BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM

"Do you think the power of whatever happened to them was greater, than that of being homosexual??"


Instead of asking them why don't you just look at history and the many famous homosexuals who covered it up and married women and even had kids by them.

The power of cutural taboo and denial are two things not to underestimate.


It could be comparable to chinese teachers and academics "confessing" during the cultural revolution.


Sometimes people will say anything when the pressure to conform becomes too great.


Its a crucial issue for a young gay man ... come out and face the music, or stay in and live the easy life ... I don't know what I'd do.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:38 PM

Ahh, It seems that the only posters, are the homosexuals, who were not 'born' that way, but opted for being homosexuals, after the fact....which is indicative of the hostility, in replying to those, who are not homosexual...except for Don..which in deed is very interesting, because, and without ANY contentious intent, I have a question to ask him.

You posted that the persons you knew who were ex-homosexuals did so, in the course of being 'saved'. So my question is somewhat two part, and being as you say you are Bible literate, and attend a Christian church, the question is, according to what I believe was the tone of your post, regarding those two, do you think their being 'saved' was sincere, or valid?....and if not, why?....and if so, then what do you think happened, to cause them to also renounce homosexuality? Same question to Joe Offer.
Do you think the power of whatever happened to them was greater, than that of being homosexual??

Only questions.....not trick questions, nor baiting, okay?
Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:07 PM

"What a screed of misrepresentation from the three posters above.
They are not worth the bother of once again refuting their shite."

Which is to say, you don't have an answer.

The data I gave in my last post is dead-on accurate, and it blows your contentions (speaking of "shite") right out of the water. Give it up, Ake. History is passing you by.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:55 PM

What a screed of misrepresentation from the three posters above.
They are not worth the bother of once again refuting their shite.

Fortunately all my posts are available in context in this thread and in all the others to which I have posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:06 AM

Mexico allows "the free uniting of two people" and become one more place in the world where human rights has overcome repression of equal rights.

I thinks it's a great step forward. Even the UK does not allow such marriages but does have the civil partnership legislation in place to try and cover it.

It appears that liberals may be all over the world! I can hear all the kicks and screams in Mexico as I go out to work.... ;-)

I wonder which country will be next?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:06 PM

Oh I forgot - and you went on about Tinkers being drug pushers and thieves in another thread.


Each time a minority is brought up Ake, it is you who brings them up.


You don't bring them up in threads about minorieties, you bring them up as scapegoats in threads on other subjects.


When new threads are initiated todiscuss the issues which you raise (and which you claim are suppressed) your voice is notably absent.


So it is in fact you who seizes on minority issues for your own political purposes.


And this is so well evidenced on the mudcat that I needn't bother with any links.

Just check out Akes posting history.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:59 PM

What a vivid imagination ...


... I dread to think what happens when the flies are down ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:56 PM

Ake:    "The Homosexual marriage issue is a very good example of a minority being dragged kicking and screaming to claim 'rights' which hardly any of them want."

Really? Some 18,000 homosexual couples in California got married during the brief time that the law was in effect before out-of-state religious groups squelched the same-sex marriage law with Proposition 8.

Anyone who is really interested in reducing homosexual promiscuity and transmission of HIV/AIDs ought to be in favor of doing whatever is possible to encourage stable, monogamous relationships.

No, "liberals" are not "dragging" same-sex oriented people "kicking and screaming" into claiming their civil rights. The move toward same-sex marriage and equal legal rights has been initiated by gays and lesbians themselves. That is not just an opinion, it is historical fact.

I don't know about the other states where same-sex marriage laws have been passed, but in Washington State where I live, although the state does not yet recognize same-sex marriage (yet), the recently passed domestic partnership law has produced a definite increase in the number of same-sex couples who have applied for such status. And there has been an increase in the number of marriage ceremonies requested of churches that perform such ceremonies since the law went into effect. Recognition by law as having the same legal rights as a marriage, plus sanctification by a church, whether the state recognizes the relationship as "marriage" or not. And that's since November, when Initiative 71 (sponsored by the same out-of-state religious groups who sponsored Prop. 8) was defeated by the voters and the recently passed domestic partnership law went into effect.

