BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM

By the way Don, the figures state that most homosexuals are not interested in "marriage", the take up rate being very low; and that the average length of time in a homosexual union is from 18 to 24 months....this compares very unfavourably with heterosexual union or marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

"Sex-starved men who are short of the possibility of female company will sometimes fix their attentions on other men (typically younger males who may superficially appear a bit more "effeminate", in that they have less body hair, more delicate features, etc). If so, does it really indicate that the men engaging in such activities are intrinsically homosexual?"

Not according to Lox n' Don, LH. Now if these priests were to start writing about the dangers and problems associated with homosexuality on Mudcat, that would be a sure sign that they were "on side"!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM

Central's Affirmation of Welcome
We affirm with the apostle Paul that in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female" (Galatians 3:28). Christ has made us one.

As a community of God striving to be inclusive and open to diversity, we, the members of Central Lutheran Church, welcome all people to join us as we struggle to better understand the mysteries of God's teaching and purposes for us. Although our world can seem to be a place of alienation and brokenness, Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged tb Christ to care for, to love, to understand and to listen to each other, regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation, national origin, or economic status. We celebrate the special gifts that each has to bring!

That is well worth posting as a whole piece in my opinion. Even as an agnostic it warms me immensely and I just love totally the idea of "sexual/affectional orientation" as covering ideas of sexuality. That is twice today I have been thrilled to read someone else's post on this thread.

There is great hope for the future. Yes, indeed, it has already started :-)

Thank you for pointing the affirmation out

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:28 PM

I really take issue with the information in the excerpt posted by Keith A of Hertford at 05 Dec 09 - 07:49 a.m. The first statistics quoted are from 1978, and then again in 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, at which time the rate of promiscuity had dropped significantly. That was twenty-five years ago, and a lot of changes can happen in that much time—especially when the individuals involved realize that their very lives may be at stake.

As Samuel Johnson wrote, "Nothing concentrates one's mind so much as the realization that one is going to be hanged in the morning!"

It is not just the certainty of imminent death, it is also the distinct possibility of dying of a lingering and debilitating illness that has no cure that can cause one to change one's behavior quite drastically. I am acquainted with a number of homosexual male couples—committed couples—who, a few of the men admit, had led pretty promiscuous lives until AIDS became rampant, and who then sought a stable, safe relationship with one person, which they also found far more emotionally satisfying.

This is one of the factors involved in the current push for legal recognition of such same-sex relationships.

Both Ake and GfS are vociferously opposed to legal recognition of such relationships and cite the spread of HIV/AIDS as the reason for their opposition (along with the specter of "perversion"), apparently unable or unwilling to acknowledge the obvious:   Such recognition would encourage stable, "monogamous" relationships by granting the legal "perks" that heterosexual married couples have and cut down on promiscuity and the possible spread of HIV/AIDS.

You'd think that if one were genuinely concerned with reducing the spread of disease, one would favor any measure which offers the possibility of doing so.

As to the canard that gender orientation is a matter of choice, that has long since wound up in the waste basket. No competent psychiatrist holds with that anymore.

Although the actual gene may not have been found yet, it is patently obvious that there is a genetic factor involved in gender orientation. It may be that the gene is being looked for in the wrong place. It is quite possible that the crucial gene (or combination of genes) is carried by the mother of a male who grows up to be homosexual. All fetuses start out as female, and those destined to be male (with the Y chromosome) need to receive an infusion of the necessary hormones at the appropriate time in the fetus's development. If the mother does not produce the necessary hormones at the appropriate time, or if the production of the hormones is insufficient, the child is born with a male body (the Y chromosome), but with some of the characteristics—including gender orientation—of a female.

Now—let's hear that chorus of howls and squawks from Ake and GfS.

Don Firth

P. S. And lest Ake or someone pounces on my mention that I know a number of homosexual male couples and tries to make some kind of hay out of it, I know them because my wife of thirty-two years and I belong to a small, inner city church that is a signatory of the "Affirmation of Welcome" (scroll down), and as a result of the welcoming, accepting, and non-prejudicial spirit of the church, a number of gay people have gravitated to it. The congregation numbers around 250, about ten or twelve percent of whom (men and women) are gay. And the pastor has performed at least four marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples (whether the law recognizes them or not). One of the members of a committed same-sex couple is a fine writer and attends the writers' group that meets at Barbara's and my apartment once a month for mutual comment and critique of each other's writing. We know he and his partner quite well.

