BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:50 PM

Mauvepink, great.

I'm just watching an episode of Lewis in which the plot hinges on the strife between religious rules and the love of homosexuals, with the message "Love is never wrong".

It seems to me that the people who take the view of the fundies on homosexual love don't know love when they see it. It is quite worrying to think that they cannot think of any sort of sex without stripping it of love - and the attitudes of those who espouse celibacy and abstinence and impose restrictions on others' expression of love whether hetero or homo tend to back this up.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM

"There is nothing we can totally trust, not the sky, not the earth beneath our feet and not always our fellow man. But ya still gotta trust somthing or someone somtimes. "

Did the sun rise this morning? You think it might come up again tomorrow?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:10 PM

Correct on all points, mauvepink.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

"it sure·as·hell IS somethingist!"
How about establishmentist - where do I sign?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM

"Would the world not be a better place without religion"?

No

No more than the world would be a better place without homosexuals.

Or that the world would be better without, say, folk music!

Religion in itself is not bad. It's just a different way of living

Homosexuality is not bad. It's a different way of loving.

Neither are practiced by everybody and neither would suit everybody, obviously, but that is no excuse for not accepting those those that do.

The major difference, as I see it, is that one can choose to be religious and which religion one follows. Homosexuality is not a choice. It is 'merely' one form of innate sexual behaviour, not just in humans, but in many other animals. One that, in humans, can be intenseley loving as anything experienced by heterosexuals. Surely to love someone, each other, and ourselves, is all a part of the human condition and is far better than hating. I am not talking about just sexual love here but the love of a person in all it's forms.

Love is also at the centre of what Christianity surely is about? God so LOVED the world that he sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ....". And Jesus said "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another". Jesus said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". Love, love, love... no mention of hatred and killing each other over sexuality that is not a choice.

Jesus message was one of love and forgiveness, not hate and condemnation, and I never read anything issuing from his mouth that suggested we should judge anyone.

Life, with all its complexities and diversities, is so rich and wonderfully challenging that there is room for everyone as long as they are not hurting others. Religious or not, when we challenge love we challenge the very thing that might just seperate us from the other animals.... love, spirituality, and the ability to put things right that have been wrong for a long time.

Sorry to have 'gone on' but, in my humble opinion, there are far worse things to fear than homsexuality going on in our world. Live and let love.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:51 PM

Except for odd little attempts by a minority to do something like pass this law, Uganda is one of the better run and more progressive countries in the area. (
I know a woman who spent a number of months there working with the govt. as they try to modernize.)

As more information comes out, it begins to look like this proposed law would never have been put forth without the 'guidance' of some of the American evangelicals...such as "The Family". The seeds of hate were planted and nourished in complex ways...but we KNOW the justification for this law come from a twisted understanding of Christian theology.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

Can we trust that there is a God

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

Am happy to have faith in my fellow humans - politicians, businessmen and bankers and clergymen excepted!>>>

Come come, Jim — that's - er - well, - er - not racist or sexist or ageist: bit it sure·as·hell IS somethingist!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

Donuel
I trust you had a pleasant day?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

faith to me is trust
There is nothing we can totally trust, not the sky, not the earth beneath our feet and not always our fellow man. But ya still gotta trust somthing or someone somtimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM

"It would not be a better place without Faith."
Totally agreen, as long as 'faith' doesn't have to be religious faith.
Am happy to have faith in my fellow humans - politicians, businessmen and bankers and clergymen excepted!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:26 AM

It might possibly be a better place without religion. It would not be a better place without Faith. One is not necessarily the same as the other.
IMHO. YMMV. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:09 AM

Would the world not be a better place without religion

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:26 AM

This is the book and the author who has uncovered the C Street evangelical links to Uganda and other foreign policy fiascos.

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 08:38 AM

I mean females in the Womb

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:46 AM

All males are born as females, has that something to do with it? the devil a care. eat the rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:51 AM

Death penalty for American Evangelical missionaries. might be a better idea. who has proof of god? the devil a care.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:15 AM

Well said again, Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:09 AM

Religious fundamentalists don't do themselves any favours. In fact, they don't do religion in general any favours. You read something like this and end up thanking god you are not religious......

