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'English Country Dances', Please
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Subject: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:44 AM As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 06:06 AM And? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: The Borchester Echo Date: 25 May 08 - 06:13 AM . . . and eCeilidh. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 06:43 AM And, Volgadon, it's good that we now accept the imperialism of some of our forebears was wrong; but it's bad that we are turning more-and-more away from our own good English cultural heritage, which includes ENGLISH COUTRY DANCES, or eECD, thanks, Diane. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Compton Date: 25 May 08 - 06:43 AM I think that's a bit sweeping, Walkaboutsverse, I go to Ceilidhs in England....and not many many like it to be calloed English Country Dances.....in fact anything but!! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Caller Date: 25 May 08 - 06:46 AM What are you on about? Is this the start of another massively long thread? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 07:01 AM And that's the problem, Compton - my late Godmother told me that at her English school they did learn one or two Scottish dances, BUT at least 90% of what they danced was, indeed, English Country Dance; and, when I mentioned the Scottish Gaelic word "Ceilidh", she had no idea what I was "on about" (Caller). And thread-length is not the issue - restoring our own good English culture and values is. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 07:54 AM It, "Walkaboutsverse", was booted down into the BS section, Poetess - and, in case you're interested, currently involves discussion on free-verse and Vogon poetry. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 May 08 - 08:01 AM Nothing wrong with the British Empire, when the sight of a British gunboat put the fear of god up trouble makers. Yes, we would always do English Country Dancing on Empire Day at school. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 08:14 AM I don't like any imperialism, Bonzo, but I agree with you in some respects. Poem 212 of 230: REMEMBER THEM? Back when we became defenders (We have plainly been attackers), Defenders' blood, sweat and years Were paid to keep a good home-way - A way yet to be part stealth-blown, As mass immigration gained-sway And as we slipped as maintainers. From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: purple dinosaur Date: 25 May 08 - 04:24 PM 'English Country Dances' a) is a bit of a mouthful b) sounds odd in an English (especially rural) context, and c) has connotations of patrician urbanites playing at being peasants. These days, 'ceilidhs' happen in England, & are mostly jolly (preferable to ECD's!)...Down here, indeed, the word has taken on a life of its own! Must admit to being uncomfortable with the Gaelic spelling, as I understand the word has a different significance in a Scottish or Irish (esp. Gaelic/Irish-speaking) context, so I tend to write the word 'kaley'. e.g. 'Wishing I was at a kaley in Chippenham....' Barney |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Chris P. Date: 25 May 08 - 05:03 PM The term 'English Country Dance' refers to the particular form of a dance, in the same sense as Polka or Waltz. Usually by the end of the 18thC it was longways. You once did this at a Ball, Hop, Dance or in the kitchen or the mud. In France you may have done it at a Bal. You didn't do it at an 'English Country Dance' any more than you did a Polka at a polka or a Foursome reel at a foursome reel. But a 'dance' could refer to the actual event, and everyone would know what they were going to. If you go to a dance now it could be anything, hence the very recent requirement for a further definition. So it has become customary in England to use the (not stolen, as they haven't been alienated) terms ceilidh/eceilidh to mean a dance where you may expect not just lively ECDs, but Polkas, Waltzes, etc, and have some good fun. This will be understood to be a different sort of event from a Country Dance or a Dance 4Dancers. Wherein lies your point/problem? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:07 PM And would your kaley/English Country Dance have mostly/all English dances and tunes, Barney?..as with my late Godmother and Bonzo, above. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 May 08 - 05:20 PM So how many other currently used English words should be abandoned? What's the English word for pyjamas? or curry? or caravan? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:26 PM It seems not long ago, McGrath, it definitely was English Country Dance - mouthful or not. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 05:39 PM WAV, you seem to like this source, you quote from it all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Country_Dance |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Howard Jones Date: 26 May 08 - 04:33 AM The term "ceilidh" in its modern English sense began to emerge at about the same time, but independently from, the English country music revival. Then and now, it defines an attitude rather than a particular type of music or dance. Just as eskimos have many words for snow, in the dance world the word has specific connotations. Both a ceilidh and D4D may include English Country Dances, but the style in which they're danced and the approach of both the dancers and musicians are very different. For those who care about such things, the terminology provides a shorthand code which lets them know what sort of event to expect, and whether or not it's for them. For those who don't, like WAV's godmother, it's all just snow. Simply referring to "English Country Dance" does not convey the same information about style and approach. Was "ceilidh" the best term to adopt? It does sometimes cause confusion, especially for expat Scots who may turn up in kilts, but on the whole its English meaning is now generally understood. Back then, the word was already in use, and it gradually adapted to acquire its current specific meaning in English usage. We were less concerned about such cultural niceties back then, and we didn't have the benefit of WAV's deep experience and profound wisdom to guide us. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 May 08 - 04:42 AM What does the phrase "Barn Dance" convey? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 04:45 AM The information was from my LATE-Godmother, RIP, Howard, and when she went to school in England, English folk music, song and dance were common in most schools - rather than in just a few rural schools, as now, sadly. For English Country Dance we should not use a Scottish Gealic word; just as an Italian should not be telling us how to play out favourite sport. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Compton Date: 26 May 08 - 05:27 AM Actually. I don't dislike English Folk Dance...which curiously is the name of a small organisation I once heard of! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 05:36 AM SOME ENGLISH DANCES English Country Dance, Clog Dance (Lancashire/Cheshire, Durham/Northumberland), Step Dance, Morris Dance (Cotsworld, Molly, Border, N.W. Clog Morris), Yorkshire Longsword, N.E. Rapper, Maypole Dancing, Helston Furry Dance (Cornwall), Great Wishford Grovely-Day Dance (Wiltshire), Whalton Baal-Fire (Circle) Dancing (Northumberland), 'Obby 'Osses (Cornwall and Somerset) From davidfranks.741.com |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 05:52 AM Some English dance*S*. Obviously not an event. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 06:20 AM To Volgadon: Compton had just mentioned "English Folk Dance", so I gave a list, with English Country Dance atop; but from what I've heard, the Sidmouth Folk Festival is one "event" where folks do indeed get quite a few of them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Marje Date: 26 May 08 - 06:33 AM A ceilidh is not a particular dance, it's an event. No one ever called such events "English contry dances" - this referred to the individual dances, not the occasion. I think old usage would probably just have been " a dance"; during the mid-20th century revival, such occasions were often called "Barn Dances". More recently, a bit of a split has developed between "Folk dancing" (as practised by EFDSS) and "English ceilidh" which is looser, livelier, more energetic, and often includes more non-English dances. No matter what your late godmother used to call her dances, WAV, there are now dances called ceilidhs in England. I was at one on Sunday. It wasn't called an "English country dance", it was called a "ceilidh". QED. Pity about the crazy gaelic spelling, but there you go, English is full of words from other languages. We'll cope. Marje |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 06:48 AM But there is this recent trend in England, Marje, and I don't like it - the African American way of worshipping is better than our old English way, Asian food is better to go out for than English food, Swedes and Italians suddenly know more about football than us, we use the Scottish word for a country/barn dance, etc. As an apple cart, modern England needs upsetting - it's gone too far. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 May 08 - 06:50 AM I'm with the People's Front for Inglish Kaylee Dancing on this one. Don't be misled by those in the People's Front for English Kaylee Dancing, EI, EI O yes. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 07:04 AM First of all, it shouldn't matter where the way you worship comes from, it should matter if you feel that it is God's (or the Gods') way. I think I'm catching echoes of G&S (for he himself has said it, it's greatly to his credit) as well as the Padre in Farrell's the Siege of Krishnapur. Second, most traditional English fare isn't terribly exciting. Eating it at home is one thing, but for going out, Asian food is funner. Besides, this is no new trend, English cuisine has been affected by Asia for over 500 years. Thirdly, English has thousands of loan words. Last, but not least, ECD reffers to a style of dancing, not to an event. Read Georgian and Victorian literature, they never GO to an ECD, but they do dance them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 07:11 AM I love the world being multicultural and I want English culture to remain a part of that, and English country dances to remain a part of that - I just enjoyed watching and listening on Saturday, at Hexham, in fact. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 07:20 AM But they are being danced, WAV. You can insist on calling the actual even an ECD, just be aware that it is NOT a traditional title by any means. BTW, what is the year you judge English culture by, I mean the cutoff year. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: CupOfTea Date: 26 May 08 - 09:22 AM Would it scandalize the English purist to know that English Country Dance is cherished over here in the colonies? It's my soul dancing, part of my ethnic heritage, and my musical love. Ceilis here (US Midwest) tend to be dances within the Irish or Scottish ethnic enclaves. "Set dances" are taught at Irish centers, but we're not so lucky to have "English centers" as a parallel, havning to make do with CDSS dance camps as the closest approximation in the US. It's difficult to see our English Country Dance group here dwindle with age, and have a hard time attracting new dancers. I think that joy of the specialness of this one group of dances, with it's rich history is something that needs...something... to inspire a wider range of enthusiasts. Our group tried to have some sort of tie-in when the local professional theatre presented the play of PRIDE AND PREJUDICE. We got nowhere in offering dance coaching, nor putting flyers for our dances out at the play, or even any reassurance that the dancing in the play would be near accurate. In the general folk music community, a "barn dance" can mean a whole range of dance styles: English Country Dance, New England style contradance, New England style or Southern style or Western style squares, circle dances/mixers. Some will be specificly a square dance or a contra dance, but if you do a variety of 'em you tend to see the same folks at the whole range (as well as a random polka dance or swing dance or waltz dance) Anyrate, if you've got some specific good ideas in how to promote the traditional version of English Country Dance, particularly to the young who could be carrying this well to the future, I'd be delighted to hear it! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 09:48 AM Your second last paragraph sounds correct to me, this afternoon, CupofTea - with barn dancing being of a wider range than English country dance. I had little interest at the time, but I think it was American square dancing that I learnt at high-school in the suburbs of a rapidly Americanising Sydney, Australia. Offer free scones and tea to re-fuel the dancers..?! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 May 08 - 10:05 AM "just as an Italian should not be telling us how to play out favourite sport. Which Italian would that be? I take it you mean "grumbling"... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Howard Jones Date: 26 May 08 - 10:06 AM WAV. I understand your point about borrowing a gaelic word, but as several others besides myself have pointed out, "English Country Dance" is not synonymous with "Ceilidh", even in its modern English usage. Over more than 30 years "ceilidh" has acquired a meaning in England which is rather different from its original Scottish one, and it's probably a bit too late to try to introduce another word now. Besides, borrowing words (including some from gaelic - take "whisky" for example) is one of the great strengths of the English language - something I should have thought you were in favour of. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: greg stephens Date: 26 May 08 - 12:24 PM Personally, I call such events barn dances. But I have no problem with ceilidh.Nothing wrong with having two words for the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 12:52 PM They say that repetition is the mother of learning, so let's repeat it once more for WAV. ECD is not an event, but a style of dance. I think you'll find that it is 'untraditional' (if you'll pardon the phrase) to go to an event and dance just those. As Chris P. said, you would dance a bunch of different things. Dances used to be one of the most important social functions, one of those few occasions when you could interact fairly freely with members of the opposite sex. An evening of nothing but ECD would get monotonous. Also, different dances offered different interaction. With your boasts about distinctions in undergrad. anthropology, you should know that social context is all important. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: CupOfTea Date: 26 May 08 - 02:20 PM ahem " An evening of nothing but ECD would get monotonous. " I vastly disagree. If you've got an inept prompter or a dull program of dances, you can evoke monotany, but changing style or nationality of dances is far from the only way to have variety. Even with less than stellar bands, there are yet a goodly range of feels to the dances that can make for a varied and interesting program. If one is ever given the delight of dancing to an evening of English Country Dances with Bare Necessities, that alone would show how absurd the above quote is. I've danced to them several times;the feeling of being carried into the dance by the music is bliss. You seldom get bored by bliss. Just sayin. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 02:35 PM Well would you look at this....... Energetic Ceilidh Dancing in England No ceilidhs in England? HA! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 02:43 PM but it's bad that we are turning more-and-more away from our own good English cultural heritage Is this the most militant WAV thread yet I wonder? Lots of dancing in Blackpool this weekend; we went So when are you going to settle with the reality of the modern multi-cultural UK, WAV instead of persisting with this twisted bilious risible vision you have of English cultural heritage? And what the fuck is Heritage anyway? To me, heritage is the old pit-wheels sited on the verges & greens of long-redundant colliery villages that escaped the D-list, or some other such corporate schlock which no one gives a shit about other than some patronising council types trying to give something back to the community. Things either is or they ain't, and those who dance can do whatever dance they want to do, presumably. Where's the problem with that? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 02:44 PM WAV said just as an Italian should not be telling us how to play out favourite sport. (smacks of racism to me) I presume you mean "our" and who is this our you speak of, and a small point, the Italians play football some much better than the English |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 02:46 PM Yes, DS, no ceilidhs, please, we're English!...love national differences. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST Date: 26 May 08 - 02:49 PM WalkaboutsVerse, You're really fucking a lot of people off here, and you're acting like a fool. Which year do you wish the English tradition to stop at? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 02:55 PM ...should it be compulsory to log-in to post a "comment"? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 03:00 PM WAV, once again said"...should it be compulsory to log-in to post a "comment"? My answer? No And WAV said " Yes, DS, no ceilidhs, please, we're English!...love national differences.' you really are a nasty racist little man, and I'll take celidhs among other sorts of dance, I believe in multiculturalisim in England, and that's the way it is these day, fortunately. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 03:01 PM no ceilidhs, please, we're English Well we are anyway WAV, whereas you're a naturalised Australian bigot with precious little idea about what English culture is actually about. Above anything else, we're a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural human adventure - all aboard for the mystery tour! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 03:07 PM "Welcome, My Friends, to the show that never ends, step inside, step inside, step inside..." |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 03:38 PM No Sedayne, insisting that I'm Australian is, rather, bigotry - I was born here, all my known forebears were born here, I've lived here about 15 years now, I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I practise English hymns and songs, enjoy watching English folk-dancing, etc., AND do love our world being multicultural. (Australia is a nation I'd like to VISIT, but I am English, thanks.) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 03:44 PM WAV said (again) No Sedayne, insisting that I'm Australian is, rather, bigotry (I know ALL about that) - I was born here, all my known forebears were born here, I've lived here about 15 years now, I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I practise English hymns and songs, enjoy watching English folk-dancing, etc., AND do love our world being multicultural,except for England of course, which should stay completely English, no multiculturalism wanted here, thank you. Here endeth the lesson. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 04:02 PM I watched on Scottish Gaelic TV, just the other day, a programme where Gaels were discussing the visit of Alan Lomax; and one comment made was that he seemed to help Scottish culture in that, before his visit, it was standard in Scotland to sing from an Oxford book of ENGLISH folk songs. I agree, that's a good change, but if an Englishman says suchlike, as I just did, he has to put up with the B-word and/or the R-word. We should be more proud of our own good English culture - WITHOUT being imperialistic about it, this time. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 04:11 PM well in your case the words Bigot and Racist (let's name those names and never mind cute litte initials) are appropriate. Don't you dare tell me I'm not proud to be English, what I'm also proud of MY England as it is in the here and now, complete with all its multicultural aspects |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 04:27 PM I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I practise English hymns and songs, enjoy watching English folk-dancing 1) Most real English people, whatever their ethnicity or country of origin, couldn't give a shit about any of the above. This doesn't make them any less English. I know Americans who know more about English poetry, folk-dancing & folk song than I do. Does this bother me? Not in the slightest, because like most real English people I regard folk as a barely significant aspect of English Culture; an enrichment to the few perhaps, but I can go for years without crossing paths with another folkie in real life. 2) I didn't say you were Australian, WAV - rather that you're a naturalised Australian, and all that entails culturally and personally. I have no problem with this of course, nor do I have a problem with you being here, but I do have a problem with your persistent pontificating on subjects you have no understanding of whatsoever and your resolute unwillingness to learn anything beyond your entirely erroneous & risibly simplistic conclusions. For fuck's sake man - live and learn! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 04:39 PM WAV might be familiar with this excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta ('an excuse that has not been sought is an obvious accusation', or 'he who excuses himself, accuses himself'—an unprovoked excuse is a sign of guilt in French ( I DO love multiculturalism :-D) qui s'excuse, s'accuse |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 05:01 PM Above I meant that Gaels had mentioned a book of English folk-songs being standard in Scottish SCHOOLS before the visit of Lomax. Sorry for that omission but, following swiftly on from the B and R words, we get the "pontificating on subjects you have no understanding of whatsoever" type criticism, found on many a thread by now - so, again, I refer you to my blurb, in my defence. And if someone in Scotland did indeed say it's good they no-longer have to learn at school from a book of English folk-songs, would Sedayne and DS use the same language against that person? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 05:12 PM There he goes. passing his guilt off onto others, and the answer's no, because they have, if you like cast off the chains of English arrogance. Is England about to cast off it's arrogance? I'm not holding my breath. You know what, I don't use books of English folk songs either, I don't practice from Ye Olde Booke of Hymmes Anciente and Moderne, I don't read widely from anthologies of English verse, I don't enjoy watching English folk-dancing (I much prefer to actually participate) and , of course, as I've said elsewhere, tennis bores the arse off me. Does this make me and any less English than others? Not in the slightest, and your 'more English than thou attitude' is REALLY beginning to get up my nose. Here Endeth The Lesson ;-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Malcolm Date: 26 May 08 - 05:26 PM Funnily enough the Chippenham Folk Fest has just finished, with LOADS of English - and American - and Anglo-American - and French etc dancing. I wonder how many on this thread actually dance. English folk dancing is going strong but, in practice, is largely danced by older dancers. Doesn't mean they're not active, or not good dancers. Most clubs IMHO seem to dance a variety of styles but with the accent on English. If different, it's usually clear in the club name. Barn Dances are English but try telling that to the Yee-Hah! brigade for whom cowboy hats and check shirts are de rigeur. Probably just ignorance, but still cringeworthy. Hence, perhaps, the current use of ceilidh. (Do the French have a word for de rigeur?) In England a ceilidh is usually a barn dance. "English ceilidh" is a coded version, which makes it explicit that it will be an energetic, bouncy English style of dance. Usually with all ages present. Steamchicken were excellent at Chippenham and the Committee Band were pretty good too. That's how it is. But - I dance two to three times a week, mostly in an English style - I have never seen an offer to attend - or do - English Country Dance. Funny that. Must be the trolls dancing. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 05:43 PM I refer you to my blurb, in my defence. WAV - it's your blurb that's at fault; seriously. By all means set it down as a polemical blog, but to assume any of this carries any objective currency is just ridiculous. On the contrary, it just underlines how little you know & understand of any of the subjects you pontificate on. I note that you appear to have deleted your earlier published comments on the perils of same-sex parenting; if I were you, I'd follow suit with the rest of it. Personally, I would seriously worry if I thought any kids had to learn at school from a book of English folk songs, especially English kids, but that's just me. It would be as ultimately pointless teaching them about railway modelling or bird watching; just another minority hobbyist irrelevance to the mainstream entirety. God knows kids have got enough to deal with at school as it is without filling their heads with that shit as well. In my day singing folk songs was considered subversive; I nearly got expelled for singing Lucy Wan in the playground once because it freaked out some fourth years... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 05:46 PM To quote myself. I don't enjoy watching English (folk/country/whatever you want to call it) dancing (I much prefer to actually participate)so....put that in the ring and dance to it :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Ed Date: 26 May 08 - 06:20 PM I nearly got expelled for singing Lucy Wan in the playground Me thinks that you are exaggerating somewhat.. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 06:28 PM Me thinks it's a big possibility that Sedayne is not exaggerating at all. There's always someone somewhere, even in the playground who'll complain about anything, or get totally freaked out. The lyrics as most probably know are not exactly a song from a Walt Disney film, so I could see it happening |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 26 May 08 - 07:45 PM POEM 1 of 283: Kippled Irritated by the crumbs of confusion The rhinoceros Scratches his soft skin and Wraps himself into his comforting Shroud of certainty |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Sarah the flute Date: 27 May 08 - 04:07 AM Well I grew up in the West Country and in my yoof there used to be frequent posters up around the villages for a Barn Dance....and it was just that a dance in a barn - usually a disco or some local rock band! Sarah |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 04:21 AM Me thinks that you are exaggerating somewhat.. Lucy Wan is one of those songs that takes no effort to learn; hear it once and it's in your head, tune and all. I first heard it when I was fifteen, circa 1976, and sang it to a bunch of mates at school by way of exemplifying that folk could be just as dark & subversive as anything else, punk especially. This was proved when one of said mates, a somewhat nervous fourth year, got so freaked out by the nature of the song she told her class tutor who reported it to the head who called on me to give account. The head took serious exception to the nature of the song, despite me sourcing it to The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, a copy of which I had about my person, thereafter confiscated , necessitating I acquire another. I admit this wasn't an isolated incident - theft, smoking, truancy, wilful vandalism... it all adds up, but for one moment back there it seemed that I was to be the first person suspended for singing a Traditional English Folk Song. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Compton Date: 27 May 08 - 04:53 AM Anyway, good on yer, WAV...at least you got us talking about English Social Dance....which keeps it showing on the map! (it's a bit sick but not quite dead!) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,JM Date: 27 May 08 - 05:01 AM NO!! Not "good on you". Don't let this man co-opt all the good stuff that goes on into his own agenda. English traditional dancing of all forms is far from dead, but it is a changing and evolving tradition. Who cares what its called? Who cares if its true to some imagined ideal of the past that never actually existed? I only care that it be kept away from WAVs grubby politics... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 05:13 AM Thanks, Compton, generally my repatriation is not going well, frankly, but one good thing is that my presence (participating, watching, arguing) on the folk-scene is not bad for numbers. To Sedayne - I read your posts, as usual, but you do seem a bit confused about the value of books on English folk songs, such as your Penguin. And saying that my studies in humanities, including anthropology, has no relevance to these matters is also a bit silly, in my opinion. And, no doubt, some of the English reading this have organised "ceilidhs"...why not be a devil and put "English Country/Barn Dance" on your next pamphlet/flyer, and see what happens..? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 05:20 AM but one good thing is that my presence (participating, watching, arguing) on the folk-scene is not bad for numbers. you do seem a bit confused about the value of books on English folk songs Please clarify. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 06:13 AM It's just this minute occurred to me - a memory of being called upon to design a poster for a Ceilidh in the Blackhall Mill community centre in the summer of 1983. So out comes my crayons & my copy of George Bain's Celtic Art: Methods of Construction & I set to work with the appropriate lettering & everything turns out just splendidly. Then I think - this was 25 years ago, and by no means the first ever Ceilidh to be held on English soil either, but a Ceilidh nevertheless, with young & old & newly born in glad attendance, with all manner of dances from reels to Strip-the-Willow, with a few songs and maybe a story too. I then reflect that the babies from back then will be in their mid-twenties now, carrying at least a notion of what a Ceilidh is & maybe even passing it onto their own children already. So, a decade on from that halcyon summer our hapless repatriate fetches up on these shores after his long swim from the Antipodes (how else might I interpret eco travel on a shoe-string budget?) and begins his mission to persuade the English people that everything that they've held to be true hitherto has been wrong all along; that they have purposefully misled their children with their imperialistic spoils, despite the fact that many of them, myself included, were of Irish & Scots descent anyway. Hmmm. More need for ethnic cleansing here I reckon, WAV old fruit - sort out this wretched confusion once and for all. Hardly the wonder your repatriation isn't going well; you're in Rome for God's sake - so do as the Romans do! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 06:26 AM From listening to a ceilidh on Scottish radio a few monhts ago, I think the description you just gave is a good one, Sedayne - but Scotland is not England, a-few-years-older-than-I-fruit! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 06:37 AM Joanne in Cleveland, your's is a devotee's opinion, quite welcome to it. I still think that if you had frequent barn dances where all you danced was ECD, you'd get sick of it. WAV, what is the cutoff date for English culture, the date that it became set in stone and incapable of change? For all your dreams of lawn tennis, it surpassed in popularity a very English pastime- archery. I think one of the Plain Tales from the Hills mentions this. I'm sure you could find some 1880s WAVs croaking that this newfangled game of French origins is ruining good old English culture. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 06:54 AM WAV's not watching the French Open (the home of Real tennis as opposed to Lawn tennis), Volgadon, because it's raining at Roland Garos. Critics often mention cut-off points for English culture, and evolution/change, when it's mainly a case of REPLACEMENT: i.e, if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard. And, as for English, French and archery, I'm not going to give a one-fingered-salute! Yours sincerely WalkaboutsVerse |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 07:35 AM Perhaps this piece of poetry will clarify my stance... Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis, Line is fine BUT so is Morris, There is curry AND there is the roast, And, when England is playing host, It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish To sense culture that is English. From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 07:42 AM but Scotland is not England Indeed, they are but geographical & political regions of the United Kingdom with any amount of common ground in terms of culture and humanity, as the one thing bleeds into the other by dint of both history and proximity. Personally, I regard the differences as enrichments to the commonality which is far greater & more complex than your somewhat myopic vision on such matters might presently discern or give you right to comment upon. Once again you attach too great a significance to folk culture, which is perhaps too conveniently national for your grubbily divisive ends. The majority of people, however, are elsewhere entirely, reaping the benefits of the global village whilst quietly consigning their traditional songs & dances to the museum in which they belong. Even those who value the various aspects of folk culture acknowledge that they are but a tiny minority who do so out of a very particular passion that is most assuredly the exception that proves the rule. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 07:49 AM As we've agreed! before, Sedayne, we are both economically Left-wing but, somehow, you find a way to defend monarchism...? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 27 May 08 - 07:55 AM WAV asks "Why not put English Country/Barn Dance" on your next pamphlet/flyer, and see what happens..?" Because to those in the know, "ceilidh" conveys specific information about the style of dancing and music. In England, a "ceilidh" may include English country dances, along with those nasty foreign imports such as polkas, waltzes and schottisches that our forebears were misguided enough to enjoy. Calling it a "ceilidh" indicates that these will be danced in a certain way, and the music will be played in a certain style. A "Folk Dance" or "Country Dance" may involve the same repertoire of dances and tunes but the styles of both dancing and playing will be different. "Barn Dance" is so vague that it could be anything, but will usually encourage punters to arrive with stetsons and cap guns. These distinctions may be lost on the general public, but for folk dance enthusiasts these semantic differences enable them to tell in advance what to expect. Like it or not, after being used in this way for at least 30 years, "ceilidh" is now part of the English language, in the same way as other borrowed words like whisky (Gaelic), bungalow (Hindi), or alcohol (Arabic), to give just a few examples. Why do you have a beef (French) with that? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 08:08 AM To HJ: when at a folk do, I've often heard folks mention the next ceilidh - but never an English Country Dance (which ties in with what Malcolm said above). However, I repeat, why not be a devil and advertise an English Country Dance and see what happens..? Perhaps the tide is turning, and English are getting a tad more interested in their own cultural heritage again...it may pay off..? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 08:15 AM The only thing I'm defending, WAV, is people's rights to be what they are where they are, and when they are, without having their humanity defined according to their National Costume or, God forbid, folk music. I'm also speaking as one brought up on the English / Scottish border with strong cultural & familial connections to both countries, not some Johnny-Come-Lately who's only lived here for 15 years. Anyway - go back to my earlier post of 5.20 and please respond. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 08:20 AM WAV, there is nothing new with the phenomenon of 'going out for an Indian' (to put it one way). Eastern and Asian influences on English cuisine have been enormous. Tea, a tradition picked up from the East. Kidgeree, mulligatawny, Worcestershire sauce, all adaptations of Indian cuisine. Then come things like coronation chicken, dishes influenced by the East. Curry, as a spice, owes as much to Britain as to the Indian subcontinent. Hannah Glasse, way back in the 1740s, included elements of Indian cooking, or what she thought was Indian, in her cookbook. Curry appeared on menus in Haystreet in the 1780s and in the early 1800s, Dean Mahomet opened the first Indian restaurant in Britain, to serve faux Indian food which would appeal to those who had served in India. The main reason it failed was that they brought back their own chefs to cook Indian food!!!! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 08:24 AM I can't be any more clear on 5.20, Sedayne, sorry - and, besides, you just did a do-si-do on my monarchism? post! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 09:01 AM I know a bit about Israel, where you are from, if my memory serves me, Volgadon, and would not mind a visit one day...but, frankly, nowhere near as much as you know about England. Mind if I ask...? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 09:04 AM I can't be any more clear on 5.20, Sedayne, sorry How so? Just because I ask for something more than an ambiguous aphorism? This is one of the problems here, WAV, and one which gives the lie to your academic claims - you say things and resolutely refuse to back them up or else clarify just what is you mean when asked to do so. - and, besides, you just did a do-si-do on my monarchism? post! I'm a political & cultural pragmatist, WAV - there's lots of opinions in the world, but truth remains, as ever, elusive. This seems to me the only absolute, so when it comes to opinions I tend to pass, especially on so emotive a topic as the Monarchy, which has precious little to do with the political realities of life in 21st century Britain other than providing a few more faces for the celebrity driven media spectacle to gawp at. That said, Diana's death seemed a very significant watershed as far as such things go; the mass outpouring of grief was a truly transcendent cultural experience. So again, it's nothing so straightforward that it can be boiled down to your simplistic outsider view of a culture of which you're neither a part, nor of which you have demonstrated any clear understanding. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 09:13 AM "Mind if I ask...?" Mind if you ask what? If you mean why do I act like I know a bit about England, I've been to England more than a few times, have several close friends who are English, have grown up on English telly, love English books and history, of course I'm not English, despite my ancestry. I'm not setting myself up as an expert. IIRC, you stated on a different thread that you have been to Israel. Now it kind of sounds like you are saying that you haven't. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 09:26 AM Thanks for answering that, Volgadon,...it was only curiosity and I'm still here; but I never said I've been to Israel (apart from, on second thoughts, changing flights, apparently, upon my family's emigration from England to Aus., when I was 3). |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 27 May 08 - 10:00 AM a memory of being called upon to design a poster for a Ceilidh in the Blackhall Mill community centre in the summer of 1983 Sedayne's memory stirs one of mine: what was advertised as "Croydon's Christmas Ceilidh", tunes supplied by the Albion Dance Band, at my old school in nineteen seventy...something. A friend of mine had talked his way into helping the band set up during the day (which involved Free Beer!), & I'd talked my way into hanging around with my friend until he told me to piss off (which, remarkably, also involved Free Beer!). Unfortunately, this means that I've got no recollection of the gig itself, as by the evening I was completely bladdered on London Pride. Bladdered in quite an active and sociable way - or so I was told afterwards - but bladdered nonetheless. Anyway, I do vaguely remember one or two people saying "Christmas what?", but I'm sure most people were already familiar with the idea of a ceilidh - in Croydon, in nineteen seventy-thing. Sub-topic: date my ceilidh! It was at Christmas (hence the name), I'm pretty sure it wasn't earlier than 1974 or later than 1976 and I'm reasonably sure it was the Albion Dance Band who performed, although I don't remember whether they played vielles rackets nakers ect ect. (I don't remember whether they played, if it comes to that.) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 10:06 AM ...either way, Phil, from 2008 on - Croydon's Christmas Country Dance, please. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 27 May 08 - 10:28 AM That's magical thinking, WAV - you say the words and lo! the world changes. Doesn't really work like that. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 10:35 AM completely bladdered on London Pride Perfect! Is there anything quite so splendid as being bladdered on London Pride in any sort of folkish context? Must admit, I've never been able to take my folk entirely sober; before we left Durham we used to attend The Durham City Folk Club singarounds which fetched up eventually at The Shakespeare where I selected London Pride as my pint of choice because it was the name of my favourite morris tune. Aka Idbury Hill, of course, I play London Pride on pipe & tabor and use it as the melody to Rudyard Kipling's Puck's Song, but my source for this tune is The Battle of the Field by The Albion County Band, which is perhaps the finest slice of Folk Rock ever realised, in this country anyway, which also furnished me with I Was a Young Man, Hanged I Shall Be and The Gallant Poacher, all of which I still sing. Only later did I hear 'Dancing' Jim Wetherspoon whacking it out as part of Badger in the Bag's Green Man' Morrice (Buddle Arts Centre, circa 1980 - see HERE for the full story...) and I'm sure I've still got an old Folktracks cassette of a chap playing it on pipe & tabor too. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 10:37 AM ...an ocean - and even a pint, Phil - is made of many drops... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 10:47 AM I'd like to hear your pipe and tabor, Sedayne - probably the original Morris accompaniment, yes? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 27 May 08 - 12:12 PM True, but you can't make a pint of honey from drops of vinegar... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 12:22 PM WAV as usual, "either way, Phil, from 2008 on - Croydon's Christmas Country Dance, please." No thanks I prefer Christmas Ceilidh, it's far less wordy |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 12:31 PM You could visit Scotland for a week or two, DS, and take in their Hogmanay, as well. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 01:08 PM I could choose to spenfd the festive season where I choose to spend it, and call an event what I choose to call it, and not kow-tow to your nationalistic nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 27 May 08 - 01:16 PM I'm privileged to be able to reveal WAV's master plan: 1. Go on Mudcat and irritate as many people as possible. 2. [illegible] 3. English tradition is revived! Unfortunately I couldn't quite make out the second stage, as you can see. Can anyone help? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 01:16 PM It's our Hogmanay too, WAV - complete with Black Bun, Shortie & Auld Lang Syne, the world o'er, in fact; a fine Scottish export, as with so much else, and welcomed, assimilated, part of our collective souls - like the Scots themselves in fact: see HERE. Half the people I know in Scotland are English; and most of the Scots I know actually live in England. So what do we do with them I wonder? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 01:29 PM As I've also said here, nationalism with conquest IS bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 01:38 PM What is eco-travel? Anyway, apologies, I misread a previous post about travel to Israel. Still, this sounds like a recipe for pockets of MONOculture. "Critics often mention cut-off points for English culture, and evolution/change, when it's mainly a case of REPLACEMENT: i.e, if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard." Do you HAVE to sing something just because it's yours? Culture is not a monolith, it's something broad and general, behind it are people and I think people have every right to sing things which speak to them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 01:39 PM I would also say that nationalism is bad if it equals ARROGANCE. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 01:47 PM WAV said "but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity, in my opinion. " None of this makes any no sense at all. What does eco-travel have to do with nationalism? Indeed what does fair trade have to do with anything? The UN? a completely toothless and useless tiger with little or no relevance whatsoever in these days. Mind you. for what it's worth, I've always felt that about the UN. The links to your so-called poetry are totally wasted on me. It is my humble opinion you can't write WAV, to my way of thinking is a huge fan of monocultures, each country in the world has its own culture with no overlap from any other, most especially in England (No multiculture here please, this is England). Right, I'm going to listen to Yasmin Levy, I think! :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 01:56 PM Yasmin Levy!!!! Good taste. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 27 May 08 - 02:05 PM Yes! Yasmin Levy, although the cross pollination in her music might be lost on WAV! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 02:11 PM Eco-travel is often synonymous with Volgadon's favourite phrase - shoestring travel: overland as much as possible, hitchhiking for adult males, etc. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 02:17 PM I blame Ian A Anderson for introducing me to Yasmin Levy and Natacha Atlas, via the latest issue of fRoots, but I went out a bought a CD of each artist. Yasmin Levy leads me into further exploring the medieval Ladino/Judeo-Spanish songs, not very English (:-D), I know, but I've always been fond of exploration. Natacha Atlas sings in Arabic, Hindi, English and French and includes diverse elements such as folk, drum & bass, Parisian vaudeville, R&B, ambient dance, pop, rap and film music. Gawd, it just occurred to me, WAV isn't going to get any of this :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 02:18 PM did you say adult males...add sexist pig to WAV's credentials |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 02:32 PM That's silly, DS - if you cared, you wouldn't encourage a female to hitchhike would you? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 27 May 08 - 02:41 PM I sure would WAV, depending on where. Ultimately if you are hitching, you make the final decision-you don't like the way someone looks who slows down, run. My sister hitch hiked in Egypt, by herself, and had no problems. I picked up a female hitchhiker from France when I was in Ireland once, and we had a great time chatting, and btw, she never felt threatened, and told me as such. That really is a bold statement to make. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 02:45 PM Sorry WAV I was hitchhiking around Europe and The Middle East when you weren't even a gleam in your father's eye (you appear to forget I am somewhat older than you), and your reply to me is the perfect example of your nasty patronising attitude towards the women on these threads, well guess what? If nothing else did it, this did, put us in oppostite corners, bad move Wav.... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 02:50 PM What about females playing tennis, WAV? Anyway, quoting your own tired & specious rhetoric isn't an answer to my point about Scots living in England and English living in Scotland, or anyone choosing to live anywhere else other than the place of their birth. Fact is, there isn't an answer because your entire concept of cultural purity is complete and utter bollocks & doesn't work on any level whatsoever. Not only is it bollocks, WAV, but it's an absolute insult to those who have chosen to live where they do, and put down roots, er, much as you have over here, and much as your parents did when they moved to Australia. I note the recent caveat in your opinion, which is a good sign on the whole but what's the use of opinions if they're so completely unworkable & disrespectful to humanity as a whole? Not so long ago (see here 08 Jul 06 - 07:07 AM) you were arguing against same sex parenting. This seems to have vanished from your central on-line manifesto, but that could be a tactical withdrawal rather an admission of error. Ditch the hoo-hah, WAV - life's too short & humanity too diverse; accept, respect & for Christ's sake just chill - summer's here, the fish are jumpin' & the cotton is high... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 27 May 08 - 02:52 PM Actualy, I'm with WAV on this one. Hitch hiking is very common in Israel, but I feel uncomfortable when my girl friend or any of my female relatives hitch hike. I'm sure that most of the time nothing would happen, but you never know. If a girl is with someone else it's a lot safer, but I would strongly advise against doing it alone, ESPECIALLY in the Middle East and Russia. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 02:53 PM and the livin' is easy..... George Gershwin (American you know...:-D) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 02:55 PM That somone sure as hell wouldn't be WAV, in my opinion, and I'm speaking of over 40 years go in my case. Now I've found other paths and roads to explore, mostly musical. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 03:22 PM As I've said on my myspace Blog, Sedayne, I'd rather females play table-tennis, as lawn tennis puts too much strain on the racket-arm. However, I'm quite happy for the next Archbishop of Canterbury to be a female. As for your "same sex parenting" query, I stand by what I've said in poem #88. Also, some of you are slipping into recalcitrance, I feel. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 03:30 PM You'd rather have females stay in the kitchen, I think, so cease your sexist prattling, if I was ever driven to play tennis (which thank the lord I'm not), I would, and never mind your stupid nonsense. Same sex parenting.... I fully support it, a loving family is a loveing family regardless of the gender of the parents |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 27 May 08 - 03:42 PM I'd rather females play table-tennis, as lawn tennis puts too much strain on the racket-arm. I'm sure Lindsay Davenport and Amelie Mauresmo et al would have something to say about that. As for your "same sex parenting" query, I stand by what I've said in poem #88 In this, dare I say, as in the rest of what you write about, you've got no experience too, right? Also, some of you are slipping into recalcitrance, I feel An online dictionary defines recalcitrance as Marked by stubborn resistance to and defiance of authority or guidance. Might I rest my case, o recalcitrant one? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 03:46 PM .....are slipping into recalcitrance... Oh and now WAV sets himself up a some sort of authority. You self-righteous, pompous arse. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 03:48 PM He is an authority on nothing except himself and his godawful poetry and his racist nationalism cloaked in a so called love of all things English. WAV your comrades at the BNP, the ENP and Justice for England must be very proud of you. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 27 May 08 - 04:09 PM Let's go back to thread here, upon looking at this again.WAV, you have chosen not to comment on Chris Parkinson's excellent post from two days ago regarding your um....question....statement, whatever it was. I suggest you read that, as his point is quite valid. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 04:17 PM Racism, DS, is where someone says they are all like this or that - which I have never done. I've never heard of the ENP - I'm not a member of any political party, but I was once contacted by the English Democrats who also promote "positive nationalism". Sorry I'm not sure who it was, but somewhere on mudcat someone mentioned falling into a WAV said it/it MUST be wrong trap - that's roughly what I meant by "slipping into recalcitrance". On the other hand, Sedayne, very critical my, mentions playing the tabor and pipe, and I remark the truth that I would like to hear it - at least trying to be reasonable and frank. To DS: are you also happy with the idea of the next Archbishop of Canterbury being a female? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 04:18 PM Irish, thanks for pointing out Chris P's post. His point cannot be argued with, it's short, sweet and very much to the point. I await with bated breath for WAV's answer. I'll sit and knit if you don't mind. WAV I'm knitting an Arran sweater, not very English I know, but my granddaughter did make a special request :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 04:39 PM Re: Chris P - yes, my title could mean dances as events, or the variety of English country dances that may be danced at any given event. But it seems from my late Godmother, and others on this thread, that such terminology was used and understood until about 30 or years ago. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 04:48 PM You meant this thread title as the event, NOT the dance itself. Nice attempt at weaseling You said: "As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances." and as Ia nd others have said, we have ceilidhs (the event)as well |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Ed Date: 27 May 08 - 04:51 PM So what your 'late Grandmother said' constitutes rigorous academic research? Oh dear... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 04:53 PM For someone who allegedly has a degree, his research is sadly lacking/non-existent Chris P's question "Wherein lies your point/problem? " remains un-answered |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 27 May 08 - 05:02 PM Def Shepard, that's because Chris P's question presumes a certain level of actual dance experience and knowledge, on the part of the respondent. Apart from bandying a few terms around, probably harvested from Wikipedia, WAV clearly doesn't really understand the distinction between the various types of English dance, how they developed, how they attract different kinds of participants, etc. But he's still here to teach us all... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 05:07 PM I wonder if we might direct WAV's attention to the EFDSS site, Ruth? But there again, THAT might also be a total waste of time.'late Grandmother said'is probably far more reliable than Wikipedia, from which I can quite well believe some of WAV's terms have beem lifted (ooops sorry, harvested :-D ) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 05:09 PM I'll tell you, Ruth, I wish I had an eighth of Chris Parkinson and John Kirkpatrick's dance experience. Every day in every way I'm still learning (can you say that WAV?) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Agnes Mirren Date: 27 May 08 - 05:16 PM This here Mr Walkaboutsverse knows nothing about English country dance, probably never danced in his life, unlike dear Mr John Kirkpatrick with whom I had the pleasure of working, some years ago. Jump at the Sun |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 05:24 PM "As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances."...Okay, DS, for clarity, please add the word "should" - and others on this thread have agreed that we DID, until about 30 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 27 May 08 - 05:29 PM And thanks for using "English country dance" Agnes, rather than the Scottish term "ceilidh", or the Irish term "ceili". |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 05:31 PM I add nothing to what I have said, WAV, so dream on, and "others on this thread" have agreed to nothing of the sort, so cease and desist with your attempts at divide and conquer and yes we have ceilidhs in England, try reading instead of cut and pasting, do your research, and STOP invoking what your dead relatives believed, it's NOT viable research! Personally I agree with the poster, Guest, Agnes Mirren. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 05:34 PM I believe Agnes Mirren used the term for the dance, not the event, so quit trying to use other people to "prove" whatever point you're trying to make. (I'm waiting for the pin to drop) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Agnes Mirren Date: 27 May 08 - 05:40 PM Thank you for reminding me, Mr Walkaboutsverse, ceilidh is good term as well, I see it on a number of announcements and posters for such events. The delightful Mr. Kirkpatrick (who knows far more than you, Mr Walkaboutsverse) uses the term ceilidh in the following, the rest maybe found on his website. "Mr Gubbins' Bicycle is John Kirkpatrick's five-piece ENGLISH CEILIDH BAND, using the name of a tune he wrote many years ago after buying a bike from a certain Mr Gubbins! They play English tunes for English dances in an English style." (CAPITAL letters are mine) As you can see, Mr. Walkaboutsverse I can cut and paste every bit as well as you :-) |