P. P. S. By the way, Washington State Initiative 71, upholding the law recently passed by the Washington State Legislature, recognizing same-sex domestic partnerships, unlike California's Proposition 8, was passed by the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

Oh .. hnag on ... it's ok keith ... I've found it.

You forgot to include that John R Diggs MD said all this in an article that he wrote for the following website.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html

no bias there then.

Furthermore, he does not say what study he is referring to or where his claims can be verified.

In other words, he has merely given an unsubstantiated opinion.

Unsubstantiated opinions do not serve as evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM

Keith,

As I am guessing you don't own books about homosexual promiscuity, would you mind providing a link to the stats you have provided.

They look decidedly dodgy to me.

The first link I found, (on a christian website) had this to say.

"According to the researchers, 42.9 percent of homosexual men in Chicago's Shoreland area have had more than 60 sexual partners, while an additional 18.4 percent have had between 31 and 60 partners. All total, 61.3 percent of the area's homosexual men have had more than 30 partners, and 87.8 percent have had more than 15, the research found."

This doesn't sound that different to the numbers you would find in any british nightclub.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM

"Both yourself and Lox insist that these priests raped and abused young boys and young adult males because there were no girls available"

No, they did it because they are paedophiles.

And I 've never said anything about adult males.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM

The absence (or scarcity) of available women can definitely contribute to a prevalence of homosexual behaviour among a group of men. There's plenty of historical evidence of that in prisons and on ships during the age of sail. Sex-starved men who are short of the possibility of female company will sometimes fix their attentions on other men (typically younger males who may superficially appear a bit more "effeminate", in that they have less body hair, more delicate features, etc). If so, does it really indicate that the men engaging in such activities are intrinsically homosexual? Or does it rather indicate that they are damned horny, and looking for some kind of outlet wherever they might find it?

Once indulged in, of course, it could become a regular habit. That tends to happen with various types of sexual acts.

There's an emotional basis to sex, and there's a purely physical basis. Both would play a significant part.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

Ake, whether I have contributed anything value to these threads or not is something that, with your locked-and-bolted mind, you are not comepetent to determine. I'll let others judge that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:56 PM

Well you're not often right Don, but I'm afraid you are wrong again.

You have repeatedly on this and other threads alluded that my interest in this subject is related to my sexual orientation.....something you know absolutely nothing about.
On the various threads concerning, homosexual "marriage", homosexual fostering, and homosexual child abuse you have been very active, but unfortunately contributed nothing of any value.

Both yourself and Lox insist that these priests raped and abused young boys and young adult males because there were no girls available.....nothing to do with homosexuality you say....yea right!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

frogprince - Toe Rag's statement is an interesting one. It could mean a number of things.

What does "the greatest thing imaginable" mean? It could mean different things to different people. One person might see it as the largest single physical object we can imagine...in which case, it could be a huge star...or it could be the whole Universe (a collection of objects).

Another might see it as bigger than the observable Universe.

Another might see it as "all that is" (which would include, theoretically, not just the observable Universe, but all other dimensions and universes, all thoughts, all energies, etc).

Some religions and philosophies do see God as "all that is". If that's the way you see it, then no one can deny the existence of all that is, can they? It's self-evident.

So it depends on how you define "God".

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

You're welcome. ;-)

This is why religions (at their deeper level) are essentially concerned mainly with consciousness, and how to manage one's consciousness in the most positive, harmonious, and effective fashion. That is the crux of all the Asian religions and philosophies such as Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, and the Yogic disciplines. It is also the crux of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam...at their deeper levels of understanding.

(On the more surface levels one sees rituals, traditional forms, rules and regulations, hierarchies, etc...but those are the more superficial aspects of religion.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

Ake:

Don..We are not "disagreeing" over whether or not I have homosexual tendencies; you are simply making a statement which you have no way of substanciating and which is quite untrue.

A personal smear,in other words.

I apologise for the use of the word "idiot", an idiot would not be devious enough to use such tactics.   :0)

Ake, I didn't say anything about you being a homosexual.

The disagreement I referred to is about your erroneous contention that homosexual men are the source of the HIV/AIDS virus, and if they were somehow restrained, HIV/AIDS would simply go away – and that homosexuality equals pedophilia.

All I said was that judging from your vociferous presence on the California Proposition 8 (anti-gay marriage) thread, and then again here, with the same ferocity (not to mention cobbled statistics), you seem to be obsessed with the subject.

You put the rest together yourself!   (Sort of a self smear).