Sorry, Ake. You are picking your "facts" out of your own wishful thinking.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

Fuck it.....Knew I had missed one!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

"I should think the psychiatric problems would be multiplied for homos or heteros"

Did I say pompous? I forgot to add delusional!

Dr Ake, is this area of research covered in your joint paper?



"My main reason for becoming involved in these threads, is to try to illustrate how minorities can be manipulated by political ideologues, in this case "liberals"".

Or in other words, to bang on about your oft repeated, monotonous, one dimensional view that your freedom of speech is somehow restricted by a conspiracy of "liberal Fascists".


I remember when I first encountered this.

It was on the gollywog thread when you referred to Azizi for no other reason than it was a thread about racism and she is black.


Then on the G20 Demo thread you introduced the hot potato of immigration into a thread which otherwise contained no mention of imigrants, and you started blaming the credit crunch on them.


On another thread you claimed to know all about how Moslems think they're better than us ... because your mate from Goa said so ...

But most relevantly, on a thread about the church and child abuse, you stated that this happened because of Gay men joining the priesthood rather than come out of the closet, and then, being stuck for other gay men to have sex with, abusing children to get their kicks.

This developed on a couple of different threads, and you have basically held the view throughout that Gay men will naturally predate on children if they can't get another man.


In this thread you would have carried on with the same view if it were not for the diligence and patience of a few of us who gave you so much rope for such a long time that you tied yourself in knots with it.


Now you are trying to pass yourself off as friend, health advisor and psychiatric researcher working to improve the lot of Gay men and women world wide.


But your true colours are simply too well documented on this website.


You loathe what gay people do and you think they are all closet paedophiles.

And your imagination has furnished you with vivid enough depictions of how this works that you are "disgusted" on a fairly consistent basis.


Myopic doesn't cover it ... you have a blind spot the size of canada that obscures your vision and allows you to pretend you are being honest and objective by shutting out all evidence to the contrary and by shutting out anyone who makes your position look shaky ... which is just about anyone who disagrees with you ... or indeed engages with your ideas intelligently for more than 5 minutes.


You remind me so much of Nick Griffin and the way he behaved on question time, that it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that you were him.


Good luck fella.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

I'm sorry about ignoring your points...I got side tracked whackin' the flies.

I should think that changing sexual orientation must be very difficult especially after a number of years, and I dont really think it would always be in the interests of people to change orientation, one way or the other.

I should think the psychiatric problems would be multiplied for homos or heteros

My main reason for becoming involved in these threads, is to try to illustrate how minorities can be manipulated by political ideologues, in this case "liberals"
The Homosexual marriage issue is a very good example of a minority being dragged kicking and screaming to claim "rights" which hardly any of them want. Our resident "heterosexual homosexual activist" Mr Peekstock being a typical example of the genre.

I'm amazed that you can joke about a disease which is showing a steady increase in the figures and continuing to decimate your community.....Are you really happy to allow these figures to climb, rather than address the reasons why they are so bad in comparison to heteros. Your remark about "virus ridden homosexual practice" may have been a joke, but it betrays a lamentable lack of understanding about the real extent of the problem and a lack of will in addressing it.

Honestly, does what I have written strike you as bigotry or hatred?
If it does, I'm sorry, I dont mean it as such.

Perhaps you would like to explain your position, or even comment on my linked figures on homosexual marriage take up rates...and why homosexual rights should be different to other sexual minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:25 PM

Ah, a smile from Ake to refute my humourlessness jibe.

And if Lox is right, just be careful I don't smile back. The cowboy was always my favourite one in the Village People.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

Did you hear a buzzing noise just then Smedley?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:10 PM

Thats because "virus riddled homosexual practice" describes your view of homosexuals, and as you have said, this is something that you abhor.

The rest of us (including Smedley, who by the way is pretty well informed on the subject of homosexual practice) see this phrase for what it is - utterly preposterous.

And the only way you can cope is to suggest verbal fisticuffs.

As if to remind us that there ain't no gayness in you ... no sirree ... you're the rootinest tootinest cowboy in the wild west!!

You're so manly!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

Still waiting for your thoughts on my earlier post. Don't derail yourself via an evaive detour into humourlessness, it doesn't suit you.

