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Child Ballads: US Versions

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Richie 06 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM
Steve Gardham 05 Mar 12 - 04:18 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Mar 12 - 01:31 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Mar 12 - 01:01 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 01 Mar 12 - 03:30 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 01 Mar 12 - 03:23 AM
Richie 29 Feb 12 - 09:45 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Feb 12 - 05:42 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 29 Feb 12 - 02:41 PM
Richie 29 Feb 12 - 10:48 AM
Richie 29 Feb 12 - 10:40 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Feb 12 - 05:24 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 18 Feb 12 - 10:09 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Feb 12 - 09:30 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Feb 12 - 09:17 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 17 Feb 12 - 04:01 PM
Richie 17 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM
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Richie 16 Feb 12 - 11:27 PM
GUEST,SteveG 09 Feb 12 - 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM

Hi,

The only Flanders text I have is Lord Bakeman- Kennison (Vermont) 1930 Flanders.

If you get rought text scanned you can email it to me and I'll fix it. I'll try to get a copy of the book too.

I'll start another thread today- please put additional there.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 04:18 PM

Richie,
Thanks to Mick's advice I now have my scanner back in operation.
You may already have some of the texts in Flanders. What I could do is send you a list of versions and sources then you could tell me which ones you haven't already got, rather than try to scan all 60 pages.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM

Richie,
I'm not sure about the mechanics and ethics of such things, but this thread is obviously going to run and run. The longer it gets the longer it takes to download, even on my much faster new computer. Anyone with a computer stuffed up like my old one might give up before they get to the bottom. Have you considered starting a new thread, Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:31 PM

Wow!
Flanders, 'Ancient Ballads' is the direct opposite of Broadwood. There are 22 pretty full versions. Sorry to bow out here but even with a scanner that's 60 pages. I think you'll have to pay a visit to the library. That's a shitload of versions.

Thanks for the printer advice by PM, Mick. I've emailed Lexmark for advice.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:01 PM

The Broadwood one is quite easy. The note says 'The 1843 and 1889 versions contain only the first verse. The other 19 verses are taken from a Catnach broadside.'

No point in giving you the broadside verses as I'm sure they'll be on the Bodl or you'll already have them. Here's the first verse from Lewis Jones's 1995 reprint:

Lord Bateman he had a mind to travel
Into some foreign country;
Where he was taken and put in prison,
Till of his life he was quite weary.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:30 AM

Richie

Here's a link for a copy of the Minstrelsy at archive.org: A Collection of the Ballads.... (Searching for Northumbrian Minstrelsy didn't find it; I did an advanced search for Bruce Stokoe in the Creator field.)


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:23 AM

I'll try and get the link for the Minstrelsy. In the meantime, the tunes are available in abc format from our own Jack Campin's site: Northumbrian Minstrelsy tunes. Lord Beichan in X:13.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 09:45 PM

Thanks,

Mick- I did look in the internet archive, maybe there's a different search engine for other parts of it. I'd like to find the original to see if I can copy the music.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:42 PM

The burlesque version which seems to have dominated in England is derived from broadsides which in turn derived from the Cruikshank publication. Like many of the burlesques of serious traditional ballads the burlesque got back into oral tradition via the broadsides and so became serious again in some cases. Those that had been rendered in some comic dialect form remained comic ballads.

I collected a version of Lord Bateman which was half sung, half recited, which can be found on the British Library National Sound Archive website. It is pretty much verbatim the broadside.

If I get time over the next few days I'll post the Broadwood version and the Flanders ones, unless someone beats me to it.

I'm still without a scanner. My new computer doesn't recognise my Lexmark X1150 all-in-one.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 02:41 PM

Richie

Here's the version from the Minstrelsy. You can actually download a copy from archive.org. In fact I used a djvu copy I'd downloaded from there to get the main text below; but as the ocr has inevitable errors I proofread it against my paper copy of the book.

Mick



LORD BEICHAN

Lord Beichan was a noble lord,
A noble lord of high degree;
He shipped himself on board a ship,
He longed strange countries for to see.

He sailed east, he sailed west,
Until he came to proud Turkey,
Where he was ta'en by a savage Moor,
Who handled him right cruellie.

For he viewed the fashions of that land,
Their way of worship viewed he;
But to Mahound or Termagant
Would Beichan never bend a knee.

So on each shoulder they've putten a bore,
In each bore they've putten a tye,
And they have made him trail the wine,
And spices on his fair bodie.

They've casten him in a donjon deep
Where he could neither hear nor see;
For seven long years they've kept him there,
Till he for hunger's like to dee.

And in his prison a tree there grew,
So stout and strong there grew a tree,
And unto it was Beichan chained,
Until his life was most weary.

This Turk he had one only daughter,
Fairer creature did eyes ne'er see;
And every day as she took the air,
Near Beichan's prison passed she.