Getting more interesting all the time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:19 PM

Little Hawk...

that is so eloquent and beautifully put. It also explains wonderment and hope and, if not, it sure feels like it does

Thank you

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM

"If God is the greatest thing imaginable, he must exist."
ToeRag, I really don't know for sure where you're going. Are you setting that out as as actual evidence for the existence of God?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:05 PM

Are ideas real? Yes. They are very real. They are not physical, but they are real. If you don't think so, take note of what power an idea can have, and how it can change the world.

You cannot find "tangible" proof for either God...or an idea...or a movement of imagination that occurs in the mind...but just because something is not tangible does not mean it isn't real.

Non-tangible things such as ideas and thoughts formed in someone's imagination can have real effect...effect that is soon seen in the world of the tangible, because thoughts affect actions and they also affect one's physical health and well-being over a period of time.

Consciousness rules our reality. It is the crucial factor in experiencing reality. Without consciousness we would not even be aware of anything physical, and the world we experience...for us...would vanish, to all intents and purposes.

And that is exactly what happens for you when you become unconscious. The world as you knew it vanishes. If you remain permanently unconscious, then the world...for you...has ceased to exist, as has life itself.

Consciousness isn't tangible either. But it is real. God, if there is a God, is not to be found in what is tangible, but in the realm of consciousness.

Without consciousness, you could not presently be reading this post...and finding something in it to disagree with! ;-) Consciousness is what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Something is greater if it exists than if it doesn't.If God is the greatest thing imaginable, he must exist. I may paint an imaginary masterpiece, but that only means i imagine that i paint a masterpiece, in fact, since it does not exist, it is no better than my actually existing 'inferior'paintings. A real masterpiece must always be better than an imaginary one!

Note from Joe Offer: this appears to be a quote from St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109) - see here (click)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 12:03 PM

===37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean, and so that can be tested, ===

oh, no, mp, be assured — they are even more shy & harder to catch than Nessy... or God.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM

(sorry for the blank post. I have no idea how that happened. Could it be removed please)

I think what Don(Wyziwyg) is describing is not "his own philosophically unchallengeable postulation" but the general idea of Agnosticism a term forst coined by Thomas Henry Huxley. Many people who are not athetists or theists are agnostics. It is basically saying there is no proof tangible proof there is a God than it is that there is tangible proof for a God. It does not necessarily mean you have no belief but that you have an open mind to the idea until proof shows itself.

I myself am intellectually skepitical about the existence of God BUT also emotionally spiritual so agnosticism helps me allow for the possibility of a God without me being atheistic. Do you get my meaning?

It could well be that there is/is not physical proof of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean, and so that can be tested, but if that is not the case agnosticism can be invoked for many things. I thought Don(Wyziwyg)'s explanation was acceptable as a skeptic.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

===There is as much proof of the non-existence, as there is of the existence, of GOD!..........Precisely none!===

Brilliant, Wyzywig!

So I think I shall take to the worship of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean — there is, according to your philosophically unchallengeable postulation above, no proof of Their non-existence either. Anyone care to join me? — I bet we could get Lottery Money to build a Temple dedicated to Their worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

Eteetera, eteetera, eteetera; what an extraordinary omnium-gatherum ! this is the box in question,I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:56 AM

For some reason I have a skepticism over the figure for lesbian women having relationships with men. I am certainly not saying it never happens, no less than gay men having relationships with women, but I would tend to put them in a bisexuality area than full lesbian. Some women only 'find out' (finally admit) later in life they are 'true' lesbian after many failed and even abusive relatinships with men (from personal experience not anything I have stats for).

And, again, some sexuality is fluid and changes as we go through life. We are what we are at the time but will we be the same at any time in the future? For sure there is research in the whole area about sexuality, it's spectrum and where we as individulas sit on the continuum at any one time. On average women appear to be more fluid than men (but it could be that is women are more open and not as stressed about theior sexuality as many men). Kinsey found a great deal of fluidity within genders, ages and sexualities.

That some lesbians have and do have relationships with men makes them no less lesbian. Ultimately it is about loving women, not hating men.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

I have heard you say so before, but cannot believe it; at any rate, it will not be so in my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:28 AM

""Lox, I linked Christians with homophobes because, if you read the report, it is a Christian movement which is calling for the ultimate legal penalty to be applied to homosexuals. That's homophobic enough for me. What disappoints is that for some of you, the self- assumed tag "Christian" puts them beyond criticism.""

I think you miss the point Paul. Nobody here is actually defending these nutjobs. What you have is the usual knee jerk reactions of a few on both sides.