And there is levity in everything, although never *just* levity.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM

Well....Do you want a serious discussion, or a verbal punch up?

I dont see much levity in "virus riddled homosexual practice"

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM

Ake, I deeply and humbly prostrate myself in apology. How remiss of me, one of those inflicted by the 'scourge' (to use your own term), to introduce some humour here. Obviously I just don't feel bad enough about myself.

Oh, and in my earlier, lengthier post I raised two perfectly serious and relatively unexplored points which you have ignored in favour of your rather limp swipe at my decision to resort briefly to levity.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 05:41 PM

MP...I dont think anyone in Uganda is about to insult you...do you?

The insults you refer to, you obviously expect to come from those who are engaged in discussion with you and who do not share your opinions.

I do not believe in Capital Punishment, for homo or hetero criminals, no matter what they have done, but the US still retains the "death penalty" in many states I believe.

Please dont think that you are being bullied, I was simply pointing out how easy it is to "load" a seemingly innocuous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 05:22 PM

It isn't bullying .. its ... god - what is it ...

... bloody minded, myopic, fearful, pompous, farcical, absurd, ...


... I can't wait tto read Ake and GfS's research paper on the causes of homosexuality.

I bet there's a big section on bumming.

And another big section on priests and choirboys.

There will be nothing about africa, nor on the sexual health issues of adolescent girls and young women.

There will be a big prologue explaining why all inconvenient evidence has been ignored.

And there will be a post script in which the two authors massage each others egos.

Assertions in Chapter 2 will be backed up by references to the same assetions made in chapter 1.

The asertions in chapter 1 will come with recommended further reading ... (chapter 2) ...

When the whole thing is dismantled piece by piece by a legion of critics, the authors will ignore it and form their own club.

They will stick out their tongues and defiantly announce "well we didn't want to play with you anyway" before mincing off to conduct some more 'research'.

The world will look forward to theiir conclusions wwith eager anticipation.

No one will findd it remotely funny ....


... no really ... they won't ... especially when Ake starts reasserting that paedophiles are just gays who don't have access to grown ups.

... and they'll start to feel sick when he starts describing in lurid detail the scenario that 'disgusts' him the most.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:56 PM

Akenaton wrote "For daring to allow gay folk breath!.........I have read nothing here about anyone wanting to deprive homosexuals of "breath"(code for life)

May I remind you of the topic of this thread? Hanging by nature would deprive those hung of their breath!

It's not just thread I have stood up for gay rights either so please don't arrogantly, and wrongly, presume "The bracketed part of MP's last sentence is slipped in to remind everyone that those who oppose her views are homo haters and would like to see homosexuals dead.

The tactics of deceit". I have been called for holding the views I have many times. It will happen in the future too. Please do not lecture me about deceipt or how I choose to have discussion with people. When you have the art right yourself then you may lecture me. I refuse to get into name calling. I have been pleasant to you and others on this forum who have disagreed. I have presented my side and that is all. Bullying me now will not change my mind nor endear your arguments more.

You have a wonderful time doing what you do but I think if you check you will see I have not changed my stance once throughout this thread and nor have I changed my tack or opinions.

Whether I am right only time will tell as regards the research and nature but I am far happier being me with my views than it seems you are being you with yours. I agreed to disagree with you way back, on pleasant terms. Bully away and try and change my words. Enjoy!

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:43 PM

I doubt anyone could argue over the cornucopia of evidence that shows estrogen has on foetuses. For sure male sperm rates later in life and the actual testicular disorders can be affected by estrogens and xenoestrogens during fetal and neonatal development. There is also much research been done on the effects of estrogen on brain development in utero and on the gender sensitive areas of the brain. There is no doubt that hormonal 'soaking' or 'drops' can affect foetal 'hard-wiring' of both genders and much more research will come to light as to the mechanisms as more work is done. Some things that are reasonably constant and statistically evidenced are index/ring finger ratios in gay and straight populations. This is obviously set in utero as is handedness (which many will know, despite barbaric ways to stop people using their lefts hands in the past, failed)

The chances that sexuality is fixed in the foetus, due to hormonal affects during cerebral development, are pretty high BUT quite how it happens and when is open to much more research and discussion. The topic is not without some controversy even within science. As with gender too, which may or may not be linked to the genitals a child is born with, you cannot change the hard wiring.

