BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

Dogmatic?.....moi??

I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?

Your insistance that all is well with the homosexual lifestyle in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is dogmatism!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM

Don..... can you not get it into your skull,that the vast majority of homosexuals do not want a stable monogamous relationship?

According to you, perhaps, but I think all of your "knowledge" (the part you don't make up yourself) comes from reading web sites that support your already formed opinion.

I hear otherwise from real, live people. I'm not afraid to talk frankly with men who are homosexual, and because I don't look at them with prejudice and contempt, they are quite willing to talk frankly with me. Most of them would like very much to have a stable, monogamous relationship with another man. But it's the reactions of other people and their lack of willingness to accept that kind of relationship that makes it extremely difficult to sustain them. Get that? Other peoples' interference!

If there were some sort of legal recognition, or for that matter, recognition by a church willing to do so (such as the one Barbara and I belong to), it would make all the difference in the world; some sorth of social support that would make it easier to withstand the disapproval of the busybodies whose business it is not.

And in addition to that, the figures I posted earlier say that the average homosexual union lasts only between 1 and 2 years!

Recognized same sex unions (whether regarded as legal or not, but recognized, say, by the church my wife and I belong to, or are acknowledged without prejudice by their friends as a couple) tend to be more stable and long-term than many heterosexual marriages.

Barbara had a friend, a boy, from grade school who turned out to be gay. In his mid-twenties, he met another gay man. They bought a house in Southern California, where they are still living. One of them is a college professor (now retired) and the other (Barbara's old school chum) is an expert on English history and American Civil War history. He tutors high school and college students (like kids of movie stars and such) who are not doing well in school. They make a regular trip to England every year, where the college professor is invited to participate in seminars having to do with theater arts. Barbara and I have visited them in California a number of times, and they have also come here to Seattle.

Many heterosexual married couples don't have as stable and loving a relationship as these two do.

Ake, you need to get away from the computer and meet some real people. And instead of being so dogmatic, shut your mouth and open your eyes and ears. And your MIND.

You might be amazed at what you can learn about the real world.

That is, if you are really interested.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

"Foe fuck sake Amos, you cant have it both ways!"

I think that's a matter for Amos to decide in the privacy of his own home ... ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

"On the one hand your team says "It is not homosexuality, but promiscuity", which causes the horrific homosexual AIDS figures.....then you come along and contend that homosexuals in general, are no more promiscuous than heteros."

I wish you would pay attention.

You marvel at my apparent newfound computer literacy, yet you seem unable to read or comprehend written English.

But to remind you (as it was oh so long ago) - and I hope no-one minds the cut and paste job.
__________________________________________

"I would like to clarify a point raised concerning a perceived dispute between whether AIDS is a "homosexual thing" or a "promiscuity thing".


In fact, if AIDS in homosexuals were the result of greater promiscuity we would see the same disparity in the numbers of cases of Ghonnorhea Syphilis and Chlamydia.

However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases.

So it isn't promiscuity that makse the difference.

Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone with any vague understanding of science that Sperm + Blood does not equal HIV. HIV is an organism that infects those to whom it has been transmitted.


So what is the reason for the high proportion of cases of AIDS amongst homosexual men?

I am as interested to know as anyone else."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM

Don..... can you not get it into your skull,that the vast majority of homosexuals do not want a stable monogamous relationship?

And in addition to that, the figures I posted earlier say that the average homosexual union lasts only between 1 and 2 years!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:03 PM

Foe fuck sake Amos, you cant have it both ways!

On the one hand your team says "It is not homosexuality, but promiscuity", which causes the horrific homosexual AIDS figures.....then you come along and contend that homosexuals in general, are no more promiscuous than heteros.

You have one big problem Amos....keeping your team on message...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

"Aids is not a fucking joke Don!"

No one said it was, Ake. But you are the one who wants to keep homosexuals promiscuous by denying gays the right to form stable, monogamous relationships.

AIDS is not a fucking joke, Ake!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

There's no hope for the world, if you lot are representative.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

Aids is not a fucking joke Don!
It is deadly serious, especially for people who habitually take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex and lead promiscuous lifestyles.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

"Do they not realise that in homosexual practice, promiscuity and anal sex go with the territory!..."