1. You have the few who seize every opportunity to discredit a belief system which posits the existence of God

2. You have the few who see every comment about any religious sect, as an attack on religion per se.

Two opposing schools of thought which, based on their individual false premises, go to war on practically every thread where any mention is made of religion.

IMHO, the important fact about the "Family" is that, no matter what they choose to call themselves, they are about as far removed from "Christian" as it is possible to be.

Therefor, anyone attacking their aims and objectives is emphatically NOT attacking either Christianity, or religious faith (believers please note).

On the other side of the coin, those who do not believe in a deity, should take a step back, and re-examine their stance on religion.

There is as much proof of the non-existence, as there is of the existence, of GOD!..........Precisely none!

Neither side can ever prove their case, so instead of constantly reiterating "THERE IS NO GOD", it might be more respectful of others' feelings to say "I don't believe in God".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM

A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250- 499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. By 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984.
Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men. But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men. Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men. "

The Health Risks of Gay Sex
JOHN R. DIGGS, JR., M.D.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM

Ah yes here we go ...

.. you mean the 2004 report that was commissioned by the US conference of Catholic Bishops as part of a "Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People".

It is quite a comprehensive report indeed.

The catholic church seem to have done a good job.

Oh yes - I nearly forgot.

It at no point asserts in any way that the priests had a preference for boys.

It does state that 81% of the victims were boys.

Abuse tended to happen mainly in the Priests private residence where the vistims parents trusted they would be safe.

Ake, do you know what children Priests have contact with?

they have contact with Altar Servers, school pupils and youth club attendees.

Do you know how many Altar servers are Girls?

I'll tell you - until 1994 Girls were not allowed to serve at the altar.

And as Smokey pointed out in another thread, girls tend to be mentored and taught by nuns and their activities tend to be run by nuns.

So who is most likely to end up in the circumstances described in the john jay report - Girls or boys?

Who do paedophile priests have access to?


Shall I draw you a picture?


Its like doing the pepsi challenge when there's only pepsi available.

You actually end up not knowing anything about peoples preference.


And your assertions and slander that all homosexuals are more promiscuous than anyone else and that they are all closet paedophiles remain unsubstantiated.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:19 AM

Well, it is rather a wild idea, certainly; but, as you say, one has the option of believing it or not, as one likes!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:06 AM

Interesting that there is a lot of support for the kind of ideas that Ake advances ... in the catholic church ...

... ok ... I'll go and find this john jay report to see what it is talking about.

I wonder if it will show that Gays are all closet paedophiles.

I wonder if I should run a book ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:02 AM

"they need psychiatric help with their sexual problems..."
Now there's a trip down Memory Lane - if you want to visit The Stone Age.
The last individual I heard utter this anachronism was an Irish priest - I'm not sure whether he has been named in the current child abuse scandal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:33 AM

Don..We are not "disagreeing" over whether or not I have homosexual tendencies; you are simply making a statement which you have no way of substanciating and which is quite untrue.

A personal smear,in other words.

I apologise for the use of the word "idiot", an idiot would not be devious enough to use such tactics.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:53 PM

Hey, Ake! Did you know that authorities used to tell adolescents that masturbation makes you go blind?

Add that to your list of crawling horrors.

Don Firth

P. S. "Idiot," eh? Better be careful using words like that in reference to those with whom you disagree or you are laible to have Little Hawk "tut tut tutting" all over you!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:36 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM

My My desperation has certainly set in!
Lox the child abuse figures are not mine, but come from the "John Jay Report", a study into "Abuse of minors by priests of the catholic church in the US" by the John Jay College of criminal justice.
Figures are widely available showing much higher numbers of sexual partners among homosexuals than among heterosexuals

Don, you are an idiot....when are you going to stop making that stupid analogy, I have no tendencies towards homosexuality, I dont want to criminalise homosexuals, I dont hate, fear or distrust homosexuals. They have my sympathy, they need help coping with their health problems, they need psychiatric help with their sexual problems...help they will never get from the Mudcat lynch mob.

My motivation for contributing to these threads, is to try to show that the promotion of homosexuality as "just another kind of loving" is dangerously misguided.
The figures are there for all to see....or to ignore...and at the moment they are being ignored by most people, most importantly the "liberal" media.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

There's a really fierce echo in here!

Akenaton has tried to peddle all this same misinformation before, on other threads. I'd say he's obsessed with the subject.

Interesting. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

Oh and by the way, Yes I'd love it if you'd drew a picture - if only out of curiosity to see what kind of picture you might draw.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

Thanks Ake,

I went to the other thread to find this statistic to which you referred.