Occasionally people's hard-wiring gets distrupted, say after a stroke, and the nerves find new pathways if the survivor is lucky. Some cause personalty changes but seldom is sexuality reported to be disrupted. That said, sexuality is often a neglected topic for the stroke survivor.

In short. Nature will have its way!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM

Another example of how not to hold a discussion....by MP

This is just my opinion when all said and done. It does not matter that I have to be right. It does not affect me. But being open minded about homosexuality with never do me any harm either (except from the insults I may have to suffer for daring to allow gay folk breath!)

For daring to allow gay folk breath!.........I have read nothing here about anyone wanting to deprive homosexuals of "breath"(code for life)

The bracketed part of MP's last sentence is slipped in to remind everyone that those who oppose her views are homo haters and would like to see homosexuals dead.

The tactics of deceit

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

Sanity.....Very interesting contentions,I can certainly see the sense in what you've written.

My problem is,how do I get myself into the position of accepting as fact that babies can be born homosexual?
I do understand that a mothers fears, phobias,revulsions etc may be transfered to the baby in the womb, but it is surely much more likely that mothers feelings are transfered psychologically after birth and during the first few years of life ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM

Sedley, if we are to leave this thread wiser and better informed, are sentenses like the one above(in brackets), really necessary?

If you want an adult discussion on this subject, surely you can dispense with that sort of attitude. Leave that to the politically motivated.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

Thanks for the welcome & the hooray. I don't think I've ever been hoorayed before.

(note to certain contributors: "being hoorayd" is not an arcane, virus-riddled homosexual practice...)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM

GfS, once again you are trying to put words in my mouth.   (PTUI!!!).

Reread what I posted at 21 Dec 09 - 09:37 p.m. I describe an thoroughly peer-reviewed experiment at "curing" homosexual subjects that totally failed to effect verifiable cures and resulted in a high percentage of recidivism, the next highest percentage simply choosing a life of celebacy, many of them developing psychological problems including clinical depression, and six of the subjects committing suicide.

And as for the two people that I mention (one "former" gay and one "former" lesbian), it was pretty obvious that there was no cure at all. From the time they were "saved" (i.e., "accepted Christ"), they denied their homosexuality vociferously and abstained from sexual activity entirely. Now, you may call that a "cure," but most reasonable people would not. It is a simple case of denial, and if you are any kind of competent counselor, you would see that.

Don't try to make it look like I am agreeing with you when I am not!

Don Firth

P. S. And again you cite Cohen, the "reformed" homosexual, whose method of treating his homosexual subjects is to cuddle and caress them and assure them that they are loved! He has long since been shown to be an exploiter and a charlatan.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' WIllie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 12:33 PM

You know, in the time this thread has been waffling...

They could have given the Act Presidential assent, hung a few and repealed the ruddy thing by now!

I think one way of drawing it to a conclusion is to thin out the contributors a bit;

If you have stated that you do not understand homosexuality, then -
a) If you have no wish to try to understand the lifestyle choice then STOP POSTING
b) IF you don't understand but have empathy for the disgusting actions of so called Christians then KEEP POSTING

If you think you understand homosexuality then -
a) If you are not gay then STOP POSTING (what exactly do you understand then?)
b) If you are gay then KEEP POSTING (about the role of these so called Christians, not about asking people to understand your lifestyle. Start another thread if you must.)

Oh, heck, 99% of opinions would disappear. I would be told I am limiting free speech and this thread would continue as an excuse for discussing gay issues....


When, forgive me if I am wrong, we should be discussing the role of so called Christian sects in promoting death sentences for things they don't understand.

ZZZZZZZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:36 AM

A few thoughts here:

Somebody implied that Don F is alone on this site. I want everyone to know that is not the case at all. It is just that he speaks very well, for me and probably for others.

It also occurs to me that if sexuality were that easy to turn, does that imply that straight people can be talked out of hetereosexuality? I can't quite picture a straight person being subjected to 'aversion therapy' so that s/he becomes gay. I can understand that the person could be turned into celibacy!