Do you not realise that not all homosexual men have anal sex? (Did I just feel a jaw drop somewhere?). Anal sex is not the soul preserve of homosexuals either. But whether they do or not is irrelevant because lots of gay men are dying at the hands of violence just because they are who they are. Why not campaign against the violence that ends so many lives early?

HIV/AIDS not only affects gay populations. No more than other STI's do. It is a HUMAN Immunodeficiency Virus Deficiency virus. It's not a "letsonlypickongatpromiscuousmen immunodeficiency virus"... it affects, ot has the potential to affect, all HUMAN BEINGS.

I sometimes wonder if a virus had come about that excluded the gay populations, sexually transmitted, what would all the straight people have done about it? The fact is there is a disease out there affecting straight populations and they seem to be blase about it, in many cases, and do not use safe sex. Gay males are not the only promiscuous humans out there. And, in some countries, it is not homosexuality that is responsible for the high death toll. It's straight sexual practices and the lack of contraception that is abetting the spread and increasing death tolls among men, women and children.

This is not liberalism. I have no political agenda. But I will stand up for the rights of homosexuals, wrongly accused, as much as I will for Christians, wrongly accused, because the damage being done is not by them but by closed thinking (in the least) and hateful propaganda levied at them. As I have said earlier in the thread, there are lots of dangerous, risky and deadly lifestyles that are actually chosen. Why do people not campaign against them and leave people who are doing no harm to anyone alone? I still maintain they have no choice over being homosexual, but if they choose to take risks with their own lives with unsafe sex, like so many straight people do, then that is thier choice and no-one elses.

Why do some so want to blame others all the time instead of putting their own house in order? It truly saddens me.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM

"However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases."

That should have read "young women and older teenage girls".

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 PM

Dear me Amos,

The very idea of Ake disapproving of Free Speech!

Are you not aware of how his freedom of speech has been ruthlessly surpressed on the Mudcat by the henchmen of the Liberal Fascist contingent?

Boy - it's a harrowing tale - but he's been strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

Still no evidence Ake?

Yawn.


I would like to clarify a point raised concerning a perceived dispute between whether AIDS is a "homosexual thing" or a "promiscuity thing".


In fact, if AIDS in homosexuals were the result of greater promiscuity we would see the same disparity in the numbers of cases of Ghonnorhea Syphilis and Chlamydia.

However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases.

So it isn't promiscuity that makse the difference.

Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone with any vague understanding of science that Sperm + Blood does not equal HIV. HIV is an organism that infects those to whom it has been transmitted.


So what is the reason for the high proportion of cases of AIDS amongst homosexual men?

I am as interested to know as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

You miss th e point altogether, Ake. Evidently you would like to have some Cloud Chief decree how people may live and what should happen.

Some of us cleave to a different model. Equal rights under the law, and personal responsibility for the consequences.

Your argument, extended, would make the Founding Fathers responsible for revery hurtful thing ever said, because they made alegal principle of free speech. These are two different things, man.

The right to legal blessing does not relieve married people of personal responsibility for how they live their lives. But it DOES, as Don pointed out, tend to reduce the incidence of promiscuous transmission of STDs. Why is that hard to understand? Why do you think homosexuality, by its nature, is any more prone toward promiscuity than heterosexuality? I have seen huge amounts of promiscuity among heteros. I fail to see why you think homosexuals would be any more promiscuous. In fact, given that hetero sexuality is so much more heavily promoted in ads and magazines and such, it would probably be mor einclined to promiscuous behavior.

So I don't think your arguments hold much merit here.

Obviously, given the mechanics involved, homsexual sex will probably include a higher frequency of anal penetration than hetero sex. Not exclusively, of course, but greater. If said homosexuals are in a monogamous relationship, with legal structural support, the chances of this being a transmission vector are greatly reduced. Not increased.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

Ake, I don't see how your first paragraph in the above post correlates with what Amos says in his most recent post. In case you need one of us walking brain-dead liberals to read it for you, what he is saying is just the opposite of what you keep saying. And, yes, I agree that Amos, as usual, is very much the voice of reason.

