perverse cultural conventions and brutal peers. Defusing all that is something every child needs as he transitions into adulthood, but doing it with gimcrack beliefs not anchored in his own sense of self will not serve. Some of these things can be worse than arbitrary religious indoctrination, but that is neither here nor there. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 08 - 01:50 PM Amos- I suspect we're just talking semantics here, but my view would be that in both cases you cite, religion itself is not abuse--but it is being abused. It is also possible, it seems, for the individual himself or herself to abuse religion. Religion itself is not to blame, but rather the use to which it is put. Similarly patriotism, socialism--or even secularism--all of which can be and have been abused. For instance, I would say that advocating either "stamping out" religion or "re-educating'' away from it is abuse of secularism--and nothing a rational person would promote. It is up first to each family and then to each individual how they look at religion--and nobody should seek to coerce anybody else---which is clearly implied by "stamping out" or "re-education"-either towards or away from religion. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:11 PM Semantically you are differentiating between the philosophy of religion versus its practice and organization and cultural form, and it is true of almost all religions that these two things can be very different and even diametrically incompatible. However, the very doctrine -- for example the Nicean Creed -- can act as a real stunner when fed to an unsuspecting, trusting soul who could otherwise discover the world for himself. The kind of re-education that needs to be emphasized is the right and ability to sort out one's own truth and voice in these matters . As far as the young are concerned, it does not matter whether enforced "realities" are laid onto him by family or neighborhood or peers or authorities from some temple or cathedral nearby -- when such data is enforced on a viewpoint it is a suppression of his ability to know things. Any culture -- familial or regional or tribal -- that engages in the practice of enforced indoctrination in spiritual matters is being, to one degree or another, oppressive. Even the kindest interpretation of Christian guidance can spin a poor boy's skull when he starts trying to deal with metaphysical entities and supernatural claims but is not allowed to make up his own mind about them. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:41 PM Sorry, Amos, I must demur. "A poor boy's skull" usually knows how to deal with the Nicene Creed, and how much weight to assign to it. And "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"--while basically an unattainable ideal, is a useful counter to inborn selfishness. If you think there is religious brainwashing of children going on in Sunday school, consider how many stay brainwashed--precious few. Adolescent rebellion and their own reading are far more powerful influences. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Mo the caller Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:08 AM Well I'm not a Christian, or am American, and I haven't read most of this thread. But 'Jesus' could miraculously simplify the issue with free food and healthcare, it is not so simple in the real world. I do agree though, that the Christian Right should not be less compassionate that liberals and the Left. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM Even the "Christian Right" is not quite as fiendish--or clueless in addressing problems--as pictured here. After Katrina, many churches, which would no doubt be placed on the "Christian Right" by the omniscient Mudcatters we are graced with, provided much assistance--food, housing, etc. to victims of Katrina. And did it much more quickly and efficiently than either the federal government or the Red Cross. One of the serious problems they do have is a contradiction between "rights of the unborn" and lack of concern for the child after birth--except in extraordinary circumstances like Katrina. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:12 AM Right. In the case of Katrina, they could do something that made them "feel good," which is what they're all about, and they knew a lot of other folks would see them doing it. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:22 AM Rig-- Spare us your drivel, Mr. Sour Cynic, once, if it's not too much trouble. There are actually,--not always but sometimes--people, even--gasp--religious people, who do the right thing, since it's the right thing. Obviously that doesn't include you--no surprise there. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 21 Jan 08 - 11:35 AM While I agree that nobody would ever realistic expect that the US would return the land stolen from Mexico or even pay them for its current per acre value, I often use that possibility in order to make a point. When some one starts bitching about illegal immigration from Mexico, I'll say that before we should talk about deporting one single Mexican we should give them back California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and most of Nevada and Colorado since we stole it from them in an illegal war of conquest. It doesn't often change their opinions but it sometimes shuts them up for a minute. As a character in a recent movie said: "I didn't cross the border, the border crossed me." There are many Mexicans living in my region (NE Ohio). They work hard, obey the laws, mind their own business and spend their earnings in the local businesses where they pay sales tax, which as far as I'm concerned is more than their fair share of the tax burden. They do not measurably effect the local unemployment rate. Maybe we could use more of them contributing to our historically multi-cultural society. Neil |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 08 - 12:14 PM The concept of an "illegal war" is something that takes getting used to. On the other hand, the way we use the term now, if Congress did declare war on Mexico in--was it 1849?--does that make it a legal war? Anyway, the fact that those wars happened at all is what folks like La Voz de Aztlan use for ammunition. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 21 Jan 08 - 01:09 PM Okay. How about "aggressive,unholy and unjust" or "Feculent, reeking Corrupion" or "one of the darkest scenes in our history-a war forced upon our and the Mexican people by the high-handed usurpation of President Polk in pursuit of territorial aggrandizement of the slave oligarchy." These are some examples of contemporary views of the war. Neil |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM Well, I guess I can't argue with any of those. I suppose it shouldn't be so difficult to stand around and watch them take it back. It is, though, for some reason... |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:00 PM Well. it's a bit like Israel. After all the improvements we've put in place, you'd think the cost basis would have gone up. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:03 PM Arguing the relative merits of a war that took place over 160 years ago is an exercise in futility. This was long before the innate superiority of the Anglo-Saxon Race became to be assumed, and contemporary military tacticians were not at all certain that a US victory was assured. After all, Mexico had a larger professional army and had fought a victorious war against another military power (Spain) much more recently than had the US. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: PoppaGator Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM Right. In the case of Katrina, they could do something that made them "feel good," which is what they're all about, and they knew a lot of other folks would see them doing it. What a load of crap! There was and is a lot of hard work to be done, and not every local property-owner is able to participate in the recovery, due to age, disability, poverty, exhaustion, abandonment by insurers, etc. When a group of strangers shows up to help, it's a real blessing. Even if some volunteers may be acting from motives that are not purely selfless, the effort they have been making has produced real, measurable, and highly necessary results. Stay-at-home critics, on the other hand, haven't helped anyone. Take it from an up-close-and-personal witness: Churchgoers of all denominations have made enormous contributions to the home-by-home reconstruction of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. While government at all levels has succeeded at little more than fingerpointing and profiteering, much of the real and necessary work has been and is being performed by serious and devout individuals who came together in their local churches, and who very often secured funding from larger church organizations (dioceses, synods, etc.). Plenty of goodhearted secular people have been doing the same kinds of things, but churchgoers are much better organized and thus able to bring themselves to town in much larger numbers. While there are multiple churches in virtually every town and city, similar local assemblies of freethinkers are pretty rare, and therefore have been less of a presence in our local "voluntourism" phenomenon than have church groups. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:15 PM Okay! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: artbrooks Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM Very true, PoppaGator. When I was sent to Rexburg, ID as part of the Federal relief party after the Teton Dam burst in 1976, one of the things that amazed me was the effort put forth by the Mormon Church. They sent hundreds of volunteers up from Utah and these people cleaned the city up, one block after another, removing mud and debris from yards without any consideration being given to church membership. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM Another obvious advantage of churches in addressing an emergency like Katrina--yet another aspect which appears to have escaped the towering intellect of some critics of religion--is that the churches are right there--close to the scene of the disaster. No huge logistical problem actually getting to the place where they can do good. Not that said critics of religion can be expected to recognize reality. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:14 PM Hey, Poppa: Organized groups of people setting out to do some good int the world? Why would anyone argue with that? I don't see that the religious part is a prerequisite, though. If there were that many centers of the Society for Ethical Society, they mought well do the same thing. But you do point out one of the most positive side-effects of organized religion in this country. They CAN mobilize for good. It is unfortunate that in the last decade, many of them ALSO mobilized for not-so-good. For example, electing Bush, and heating up the anti-immigration argument, defaming Kerry, and so on. So it's a mixed bag, but I am agree about your point regarding volunteers for Katrina. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM Actually, it was the "religious wrong" who championed the cause of the politicians who caused the disaster in New Orleans (Ronald Suirtgun, George Dubbya, Newt whatever his name was). These folks purposely denied funding to the Corps of Engineers so the levees could not be repaired and updated. War and a peace time military buildup was more important. Of course, this allowed the church goers to run out into the water and act like heroes--or maybe even saviours. But it didn't provide them with enough intellect to allow them to feel guilty. Even if it had, though, forgiveness is always just around the corner for those folks. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Jan 08 - 11:20 PM Give it a rest, Rig. "the church goers"--one unified--villainous group. "Hispanics"--another unified-- villainous--group. Etc. What you remind me of more than anything else is a Bush voter--always black and white--incapable of any distinctions whatsoever. Rig vs "the evil-doers"--just like Bush himself vs his "evil-doers". And the built-in group smear for your opponents--again just like Bush. Are you sure you're not a Bush supporter? Manichean (look it up)--- to the n th degree. And therefore not remotely aware of the real world. So probably not worth the time of a thinking individual. Only problem is your absurdities are so blatant, the target is too juicy. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM Ron - There might be a couple of holes in your analogy: If I'm a Bush supporter, why would I villify "church goers," Bush's largest cheering section? If I'm a Bush supporter, why would I oppose Hispanics? Bush has been actively trying to smuggle as many illegal Hispanics into the country as possible, hoping to drive the wages of hard working Americans down even further. And the "good vs. evil" thing is a Christian concept out of the gate: Teaching buffoonery in the classroom is a good thing--Teaching science is a bad thing. Bringing a brain dead fetus to full term in a good thing--Aborting an organism that will never even know it's alive is a bad thing. You might want to look up the definition of--Absurdities: |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: GUEST,Steve Baughman Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:04 AM So glad to see that we're still thinking about a compassionate immigration policy. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:54 AM Yes, we are. The only question to answer is, a compassionate immigration policy for whom? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Wesley S Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:12 AM Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door. Ah - THOSE people |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:31 AM HERE IS A DESCRIPTION OF THE WORKING POOR CITIZENRY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. "...tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free,... wretched refuse of (our) teeming shore... the homeless, (and) tempest-tossed,..." |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:35 PM " Bush has been actively trying to smuggle as many illegal Hispanics into the country as possible, hoping to drive the wages of hard-working Americans down even further." Well, Rig, nobody can say you're not creative in your conspiracy theories--your "Conspiracies R Us" chain is what they call a "category killer"--you cover the waterfront. Nobody else has a chance. Bad luck for some of your Mudcat competitors. And your entertainment value soars higher with every posting. Gee, it seems the only things missing are sense and logic. And, by the way, since you're such a strong supporter of Hillary, what makes you think she won't "smuggle" at least as many in--by pushing for a path to citizenship for illegals? If not as a candidate, then for absolute sure as president. And how are you coming in your campaign to draft Lou Dobbs? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:32 AM "And your entertainment value soars higher with every posting." Well thanks, Ron! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:41 AM "Who Would Jesus Deport?" Oy. He's working for the Department of Immigration? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:41 PM Well, I did read where they were having trouble getting recruits, because the federal government was sending all the qualified candidates to Iraq to be shot at. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM Regarding the Iraq invasion: Who stamped all those passports? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:53 PM Good question! What happens if the government of Iraq decides to starte exporting illegal aliens? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM AND, where the hell was customs? You know how difficult it is to get weapons on planes? Pretty lax security on someone's part, I'd say . . . . |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM No question! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Slag Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:14 PM I have resisted, until now, even looking at this thread, but well, here I am. Riginslinger of Oregon... This may not include you but in general Californians get a rather chilly reception in Oregon. You get the definite feeling that if Oregonians could close their border to Californios, they would. SB: Do you lock your doors? I would guess not. I would suspect that what is true of the whole (of your philosophy) is true of the part (your personal life). So people can just drift in off the street and sleep over in your casa? Help themselves to your food? Without even asking? Take a little here, a little there because someone back home NEEDS it? OK. If that works for you... My real concern is dragging deity into argument. Whom would Jesus deport? This assumes much. There are spiritual borders that cannot be breached. His heavenly Kingdom is open to any and all who will come and enter in through the proper doorway. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father but by me." He also said "Whoever comes unto me, I will in no wise cast out." which answers your original question. Those who are there legitimately, i.e. by the blood of Jesus, will never be deported. On the other hand he said "He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. Jn 10:1 and "The thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill and to destroy" Jn 10:10 Thanks. Just wanted to clarify Jesus' position in this. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:20 PM Well, you did not succeed. As so often in such arguments you left out a great deal of highly relevant quotations on the theme of tolerance, compassion, generosity, and the like. Ignoring those and selecting out a sanctimonious and righteous, but narrow, interpretation about the select acceptable ones versus the abandoned many does, IMHO, a great disservice to any appeal his reputation might have to those not already in his precious flock. You know why? Because you make him sound like an elitist bigot with no grounding in human compassion. So does your image of hypothetical people acting as mooches and sponges without contributing anything. Just wanted to clarify my position on the picture you just painted, there, Slag-me-lad. No hard feelings. A |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM "Riginslinger of Oregon... This may not include you but in general Californians get a rather chilly reception in Oregon. You get the definite feeling that if Oregonians could close their border to Californios, they would." Yes! For a long time I tried to promote the idea of blowing all the bridges on the Klamath and Smith Rivers, but I couldn't get much of an audience. Now, we have been overrun with Californians who refuse to pay property taxes, refuse to vote in a sales tax, and send most of their money out of state. These are mostly retired people who still think Ronald Reagan was wonderful, whose children are grown, and whose grandchildren live some place else. As a result, the libraries are closed, all the county revenue is spent on law enforcement, and the public schools are on life support. All of this translates, for those of us who have been paying attention, like this: beware of anybody coming in from the south. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Slag Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:56 PM There we go! Got it going now. Re my quotes, so read the whole Book yourself. I'm not going to copy it onto the 'Cat for you. The Book of John alone would be adequate to get a good feel for Christ's position. Hey, and they crucified Him for His view on things. I'm in good company. Remember, He said it. I was merely quoting it. Yes Rig, those border towns like Klamath are real iffy. Crossing the frontier, all those Oregonian troops marching in array. I don't know how long this can go on. They'll be drafting old men down here before long. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:22 PM Rig-- I'd just like to know why you support Hillary so strongly when, as I pointed out, she will "smuggle in"--as you put it-- far more Hispanics than Bush ever has. Doesn't compute. Also, how is your campaign to draft Lou Dobbs coming? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:20 AM Ron - I don't support Hillary so strongly. I was only commenting that I think she has the best chance of getting elected in the general election. As far a smuggling in Hispanics, I think the growing recession and the growing rift between blacks and Latinos is rapidly taking care of that. Regarding the drafting of Lou Dobbs for president, that was some other organizations hope and dream. And while I think it would be very good for the country, Dobbs has said he is an advocate, not a candidate. He's probably right about that. Many people make good advocates and poor candidates. Al Gore comes to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:23 AM "They'll be drafting old men down here before long." Slag - I don't know where your are, but Bush has sent all of the Oregon troops to Iraq. California has been sending all of their old men to Oregon, and they refuse to play, so the whole thing has just become kind of mindless. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Slag Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:12 PM 54-40 or fight! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:37 PM Sorry, Rig. You should check your own postings more often. You said you could "happily" support her. Do you need chapter and verse from your own collected works? Interesting, considering that she's completely on the other side of the fence from you on immigration--as I noted, she will "smuggle in" far more immigrants than Bush ever did. Tends to make your rantings rather hollow. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM Ron - As I've noted, the Republican's have already solved the immigration problem by plunging the country into a depression. They did it with Hoover, they did it with Reagan, and they've done it again with Bush Junior. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ebbie Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM I'm on my way out to music so I haven't yet read all this thread but I do want to address this: Riginslinger, Jan 11 2:39, wrote, "What happened was, many people who couldn't get health care in some other place moved to Oregon and swamped the system." At 3:36 Jan 11, Stilly Sage, relying on Rig's perception, wrote, "... Oregon just didn't get it right or was in the wrong position when they put it into play for it to work. Don't blame illegal aliens and the poor for the Oregon failure." My question, Rig, is: Why then is The Oregon Health Plan this year signing up more than 2,000 people per month to bring the system up to the 30,000 budgeted for? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:14 PM Ebbie - I didn't mean to imply that the blame for the failure falls at the feet of illegal aliens. The people who came were largely from other states. There were not illegally in the country. And you're right - Oregon didn't get it right. They should have seen this eventuality coming to pass. The were trying to do something to help the people of their state, and maybe they simply weren't worldly engough. They had the best intentions in the world, and they should be commended for their efforts. And, yes, they are still trying to make it work, and they are still signing up new clients. But the workload has become very taxing, the deductables have gone up to the point that one young family I talked to had to pay their own expenses from January through September before they were finally able to take advantage of the benefits. So that left them with three months of benefits out of the year. One of the main problems with all of it are large political players from out of state who sponsor ballot initiatives that limit liability for taxes of one sort or another, and starve the public agencies for resources. I don't like these people, for what it's worth. I'm sorry I didn't state the situation more clearly in the beginning. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:40 PM "...sponsoring ballot initiatives...". But people evidently are voting for these initiatives. Why? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM What's happening in Oregon is, some group will come in from out of state with an extreme right-wing agenda and hire signature gatherers and get some tax cutting measure on the ballot. Then they begin an advertising campaign with huge war-chests that the opponents can't hope to duplicate. In addition, in the same election, the same group will hire signature gatherers to put something on the ballot that will attract great numbers of the "unthinking," like a gay marriage initiative, or something to do with abortion. Witch doctors across the state will, of course, encourage their unthinking hordes to go out and vote against the gay marriage/abortion measure, and, at the same time, they will be prodded to "by the way, while you're there, vote in the tax cutting measure." It's unclear what the witch doctors and their unthinking hordes get out of all of this. Of course, they're tax exempt, so anything is possible. One can only conclude that they hate poor people. Young couples and single women with small children are the ones who are hurt most by all of this. And, of course, that makes people who think really, really angry. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:06 PM What happened to the Oregon of thinking, tolerant, liberal people? They would not be signing such petitions. Has the whole state of Oregon turned into Orange County, CA? And I don't believe that Orange County has moved en masse to Oregon, and all the Oregonians have left. There must be more to the story. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jan 08 - 01:31 PM Ron, you're right about the electorate having changed, with a large number of retired people moving in from Southern California. The thinking people of Oregon do, in fact, not sign such petitions, but it only takes a certain number of signatures to get these issues on the ballot. Then, once the issue is on the ballot, the public is bombarded with wall to wall advertising from the well funded, out-of-state trouble makers until the election is over. Oregon, as you can well imagine, is not a very expensive media market, especially everything south of Eugene. So their money goes a long way compared to places like New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and California. Portland is a little more spendy, and they usually lose in the more densely populated areas of the state, but all they need is a majority state-wide to win. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 26 Jan 08 - 02:51 PM Sorry, Rig--your record in giving an objective look--at anything--is, in a word, abysmal. I look at absurd statements from anywhere on the spectrum and try to discern where the truth lies. You always have at least one, and maybe a pack of villains to blame for any real or imagined outrage. And often you have been proven wrong. If I have time, I will do some of my own research on the issue of recent Oregon politics. I somewhat doubt I'll have time. But I strongly suspect there is another side--which we'll never hear from you. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ebbie Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:05 PM Ron, you are right: There is a GREAT deal more to the Oregon story than what Rig is relaying. (By the way, I begin to suspect that Rig is in southern Oregon, an area that has a distinctive oder to it.) Let's just say that his hyperbolic use of facts only superficially resembles the truth, thus skewing the credibility of his conclusions. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:21 PM Ebbie - Yes, I am in Southern Oregon. I don't think you read what I wrote. Do you sign the petitions to stop gay marriage, curtail women's rights, and cut programs for the needy? |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ebbie Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:56 PM No. And yes. I did. You figure out the order. :) |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jan 08 - 07:05 PM Well, I suspect if we trimmed off a bunch of excess rhetoric, we could probably communicate. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 08 - 06:18 PM Rig-- You'd have to close your "Smears R Us" chain and go into another line of work. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:30 PM Ron - I am not smearing anyone. The whole process is a matter of public record. Here's how it works. 1. Somebody with a lot of financial clout and a political agenda comes to a state like Oregon from some place else. 2. The last few times I've seen in happen, they have been promoting an agenda to cut taxes, severely, like Grover Norquist, though it wasn't him who was here. 3. They hire signature gatherers to collect signatures on the petitions. Recently, Oregon passed a law mandating that they cannot pay the gatherers on a "per signature basis" like they used to, but they still pay them. 4. Along with the petition to cut taxes, they will have a petition that will target one of these other issues: (a) gay marriage, (b) abortion, (c) prayer in the school--that will extend to nativity scenes at Christmas and etc. (c)teaching creationism as science (d) the right to display the 10 commandments on public buildings. And I think there are a few others. 5. When I go down to the post office to get my mail on any given day prior to an election, these people will be out side, sitting in folding chairs behind little tables. And they will have both petitions. They will have both petitions. They will try to get everybody coming out of the post office to sign both of them. 6. Once they have enough signatures to get their issues on the ballot, you think they would go away. 7. They don't. 8. The reason they don't go away is because they want to look sincere, they want the pedestrian traffic to think they care about the issues, and they have an idea that those individual signers have something invested, and they want to remind them of that. 9. They not only want to make sure these people come to the polls, but they want to make sure they vote the proper way on each of the initiatives. Ron - This works. The county I live in had to close its public libraries last year. The local school district is having to combine elementry classrooms and shut down schools. You think I'm cynical? I really don't like these people and I wish my county had one little tiny fraction of all that money that's been wasted in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ebbie Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:55 PM Incidentally, as to whether it is 'whom' or 'who': He who would Jesus deport Must first acknowledge his existence. :) |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Leadfingers Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:26 AM I reckon he would deport the sort of people who look for chances to 'do' hundredth posts |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Leadfingers Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:27 AM 200 ! |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM Sorry, Rig. Ebbie has a somewhat better record of credibility than you do, to say the least. I still suspect--rather strongly, I'm afraid--that there's a totally different side to this issue --a side we'll never hear from you. |
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Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport? From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 08 - 11:50 PM Ron - Check the thread. Ebbie didn't say anything about it. Aside from that, what other side could there be? This isn't an "issue," I'm just reporting what happened. Believe it or not, Mr. Ripley. |
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