I must say, I am always waiting hopefully for influential religious leaders such as the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury to say "not in my name."   They are too busy sorting out who owns the bigots to worry about how their clubs affect real people....

This Ugandan thing? Disgusting that these so called christians are aiding and abetting what would be illegal in their own country. Here in The UK, you can be prosecuted for crimes abroad. If the Ugandan government execute anybody, the happy clappers should by any moral code I can think of be guilty of aiding and abetting murder.

If anybody can find anything in the Bible that says homosexuality is wrong, the answer is simple. The bible is wrong, irrelevant and can we please move on.....

There is no god in any sense that man has described, and these fundamentalists from Dumbfuckistan are criminals with a disturbing mental health issue.

(A church should be a place of sanctuary, not sanctimony.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:34 AM

Bear in mind that the law also includes a three year prison sentence for anyone who becomes aware of a male homosexual or a lesbian and does not inform the authorities within 24 hours. So if you are not prepared to turn someone in for death, you have to face a punishment yourself. Heaven help any Ugandan Underground Railroad.

The death penalty does have limits on it, apparently. It is for people who have had a relationship with an underage person of the same sex, have relationships when they know they are HIV positive, and one other case which escapes me, but probably includes force or non-consensual sex.

Part of the arguments about it concern the idea that homosexuals groom a child from a school and promise them rewards for "converting" another child, and "once two children have gone, the whole school is lost". There is a strong idea that homosexuality is a learned or chosen behaviour, and not inborn.

But even so, it is appalling, and that it should be derived in the first place from British colonial law, and now American interference, is more so.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:48 AM

""It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable...."
Thanks Lox - something to think about."

No - it couldn't mean that someone feels uncomfortable.

That isn't what tolerance means.

But in many diffferent contexts, such as where people disagree, or where people have different ways of doing things - like washing up ... tolerance can mean "being accepting and respectful of how others are different to you."

A classic example might be a married couple who get on 90% of the time but are 10% incompatible. It could be that a common source of tension is the manner in which the dishes are washed. I do it one way and you do it another.

If both are intolerant of the differences then they might end up bickering and falling out. If they learn to tolerate each others differences then they will probably succeed as a couple.

A gay couple might learn to tolerate each others differences.

A woman might tolerate the flirtatious habit of a close male friend - or vice versa.

We are all different and there are some people who instinctively feel uncomfortable about homosexuals and homosexuality.

I consider myself lucky for not being afflicted by any such handicap.

But I don't judge anyone who is.

I do react strongly when people decide that they have the right to Judge homosexuals, when misinformation is peddled about homosexuals and I stand up to people who would like to limit the civil rights of homosexuals and victimize homosexuals.

By "tolerate" we do not only have to mean "put up with" which is how you are understanding it.

A tolerant society is one where those who disagree or are instinctively incompatible with homosexuals learn to be respectful of their civil rights and accepting of their place in society and learn to coexist peacefully in the workplace and elsewhere with gay colleagues etc.

It is unrealistic to expect everyone to be friends with everyone all of the time.

That's where the notion of cultural and political tolerance come in.

You asked "Is it a crime?"

Society doesn't tolerate crimes. It does tolerate my point of view and yours and it tolerates both our sexual orientations too regardless of what they might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:37 AM

"It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable...."
Thanks Lox - something to think about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:17 AM

Well spoken, Jack The Sailor and Lox.
Truly, they are words of wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:57 AM

Well, I've found some stuff about 'The Family',an alleged 'Christian' organization that supposedly has funded the Ugandan politician that introduced the legislation. And the cowardly Rick Warren has refused to condemn the proposal. Absolutely noxious, this should be fought tooth and nail.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:41 AM

Some here.

Takes a few seconds to load.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:26 AM

Names, please. Who are the American evangelicals who support his proposed law?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:16 PM

Whta would one expect from the country that gave the world Idi Amin?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM

Leveller, regarding your post of 01 Dec 09 - 03:27 a.m.—and to others—there are plenty of Christians who are speaking out strongly on this matter. But apparently, they are far less interesting to the news media than are those relatively few loudmouths who want gays lynched.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

There is no room in old time religion for either tolerence or positive spin. Zero Tolerence - No Spin!

This year we must re double our efforts to ban the pornographic secular Christmas carols that are a Abomination to our Lord!!