How about it, GtS and ake? Want to try a little aversion therapy? Think it'll work?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:12 AM

You know Elspeth I actually think that a lot of people begrudge homosexuality becaues it's 'sufferers' really know how to have a great time! Gay people know how to have a fantastic time and not take themselves too seriously. I am almost sure jealousy plays a part in some dissenters thinking often...

I prefer to miserable than gay ;-)

But seriously: I too respect those who are openly out but not throwing it in people's faces. Wearing sexuality on your sleeve can be very unattractive but being proud of who you are should never be put down.

I'll shush a while now. I have posted three times in the last hour!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:59 AM

I just want to say hooray for Smedley.
Primarily for posting something that didn;t involve any name calling =) I'm sincerely interested in the topic of this thread if the name calling etc could just stop!
And secondly it's nice to see someone out, and humourous about it (I'm liking the cathedral visiting- I find it particularly enjoyable myself, along with not being smited that is =D)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:40 AM

Lox... please refrain from architcturalism. They really cannot help liking buidlings! I thinks it's in the bricks ;-)

(I love sitting in empty churches personally)

Time we had a light note on here :-)

lol

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM

Welcome home Smedley :-)

I do not think it is reversible as I do not think it is a condition. I do think some people's sexuality is 'fluid, but bisexuality has that covered generally. As I said much earlier in the thread, of course gay people still marry opposite genders. It's not really rocket science that they have and do. Lots' of people try to 'conform' to the het stereotype and it impossible to to do, eventually letting their own trues sexuality through. Some stay in the closet, Some kill themselves.

To those who think a person can change sexuality then why do people kill themselves rather than become something else? If it were that simple I am sure they would just change. Change is better than death. I postulate they do not change because they cannot change. So why should they be expected to or need to?

Yes, some people are unhappy with their own sexuality but I further postulate that the unhappiness is far more environmental/cultural than it is intrinsic. Politics are not involved, liberalism, idealism, feel-gooding sisterhoods or anything. It's a humanity issue. Let people be who they are and keep your nose out of their affairs. Look after your own more and the rest will fall in place. It's really quite that simple with sexuality.

I, too, have heard of people 'reforming' their sexuality.... but I jave not believed it for a minute. And, even if such phenomena exist I think it must be extremely rare. In sexuality no-one should look down on anyone. We ALL have more more in common with each other than we do not. Those differences are often what makes life interesting and relationships worth having (at all sorts of levels)

This is just my opinion when all said and done. It does not matter that I have to be right. It does not affect me. But being open minded about homosexuality with never do me any harm either (except from the insults I may have to suffer for daring to allow gay folk breath!)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 10:35 AM

Smedley,

It isn't the name calling that worries me, Its the brazen Museum Visiting, meal eating, beach siting and cathedral exploring that horrifies me.

Sickening!!

How do you live with yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:33 AM

I have been away for a week (on holiday with my partner - being gay all week in another country, doing REALLY GAY things like visiting museums and eating in restaurants and sitting by the beach and even looking around cathedrals with not one single bolt of lightning hitting us) and this thread is STILL high on the first page???

You people really ought to give it up.....but as you clearly can't or won't, and I am one of the very very few who write on this topic here who is happy to declare their homosexuality, here are two more thoughts to digest.

Firstly: GfS' contentions about 'reversible' sexuality, and all the accompanying gubbins, starts from what is to me an utterly false premise: namely that same-sex attraction is a 'condition', the 'causes' of which need identifying as a prelude to their eradication. Whatever the attempted niceities of the argument, those with GfsS' mindset have a vision of an ideal world where everyone is straight. Needless to say, I do not think that would be ideal.

Secondly: if sexual orientation can be changed, as is thought in some quarters, should we not be seeking to change (at least) some unhappy heterosexuals into happy homosexuals ? There is at least one precedent for this - in the 1970s feminist movement there were a minority of women who found heterosexual sex so at odds with their political views (they were, in their own eyes, sleeping with the enemy) that they ended their couplings with men and formed lesbian relationships instead.