Just thought I'd point that disparity out. The rest of your post is just more of your usual inability to reserve judgment in the face of incomplete but ongoing research, along with your thesis that homosexuals need to be marginalized and oppressed for their own good.

Where have we heard that sort of thing before!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM

Maybe I should clarify my final paragraph.

"liberals" care more for the political rights of minorities like homosexuals, than in caring for their personal medical wellbeing.

They are perfectly happy to see them...."equal but dead"

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM

Amos.....Nice to hear from you, nearly always the voice of reason.
I agree with your sentiments regarding tolerance and compassion....nicely put sir.

In saying that, we must never blind ourselves to suffering and death in puting these two emotions into practice.....must we tolerate the obscenity of watching thousands of young men suffering a degrading and painful death because our tolerance and compassion for the people involved will not permit us to question the lifestyle which brings such pain and degradation.

Is our compassion and tolerance helping homosexuals to lead longer or more healthy lives? I think not, we simply carry on with the status quo, close our eyes and our minds to the figures and allow young men to die for our political "principles"

Several of the "walking brain dead" have suggested that it is not homosexuality but promiscuity or anal sex which makes the HIV figures so bad.

Do they not realise that in homosexual practice, promiscuity and anal sex go with the territory!...Risk taking also goes with the territory; and tho' I know only a little of psychiatry, I have read that risk taking and promiscuity are also symptoms of manic depression.

The homosexual gene will never be found, because it does not exist and if the "liberals" cant find it, they will invent it.
Why can they not see that a major medical study into homosexuality and HIV/AIDS would be in the interests of homosexuals and society at large.....is it because the results of such a study may not suit their political agenda....even if it were to save millions of lives...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 02:39 PM

GfS, when someone starts farting around with my name, then I know I've scored big, because getting personally insulting and abusive is all you've got. You're displaying what looks a lot like a temper tantrum.

And if I'm taking a long time responding, it's because I was off-line. Eight hours of sleep, among other things. After all, my life, unlike yours apparently, is not composed entirely of sitting at my computer. I DO have a life in the real world. Besides, I know that trying to set you straight is impossible because your head is made up and all the scientific evidence in the world to the contrary will not change it. You will persist in believing what you WANT to believe.

The operative word in my post above is "MAY" (not have been found). Unlike you, I am trying to be fair and objective. There are geneticists who maintain that they HAVE found the gene, and there are brain researchers who have found that there is a consistent difference in a lobe of the hypothalamus between heterosexual and homosexual men that they maintain must be the result of genetic influence. But not all scientists agree.

So—If I was operating with the kind of "scientific integrity" that you operate with, I would be making the flat, unequivocal statement that the gene HAS been found.

Read the rest of my post, the part about the possible mother's role in fetal development. As I said, they may be looking for the gene in the wrong place.

And Ake—I don't dispute the fact that there is much more HIV/AIDS among homosexual men than among heterosexual men. What I do give the lie to is your insistence that the virus springs up spontaneously with homosexual activity where it did not exist before. You know better. Or if you don't, then you're scientific education has been grossly neglected.

By the way, there IS one group of homosexual men in which the HIV/AIDS virus does not exist:    those who are in committed, monogamous relationships, which they tend to regard as marriages, whether the law recognizes it or not. No. No AIDS there. There's a lesson in that.

Don Firth

P. S. Why do I—why do any of us waste our time arguing with these two (yes, I WILL use the word, since, by its dictionary definition, it is the word that applies) BIGOTS?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM

Scientists knew that pluto existed before they saw it through a telescope.

The likelihood in the face of evidence was so strong that finding it was inevitable.

The Gay Gene hasn't been seen through a microscope ... yet.

It won't be too long before it is found.



Ake has established one fact. That Gay men suffer from aids more than any other demographic.

This fact has no bearing on any of his slanderous claims about gay peoples habits or inclinations, and he has yet to provide any other evidence except that provided by Church organizations and right wing political lobby groups. No actual studies or statistics exist to support his view.