Strike from thy lips "Don we now our gay apparel"
The word gay appears in no fewer than 4 carols and must be purged and destroyed...and that goes for that fruity reindeer Prancer too.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

Jim,

"Doesn't 'tolerance' imply that homosexuality is a crime or a weakness?"

Not always.

It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable or finds it hard to believe or empathise with homosexuals, yet they accept and respect that homosexuals have equal rights and are therefore accepting of them.

My closest friends are 90% compatible with me. I tolerate the other 10% with no difficulty.

Do you see how I am using the word?

It doesn't always have to be a negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

I wrote about this last week. If that is what the people of Uganda want, they should have it.

If on the other hand this is what the C Street family wants for the people of Uganda but the people do not, it would be biblical justice to execute one C Street family member for every gay Ugandan executed.

starting with Inhoff

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM

I do not recognize that translation Wolfgang. Shouldn't it be "Shall die" or "let them die" rather than "Must be put to death?"

But even so, the context of Mark 7 clearly shows that Jesus is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, he is not telling them to go out a kill those who openly disagree with their mothers. He is telling them to lay off his people for such a minor thing while they let more clear and blatant sins go unpunished. To me this is a major implication of Christ's message, one that is often ignored by those most loudly professing to follow him.

Do you recall "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Do you believe that he meant that mercy only apply to harlots? It applies to all sinners. Christians forgive. They do not mete out punishment. Punishment is the purview of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

Remember...Jesus, whoever and whatever he was..or wasn't.. didn't write books. People wrote what they HEARD about him, from 70 to 250 years after his death. In fact, most of the Christian bible was compiled in very strange ways, and a lot of it says what certain clerics and those who directed those clerics wanted said.

You can find almost anything in it you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:40 PM

Recent events in Ireland are, in my opinion, the strongest case yet for the church (any church) having no say whatever in the sexual behaviour of the people - ever again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

Wolfgang is probably right in quoting Jesus as approving of the death penalty in that case, though I know of no Christian administration which imposes it for cursing one's parents. I think he also said something about millstones. That's not the point. The thinking Christians have gone a long way beyond the letter of the Bible, old or new, and have accepted- proclaimed- that what was offered was not a prescription or a set of inviolable rules, but a framework to guide thinking. Christians of this sort have been at the forefront of many of the great campaigns- against slavery, against capital punishment, for social justice, for civic freedoms, against poverty, for equality. But there still seems to be something of the attitude that diehard Communists used to have in the seventies- to deny the evidence of Stalinism in their case. It was all propoganda, you can't believe the enemy. So some people seem to see any criticism of the fundies as criticism of themselves.

It seems to me that "Christian" is not even a useful label- You can't tell anything about a person's beliefs from it, as it encompasses the range from one extreme to another. This is one of the extremes; I'm very happy that most Christians here are much closer to the opposite pole. And it's nice to see people with the courage to speak out on the subject, even if it exposes the raw truth that you can't have unity with polar opposites.

I think the Ugandan obscenity is best seen in terms of a movement which is competing for members, rather than trying to lead them. In societies in which men feel they have to prove their masculinity- often because they are economically marginalised in post- colonial societies- they may well suffer from gender insecurity and fear of being identified as un- masculine. Failing to support hardliners coukld be one way of avoiding the charge of softness.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Tinker
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM

Here is one church speaking out...House of Deputies president condemns proposed Uganda anti-homosexuality legislation

Churches that are not making fundamentalist statements often get little press coverage for their stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:00 PM

I think that the Ugandan Government has the right to pass the laws as they see fit. But they should not stop at gays. What about the fornicators? The adulterers? The shrimp eaters? I am sick and tired of "Christians" who treat Leviticus as and a la carte menu while completely ignoring the message of Jesus. Executing people for their sins is not loving thy neighbor as thyself.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Thanks for the links Alice.

Christ, that rats' nest needs fumigating, doesn't it?

They make Fred Phelps look like a boy scout.

Seems like a good argument for the real Christian Churches to make a very loud show of excommunicating the whole vicious evil lot.