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Subject: Date my ceilidh From: Phil Edwards Date: 27 May 08 - 05:56 PM No apologies for the attempted semi-hijack - I thought it was more interesting than the main topic of this discussion. I saw the Albion Dance Band play a ceilidh at Trinity School Croydon, at Christmas... 1974? Fits best with my other (vague) recollections, but seems a bit early for the ADB 1975? 1976? Seems a bit late (I hadn't caught on to punk by Christmas 1976, but I'm fairly sure I'd stopped wearing the shirt I remember wearing* that night) Christmas 1975 seems most likely, but I'd prefer it to have been 1974. Any thoughts? *It was a memorable shirt. It was printed with a 'Dougal'** motif and had flared sleeves. I wore it a lot. Sometimes close friends pretended they weren't with me. **The dog. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 06:02 PM I decided to do a small search to see if the term ceilidh is being used at ENGLISH folk festivals, and sure enough the Chippenham Folk Festival are having a number of CEILIDH bands performing. Hmm it seems that the term is being used a fair bit; isn't it? Time to get with the programme me thinks WAV :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Sue Allan Date: 27 May 08 - 06:12 PM (sorry, seem to have wiped my cookie in attempt to clean my computer) Since WAV is always unwilling to accept that styles of song, dance or terms for the same evolve over time, and always have done, and refuses to address Chris Parkinson's eminently sensible points (made from a love and deep knowledge of that which he speaks) - would it not be better to agree, and accept, that WAV is only here to wind everyone up and boost his own ego ... and just IGNORE him? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 27 May 08 - 06:15 PM So, according to the rules of walkaboutsverse, volume 979, stanza 12, or what have you, where does someone like Michael McGoldrick fall in to your equation of Englishness? Born in Manchester, but with obvious Irish heritage. Is he Scottish when he plays with Capercaillie? Is he Irish when he plays with Lunasa? Is he English when he plays with Kate Rusby? If he plays at a festival does he have to produce a passport for what country he is representing? Oh that's right, no of course not, because that's all bull-he's just a damn fine musician capable of playing with anyone. See, you just don't get it-applying rules to what you feel is proper English music, or even, what the proper name of a gathering of dance music should be called, you're not just missing the boat, you're missing the departure date, along with your ticket. Your rigid guidelines have no reasoning whatsoever. Yes, you can sit back and think, oh I wish I were in the England of 100 years ago, it would have been so much nicer. But, its 2008, you can't. You can't change the way music evolves, you can't change history, you can't change what you perceive is wrong with a music form that has thrived and will thrive without you. Lord knows what you think of The Imagined Village, just the kind of multi-cultural band that on the one hand, you should profess to admire for what they have done, but on the other, revile because it doesn't stick to artificial rules that you think apply. When I think about all the rules you govern yourself by, as to what this or that should be called, I just say to myself, sad, very sad. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 06:17 PM Sue, he strikes me as being a teribly lonely person, who could best use his time in actually researching the subjects he claims to know about. I'm still waiting patiently for his reply to Chris Parkinson's question a reminder: Chris P's question "Wherein lies your point/problem?" |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 27 May 08 - 06:19 PM To use a VERY good English term, WAV, you, me old china, are batting on a VERY sticky wicket! :-D and it's goodnight from her! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,E J Thribb Date: 27 May 08 - 07:45 PM POEM 2 OF 285: FOR NOEL EDMUNDS Pink and yellow creature with sand filled bottom Bounces back to its upright position With the same inane look and vacuous response As when I punched it last time However hard I hit you won't you ever lie down? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 28 May 08 - 03:50 AM What it boils down to is this: we have a word, "ceilidh", which has been established in its current English usage for decades (I can vouch for it being well established in the early 1970s). It is known even outside the folk fraternity as meaning a folk dance event. Within the folk world, it has additional layers of meaning which convey the types of dances, style of dancing and style of music to expect. It's a useful word. WAV doesn't like this word because it has been borrowed from another language. However the strength and flexibility of the English language comes from its willingness not only to invent new words but to borrow from other languages - the dictionary is full of such words. I can see where he's coming from, and if this discussion had been taking place before "ceilidh" became established in the English language I might have had more sympathy with his point of view, but the fact is that he's at least 40 years too late. This horse has long bolted. Not only does he want us to stop using a single well-established word which has a specific meaning, he wants to replace it with three words which already mean something entirely different. And with respect to his godmother, her experiences of doing "English Country Dances" at school in, at a guess, the 1920s or 30s tell us nothing about the actual live tradition, then or now. Whatever her adult contemporaries were doing on Saturday nights in the village hall, I'd lay money they didn't call it an "English Country Dance". |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 28 May 08 - 10:19 AM I thought it strange that his godmother was called Howard - but perhaps I misread that post. >>The information was from my LATE-Godmother, RIP, Howard.... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 28 May 08 - 10:29 AM Surly Howard has said it all and very clearly? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 11:13 AM I agree, Les: at least Howard was accurate - but I disagree with him (and Tony Blair, e.g.) that there's no going back to past ways; Blair, born in Scotland, also said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...oh, yes we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 11:26 AM So he was accurate in disagreeing with you? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Veronica N. Footprint Date: 28 May 08 - 11:27 AM Ever wondered what became of the Molecatcher's Unplugged Apprentice? She vanished in suspicious circumstances on the 15th of May, the same day as Def Shepard first appeared. Could they be by any chance related? Watch out for those trolls & shape-shifters, Walkaboutsverse - creatures of darkness the lot of them! Veronica |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 11:54 AM Will do Veronica, thanks. To IE: Yes - but I added that we can and should re-establish the English country dance (instead of the ceilidh, which has largely, quite recently, replaced it). I, by the way, mainly via satellite, probably enjoy Scottish music as much as most of you - BUT we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background; and, as I've said here, when people lose their own culture, society suffers. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 12:07 PM a 'guest", read those who will not take responsibility for their posts, says of me. 'Ever wondered what became of the Molecatcher's Unplugged Apprentice? She vanished in suspicious circumstances on the 15th of May, the same day as Def Shepard first appeared' Come out in the open and face me instead of hiding behind an obviously fake name. You obviously won't do that will you? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 12:26 PM No we don't need nationalism, that's another thing wars have been fought over, and quite frankly it's simply not worth it, and I don't care WHOSE nationalism it is. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 12:28 PM WAV, please find one documented instance of the event being called an English country dance. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 12:39 PM To Volgadon: my late Godmother told my they did "English country dancing" at school. Or read this. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 12:42 PM Now this is interesting Cambridge University English Country Dance Club This Might Be Useful English Country Dance is a social dance form. That's easy to remember:-) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 12:44 PM English country dance is the dance form. the ceeilidh is the event at which English country dance is, perhaps, performed |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 12:49 PM They danced ECDs, they didn't go to an EVENT called an ECD. They went to a 'dance', or a 'barn dance' and now are going to 'ceilidhs'. I showed you that wiki link way back at the start of the thread. It says that ECD is a dance form, not an event, so insisting on calling events ECDs is silly. Now find me a source that says that the event is called an ECD. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 28 May 08 - 12:59 PM "we can and should re-establish the English country dance (instead of the ceilidh, which has largely, quite recently, replaced it). I, by the way, mainly via satellite, probably enjoy Scottish music as much as most of you - BUT we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background;" WAV - what are you on about, exactly? Where have you got the idea that E-Ceilidh is about Scottish music? E-Ceilidh IS English dance. Yes, it uses a caller - which doesn't even come from the Scottish tradition (where, as in Ireland, there aren't callers) - it was adopted from the American square dance craze in the 50s. This is to make the dance form MORE ACCESSABLE to people (like yourself, I expect) who may not know the dances but who would like the chance to join in. Dancing (mostly) English dances to (mostly) English music played by (mostly) English bands. E-Ceilidh has been a shot in the arm for traditional dance in England - it has revitalised the form, attracts loads of youngsters as both musicians and dancers, and is a feature of pretty much every festival I can think of. Can you explain what is un-English about this as a concept? And please don't whinge about the name, which is really immaterial when the activity is so popular and is doing so much good for the tradition. The other thing I'd like to know, dead godparents aside, is have you ever been to an English Ceilidh? Or to a social dance? Do you know the difference? Do you participate in, or have experience of, any English traditional dancing at all? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 01:01 PM Come to think of it, dance is a loanword. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 01:06 PM Dance - from French, danser Oh dear. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 28 May 08 - 01:08 PM I think English Country Dancing is one of those aspects of an English Education that most of us would rather forget, WAV! You link to WIKI in this respect, which makes it quite plain that ECD was very much a bourgeois thing anyway, revived in the early 20th century by Cecil Sharp whereupon it was inflicted upon generations of hapless school-kids by strict matronly pedagogues who probably thought such pseudo rustic cavorting to be somehow good for our souls. One would imagine that the adoption of the Ceilidh, and latterly eCeilidh, by a younger more dynamic & radical generation, is as much by way of disassociation as anything else; seeking for a more genuine form of social interaction which might include the best of the old steps with none of the genteel paternalism generally attending them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 01:18 PM ECD in schools. Ahh one of the major embarrassments of certain people's school days, those of a certain age. For those interested there certainly is a fair amount of information out there on eCeilidh, just put 'eceilidh into Google or whatever your favourite search engine is. It's what I'm doing inbetween postings. :-) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 28 May 08 - 01:24 PM Interesting links and services you use. Mudcat is an American site isn't it? Wikipedia which you seem keen to quote from for support was founded by an American wasn't it? Myspace - American again. 741.com - Registered in San Francisco. Surely you could use some good old English resources? For instance, you could host your site at FreeUK.com which would mean you didn't have to serve ads to people and then apologise for them. Plus it's very good and has served me well for years. You could quote from some English encyclopedia rather than the often questionable 'authority' of wikipedia (the founder expressed his concerns famously some time ago) which one could even write an article oon and then link to for 'credibility'. Interesting standards - do what I say not what I do. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 01:43 PM First off, most of the time, when someone links to something they already wrote about via a link, the link goes directly to the paragraph in hand, not to the beginnings of your website, where one would have to sift through hours of material to find the point you are arguing. Second, while in some way I understand a certain aspect of the point I think you are trying to make, I find it misguided. Your arguments remind me of the character of Roderick Spode from the tv adaptation of Jeeves and Wooster-English nationalism of such a vague sort that it comes across as just wacky. Yesterday I asked you what you might think of someone like Michael McGoldrick. Well, looking at an earlier post, I think I got my answer-"if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard." Take that to another level WAV. People move around, Irish came to England,Canada or the US. English went to America. Or people move around in their own country. As I heard Norma Waterson say recently, if you had a song that someone from Sussex had in their family for generations, but then someone moves to Newcastle, the song will change, hence the reason for different versions of songs. What's your stand on bluegrass then WAV? You do know of course that versions of English, Scots and Irish ballads have been maintained almost completely intact in places like Kentucky or Tennessee. People singing songs about English knights and such with a rural southern accent. I suppose if your logic is carried through, those folks are wrong to do so, because they should be singing American songs, whatever that is. On your website too I saw something about World Music-"World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other. You do realize that word, unfused is a real difficult one to use in context of music. West African music does not follow a colonialism rule. You can say someone is from Guinea-Bissau, or Mali, or Senegal, but the music itself comes from an ancient source that predates those names for countries we now know. Thus someone like Toumani Diabate's lineage of griots comes from the area we now know to be Mali, but was not Mali until 1960, before he was even born. The same can be said in Europe. Ever hear regional European music WAV? Do you realize that there has been so much polinization in European music that you can have someone from regions of France singing in Italian, or someone from Sardinia singing in Catalan? See? unfused doesn't work when you have music that by a map says it belongs in one country, while culturally, actually belongs in another. So your stated belief that different nationalities should present their own native, unfused music to each other, is in actuality, a deluded belief that music stops at border checkpoints, even the ones that didn't exist until the 20th century. To paraphrase Dave Swarbrick, you can do anything you want to music, it doesn't mind. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 01:56 PM Thanks, Nick, but, with my email and my web host, I've avoided "UK" - I believe in the English nation and the United Nations. (On myspace, "UK" is unavoidable, but you may see I've found a way around it.) "E-Ceilidh IS English dance" (Ruth)...so it's a misnomer - call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances and I will stop whinging. (But nice to see you competing/"fighting"/arguing, these days, mostly without dirty tactics - although, I'd prefer late Godmother to "dead" Godmother...wouldn't you? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 28 May 08 - 02:00 PM my late Godmother told my they did "English country dancing" at school If it comes to it, I did "English country dancing" at school, some time before I'd ever heard of a 'ceilidh' (barn dances, we had back then). I've never heard of an event called an English Country Dance, however. we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background No, we don't. We have hundreds of different cultures, some flourishing, some reviving, some being kept alive by enthusiasts and some withering on the tree. I think most people here are enthusiasts for one or many of those cultures. But here's the funny thing - the people who are heavily into bell-ringing or playing the Northumbrian small pipes or rapper dancing aren't usually the ones who complain about other people being equally into qawwali chant or gospel music or square-dancing. Enthusiasts for one area of participatory culture generally welcome enthusiasts for other areas, 'English' or otherwise. It's not a problem - the more culture the merrier. Your insistence on accentuating the negative (in the guise of celebrating something called 'English culture') makes me wonder not only about your politics but, more importantly, about your enthusiasm. What do you actually like? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 02:02 PM Dead is dead, regardless of how you dress it up. I never been one to prettify it. and WAV once more says "call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances " I, for one, absolutely refuse to be so narrow-minded. Once more,English country dance is the form of dance, the ceilidh is the event at which the dance is performed, by REALLY entusiastic people, there's a big difference. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST, Cushie Butterfield Date: 28 May 08 - 02:06 PM "I believe in the English nation and the United Nations" ... where does the Geordie Nation fit in? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 28 May 08 - 02:10 PM the character of Roderick Spode from the tv adaptation of Jeeves and Wooster Based on Oswald Mosley (Spode was leader of the "Black Shorts"!) "E-Ceilidh IS English dance" (Ruth)...so it's a misnomer - call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances and I will stop whinging I have occasionally done things for no other reason than to stop a close relation or loved one whinging, but generally nothing more radical than going back to check the back door or stopping to buy an ice-cream. The idea that the English folk-dance scene should collectively forswear both non-English tunes and the word 'ceilidh', for no other reason than to stop Some Bloke On The Internet whinging, is a bit hard to take seriously. One could almost imagine that Some Bloke On The Internet actually wanted to carry on whinging... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 02:13 PM "E-Ceilidh IS English dance" (Ruth)...so it's a misnomer - call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances and I will stop whinging." ECD, reffering to an event, is a MISNOMER, WAV. "Thanks, Nick, but, with my email and my web host, I've avoided "UK" - I believe in the English nation and the United Nations. (On myspace, "UK" is unavoidable, but you may see I've found a way around it.)" I didn't know that your website is hosted by the UN.... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 02:15 PM The UN has a website hosting service? I did not know that! Is it ad free? or is it, perhaps slow like dial-up and really rather redundant, when you finally are able to log-in? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 28 May 08 - 02:50 PM No, WAV, because English country dance already means something ELSE(when I clicked on this thread I didn't realise it was another of your crackpot meanderings, I actually thought it was going to be about English country dance tunes). E-ceilidh is one thing, and English country dances, as done by social dancers, is something else entirely. I repeat my question: have you attended any E-ceilidhs? Social dances? D4D? Do you dance at all, or are you, as usual, pontificating from a position of complete ignorance? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 02:59 PM To DS and Volgadon: have a look, instead of being silly. To Phil: I do participate and know about 50 English songs, chants, and hymns, just about by heart (see RECORD OF REPERTOIRE, on above link, if you like). I've never danced - I won't attend anything in England advertised as a ceilidh (maybe if I vist Scotland I will), but have enjoyed listening to and watching the dancing at festivals in Durham and Northumberland (and can recognise stars, arches, do-si-dos, swings, etc.). To Cushie - I don't want Geordie nor Cornish independence (in this case I DO like the status quo, and am NOT whinging!). |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 28 May 08 - 03:07 PM "I've never danced - I won't attend anything in England advertised as a ceilidh (maybe if I vist Scotland I will), but have enjoyed listening to and watching the dancing at festivals in Durham and Northumberland (and can recognise stars, arches, do-si-dos, swings, etc.)." So you've never been to an English Ceilidh, you don't dance yourself, but you're still going to not only try and define it, but also dictate to the many participants and bands out there about what they ought to be calling it. Plus ca change... PS - So what is this dancing you're watching at festivals in Durham and Northumberland? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 03:07 PM P.S: I just heard that Nepal (great place to visit) has become a republic. Here's a toast to that... Poem 23 of 230, walkaboutsverse.741.com: ABOVE EVEREST When flying from Nepal to Thailand, I was given a "good-side" seat; And, as I looked out the plane window, The view I saw was really neat. For breaking through a thick sheet of cloud Were the high Himalayan peaks; And, rising the highest of them all, Mount Everest - heaven bespeaks! (C) David Franks 2003 |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 03:15 PM You see, WAV, there's another difference between you and I, I have the capability of being silly, it's part of who I am. Having said that, I have no faith, as you appear to do, in the UN, they really are rather useless, but what all this has to do with country/social dance/ and ceilidhs, I have no idea, and your extremely bad verse isn't helping any at all. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 03:16 PM So WAV, answer my question. Following your logic, should English origin songs found in America, or Newfoundland, or wherever be sung by the inhabitants of those areas, or does that prevent our fine American music from being heard? Do your rules apply only to your England, or do you carry your theory to everywhere? Read my above post to see how flawed that is. By the way, little slow on the news about Nepal. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 28 May 08 - 03:20 PM You see I've been inspired to write POEM I went on the train on Tuesday From Halifax back to Leeds And saw a charm of chaffinches Eating loads of seeds To the west in the distance The Pennines stroked the sky And as I got further away from Manchester The weather even dried. (C) Me |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 03:29 PM Actually I was wondering what Nepalese (or anyones elses) politics have to do with country dancing |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 03:38 PM It's UN eco-travel I think. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 28 May 08 - 03:41 PM (and can recognise stars, arches, do-si-dos, swings, etc.) Isn't do-si-do a French term finding its way into ECD via the American Barn Dance? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: catspaw49 Date: 28 May 08 - 03:46 PM We used to waste bandwidth in a number of really dumb ways but with shit of this ilk, the 'Cat is now plumbing new nadirs of deeply ridiculous bullshit. I couldn't imagine why this thread was of much interest as I'd read the somewhat sillyass opening post and assumed (my mistake) that most would get a laugh and move on. It never occurred to me that a serious conversation might ensue. 'Course its hard to see this crap as a serious conversation. But my fascination was so great that I read on and on and I am ashamed of myself as I would be if I watched races for the accidents. WAV.....you're obviously some kind of pathetic fuckin' broke-dick jadrool with a large streak of ego-inflated bigotry. Go have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up. Barring that, I'd instead suggest that the rest of you take this entire sorry excuse for a thread topic right over to WAV's myspace blog and flood his bandwidth with this friggin' monkeyshit. Just a thought.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 28 May 08 - 03:47 PM ...So - if do-si-do - why not Ceilidh? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 03:49 PM Have a look at what? Please be a little more specific, because I don't want to wade through the website. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 03:53 PM Ahhh..thank you, that clears that up, well not really. At the moment I'm read a piece on English country dance (the form). The short essay, dated April 2004,by Colin Irwin, is to be found in the archives of fRoots magazine. In the paragraph I'm reading, Irwin wonders what Scan Tester. the fiddle and concertina player, and step dancer would have made of the resurgence of ceilidhs and social dances. Tester, I have to admit, I have only just discovered (I think I said somewhere that I'm still learning). |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 04:19 PM The dancing I've seen at the festivals of Durham and Northumberland was English and Scottish, mostly - I'm not sure of the percentages (off the top of my head, callers mentioned "The Dashing White Sergent" and "Jimmy Allen", e.g.). And, in anticipation, no - so far I only introduce the tunes of the above-mentioned songs on my tenor-recorder. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 04:23 PM Scottish dancing in Durham, what were they thinking?! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 04:26 PM I give up, Scottish dancing in Durham, well there goes the neighbourhood, as an American friend of mine constantly says, and with very good reason. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 04:47 PM To DS and IE: I said above "mostly/all" English dances/tunes and I'll stop whinging, and "that my late Godmother told me that at her English school they did learn one or two Scottish dances, BUT at least 90% of what they danced was, indeed, English". I stand by that. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 04:51 PM Yes, but your original point, that the event should be called an English country dance, is ridiculous. Judging by how you've quoted her, that's not what your late godmother ment either. Can't you be satisfied that people are dancing, having fun, in a good productive way, no matter where the dance originates from? Besides, people are dancing ECD, and it is really rich for you, who doesn't dance, to make pronouncements upon it. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 04:52 PM Fine, that's just a little humour, but now address some of the other points I have posed to you. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 05:03 PM Look, let me say this ONCE more, your late Godmother wasn't the only one to do country dancing in school. There are those of us of a certain age who also did it. Your point is what in this regard? I think it's also been pointed out that your late Godmother (late for what? :-D) is not an academic source. These figures you're bandying about are totally meaningless. You know what, WAV, it's time for you to actually participate in some social dancing, you do need to get out of the house more . |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 28 May 08 - 05:15 PM "Your point is what in this regard?" DS...see above (not far). "You know what, WAV, it's time for you to actually participate in some social dancing, you do need to get out of the house more"... Today, as well as jobearching, myspace, and posting here, Shepard, I was in the audience for the Newcastle Uni. stundents' final recitals, at The Sage, Gateshead. And what if I participate in the other facets of folk and just watch the dancing, Shepard/Volgamum?! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 28 May 08 - 05:17 PM I've written a poem too! Well, I've written most of it. I could actually do with a bit of help with the ending, if anyone's interested. Just the very last bit. Well, I say the last bit. Actually the middle could probably do with a bit of work, if anyone wants to chip in. Actually I've just got the first line. But it's very good. Here goes: One evening, while posting on Mudcat Good eh? Four more lines and I've nailed it. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 28 May 08 - 05:19 PM WalkaboutsHearse, get it into your head that you are talking cobblers. It's rich for someone who doesn't dance to make demands of the dancers, especially when he doesn't know what he's talking about. It's been shown that the events were NEVER called ECDs. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 28 May 08 - 05:20 PM You have no point other than to constantly quote your dead Godmother as an academic source. It won't do, it really won't do. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 05:24 PM You also don't respond to questions, me thinks your silence to my queries has been because you can't. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 28 May 08 - 05:32 PM and "Jimmy Allen", e.g. I play Jimmy Allen on pipe & tabor; next time you're in Durham check out the cell where he died - it's now a tapas bar called Jimmy Allen's under the dry arches of Elvet Bridge by the boathouse, at least it was the last time I was passing. He was also a distant relative of mine, a horse thief, womaniser, ne'er-do-well, and a fine piper who reportedly absorbed the influences of the music he heard in the various countries he travelled through, including India... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,JM Date: 28 May 08 - 06:20 PM Got it! Walkaboutsverse. You are Robin Cooper and I claim my five pounds... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Howard Jones Date: 28 May 08 - 06:21 PM So tell me, WAV, as you've never been to a ceilidh, what do you imagine goes on at them? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 28 May 08 - 06:34 PM I think this one's better than my previous effort and captures something of the angst of an Englishman with culture venturing into foreign parts with an open mind and a sense of adventure. I call this one "Wednesday" On Wednesday by way of a contrast I Easyjot* to Biarritz But to me - and it may be a cultural thing - They just don't seem to make proper chips Still the weather seems better than Huddersfield And I thought that I'd stay for a while But their lack of a cuisine that tickles my buds Made the whole thing a bit of a trial So I came home * If Stavros tries to sue me and Mudcat for trademark infringement I am sorry |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 06:37 PM Actually at a ceilidh everyone talks about their degrees in this or that, the UN, eco-tourism, Mudcat, and everyone dances to En...er...Iri....no...Scot..no, thats not right,....Welsh...well they really don't have dance music now do they...Cajun, no they call there's something else...wait...I've got it-they dance to Afroindianspanishjapanesechileanfrenchnorwegianmalaysian funkjazzsoultrancehip-hop. with a little bit of traditional music too. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 28 May 08 - 06:43 PM Shoestrings, irishenglish. You forgot the many conversations about shoestrings. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 28 May 08 - 06:57 PM What goes on at a ceilidh? From what I've heard, it's something to do with dancing in stilettoes in the snow. Sounds decidedly impractical. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 07:59 PM Oh, nearly forgot, table tennis results because WAV thinks, " I'd rather females play table-tennis, as lawn tennis puts too much strain on the racket-arm." Funny, neither of the Williams sisters has much of a problem with that. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 28 May 08 - 08:22 PM I've never done this before, but 200 up! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Leadfingers Date: 28 May 08 - 09:51 PM Good for you Mate !! And thats for BOTH the last two posts |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 04:08 AM It strikes me that WAV, by not dancing, is just as guilty of not practising an aspect of his culture as is someone who chooses to play a Swedish tune....... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 04:57 AM Might this be of any relevance here I wonder? Nabbed from another thread I admit, but it occurred to me that such deliberate departures from what most of us might accept as being traditional are in themselves interesting if only so we might see our own personal myths about such things reflected therein. Personally I blame The Wicker Man which seems to have become a pamphlet for all manner of such bogus nonsense, but entertaining in itself of course as the only Horror Folk Musical, no matter how disjointed the folk elements might be. So what's new there I wonder? Nowt to do with ECD as such, though one might ponder the May Pole itself, once such as essential feature of ECDing at school, however so sanitised from its original (gulp!) phallic significance. And for those who haven't seen it, or would like to see it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSvJgRSiJSM |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 05:24 AM I said I've never been to anything advertised as a ceilidh in England - but I do have some idea what goes on at a proper ceilidh, as I've heard one on Scottish BBC radio: Scots and tourists gather to hear a short story or two, the recitation of verses, Scottish tunes, Scottish dancing, a song or two, etc. "It strikes me that WAV, by not dancing, is just as guilty of not practising an aspect of his culture as is someone who chooses to play a Swedish tune......."...if I had the time and the energy, Volgadon, to add English dances to my English folk repertoire, there would still be stick-dressing, pipe-making, watercolours, oils, sketching, cooking a roast, pigeon fancying, leek growing, twitching, treading the boards...spare my days, woman! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 05:27 AM So, it's ok for someone to, say, play a Swedish tune if they like it? English culture isn't threatened? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 05:29 AM So you don't even know what happens at an ENGLISH ceilidh, WAV - but you're still going to decide what it should be called. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 06:00 AM To RA: there should be no such thing as an English ceilidh - let the Scots have their ceilidhs, and the Irish their ceilis...does an American line-dancing night ever get called a ceilidh? It's good to APPRECIATE the cultures of other nations - but it's also good to PRACTISE your own. Accordingly, Volgadon, I have appreciated some Swedish tunes from visiting Swedes at the Hexham Gathering, last year...but I would never try and learn them, as an Englishman is not a Swede. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 06:08 AM cooking a roast A vegetarian roast I would hope, WAV! Ask Phil about Steve's roast dragons which were (are?) very much part of their traditional Xmas fare, along with Jinglebrass & the rest of it... I missed out on this the year Steve & I were sharing a flat at Brancepeth Castle owing to my decamping down to Worth Abbey to spend Christmas with my Benedictine girlfriend (now my wife) & her monkish friends. Otherwise - lots of twitchers here in Granny's Bay as a rule; we had a visiting Ross's Gull resident in the estuary for a month or so. I always ask them what the excitement's about & somehow manage to get excited about it myself even though I know SFA about it. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 06:09 AM "but it's also good to PRACTISE your own." but as you have no idea what happens at an English celidh, you don't know what's being practised there. English culture IS practised at English ceilidhs, so the people who go to them are engaging with and celebrating English culture, regardless of what the event is called. You, on the other hand, are NOT engaging with one of the most dynamic and thriving aspects of the contemporary English folk scene just because you disagree with the name. Maybe you ought to PRACTISE what you preach. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 06:31 AM Pardon my French, Sedayne, but would one of your good-wife's monkish-friends happen to be a good single-female sort? If I see a flyer for, or a little birdie tells me of, an English country dance night, I may go and watch, RA. (And at least we're all remembering to spell practiSe the proper English way.) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 06:36 AM as an Englishman is not a Swede And neither, with respect, WAV, is a naturalised Australian who has only lived in in England since 1993 in any sense an Englishman. You demonstrate this by your persistent failure to pick up on the subtler cultural nuances which to the rest of us are English as Ceilidhs, King Prawn Chow Mein, Bhangra, hip-hop, Mosques, and Polish puddings in Leeds market. You also demonstrate it by by your self-imposed cultural pedantry by which you seek to objectify your own subjective perceptions, no matter how misguided these perceptions have been proved to be. The pedant laments things for not being as they ought to be, the pragmatist appreciates things for being as they are. Things were never any different, WAV - and the only thing you're really demonstrating here is just how little you've learned about us in the last 15 years. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 06:43 AM Actually, I'm even less English than WAV, though I've lived in England a bit longer (and I know that practice and practise are both correct, albeit with different meanings). I love England in all its diversity, while still appreciating its traditions. I'm a real life immigrant, you see. And WAV thinks I ought to go back where I came from. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 06:50 AM They were all Benedictine Monks, WAV - my wife being part of the Lay Community at the time, abiding by The Rule of St. Benedict, which involved getting up at 5am in the freezing dark for Matins, in which we chanted psalms to Gelineau tones to, quite often, zither accompaniment! We're not involved with the Lay Community now though, but it does still exist, replete, I believe, with plenty of good Roman Catholic single females... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,JM Date: 29 May 08 - 06:54 AM And further to what Sedayne wrote above, WAV, this is why you are a racist whether you believe yourself to be one or not. 'Racism' means to discriminate on the grounds of race (and not the rather fuzzy definition you offered recently). By telling people that they should or should not do things based purely on where they were born is a patently un-helpful, flawed and (yes...) racist thing to do. I do not choose to dance Morris or play English tunes, or eat roast dinner because of where I was born. I do these things because a) my best friends dance with me and I like their company and going to places to do something together, b) I like the tunes and c) it tastes nice and is a pleasant thing to do with your family and friends on a Sunday. Unlike some posters on this thread, I don't care that you spent your formative years in Australia - you are welcome here and I am genuinely pleased that you want to take an interest in English traditions, but you have massively misunderstood the motivation behind them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 06:55 AM The Worth Abbey Lay Community now exists as the Lay Community of Saint Benedict and has a website at: http://www.laybenedictines.org/ |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 07:06 AM Unlike some posters on this thread, I don't care that you spent your formative years in Australia - you are welcome here and I am genuinely pleased that you want to take an interest in English traditions, but you have massively misunderstood the motivation behind them. Absolutely; you can't get any clearer than that. I welcome you as an essential part of English Culture as it is, even if for you this means something entirely different. The only thing that matters about English Culture are the people living it, which is to say everyone living in England at this point in time - yourself included. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 07:08 AM For the record, Sedayne, it was 1997 I came back, not 1993, as there was almost 4 years here (learning to walk and talk with a NW accent, of course), before my parents emigratied, etc. And, for the record, Ruth, I'm NOT saying my family or you should repatriate - I am saying that, FROM NOW ON, the UN should agree to slow emigration down, and help genuine assylum-seekers to their NEAREST safe country. And I have heard a few overseas-born people now in England agree with this. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 07:11 AM Dance, WAV, is a French term, so? Part of the strength of any language is it's ability to absorb outside influences and words. A language that doesn't grow, is dead. ECD is danced at E-ceilidhs, is that not good enough, or do you insist that the title be changed to something which was never used. An Englishman is not a Swede, but surely music should be played on the basis of ENJOYMENT. Waltzes have been found in the 'tradition', as have polkas and mazurkas, yet the origins of the styles aren't English. I'm not an Englishman, I'm Israeli, so, should I not have read Wodehouse, Waugh and Saki, does it rob Biyalik of his grandeur or Altermann of his biting wit? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 07:18 AM it was 1997 I came back, not 1993 Sorry, WAV; I thought you said you'd been here 15 years, but that just makes it more important to moderate your pronouncements & be more accommodating in your observations. I'm sure you'd find it a good less frustrating if you were... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 07:23 AM Sorry, Volgadon, you've lost me there (and above I admitted you know more of England than I of Israel); however, I do kwow tha Inbal Dor (found easily via her link on my Top Friends) is a great singer. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: catspaw49 Date: 29 May 08 - 07:26 AM I am totally overcome with the idea of someone desiring to be English as opposed to whatever they actually are. Just how low is your self-esteem WAV? Why not aspire to be a Hell's Angel or monkey wrangler or something? English is the best you can do? LMAO Spaw |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 07:29 AM "And I have heard a few overseas-born people now in England agree with this." I'm one. I don't. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Joe Date: 29 May 08 - 07:31 AM JM has hit the spot there! If I was to feel that I was dancing strictly to maintain any sort of tradition, I would give up tomorrow! I am involved with a tradition and have been for the last 10 years because my brother was involved with it and enjoyed himself, I got to discover the mysteries of the village pubs at the tender age of 14, and I loved the dancing. I now play folk music because I enjoy it. I enjoy the social side of sessions, sometimes more than the music itself. WAV - what is your motivation behind your involvement in the folk world? Is it important to maintain a tradition in order to simply maintain a tradition? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 07:33 AM I am saying that, FROM NOW ON, the UN should agree to slow emigration down No, you're not, inasmuch as you're not starting to say that 'now'. You've been saying it for nearly two years to my knowledge: "Surely what's happened the last few years/days should make people question immigration, and the idea that a multiple number of cultures can live peacefully under the one state law - the law, the land, the people, the culture should be linked, and this can only occur when everyone/the U.N. agrees that immigration is NOT good for humanity." GUEST:Walkaboutsverse, 13th July 2006 What does WAV in May 2008 say to immigrants who have arrived since July 2006? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 07:36 AM Biyalik and Altermann are two of our national poets. Has reading English literature harmed them or Israeli culture? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 07:45 AM Of course, Phil, the UN has yet to decide on that, and I'm still arguing they should/Ruth is still arguing they shouldn't. Like you, Joe, I enjoy it, and the chin-wagging that goes with it - but not too much, it's the folk music/dancing we really go out for, yes? Nearly everyone here on mudcat (including, very much so, me) would say they like the WORLD being multicultural - but trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 07:49 AM I live in such a place, WAV, the only problem is trying to force one culture on everyone. Let culture evolve naturally. "the UN has yet to decide on that," Is it even on the books??? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 07:51 AM Is it important to maintain a tradition in order to simply maintain a tradition? This has important resonances with other threads, and might just be deserving of a new one: Pedantic Folkies v Pragmatic Folkies! Thing is though, I think I might be a bit of both, although a decent pint or three does make things easier all round. The Crack, as they say in Newcastle & Dublin, is all that matters. Some of the worst sings I've been to have been all traditional, whilst some of the best... well, you get the picture! So, whilst I only sing traditional songs (exceptions only going so far as to prove the rule) & tell traditional stories (likewise), how is that when it comes to music, traditional is the exception that proves a rule of resolute experimentalism, noise, sampling, looping, hip-hop, & free-improvisation? All of which, by the way, I regard a being as English as Elgar. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 29 May 08 - 07:52 AM And yet WAV, you still haven't answered any of my questions. For the third time, is Michael McGoldrick conspiring against England by being English born, but someone who performs with Irish, Scottish, and English musicians? Are rural Americans who sing old transplanted English ballads about knights and King Henry taking away from "proper" American songs according to your theories? Does music, have a border control? According to you, world music should be presented as an unfused item, yet I have presented how that is culturally impossible. Sedayne mentioned Bhangra, do you know where that originates WAV? Do you know where salsa originated as a musical form? With your limited understanding then, why do you impose your rules upon English music and culture? Lets bring it back though. Answer my questions I have posed to you, because if English musicians shouldn't be playing Swedish songs, etc, should Americans or Newfoundlanders or what have you be singing songs of English origin in their respective countries? Is that a hinderance, or a boon for English music in your mind, because if you believe a standard should apply to music, its got to be across the board-you don't get one set of rules for the country you live in, while everyone else can go about things differently. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 08:11 AM the UN has yet to decide on that, and I'm still arguing they should You're arguing for limits on immigration. You believe immigration is a bad thing. You also held this belief in 2006, and quite possibly earlier. So what do you think about non-English migrants who have arrived here since 2006? Would you, personally, prefer them to leave? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 08:16 AM If I had Michael McGoldrick's outlook, I'd still be singing all the songs I learnt by heart in Australia - and I never do: despite Sedayne's insistence that I'm still a naturalised Australian, I'm an English repatriate, in every sense of the word. Within what has become mainstream American culture there are by now may genres, of course - I quite like listening to the lap-steel, Eva Cassidy, e.g. I also like listening to Amerindian sticks, chants, and drums (and a look through my Top Friends may make my stance on this more clear to you, I.E.) To Phil - see just above. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 08:25 AM So why won't you sing Australian songs? If they are good songs but unsung because of a silly notion of nationalism, you are all the poorer for it. One of the silliest things I've ever heard. Begining fiddlers hold their instrument too tight, don't they, strangling the sound? Well, that applies to culture as well. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 08:36 AM I have my work cut out keeping 50 English chants, songs, and hymns in my head, Volgadon - if I don't go through them once per week, I soon forget. And if that's not enough, I don't know if you get the same ads atop this thread, but the 2 I just saw were for "Licnce to ceilidh" and "Square dance band"!...I repeat ENGLISH COUNTRY DANCES, PLEASE! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Joe Date: 29 May 08 - 08:39 AM Whats in a name? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 08:43 AM The erstwhile colonial cultures are great repositories of traditional song; I've any amount of unique renderings of songs such as The Derby Ram collected in Australia, and, as I keep banging on, The Max Hunter Folk Song Collection is the most invaluable on-line resource of English Folk Song there is, in my opinion. Out of interest, were your folks £10 Whinging Poms, WAV? Maybe this is the source of your current cultural disgruntlements, having been brought up with a halcyon vision of English culture by hapless Émigrés - and back you come only to find it's nothing like how it was described to you! Well, you can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy, and it seems to me that's exactly what you're trying, and failing, by your own admission, to do. Now, all you got to do is ask yourself why and maybe you'll find it's time to have a good old clear out - a bit of therapeutic de-cluttering as they say - give the heave-ho to all this tired old rhetoric you keep quoting over and over again. You've made yourself a prisoner of your own conclusions, so time for a break-out before you get too institutionalised! Only then might you begin the real process of repatriation, and might just go some way to becoming a true Englishman. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 08:47 AM WAV, ECD is a form of dance, it's not the ONLY English dance. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 08:54 AM To Phil: see just above. No, WAV, your previous comment was the one I was replying to. If it had answered my question, I wouldn't have felt the need to repeat it. You're obviously not on rationed for words, so I'll give you another chance to answer a straight question. What's your view on post-2006 non-English immigrants? Would you, personally, prefer them to return whence they came? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 09:04 AM Didn't I give my list of English dances, above, Volgadon? I've just put Max on my favourites, thanks, Sedayne - but no thanks for the other advice; if an Irish American, or Scottish American repatriated and made the same effort as me, I think they'd be well appreciated - as I would have been if I'd come home to England in the 1950s. Whether I'm good or bad at English hymns and folk, I have put a lot into my repatriation - partly because I really DO like out own good culture...Why can't you come to terms with that, Sedayne? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Joe Date: 29 May 08 - 09:13 AM WAV, Nobody appreciates your efforts in trying to be someone you are not, whilst simeltaneously telling people how they should think about and what rules should apply to their own culture. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 29 May 08 - 09:16 AM Serendipitously, one of the Quotes for Today on my iGoogle home page is: "It's so much easier to suggest solutions when you don't know too much about the problem." - Malcolm Forbes But WAV, you haven't answered my question, or have deliberately evaded it. In the context of this discussion, it should have been clear that I was referring to ceilidhs in England when I asked what you imagine goes on at them. So please elucidate. And now you've mentioned the hymns, WAV, I'm a bit worried about them too. Surely you're aware that the modern hymnals, including "Hymns Ancient and Modern" which you seem to favour so much, virtually eradicated the traditional English hymns? Surely you should be singing those, not HAM, as being truly representative of English culture? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 09:25 AM I, e.g., sing my "Love divine, all loves excelling" to Stainer's "Love divine" tune (in Hymns Anc.), Howard - not Blaenwern of Wales, which they used on the last BBC Songs of Praise. I wouldn't like to imagine - you tell me, Howard, please...in either prose or verse. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 29 May 08 - 09:28 AM Can't stop the poems now they have really got to me. This one's a bit more relevant to the thread. I call it - MY FEET DON'T UNDERSTAND ENGLISH I speak to my feet quite seriously at times I say "Feet" (when they start to prance) "Only move to the right sort of tune ONLY English Country Dance" Jigs and reels are hard to resist But they're banned from moving a muscle Similarly the rumba, the charleston, the twist And the various versions of hustle I caught them starting to begin to respond To a famed Aussie soap disco baby They must have been tired and forgotten As I've banned them from dancing to Ceilidhs I should be so lucky (c) Me |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 09:29 AM All creatures of our God and King.......... Oh, horrors, it includes a GERMAN melody. That means that a fine, English one wasn't used. Wav, I'm aware of that list which you provided, the rest of those dances are NOT English country, so thanks for backing me up on that one. So why, then, do you insist on everything being labelled such? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 09:33 AM WAV, at what point does something become English? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Joe Date: 29 May 08 - 09:42 AM Is the tradition of setting fire to things then hurling rocks at the firemen an English one? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 09:52 AM Why can't you come to terms with that, Sedayne? Because your version of our own good culture doesn't in any shape or form match up to the reality of what our own good culture actually is. You keep harping about 1950s England like it was some sort of dream time, but on what evidence do you base this? I was born in a multi-ethnic & multi-cultural Northumberland in 1961 - I grew up with Yeminites, Chinese, Scots, Irish, Hindus, Pakistanis and even people from Seghill (who seemed a good deal more alien to me than any of the foregoing). The multi-ethnic & multicultural reality of England is my reality, and it is our own good culture. It embraces all, even you, in the acknowledgement that these British islands of which England is a part have always been islands of immigration & invasion, ever since the last ice-age & before. The whole of British culture is determined by tens of thousands of years of invasion and immigration, a process we see continuing into the present day & beyond. English hymns and folk songs have precious little to do with English Culture as most of experience it; they are but one small aspect of it, similarly the other things that might interest you. Folk singing is a hobby to a few, and a profession for even less; but most people haven't even heard of it. Like I say, you can go for a lot of years in the real world without meeting another folkie, but you do meet folk, English Folk, whatever they might be ethnically, culturally, they are English - and yes, on the present evidence, more English that you'll ever be simply because you keep hanging on to your erroneous idealogy, no matter how wrong it has been proved to be - time, and time and time again. English Culture renews itself every day; thousands die, thousands more are born; and quite a few arrive by sea & air too. All have as much right to be here as anyone else, and to experience English Culture as they find it, interpret it, contribute to it, celebrate it & ultimately change it, as they have been doing forever. Ultimately, humanity determines culture, WAV - not the other way round, otherwise things would stay the same. Traditions don't stay the same, they change and die and outlive their usefulness, assuming they ever existed in the first place. In this sense what you call Folk Music isn't even Folk Music at all - it's a minority hobby, like Railway Modelling, with the difference that, unlike you, evidently, most of us would recognise a real train if we saw it. But upon this authentic model railway vision of Hornby 00 1950s England you base your entire life's philosophy. Personally, I couldn't care less to be honest - but that you then have the neck to publish your views & open up threads such as this to promote your misanthropic ideas is something I really can't see go unchallenged, for your own good as much as anything else. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 09:55 AM Volgadon - you are something of a mystery to me, frankly...sometimes clear and knowledgeable, other times..!..English country dance is the first on my list of "English Dances"!! (And I'll probably get the P-word now.)"WAV, at what point does something become English?"..don't know - ask Sedayne when he decides I am once again English, and How long is a piece of string? Eagerly awaiting Nick's next trick, Yours WAV |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 09:57 AM Well said, Sedayne. Not that he'll take a blind bit of notice. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 09:58 AM Is the tradition of setting fire to things then hurling rocks at the firemen an English one? We've already been there, despite it being largely a myth created by the Daily Mail for their own divisive ends. The joys of modern folklore! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 10:13 AM Except that you insist on calling everything an ECD. Following your logic, Poles shouldn't attend dances, they should attend polkas!!! "WAV, at what point does something become English?"..don't know - ask Sedayne when he decides I am once again English, and How long is a piece of string?" So why, then, can't ceilidh be considered an English term, if it has been widely used as such for several years? How do you reconcile the above quote of yours, with this one: "Critics often mention cut-off points for English culture, and evolution/change, when it's mainly a case of REPLACEMENT: i.e, if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard." |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 29 May 08 - 10:27 AM WAV-"If I had Michael McGoldrick's outlook, I'd still be singing all the songs I learnt by heart in Australia " And also, "Within what has become mainstream American culture there are by now may genres, of course." First one, ok-so McGoldrick, an amazingly talented multi instrumentalist is somehow in your mind some type of traitor because sometimes he plays Irish or Scottish music. Yet if he plays with Kate Rusby, that's ok? Second one. Yes there are many genres WAV-Rock, Jazz, Blues, Native American, Country, R&B, Hip-Hop, Cajun, Zydeco, Bluegrass. Related to bluegrass though, again I ask you-should songs that travelled to the foothills of Appalachia and throughout the South that are English in origin be abandoned by the inhabitants of that region because of your notion that for them to do so, they are neglecting their own great American songs? See, that's a twist on your words, but if its true for you to say that if an English singer chooses to sing an Irish song, they are neglecting their own English culture, then you have to follow it through to include all over the world, including someone from Kentucky singing about King Henry, or knights, etc. You can't have it both ways. I now quote from someone who knows a lot more about English music, and who has been hands down, one of its leading figures for over 40 years, Mr. Martin Carthy. Here's the liner notes to the Waterson:Carthy album Common Tongue, as written by Martin: "There are plenty of bands and individuals playing Scots and Irish music and, indeed we ourselves have sung and do sing stuff which clearly derives from Scotland and Ireland whece our families originally came, but this is deliberately an album of English music, a repertoire often ignored but which has balls enough for anyone. Having said that, the musical instinct is far too inclusive to allow any notions of 'purity' to survive for long, and it is neither possible nor desireable to set up musical border checkpoints anywhere. However, there is that elusive and ever changing thing called identity. This album is respectfully dedicated to two mighty human beings, both of whom died in 1996, both of whom cleaved passionately to notions of 'Englishness' but who would, I think, have been disdainful of any ideas of exclusivity:Dennis Potter and Walter Pardon." You see WAV, on the one hand you are not alone, in your wish for English folk music to be a strong and well known element. But on the other, you are seemingly alone in what you believe should be the methodology by which this goal should be obtained. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 10:31 AM Poles shouldn't attend dances, they should attend polkas!!! Or pole dancing. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 10:42 AM To IE: I'm reluctant to quote in this way, but since you have, MC also said in the BBC doc. made when he got his honour, "English don't know who they are any more." To Sedayne: somewhere on mudcat I said that, of course, there were social problems in the 1950s, but not as bad as now, and that media and politicians tend to accept that and argue, rather, over possible solutions. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 10:49 AM One more time and then I'll give it a rest. WAV, what's your view on post-2006 non-English immigrants? Would you, personally, prefer them to return whence they came? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 29 May 08 - 11:01 AM WAV-To IE: I'm reluctant to quote in this way, but since you have, MC also said in the BBC doc. made when he got his honour, "English don't know who they are any more." That has nothing to do with my quote. If anything, my quote is an extension of that. English don't know who they are any more, so here's an album that IS explicitly English, but without puritanical border checkpoints. YOU are the one with the border checkpoints for what you perceive relates to Englishness.I'm sure you must absolutely hate The Imagined Village for that reason. You still have not answered several direct questions I have put to you. Makes me think you can't argue my points, because all you can stick with is some rigid dogma based on an antiquated notion of the country you now call home. Fine, you like the music-great, there's a lot of the people arguing against you on this forum that share that same love, but you are coming across as some moral standard bearer-as if you are saying, you can only enjoy this music the way I say, and not any other. And before you respond to that, I have been to your website, and read your ramblings on music, that's how I can say that. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 11:03 AM Are you not going to answer? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 11:18 AM I've been on myspace, are you doing a cryptic crossword, Volgadon? I don't do crosswords...or are you talking in tongues? I know I'm talking about going back in the case of using ceilidh/English country dance. I have answered that in my address to Ruth, Phil. :-( |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 29 May 08 - 11:19 AM WAV, it has been explained several times in this discussion what happens at English ceilidhs, but as you appear to be convinced that they are somehow damaging to English culture I am curious to know what your own perception is. By your refusal to attend ceilidhs it appears that you don't just object to the word but to the activity as well. If you were serious about preserving and promoting English culture you would be celebrating this, not nit-picking over the use of a word borrowed into the English language. To repeat it yet again, ceilidhs are events where you will find English Country Dances done. You can also expect dances of foreign origin, such as waltzes, polkas, mazurkas, schottisches and quadrilles, which have been long enough established in England to be considered English dances (by everyone except you, apparently). And as it is a living and thriving (albeit minority) tradition, it continues to invent new dances and borrow others from elsewhere. If you want to find English Country Dances, go to a ceilidh. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 11:21 AM Here: "WAV, at what point does something become English?"..don't know - ask Sedayne when he decides I am once again English, and How long is a piece of string?" So why, then, can't ceilidh be considered an English term, if it has been widely used as such for several years? Anyway, how do you reconcile the above quote of yours, with this one: "Critics often mention cut-off points for English culture, and evolution/change, when it's mainly a case of REPLACEMENT: i.e, if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard." |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 11:28 AM I have answered that in my address to Ruth, Phil. :-( No you haven't. You specifically said that immigration should be limited 'FROM NOW ON', in response to which I pointed out that you've been saying this for some time. So when is NOW - 2008 or 2006? Do you regret that immigration wasn't stopped or limited a few years ago? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 29 May 08 - 11:30 AM >>Eagerly awaiting Nick's next trick, Yours WAV Trick?!! These are poems designed to unveil the underlying truths of being and the ineluctable modality of the sublime. They gain much of their power from the underlying Hegelian derived dialectic and the rich tapestry of medieval symbolism woven into the fabric of the muse. Please treat them with the seriousness that they deserve. Being a poet is hard enough but not being taken seriously (alas and alack) is more than this poor heart may be able to bear. O me miserum (is latin allowed?) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 29 May 08 - 11:35 AM I'm sure you must absolutely hate The Imagined Village for that reason. Why is it with The Imagined Village that it's always held up as the sort of album WAV should hate because of his views? I hate it because it's as shite a piece of bland corporate marketing as you're ever likely to come across with about as much musical merit as Celtic Woman. I'm not saying I'm against such fusions per se, just when it results in such gutless diluted middle-class fol-de-rol then I'd real rather listen to the real thing - be it hard-core hip-hop, field-recorded folk, or whatever, just as long as it kicks some ass. All The Imagined Village does is show up folk as the clueless cultural backwater it most surely is. Give me John Barleycorn Reborn any day, and I'm sure WAV would love that! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 11:47 AM I was slightly dissapointed with TIV, but I love the concept and many of the touches. I think a lot of interesting things will come from it. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST, I think we're done Date: 29 May 08 - 11:52 AM Shakespeare wrote "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet," He was English. Born on St. George's Day ... died on it too, how patriotic is that? ;o) And he made words up. I bet he liked a good clog dance. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 11:57 AM "Do you regret that immigration wasn't stopped or limited a few years ago?"...yes, Phil, frankly I wish it had occurred before I was born, such that I'd been brought up here, and all the mass emigration from, and immigration to, England of late had not occurred. I think I would have still built a good CV, which would have been of use, and that I'd be finding it easier to get on, in general. Having said that, I am genuinely happy to be here in England doing my best/bit. To Nick - at least no-one's called you a Vogon, thus far! (See my Walkaboutsverse thread in the BS section, if you wish.) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 11:57 AM Nick is making me laugh. Howard, i made this same point ages ago, but he won't acknowledge or respond to it. To wit: ' "but it's also good to PRACTISE your own." but as you have no idea what happens at an English celidh, you don't know what's being practised there. English culture IS practised at English ceilidhs, so the people who go to them are engaging with and celebrating English culture, regardless of what the event is called. You, on the other hand, are NOT engaging with one of the most dynamic and thriving aspects of the contemporary English folk scene just because you disagree with the name. Maybe you ought to PRACTISE what you preach.' |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Joe Date: 29 May 08 - 11:58 AM I think Nick's poetry is inspiring. I wish he used more free verse though. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 12:05 PM I'd real rather listen to the real thing - be it hard-core hip-hop, field-recorded folk, or whatever Here, I think, we approach the crux of the biscuit. Take my friend who writes and sings in the style of Hank Williams, complete with fake American accent. Done badly or lazily, as it often is, that kind of thing annoys me intensely. Done well and with passion, as he does (I wouldn't be mentioning him otherwise!) it's brilliant. Traditional English music is very rarely done badly or lazily - it's rare enough to hear it done at all. But that doesn't mean it's all good, let alone that everything else should be cast out. The passion is the thing - it's what draws us here, but it can be found elsewhere too. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 29 May 08 - 12:18 PM I am working on a prose poem in a much freer style about a happy Vogon trapped in a bubble that noone can get in or out of. I think it really lends itself to a more classic form to reflect it's rather tragic content. Also thinking of experimenting with writing it in Old English just to give it some proper roots - I was tempted but as we say - and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 12:25 PM Hurrah! I loved Beowulf. Bring it on. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 12:26 PM So, people of all ages dancing many English dances, enjoying trad. music, having FUN and socialising, upsets you because the title of the event is a loanword? Stop whinging and being bitter about what might have been and focus on doing something constructive. " "Do you regret that immigration wasn't stopped or limited a few years ago?"...yes, Phil, frankly I wish it had occurred before I was born, such that I'd been brought up here, and all the mass emigration from, and immigration to, England of late had not occurred. I think I would have still built a good CV, which would have been of use, and that I'd be finding it easier to get on, in general. Having said that, I am genuinely happy to be here in England doing my best/bit. To Nick - at least no-one's called you a Vogon, thus far! (See my Walkaboutsverse thread in the BS section, if you wish.) " |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 12:29 PM May I steal your thunder for a moment, Nick, and respond to Phil's promotion of the passionate attitude with this (it refers to a quote from the late Alf Ramsey, "It will all end in tears"): Poem 150 of 230: TEARS Watching a documentary Of the '66 World Cup, And the way of England's Ramsey, I thought: "Let's give 'passion' up." It voiced and showed his calm way - He playing things down a touch; And, as his home team won the day, They showed care but not too much. Analytical Englishmen - Cool over the tasks that lay; We see some of it in Henman, But it's not the modern way. Sadly, passion and youthful thought Have become the status quo, And social-standards and sport Have sunk relatively low. From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 29 May 08 - 12:42 PM Goodness, you need to read more British history. Passion has always played a role. A really good place to start is TE White's Age of Scandal. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster Date: 29 May 08 - 01:15 PM I've avoided this dreadful thread so far because sedayne and Phil Edwards and Ruth Archer have done such a good job of sucking the thoughts from my head and presenting them to the world. However: I don't want to live in postwar austerity Britain I don't want recieved pro-nun-ci-a-ti-on on black and WHITE TV and bastard Enoch in the late 1960s with his "rivers of blood" (giving sainted Wolverhampton "A BAD NAME") No. Give me e-ceilidhs Brummie baltis Good Polish beers (and better Polish plumbers) Bhangra beats and Bollywood chic Jerk chicken and dumplings Bagels Pizza (stoned baked) Even the Imagined Village (for the concept if not the execution) English cricket captains with subcontinental names Even Aussies... NONE OF THIS Ruins my Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Or Shirley Collins albums Or Wychwood Hobgolblin Or, By God, Mrs Kirkham's Tasty Lancashire Its all part of My beautiful chaotic multiculti England So wind yer neck in, WAV! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 29 May 08 - 01:18 PM Alf Ramsay was an anachronism. Look at the turmoil, change, passion and excitement of the mid-60s that was happening all around him. You are very fond of quoting wikipedia so here's a quote from there which accords more with my memory of the 60's - "The 1960s have become synonymous with all the new, exciting, radical, and subversive events and trends of the period, which continued to develop in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and beyond. In Africa the 1960s was a period of radical political change as countries gained independence from their European colonial rulers, only for this rule to be replaced in many cases by civil war or corrupt dictatorships." Tension between the superpowers at an increasing level; student riots in USA and Europe; the Civil Rights movement in the USA; etc etc With even the slightest grasp of a historical perspective one sees that each era holds the seeds of future change. Even radical change is rooted in strands that go way back in time. Unfortunately those who look back to a halcyon time when everything was fine neglect to see that the agents of change present in those times was what led us (fairly inexorably) to where we are today. The past you yearn for is unfortunately the father of the world you live in now and you can never return and re-write that history (except of course in a mutlidimensional world - I recommend the book and site Imagining the Tenth Dimension to anyone who wants to bend their brain for a while). The past is the engineer of it's own destruction. Passion and youthful thought are a product of all ages. If you had to pick two decades in the last century I would guess the 20s and 60s would be the ones most would pick rather than now. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 01:19 PM Hurrah, ESAM! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 01:25 PM ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice! That's easy for you to say. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Nick Date: 29 May 08 - 01:27 PM I need to go and practice for two gigs at the weekend so leave you with this quick poem (one of them is outdoors so we need good weather) - I NEED A SUNNY SUNDAY Disappointed at the five day weather forecast And Sunday needing sun for the gig to go right I rediscovered my butterfly net And found an unsuspecting cabbage white. I booked him BA first class to Chile "Create the right sort of chaos" was my wish. If we have a hurricane on Sunday It won't be the fault of Michael Fish I'm afraid my interest with poetry probably died with Yeats so that will be the last of them. Drivel anyway. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 01:44 PM Very clever, Nick! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 02:49 PM You contradict yourself, WAV. for the record, Ruth, I'm NOT saying my family or you should repatriate - I am saying that, FROM NOW ON, the UN should agree to slow emigration down "Do you regret that immigration wasn't stopped or limited a few years ago?"...yes, Phil, frankly I wish it had occurred before I was born Evidently you don't just wish immigration could be limited FROM NOW ON, you wish it could have been limited a few decades ago. Presumably this is because you believe too many of the wrong sort of people have pitched up here in that time. So here we are, us good English types over here and those pesky wrong-sort first generation immigrants over here - presumably you think the country would be that much more green and pleasant if they removed themselves. Yes? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 02:53 PM I've always been a wrong 'un, me. I'm only here to take your men and pollute your bloodstock. Anyone fance a cheeseburger? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 02:54 PM Actually that's what I had for tea (three of them), I feel SUCH a traitor and terribly unEnglish :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 03:09 PM To Phil - I've argued the UN should take contol of emigration/immigration and help genuine assylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country; and, because you repeatedly asked, yes I wish it would have occurred earlier; further, asked about repatriation, another matter, I'm not saying everyone should do as I've done. That's as clear and frank as I can be on this, so, unless a little birdie has news of an English county dance, this is a dead thread, as far as I'm concerned. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 03:12 PM WAV said, again, "I've argued the UN should take contol of emigration/immigration and help genuine assylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country" As long as it's not England. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 03:20 PM So WAV is giving up and taking his cricket/tennis ball home with him. A dead thread, but of course it is, because no one will agree with his nasty racist points of view and opinions, and WAV is, without a doubt a racist, whether he cares to admit it or not. Please don't say hello to your BNP/ENP/Justice for England friends from us and watch your arse on the door knob on your way out. From All in Birmingham |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 03:34 PM I've never heard of the ENP, I'm not a member of any political party, the nearest safe country for an assylum seeker could be England, and what you just said is false and defamatory - racism is where someone says they are all like this or that, which I have never done. Questioning immigration - which I will keep doing - is antother matter, DS of Birmingham. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 03:43 PM "racism is where someone says they are all like this or that, which I have never done. Questioning immigration - which I will keep doing - is antother matter" your narrow definition of racism is kind of irrelevant. There are many definitions of racism. For some years, the BNP have been running on a very similar platform to the one you espouse, WAV: foreigners are fine, as long as they're not over here; our culture is being diluted because of outside influences; foreigners are keeping English people out of jobs... are these sentiments you agree with, or not, WAV? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 03:49 PM From the BNP website: "On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years. To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration...We will also clamp down on the flood of 'asylum seekers', all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries." "We also call for preference in the job market to be given to native Britons." "We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain." Sound familiar, WAV? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 29 May 08 - 03:50 PM How convenient you pronounce this a dead thread WAV. Was that because no one agreed with you? Was that because you can't answer, or refuse to answer questions that I and others have asked of you? Or for that matter defend statements that you make, with verbatim quotes from your "website" ad infinitum? Do you accept any form of disagreement WAV? You are the one trying to make a point. At no point on this thread have I seen you step back and say...I respectfully disagree. Instead you send us a link back to your entire website in search of some vague point that may be related to the point in question. Here's the thing, I disagree with people on here all the time, a lot of time we find agreement, partial agreement. Because of your bold pronouncements upon a form of music you have only fairly recently become acquainted with, you alienate people who have decades more working experience with the form than you have. Instead of taking the advice and wisdom of professionals like Chris Parkinson and Eliza Carthy, you have chosen to disregard even their words. Which is why this leaves you with a thread in which no one has agreed with your starting premise of English Country Dances as being the necessary phrase you feel should apply to a dance event, despite ample evidence against your claims. So therein lies another point WAV. If this were a court, and you had presented your case to all of us. The rest of us all countered with our own evidence to disprove your argument, as we have been doing. Going in to the jury or to the judge-who's evidence was more solid, and had more tangible proof, versus who's evidence was more about conjecture, and speculative? Listen mate-you like English folk music. I do too! Lots of us on here do as a matter of fact. Lots of us like other types of music too, as it seems you do as well. Why the need for rules to govern it by? Music is about emotion. Music is about laughing, or crying, or smiling, or anger, or hope. English folk music is underappreciated, thats one of the great things about this forum, we may disagree, but we are all talking about English folk. Why be so strict about how and where it should be played? Go to a ceilidh, tell them right after that Irish song they should tell people-THIS, is an English song, ladies and gentlemen, enjoy it for what it is, as I have for over 20 of my, gulp, almost 40 years on this planet! Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 03:50 PM False and defamatory am I? Well you do have a choice, sue me. All your words including "yes, Phil, frankly I wish it had occurred before I was born, such that I'd been brought up here, and all the mass emigration from, and immigration to, England of late had not occurred. I think I would have still built a good CV, which would have been of use, and that I'd be finding it easier to get on, in general" condemn you. Seems to me you're using the old, old saw of blaming immigrants in this case, for your lack of a good CVand, a job it sounds like. Ever thought there might be other reasons? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 03:51 PM racism is where someone says they are all like this or that, which I have never done That's precisely what you are doing - you're saying that 'they' are not like us, so that our country and our culture won't be enriched by them but must be protected from them. To quote from your earlier comment, "the law, the land, the people, the culture should be linked". Our land, our culture, our people, our law - it's not theirs and it's not for them. If that isn't racism, I don't know what is. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 04:11 PM Some of you may not like it and even try to create confusion, but we are at the stage now where most adults do understand the difference between questioning immigration and being racist. In other words, some of you who like immigration try to paint those who question immigration as racist - but it's harder for you to do that now. Drop this group somewhere in Asia or Africa and I, e.g., would get on as well or better with the locals as any of you (via much travel and studies in humanities), and I do question immigration. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 04:20 PM You've been sussed, dearie, and you don't like it. You are racist regardless of what you try to say, as I've already said, your own words condemn you, and there you go again, using this alleged degree in humanities and your travels to illustrate... what point exactly? You put yourself across as being better than everyone else, you're not. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST Date: 29 May 08 - 04:31 PM I would get on as well or better with the locals as any of you (via much travel and studies in humanities), Why can't you find yourself a job then? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 04:36 PM Guest said, " Why can't you find yourself a job then? " I was suggest an answer to that question via a PM, but I don't think he'd like that answer :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Ruth Archer Date: 29 May 08 - 04:47 PM WAV, as you haven't managed to specifically answer the points I made, I'll assume you agree with them. Whether you'd get on with people in their home countries is immaterial. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: irishenglish Date: 29 May 08 - 04:53 PM Ruth, WAV only selectively responds to direct questions asked of him. I've asked him several, but he's only answered a few. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 29 May 08 - 04:53 PM Not always, but at some interviews I get not "why did you come back?" but "why ON EARTH did you come back?" or even "mad" - which makes it difficult to land the job. DS - you've used false and defamatory language again (please note this moderator). In a democracy, someone can question immigration, & you last 3 or 4 posters should accept that. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 04:55 PM Oh, oh, he's telling teacher on me, but it makes little difference, he is what he is and it seems others noticed along time before I did. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: catspaw49 Date: 29 May 08 - 04:59 PM 300 Up Yours!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 05:00 PM Oh look, a troll |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: catspaw49 Date: 29 May 08 - 05:06 PM Nah...... just a longtime member amazed at the overall silliness of this thread! Continue along at your own rapid pace. I expect this thing will implode of its own inanity somewhere in the 500 post range........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 05:11 PM well I love silliness once in awhile, keeps me from getting TOO serious about things, oh long time member |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: catspaw49 Date: 29 May 08 - 05:18 PM Well then welcome to the 'Cat Noob.........You'll find I am the least serious member around here. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 05:26 PM If you say so |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 05:31 PM most adults do understand the difference between questioning immigration and being racist Maybe, but I don't understand the difference between questioning immigration in the name of English culture and racism. What are they going to do to your precious English culture (whatever that actually is)? Who are 'they' anyway - the French? the Scots? the Irish? the Jews? (Sorry, but this kind of thinking goes back a long way.) I saw an Asian lad on the news the other day, talking about how he crosses the street if he sees a group of white lads on the corner. (In the interests of fairness, the programme also interviewed some white locals, who were telling horror stories about the local Asians.) Anyway, I was having trouble understanding what this lad was saying - blimey, I thought, he's got a broad accent... After a moment I realised it was a broad Yorkshire accent. Born and bred in England, I don't doubt - and in twenty or thirty years' time there'll be plenty of kids with Albanian and Somali parents, speaking English with broad Yorkshire accents. I shouldn't think they'll be going to English Country Dances, though. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 29 May 08 - 05:35 PM Phil,If we can do anything about it they will! Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 29 May 08 - 05:37 PM But maybe that's Manchester? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 05:38 PM In situations like this I'm always reminded of the time, in my youth, when a friend, whose parents were East Indian, and I were walking along the road when a group of yobbos yelled, at my friend, the old "GO BACK WHERE YA CAME FROM!" To which my friend replied to me, in a stage whisper "Oh are they going to me me bus fare back to Erdington, then?" We were in Handsworth, the area of Birmingham I lived in at the time :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Phil Edwards Date: 29 May 08 - 06:14 PM My father used to wear a (fake) fur hat, to keep his head warm. One winter's day we were in the East End of London, my father in his fur-effect hat. A local little old lady caught his eye in the street and beckoned him over. Being a lay reader, back at home, he was quite used to people coming up to him in the street and complimenting him on his sermons or passing on messages about the church fete, and I think he vaguely thought this was something similar. Anyway, he walked across to the beckoning East Ender and leaned over so that he could hear what she was saying, and what he heard was: "Why don't you f*** off back to Russia!" (This isn't strictly relevant, but then what is?) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster Date: 29 May 08 - 06:20 PM Erdington, eh? That's where me Dad's from. Not relevant to the thread but just thought I'd say. Could I also say that despite various of my ancestors being here for a long while, my surname is of Norman origins, so maybe I'd better repatriate myself back to the wilfully flattest bit of France I can find. To me, espousing views on immigration that almost exactly replicate those of the BNP is at worse racist, at best stupid. If that shower o' shite got any real power, you'd probably get your monocultural, retrogressive England, but at a hell of a price. Maybe you think it's one worth paying, but if you truly joined forces with those who'd like to expel or marginalise my black and asian British mates, as a modern Englishman, I'd be forced to indulge in the "tradition" of fighting you all the way to A&E in their defence. Bollocks to the niceties, then. Don't you realise you're playing with fire with these fascistic opinions, WAV? Why can't we celebrate that many of our best traditions either originated abroad or were influenced by things brought in from abroad? Morris (possibly 'Moorish') dancing, for instance. What we have becomes stronger when it takes on new life. It's a bit like the European royals. Keep it in the family for too long and you start growing prehensile tails and webbed feet. Allow a - shall we say - broadening of the cultural gene pool and there's loads of new and exciting tangents to explore. Culture - like folk music - is a process not an arbitrarily frozen moment in time. WAV - please try to enjoy the England you live in. If you truly don't like it, may I suggest a move to a small town (any small town) in New Zealand? It won't be the imaginary 1950s Britain you dream of, but it does in some ways replicate aspects of 1970s Britain, complete with the "shite comedy" style racism. You'd probably feel right at home. I couldn't wait to get back to good old multicultural Blighty, myself. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 29 May 08 - 06:22 PM Phil Edwards said in brackets," (This isn't strictly relevant, but then what is?) I think we're both making a point, I'm not sure what THAT point is. That being so, it's right in line with anything WAV has been saying. :-D |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Ed Date: 30 May 08 - 04:38 PM Whilst I have no desire to perpetuate this thread, I wish to apologise to 'WAV'. My post (as Guest) about not being able to get a job was mean spirited of me. I've been unemployeyed myself and it's deeply crap. Apologies if I hurt you on that count. However, you still come across as a Fascist, which is a REALLY bad thing. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 30 May 08 - 04:39 PM THREAD R.I.P |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM Didn't realise this one was still open; so much I missed as well... Thanks, ESAM for this: I don't want to live in postwar austerity Britain I don't want recieved pro-nun-ci-a-ti-on on black and WHITE TV and bastard Enoch in the late 1960s with his "rivers of blood" (giving sainted Wolverhampton "A BAD NAME") No. Give me e-ceilidhs Brummie baltis Good Polish beers (and better Polish plumbers) Bhangra beats and Bollywood chic Jerk chicken and dumplings Bagels Pizza (stoned baked) Even the Imagined Village (for the concept if not the execution) English cricket captains with subcontinental names Even Aussies... NONE OF THIS Ruins my Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Or Shirley Collins albums Or Wychwood Hobgolblin Or, By God, Mrs Kirkham's Tasty Lancashire Its all part of My beautiful chaotic multiculti England |
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