The only mention of the figures you put forward was a post written by ... er ... you ...

Interesting aproach.

Make a "factual" claim in two threads, and then if someone askes you for a citation for the claims in one, point them towards the other.

That way you are your own source.

But lets entertain your imaginary stats for a minute anyway just for fun.

It seems that you are saying that amongst Priests and alter boys, and amongst priests teaching in all boys schools, it was apparently found that the majority of the priests were men and the majority of slter boys and pupils at boys schools were boys.

Now I see it!

So homosexuals really are all closet paedophiles ... well I never ...

In the meantime, there remains no evidence that Homosexuals are any more promiscuous than anyone else.

In other words, your whole argument that Homosexuals are more promiscuous and harbour secret lusts for children, rests on the high proportion of Aids casualties amongst homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

"Trying to make homosexuals into some disease ridden population who all have short life expectancy for their sexuality is as perverse to me as blaming those children for feeling so hungry. However, most would understand hunger pangs (not the same as the starving children of course) and not condemn themselves for feeling it."

I'm afraid I can make no sense of that statement MP, would you rather deny the evidence?

The American homosexuals who wish to "own Aids", have accepted the statistics and are trying to bring about a proper medical study of homosexual practise Aids do not bury their heads in the sand....or clouds. They are brave and clear sighted, although their actions are condemned by "liberals" who's political agenda would be in danger by such action.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,maivepink
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

Alas, the fact remains that homosexuality is not a choice. That said, there are lots of health education programmes out there for all sexualties about how to decrease risky practices and practice safe sex. Straight people are not immune to STI's and shorter lives. Just like there are programmes to help people stop smoking.

TBH I totally never thought to include smoking as, here in the UK, advertising is banned and it is not promoted as a lifestyle. Smokers still have a choice however.

I dare say we could debate this whole topic and you will stay where you are with it and I will stay where I am. As I said: I think we need to agree to disagree but I do think I have a certain amount of facts on my side to show it is not down to choice. Risk assesments apply to all sorts of things in life, sexuality being one of them, and believe it or not, more women die in childbirth than do of AIDS/HIV I suspect. And, of course, many children will die before they even get to express a sexuality by not reaching puberty because of all sorts of horrid things. Those are the real iniquities I think we all need to concentrate on. There are enough real iniquities without making some up for groups we may not agree with.

The sad truth too is that most of those children too will have no choice in how they live or die :-(

Trying to make homosexuals into some disease ridden population who all have short life expectancy for their sexuality is as perverse to me as blaming those children for feeling so hungry. However, most would understand hunger pangs (not the same as the starving children of course) and not condemn themselves for feeling it.

Have a good weekend

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM

Hello Lox.....I heard there had been a severe outbreak of civility in your area...looks like you've caught it mate :0)
Never mind I'm sure you'll be back to normal before long.

The percentage reference was from the Irish child abuse thread.
There was a similar case in America in 2004 where Catholic priests had been abusing children.
The victims of abuse were 81% boys to 19% girls. Most of these boys were between 11 and 16 years of age.

Would you like me to draw any pictures?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:24 PM

MP....I notice you left smoking out of your list of unhealthy things to do on a wet sunday afternoon! :0)

Now smoking has a marked effect on life expectancy......it shortens life considerably, but not nearly as much as homosexual practice.

We are taking steps to change peoples behaviour regarding smoking, in the interests of smokers health and the health of society at large.
We have even gone so far as to criminalise certain aspects of being a smoker, yet we remain silent about a sexual behaviour which shortens life by around 20 years, increases the incidence of STDs like sphyllis and HIV/AIDS dramatically; and seems linked in studies to the sexual abuse of teenage boys.

Go figure! and best wishes to you...sincerely....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulojORxW5XI

Excerpt video of the program last night with the description of how the Aids legislation with funding under Bush was changed (away from condoms) and how The Family is connected to Uganda activism of US religious conservatives and the issue of Aids (public bonfires of condoms and anti-gay preaching).

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:27 PM

Lox, I linked Christians with homophobes because, if you read the report, it is a Christian movement which is calling for the ultimate legal penalty to be applied to homosexuals. That's homophobic enough for me. What disappoints is that for some of you, the self- assumed tag "Christian" puts them beyond criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM

All good points Simon. And, ToeRag, maybe it has already begun. Maybe we are already seeing it start.