What happened to the popular myth that the USA separates religion fom government?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

Well I cannot speak for everyone, but I sure can speak for me, I have rattled cages where it helps most over and over. I know the Clintons, my daughter worked for Hillary in DC when she was a senator, My message went out quite clearly on a direct path. And I am absolutely sure the real faith community will be heard , that is all faiths.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM

This all comes back to the political agenda of the cult on C Street called The Family. Google and read about it. I was raised a Christian (Catholic) although I'm not a member of any religion now, and I don't think most Christians would find what is happening in Uganda or within "The Family" to 'their taste'.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

So who's crties of protest are you hearing?


... what's that sound? .... wait ... I heard a pin drop ...

That was the sound of the christians not protesting.

Everyone else was just being sileent as a mark of respect.

Not too many Mudcatters, it seems to me, are in a position to know what the 'common' Christian thinks about this. I know that my sister's church is discussing it and asking how they can help get across the message of love and acceptance.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:51 AM

Ummmmm, wasn't Moses in the Old Testament, Wolfgang? I.e Before Christ? The teachings of the Old Testament differ greatly from the New Testament. Or are German Bibles different to English ones?

And it seems to me that Jesus (if Mark was indeed quoting Jesus - I'll check that when I get home) was demonstrating to the Jews that they had put aside (many of) God's commands, and using the extreme example of putting to death anyone who cursed his parents to press home his point. I don't see any approval, tacit or otherwise, in there.

But then I'm not seeking to see that approval. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:45 AM

Don, just google "C Street The Family Uganda homosexuality" and you will find many articles about the support of this law and the people behind it in Uganda by the Republican politicians in the US who are member of the "Family", an evangelical cult in DC on C Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:19 AM

Mark, Chapter 7: 8-11: "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men. And he said to them: 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

It seem to me that Jesus quotes Moses approvingly here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:08 AM

I'm a Christian, and I don't like this idea that they might do in Uganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:41 AM

The death penalty (as a maximal penalty, depending on the case) for homosexuality exists in the following countries:

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Nigeria, Mauritania

I do not see a pronounced Christian influence in these countries.

If some extreme Christians want to follow that example that reminds me of the position towards evolution: The most extreme rejection is shared by Christian and Muslim fundamentalists (literalists).

"When you criticize only one group for things that are done by all groups, you are practicing hypocrisy as well as bigotry" (CarolC)

Wolfgang)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

Can someone please point me to the part of the New Testament which demands the death penalty for any 'crime' or 'offence', whether by homo- or hetero-sexuals, Christians or Non-Christians, white men, black men or, for that matter, blue men?

If it's there, I've never seen it, and it's wrong to tar all Christians with the same brush as a few who hold extreme (and fundamentally un-Christian) views. Just the same as it's wrong to brand all Muslims as violent, murderous infidel-haters. Both are patently untrue.

Christians all over the world, all the time, announce their opposition to all sorts of wrongs and injustices, including killing, by the acts of living, practising and publically acknowledging, their Faith. There are millions who do just that, just as there are millions from other Faiths, and of no Faith, who live their lives as shining examples of goodness and humanity.

The good guys outnumber the bastards by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to one. Unfortunately, it's always the bastards that we get to hear about, and the shit they fling about always seems to land on the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM

The most homophobic faith is probably the judaic although chistianity and islam too are not devoid of this trait,.In any event no religion has the right to intrude into the bed chamber in matters involving consenting adults. if they choose to practice their filthy habits in the privacy of their own apartments then its no-ne else's business!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM

"Islamic fundamentalists execute homosexuals, too.
Something the two religions have in common."

No, just something fundamentalists have in common.

(to my mind, neither group deserves the description "religious")

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM

To tarnish all Christians with the same brush is wrong. There are things in most Holy Books, I'd imagine, which have been written by those with 'agendas'. The vast majority of people have the common sense and a sense of love and peace that comes so much of their Holy Books.

Those who seek to use any form of religion, purely for their own evil means, as Dan has mentioned above, should be rooted out. And yes, I'm with Crow Sister here, I think a 'Not in the name of Christ' campaign, would be wonderful...as would 'Not in the name of Allah' too.

Most religions are based on peace and love, and most who choose to follow those religions choose to follow that path.

Please do not therefore brand ALL Christians, Muslims, Jews..etc.. as feeling this way.

The British National Party is er...British, but they do not stand for what I believe, even though I am British.

Common sense is needed here, methinks.