The official mudcat hairdryer, useful for making a lot of noise and producing hot air and not much else besides.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:54 AM

is Homosexuality a natural phoneme in nature, I think so Homosexuality is widespread in the Animal world.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

MP, there's no real science or logic in GfS's theories. She/He just makes it up as he/she goes along, using pseudo scientific language in an attempt to disguise the nonsense spouted.

You only have to look at the constant repetitive allusions to "evidence" which turns out to be unsubstantiated opinion from anti gay so called scientists, who coincidentally turn out to be intimately involved in fundamentalist right wing "Christian" sects, and are feeding into their prejudices.

Our two resident misfits are the only ones in the army who are marching in step, so they would have us believe, and one of them even has the nerve to cite himself as an evidential authority, giving a link to his own posts on another forum, as a source for the same posts on this one.

That's carrying the circular argument one step too far, and if these two told me it was raining, I'd not believe them without looking out the window.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:29 AM

It should be obvious that HIV/AIDS are correlated to promiscuity, not homosexuality. Since heterosexuals have the option of legal marriage, they tend to develop toward it. If homosexuals were equally entitled under law to marry, the incidence of HIV/AIDS would probably decline!

ANd I think you will find, if you examine it honestluy, that what most people her "promote" is not homosexuality but tolerance and compassion. Remember those?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM

I think the world makes sense without God, it's when we bring him/her into it, that the confusion starts. Who is God ,what is God, where is God, should we not perhaps bury God?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:10 AM

""So I think I shall take to the worship of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean — there is, according to your philosophically unchallengeable postulation above, no proof of Their non-existence either. Anyone care to join me? — I bet we could get Lottery Money to build a Temple dedicated to Their worship.""

Smart arse comment missing the points at issue which were:-

1. Those bastards are NOT Christians, nor anything recognisably relating to faith in a deity.

2. Non believers need to stop crapping all over people of faith, because their point of view is JUST ANOTHER BELIEF.

Now go join whatever you like, but don't shit on the human race and call it Christian.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM

"Hey, I just read Jim Carrol's post, as we cross posted"
Hey, I just cross-posted with one of the homophobic bigots I was writing about - coincidence or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:17 AM

Guest from Sanity... you wrote "No, it's something that people get into because a part of them did not develop and mature naturally, while they were 'emotionally focused' on something in their formative youth, that they could not let go of. USUALLY, resentment, often unforgiveness for a perceived wrong, by that parent, of the same gender as themselves, or an idealistic calling...and instead of overcoming it, coupled with feelings of inadequacies, they turn to others of the same sex, to deal with their sex drives".

My question to that would be: So all other animals who practice homosexuality also have the mental capacity and psychological abilities to go through this process too? I actually doubt that and I think, of all the studies there have been on behavioural imprinting and the triggers for sexuality, none have come up with empirical evidence to support it.

The 'gay gene' search may not actually turn up a single gene, and it may not even be a consequence of being on a sex chromosome, as it could be the combined effects of several gene groups. Work is ongoing in that area. Most gay people I know, men and women, knew they were gay before they ever had an idea about sexual actions.

One thing I would postulate though is that homosexuality is certainly NOT a mental illness. I, personally, still am of the opinion that the genetic model fits far better not just for human but in other animals too.

Best wishes

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:01 AM

200!!
Hey, I just read Jim Carrol's post, as we cross posted. A perfect example of what I just posted in my thread!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:59 AM

Akenaton, If Don wants to believe that AIDS/HIV is not prevalent in the homosexual community, because his political bent says he can't admit that, he won't admit it... no matter what stats you quote from any non partisan, impartial medical source.

If he wants to 'support' the homosexual community, for whatever reason, well, knock yourself out! Nobody on here would call you names, or think ill of you, for doing so. But, really, don't try to convince us that you can mix politics with science and come out with an impartial, accurate anything! That being said, Don is free to believe anything he wants to believe..and he does.