Edmung Burke said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" and so any start toward changing things and highlihgting hate has to be a start. Education has to be a good start as if you can get rid of some of the ignorances surrounding some of the hate and fear then things can change quite rapidly. Sadly that kind of change can also be resited by those with other agendas.

I would like to think we are seeing the start of seeing this better world unfold, slow though the process is...

Maybe I have to believe that or it all becomes so hopeless a picture

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:33 AM

And now we have to consider, how we are to set about seeing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Simon G
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:28 AM

I like oilism, but how about oilophilia, its our lust for oil the allows us to blinkered to the nature of the people supplying it. Having said that I don't believe that marching across the globe punishing people for not falling into line with us, isn't the way to go.

It is difficult enough to practice acceptance (as per mauvepink) on an individual level. Jesus was right in that the only way to make it work is to love others as yourself; acceptance on its own doesn't survive long. It may come as a shock to some who tout Jesus's name but he was quoting Leviticus, just a few verses from the verse singled out to support punishment of homosexuals.

We seem to find it next to impossible to act with anything other than self interest when we form into groups, particularly when the group is called a country and has a government. We need to change our expectations of governments, perhaps then governments would act differently. What we have know is the alternative were power is everything and the power of the West is a mighty fist which stamps its self-interest on the rest of the globe. This discussion maybe in a good cause, but from a Ugandan perspective I would suggest it is part of the mighty fist, maybe a very small part.

Better to ask ourselves what we can do for Uganda and its people to allow them to move to a place were this proposed legislation is unacceptable to them. If we loved them as ourselves then they would be in a very different place than they are now.

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:05 AM

"oilism" = great term!

That could be a subject in itself, as to how many countries turn a blind eye to certain 'allies' who have oil and a terrible human rights record, while deposing other nations who, while certainly not innocent of human rights crime, are very much less involved in the oil politics 'game'.

In reality it matters not a jot WHO is killing and putting down people for being different than the majority population: they are killing under some banner or other that appears to add legitimacy to the act. It's still wrong.

I would like to think that teaching tolerance - and, even better than that, ACCEPTANCE - is the proper way forward in finally ridding the us of all the various hate messages. Hate can become a lifestyle simply because people choose to follow it's message and principle. It is often based on ignorance and fear (and some of that fear comes from within the person themselves of knowing what they are and not being able to change it). But there are many out there who are good at using that ignorance and fear toward their own agendas. It is comforting to see that most of the posters on this thread, and others like it, do not fall for it :-)

Tolerance, acceptance, love. Three ginormous words that are not easy to live by - and I have had my slippage moments along with most - but at least something we can try and aspire to.

On that note I'll shush!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:39 AM

Glad somebody thinks it is unrealistic. Judging by some of the posts, it would appear otherwise.

ToeRag starts to make a good point about Commonwealth countries having anti Gay laws that started with Colonial penal codes. However, I wouldn't go as far as to blame Great Britain for their retention.

We taught the rest of the world how to divide and conquer, the benefits of winning arguments by tying people to the mouths of cannons and how to increase productivity with bullwhips. It was a popular form of government, not just us...

Mind you, if we were a less interfering nation and more benevolent, the Irish song tradition would have a gaping hole in it's heritage.....

Pip Pip

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:17 AM

"It has gone from questioning the antics of some fundamentalist bigots in influencing a government all the way to questioning the statistics on homosexuality itself."

This is a phenomenon which I have also observed on other threads that you may need to get used to.

"Perhaps a thread to allow people to use statistics to back up their prejudice or otherwise about Gay lifestyles would be a better place to have that discussion."

I have learned that such an expectation is unrealistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM

Of the 53 Commonwealth member states, over 40 still criminalise same-sex relations, mostly under anti-gay laws that were originally imposed by the British government in the nineteenth century, during the period of colonial rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:21 AM

Proof of evolution...

This thread....

It has gone from questioning the antics of some fundamentalist bigots in influencing a government all the way to questioning the statistics on homosexuality itself.

Perhaps a thread to allow people to use statistics to back up their prejudice or otherwise about Gay lifestyles would be a better place to have that discussion.

I am far more interested in how a religious faith based on love and understanding (as claimed) can be interpreted to hate a chosen lifestyle? To the point of trying to get in Africa what they can't get in The USA! (Mind you, many states do execute prisoners, so I do accept the term "civilised" may mean something different either side of the pond....)

There are also those who set out to say that if you disagree with their faith, you are the usual suspects, setting out to put religion down.

Yup, guilty as charged! If you can't win an argument with facts, don't try to win by questioning people's right to say the Emperor has no clothes, (or big white beard....)