That particular historical moment is an issue which many contemporary feminists prefer to downplay, as it feeds into stereotypes of feminism equalling 'man hating', but it did happen, even if only in a tiny number of cases. Interestingly, and pleasingly perversely, this strikes me as directly comparable to the man Joe Offer knows, who has 're-trained' himself to live a heterosexual life because he could not equate his ideology with his established sexual desires.

I would be interested to know what others addicted to this thread make of these points. The name-calling (and yes, I know I am guilty of this too) won't take the discussion anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 02:30 AM

Well, good God! You, (Joe, and even Don), are now sounding like me! My biggest contention was that, yes, it is reversible....and look at all the 'back-biting' that has gone on! ..and Don, you argued adamantly that they couldn't change, and you knew two who had, all along! So, pardon me, if I seemed to get a little,..umm,...irritated at you. So very strongly, you argued on behalf of a lie! Okay, enough said about that(I hope).

Now, to answer Amos,...actually, in light of the post, in which Don claims he knows of two that have, Joe knows one, I posted a link in which a doctor, was, but is not now, and offers therapy to those(Dr. Cohen), I know two ex-homosexual males and three ex-lesbians, plus the last of the article Don posted, I think its safe to say, YES, it is reversible....BUT, what could be the CAUSE, if it is not genetic, but apparently people are, in fact, born that way?.......Let's take a stab at it, because no research, that I know of, has pursued this possibility(read:probability).

Just follow me through this, if you will....it won't hurt!(wink)

Being as the interests of homosexuality are concerns of the 'religious', psychological, scientific, and sociopolitical communities, somewhere lays a bridge of understanding that speaks to all their 'concerns'.

For those born, from the womb, homosexual:
Let's start with some basic facts, that we know...'Energy can neither be created nor destroyed'..right?(Einstein)....So, does that include our own very life force? Perhaps, when that life force, some say 'God'(as the giver of live), some say, the collective conscientiousness, you might argue, a bunch of chemicals re-acting randomly, but somehow, that life begins to take shape, in the womb. That energy, or conscientiousness, grows, and is nourished from the mother, and basically, is one with the mother, or at least certainly attached, right? Whether or not, you want to argue for what it is, or is not, or when in becomes 'a person', as the pro-life, or pro abortion folks do, is not the issue, right now..ok? The fact is, mama's blood is his or her blood, from the same place....so are the electrical impulses, that run the neurological system too. ..Still with me?.. Those are the little impulses that take messages to the receptors in the brain...matter of fact, they help set up the receptors, sorta like programming a hard drive, from one computer to another...ok? So far, simple enough.

When the life's force began, it is a blank slate, as far as we know, unless you want to argue that it came from a collective    conscientiousness, such as what people might consider 'God', but nonetheless, it is a blank slate, not knowing, or even having a concept of right, or wrong, or good, or bad, or up or down, etc, etc.

Now, we have all heard of babies being addicted to certain substances, such as crack, or heroin, or whatever, if the mother was using, during her pregnancy..the child is born already addicted, because the receptors have been chemically set up to need whatever substance the mother was taking...right?

What if she was not taking any substances, BUT she(the mother) was very upset, and/or distraught emotionally. Would that set up, the receptors in the child????...from the neurological impulses she is sending throughout her body???? From all indications (and studies), YES!...Now we're getting somewhere!.....What if>>>>>>>

What if the focus on her being upset/distraught, was the man who impregnated her, justifiably or not,..or just perception, real or imagined(not the issue), or even another man in her life, or just men, in general? It could be a frustration, disappointment, a feeling of self inadequacy, guilt...anything...wouldn't you say those receptors are now getting programmed?..and could inhibit male traits in the fetus' neurological system to be affected?? ..and thereby cause a 'short-out' in other systems being formed, in the child?

Okay, I was going to go on further, but I didn't want to have a giant post. Maybe little doses of new things to consider, and the possibilities of ramifications, set in motion.

If you want, we can expound, and take it deeper, as to the psychological traits, and/or set up, and the 'why's', and inherent outlook that the child is going to be born with, and the frustrations, he may encounter with his father, that develops in the formative years.