Some on here are blaming Catholics, some blaming the Irish government, some might even get around to blaming the Irish, in general..so what??
I already got called names for saying that in the Catholic clergy, there were SOME 'bad apples'..and to one idiot on here, was reason to call me a bigot!! I think he wanted me to condemn the whole of the Catholic Church, probably because they are not pro homosexual!..Who knows?? Who cares??
You know better, I know better, and others know better. Some people just want to suck their thumbs, and not accept FACTS...and think you are picking on them, because you post them(facts).
As far as the issue of the death penalty for homosexuals, that seems pretty far fetched...unless you are building up a new country, where
the leaders see homosexuality as a destroying factor, such as may be the situation here. Those who are already in a decaying society, will of course, vehemently object. That being said, I personally DON'T SUPPORT the death penalty for homosexuals. But those who do, probably see them as a threat.
What I really see, is that every time the subject is brought up, it gets heated, and the name calling begins, and of course, facts get ignored, and those presenting the facts, are labeled as bigots, haters of 'progress', 'old fashion', religious nuts, etc, etc..
However, in most of my posts, with understanding, I think I've shown more compassion,(one poster even remarked about it on the 'Prop 8' thread), than those who are trying to defend homosexuality...and most all the time, they don't even see it!
...but then, they are the ones who are still trying to justify their existence(homosexuals).
Oh well, it was good to see you on here, trying to reason, with the hostile and unreasonable.....
Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM

There is something deeply offensive in witnessing two homophobes (one recently 'out-of-the- closet, the other not yet having the bottle to own up to being one) pontificating and moralising about the sexual orientation (whether chosen or genetic) of others. Mind your own ******* business.
No doubt these two boyos would describe themselves as 'Christians' In Ireland we've had a bellyful of homophobic 'Christians' who have raped and abused their way through generations of our children, while at the same time pontificating on the 'sin' of homosexuality.
They even managed to make hetrosexual sex something dirty and unpleasant in the eyes of their congregations - a'necessary evil'!
In the end there is little to choose between racism and homophobia; both are judgemental, oppressive and dangerous, and both ruin lives.
I suggest it is this pair who need to 'get help', or maybe a humanity transplant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 AM

I don't understand your point Don.
My stance has always been that the homosexual lifestyle causes massive rates of hiv/aids in those who adhere to it.
It is therefore unsafe and unhealthy

About why hiv aids starts in two healthy people I do not know, but apparently new outbreaks usually start among the homosexual community.
The important bit is that homosexual practice unsafe and unhealthy

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:42 AM

Don Froth is taking an unusually long time responding. He must be wearing out his computer looking for that gene. He'll come up with a 'study', probably funded by ACORN....maybe even Al Gore.

But the FACT(remember those??), That which determines gender is found in the genetic code. Simply, 'not believing' the FACTS based on a political outlook, gives you NO SUBSTANTIATION to base your 'premise' on. Then you insist you are 'right', insult those who disagree with you, and call them 'bigots' and 'homophobic'.

You, by nature of these tactics, insult the intelligence of any sound thinking person...including yourself!!(But you being a 'sound thinking person' is unsubstantiated too).

I don't feel like 'debating' this with you any longer! See professional help!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:49 AM

Don First:'"Although the actual gene may not have been found yet, ....."

Enough said!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:38 AM

In answer to GfS's latest spasm about same-sex orientation be a matter of choice, I reiterate a paragraph from one of my posts above:

"Although the actual gene may not have been found yet, it is patently obvious that there is a genetic factor involved in gender orientation. It may be that the gene is being looked for in the wrong place. It is quite possible that the crucial gene (or combination of genes) is carried by the mother of a male who grows up to be homosexual. All fetuses start out as female, and those destined to be male (with the Y chromosome) need to receive an infusion of the necessary hormones at the appropriate time in the fetus's development. If the mother does not produce the necessary hormones at the appropriate time, or if the production of the hormones is insufficient, the child is born with a male body (the Y chromosome), but with some of the characteristics—including gender orientation—of a female."

Boys who turn out to be gay often tend to display atypical behavior for boys long before puberty occurs and before they have any knowledge of or interest in sex.

####

Whether you know what it was historically called or not, Ake, "spontaneous generation" is the belief that certain organisms can be generated by non-living matter or by decaying matter. After a pile of garbage sat somewhere for even a brief time, rats and mice, flies and all sorts of other bugs would appear. Somehow it didn't seem to occur to many—including, amazingly enough, Aristotle—that the vermin were attracted to the garbage, not generated by it. They believed that such vermin were spontaneously generated by the garbage.

As cockamamie as this idea was, it was genererally believed until well after the Renaissance (note that Hamlet, feigning madness, cautions Polonius to not let his daughter walk in the sun, for ". . . if the sun breed maggots in a dead dog. . . ."), and even though many "natural historians" (early scientists) called it into question, it was finally shown, once and for all, to be bogus in 1859 by Louis Pasteur.

If two men who do not carry the AIDS virus have homosexual relations, neither of them will contract AIDS as a result. That simply does not happen.

Ake, whether you know what the concept is called or not, your constant harping on statistics that purport to indicate that homosexual activity by itself can bring about the sudden appearance of the AIDS virus is obviously what you mean to convey.

And it is BOGUS, Ake, and your know it. Even if you don't know what to call it.

Join the 21st century.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:32 AM

Often not. If one is focused, to form an 'attitude', that one obsesses on, a lot goes by, that they miss, in maturing, while emotionally focused.
True Story!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:46 PM

People become homosexual because they were focused on an idealistic calling during their formative youth, and they haven't overcome the effects of that??????????

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:22 PM

Mauvepink:"...Alas, the fact remains that homosexuality is not a choice. That said,......."

No, it's something that people get into because a part of them did not develop and mature naturally, while they were 'emotionally focused' on something in their formative youth, that they could not let go of. USUALLY, resentment, often unforgiveness for a perceived wrong, by that parent, of the same gender as themselves, or an idealistic calling...and instead of overcoming it, coupled with feelings of inadequacies, they turn to others of the same sex, to deal with their sex drives.


Like it or not, that is the truth. When politicized, it becomes a 'civil rights' issue, instead of a mental health issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM

"I would appreciate an explanation of these statistics from a supporter of homosexual practice. "

Most people here neither support nor detract from sexual practices as far as I can see. (Practice makes perfect.)

If the issue is AIDS/HIV, then of course 'lifestyle' will come into it. If the issue is homosexuality, than that's another thing. Hence, I will hereby declare that I am not in favour of AIDS/HIV or any other infectious disease whether it is transmitted sexually or otherwise.

I'm not homosexual, so basically that's got nothing to do with me. These arguments have been addressed ad nauseum, repeatedly, over and over again. Not one thing has changed. People aren't wearing condoms, HIV/AIDS rates are still too high and the heterosexual population is as at fault as the homosexual population.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:08 PM

"You seem to be trying to push your notion that the AIDS virus is spontaneously generated by anal intercourse between two males. Which is to say the AIDS virus suddenly exists as a result of the act where it did not exist before!"

I know no more about "spontanious generation" than I do about why these homosexual/hiv figures should be as they are, please dont put words in my mouth.
I would appreciate an explanation of these statistics from a supporter of homosexual practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

If this is the case, why are we still promoting homosexuality as "safe and healthy", why are we fostering our children into such a lifestyle? Why are we attempting to normalise this lifestyle by redefining marriage to accomodate it?

No one is promoting homosexuality as "safe and healthy" as an alternative to heterosexual sex, which is what you seem to by implying (that wouldn't sell, anyway). And with proper precautions, it is just as "safe and healthy" as heterosexual sex (even if it disgusts you, which is what this is all about). And who is fostering our children into such a lifestyle? No one I've ever heard of. And no one is trying to "redefine" marriage. "Include" does not mean "redefine."

Plots and conspiracies. It's gotta be those Liberals!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM

Achey... "safe and healthy".... it is safe as long as neither has aids. Same for the hets. You gotta think without the box.

Oh, yeah... you can't see out of the box you are in.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM

Don, we cross posted. Would you like to explain the CDC figures?

The website I linked to was as you say, but the figures and articles on that website, were from emminent and independent doctors and health experts, including some from CDC,

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM

Indeed, I did not express myself very well in my last post.