But first, we can talk about it INTELLIGENTLY, and calmly, and I'd love to, but not to a crowd of contentious opinionated people. Keep an open mind. Just what I posted here, so far, should give pause to some serious thought...might even break open some new doors of perception. How 'bout it??....Let's get heavy! Ask more if you want more...but let's not argue, let's discover together?

GfS

P.S. PBS also had a program, dealing with the same thing, for what its worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM

As far back as Kinsey, but more recently others as well have hypothesized a sort of "grey area" in which gender orientation is somewhat wavery. Not quite the same as "AC/DC" perhaps, but where the person can swing either way. Here, a "cure (?)" may be possible. But I posted a link on the Prop 8 thread (can't find the post where the link is right now, but I'll keep trying) to an article about a thoroughly peer-reviewed attempt to cure homosexuality through psychotherapy. It involved counseling, along with a lot of aversion therapy (electrically shocking the subject when they viewed "inappropriate" sex objects).

Results? I don't remember the exact figures, bit the study included 202 self-proclaimed homosexual men who, incidentally, said they wanted to be cured (self-selecting sample, perhaps?). Anyway, after treatment, the recidivism rate was something like 68%, some like 20% gave up sex entirely in favor of celibacy, none entered a heterosexual relationship, a substantial percentage of them (including some overlaps) became clinically depressed or developed other psychological problems, and six of them committed suicide.

The experiment was declared an abject failure.

I'll keep searching for the link (even if that is interpreted as my being "obsessed," but truly open, inquiring minds do want to know).

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, in my checkered but long career, I've met two people, one who said he had been gay, and another "ex-lesbian," who both claimed they were now cured ("being Saved" had something to do with it). If you think that ex-smokers are rabidly opposed to smoking, you ought to have met these folks! They absolutely raged and screamed and frothed at the mouth if the subject of homosexuality ever came up!

What was that Shakespeare quote about protesting too much?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 09:24 PM

Well Joe, the only response I have to your comment is the old yorkshire saying:

"there's nowt as queer as folk!"

... oops ... there goes another can of worms ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, I can't say I've ever thought of Ake and GfS as trolls. I really think they believe what they're saying - warped though their thinking may be....
I don't like the idea of people calling other people trolls in the first place. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Recently, I've been corresponding with a guy who was a friend of mine when we were students in a Catholic seminary. At the time we were in school, I think people would have called him a "liberal intellectual." He left the seminary and was in a homosexual relationship for a number of years. More recently, he became a conservative and then married a woman, and he says he's been happily married for a number of years. To me, his political and religious views are distressingly conservative (and he thinks mine are distressingly liberal), and he is staunchly anti-homosexual. He's the first "reformed homosexual" I've known; and frankly, I don't know what to think. He certainly seems sincere.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM

It was not me who first identified them as such, 999. I thought about it some and came to the conclusion that my informant had a sound theory. The behavior is typical:   take an "anti-" position, keep repeating the same things, don't answer reasonable questions, and use lots of insults and personal abuse, especially commenting on the stupidity of people who obviously have the facts. They've done it, both together and separately, on a number of threads now.

As long as I'm here,

This is the sort of thing that homophobia encourages.

The Story

Wait for the sarcasm. It'll be right along.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:38 PM

hi 999, yes...I rethought that particular phrase somewhat, but only after posting XD. Nevermind, it's accurate I suppose.
Shame my offer of slightly alternative conversation hasn't been taken up...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:36 PM

Did anyone else notice that Ake just posted to a music thread (the Big Boys)? Coincidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:28 PM

Although I disagree with both GfS and Ake on this issue, I see nothing that makes either of them trolls, Don, no offence intended to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 07:57 PM

You're getting a bit funny in your desperation, there GfS.

No, I didn't go "through the forum" counting your posts, you idiot my dear fellow. It's a pretty easy tally to get if you know how, and it only took me about twenty seconds.

You're getting a bit frantic, it would appear. You and Ake have long since been rumbled as a pair of trolls. Has nothing to do with anyone other than the two of you trying to highjack the thread.

There is no serious discussion here. You two have rendered that impossible, as you will undoubtedly attempt to do on any future thread touching on this subject.

The interesting part is that both of you have chosen this subject as a wall to tag, like a couple of juvenile delinqents with cans of spray-paint. Speaks volumes about you two.

TTFN

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 07:51 PM

"if people are going to be educated about the ins and outs of peoples sexual preferences"

Interesting turn of phrase . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

ok...I know this is going to seem a little bit off topic (seeing as the current topic appears to be verbally kicking the shit out of eachother) but on the healthcare/education side of things: Don't you find the whole obsession with male gay sex quite worrying? What I mean is, in sex ed it get banged on and on and on about...and lesbians don;t even get a mention. Just a thought that if people are going to be educated about the ins and outs of peoples sexual preferences surely it should run across the board? From a purely educational and safe-sex perspective it is surely important to cover all of it? For instance, stop obsessing over condoms for STI prevention in gay and straight sex without so much as mentioning dental dams and suchlike.

Now I know that is somewhat off topic...but it seemed an interesting point to me, and it might be something related to talk about that gets away a bit from the gay men obsession and the personality clashes, at least for a little while.

What are your thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 06:07 PM

Don, stop 'recruiting'. We were on a good roll, exchanging good information, and every time you're caught, accusing, and usurping the thread, you resort to the same, worn out tactics, instead of moving forward, and thereby hijacking the thread to focus on only your point of view....which has been proven, either inconclusive, or divisive, just to steer the attention to you. May we go on??...with your imperial permission..or do we have to endure more of your off topic meanderings?

You've stated your political stance...ok..You've posted links, that come to no conclusion, as said in those links....you've gathered 'support' of those who think that non bigoted, dissenters, are bigots and haters...and brought nothing new to understanding the CAUSE, of what you so ignorantly champion. Just take a rest, and let's see what may come out, that may INFORM you...instead of spouting your non-supported opinions....and this time let them, or us speak, without jumping down our throats. YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING....God forbid! ....not to mention, there may be something of interest to OTHERS.....unless, of course, keeping people uninformed is your method of control. You have offered NOTHING,except your link, which was not authored by you. Why don't you ALLOW a discussion on that link, which is what was being done. Perhaps, you did not even read the entire link, yourself, or understood the ramifications of what they were saying. Forget character assassinate Ake, or myself, or anyone else disagreeing with you. You're wasting time and space, in doing so. Now, I'll get around to your question, when I'm finished with Amos', though I think in answering Amos' questions, yours would be answered as well!!

Look at this quote from you..."GfS has posted only four times on music threads. The vast majority of posts have been dedicated to the trying to quell the same-sex marriage issue.

Ake's history is pretty similar. His posts tend to deplore homosexual practices, implying they actually create the AIDs virus, and seem to dwell on the lurid details of anal intercourse.

What's the word? Obsession? Fixation? Fetish?"

You actually went through the forum COUNTING OUR POSTS...THEN ACCUSE US OF BEING OBSESSED???????? Look who is calling the kettle black!
(and BTW, your count is wrong).
Chill out. When I get back, and have the time, I'll post, what I did before, and lost.......jeez!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

No one responded to them? Ake, you responded within TWO MINUTES! lol

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:53 PM

"Have either of you posted any positive information or ideas to this thread?"

Err, yeah: how about taking your obsession with men bumming each other elsewhere! Even the most pro 'gay rights' peeps I know don't bang on about gay gay gay stuff as relentlessly as you two!

You go *on and on and on* about it. Man, thinking about men bumming each other must take up every bloody waking moment of your life!
It's OBVIOUS to everyone that you are utterly OBSESSED with gayness/bumming/mens willies & bum-holes/err etc.

Do something else for a change, take a break, find another obsessive hobby like trains or bird spotting or something..
For everyone's health & peace of mind! Jeeze man!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:37 PM

Well, there we have it again! What is Ake's post of 21 Dex 09 - 04:49 p.m. if not a perfect example of the vitriolic abuse that he complains of?

Right again, Crow Sister. They should get their own forum. Or, perhaps, move in together.

Don Firth - has left the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 04:49 PM

Sad bastards, get a life.
If you've nothing to say dont say anything.
Have either of you posted any positive information or ideas to this thread?
Aren't you ashamed of your vitreolic abuse....not even saved by a modicum of wit.....and you wonder why no one responds to you?