What I meant was, that when population percentages are taken into account, the incidence of hiv/aids and other STDs is massivly larger among homosexuals than heterosexuals.

If this is the case, why are we still promoting homosexuality as "safe and healthy", why are we fostering our children into such a lifestyle? Why are we attempting to normalise this lifestyle by redefining marriage to accomodate it?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:38 PM

Ake, I seem to be more computer—and internet—literate than you are.

The "first one that came up" is the Family Research Council, a conservative, Christian right group and lobbying organization. It was formed in the United States by James Dobson in 1981 and incorporated in 1983. The group was designed to be a lobbying force for conservative legislation on Capitol Hill. In the late 1980s, the group officially became a division of Dobson's main organization, Focus on the Family, but after an administrative separation, FRC officially became an independent entity in 1992. Its function is to promote what it considers to be traditional family values.

The FRC promotes socially conservative views on many issues, including divorce, homosexuality, and abortion.

Your second link is to a site that hides its identification, but is funded by two American pharmaceutical companies, GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer.

You seem to be trying to push your notion that the AIDS virus is spontaneously generated by anal intercourse between two males. Which is to say the AIDS virus suddenly exists as a result of the act where it did not exist before!

The possibility of such a thing as "spontaneous generation" is a Medieval belief that was finally laid to rest by Louis Pasteur in 1859.

Sure, Ake, this stuff is all over the internet. You can also find passionate and powerful sounding arguments for the prophecies of Nostradamus, the End of the World on December 21, 2012 (12/21/12), that the moon landings never happened, they were all cobbled together at the Disney Studios, and that the earth is a) flat, and b) round, but hollow.

And you posted a lot of your "statistics," carefully selected and edited by you on the other thread (Prop 8). You're just recycle your trash.

Don't waste peoples' time with this crap!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM

The figures are horrific regardless of whether the contact is homosexual or heterosexual.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM

"Male-to-male sexual contact accounted for 53% (28,700) of estimated new HIV infections in 2006...."

Hmmmm... maybe if same sex civil union was legal and TOLERATED, such relationships would last longer and reduce the spread of aids?

After all, if it's just the gays spreading aids, something is fucking wrong. Go figure.

What about a sexual ID card? Ya wanna fuck someone, ya gotta show em yer card. Straight, gay or bi. Bi-curious could be a sub-classification, but when you make up yer mind, ya gotta get a new card. And if you change yer mind and ya wanna get a new card, ya gotta take an aids test.

Hey! I got an idea. Ya gotta get a new card every so often and you gotta pass the test! A whole new government department! And, since just about everybody wants to fuck, the revenue would be astronomic even with low fees.

I am an idea man!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM

When the percentage of homosexuals in the population 2-3% is taken into account, the figures become horrific.

New infections are falling worldwide, except within the homosexual population.
Why does anal sex between men and women not produce these results?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

"HIV risk factor: sexual orientation
In the United States, the group with the highest rate of HIV infection is men who have sex with men (CDC, 2005). This group has the highest rates of unprotected anal sex, which is a behavioral risk factor for HIV transmission. In most regions of the world, however, the group with the highest rates of HIV is people who have heterosexual intercourse."

from


http://www.apositivelife.com/forasos/demographic-risk-factors-for-hiv.html

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:56 PM

"Male-to-male sexual contact accounted for 53% (28,700) of estimated new HIV infections in 2006. CDC's historical trend analysis indicates that HIV incidence has been increasing steadily among gay and bisexual men since the early 1990s, confirming a trend suggested by other data showing increases in risk behavior, sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), and HIV diagnoses in this population."

These figures are from CDC would one of you dreamers like to explain why this nice safe healthy lifestyle produces these figures?

This question is the major reason that these threads exist, not really much to do with biblical teaching
BTW the figure of 53% is rather conservative, I have seen others up to 71%

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Go look for them, even Lox is becoming computer literate so it shouldn't take you too long to get the hang of it.

Seriously Don, they are all over the net.
first one which came up

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM

Oh, yeah? WHOSE figures?

Don Firth