And bonny, meek, and mild was she,
Tho' she was come of an ill kin;
And oft she sighed, she knew not why,
For him that lay the donjon in.

O! so it fell upon a day,
She heard young Beichan sadly sing;
And aye and ever in her ears,
The tones of hapless sorrow ring —

"My hounds they all go masterless,
My hawks they flee from tree to tree,
My younger brother will heir my land,
Fair England again I'll never see."

And all night long no rest she got,
Young Beichan's song for thinking on;
She's stown the keys from her father's head,
And to the prison strong is gone.

And she has ope'd the prison doors,
I wot she opened two or three,
Ere she could come young Beichan at —
He was locked up so curiouslie.

But when she came young Beichan before,
Sore wondered he that maid to see !
He took her for some fair captive —
"Fair ladye, I pray of what countrie?"

"Have you got houses? have you got land?
Or does Northumberland 'long to thee?
What would ye give to the fair young ladye
That out of prison would set you free?"

"I have got houses, I have got lands,
And half Northumberland 'longs to me —
I'll give them all to the ladye fair
That out of prison will set me free.

"Near London town I have a hall,
With other castles two or three;
I'll give them all to the ladye fair
That out of prison will set me free."

"Give me the troth of your right hand,
The troth of it give unto me,
That for seven years ye'll no lady wed,
Unless it be along with me."

"I'll give thee troth of my right hand,
The troth of it I'll freely gie,
That for seven years I'll stay unwed,
For kindness thou dost show to me."

And she has bribed the proud warder,
With golden store and white money,
She's gotten the keys of the prison strong,
And she has set young Beichan free.

She's gi'en him to eat the good spice cake,
She's gi'en him to drink the blood-red wine;
And every health she drank unto him —
"I wish, Lord Beichan, that you were mine;"
And she's bidden him sometimes think on her
That so kindly freed him out of pine.

She's broken a ring from off her finger,
And to Beichan half of it gave she:
"Keep it to mind you of that love
The lady bore that set you free."

O she took him to her father's harbour,
And a ship of fame to him gave she;
"Farewell, farewell to you, Lord Beichan,
Shall I e'er again you see ?

"Set your foot on the good ship board,
And haste ye back to your own countrie,
And before seven years have an end
Come back again, love, and marry me."

Now seven long years are gone and past,
And sore she longed her love to see,
For ever a voice within her breast
Said "Beichan has broken his vow to thee."
So she's set her foot on the good ship board,
And turned her back on her own countrie.

She sailed east, she sailed west,
Till to fair England's shore came she,
Where a bonnie shepherd she espied,
Feeding his sheep upon the lea.

"What news, what news, thou bonnie shepherd ?
What news hast thou to tell to me?"
"Such news I hear, ladye," he said,
"The like was never in this countrie.

"There is a wedding in yonder hall,
(I hear the sound of the minstrelsie),
But young Lord Beichan slights his bride
For love of one that's ayond the sea."

She's putten her hand in her pocket,
Gi'en him the gold and white monie —
"Here, take ye that, my bonnie boy,
For the good news thou tell'st to me."

When she came to Lord Beichan's gate
She tirled softly at the pin,
And ready was the proud warder
To open and let this ladye in.

When she came to Lord Beichan's castle,
So boldly she rang the bell —
"Who's there? who's there?" cried the proud porter,
"Who's there? unto me come tell?"

"O! is this Lord Beichan's castle?
Or is that noble lord within?"
"Yea, he's in the hall among them all,
And this is the day of his weddin'."

"And has he wed another love,
And has he clean forgotten me?"
And sighing, said that ladye gay:
"I wish I was in my own countrie."

And she has ta'en her gay gold ring,
That with her love she brake so free —
"Gie him that, ye proud porter,
And bid the bridegroom speak to me.

"Tell him to send me a slice of bread,
And a cup of blood-red wine,
And not to forget the fair young ladye
That did release him out of pine."

Away and away went the proud porter,
Away and away and away went he,
Until he came to Lord Beichan's presence,
Down he fell on his bended knee.
"What aileth thee, my proud porter,
Thou art so full of courtesie?"

"I have been porter at your gates,
Its thirty long years now, and three,
But there stands a ladye at them now
The like of her I ne'er did see.

"For on every finger she has a ring,
And on her mid-finger she has three,
And as much gay gold above her brow
As would an earldom buy to me;
And as much gay clothing round about her
As would buy all Northumberlea."

Its out then spak' the bride's mother —
Aye, and an angry woman was she —
"Ye might have excepted the bonnie bride,
And two or three of our companie."

"O hold your tongue, ye silly frow,
Of all your folly let me be,
She's ten times fairer than the bride
And all that's in your companie.

"She asks one sheave of my lord's white bread,
And a cup of his red, red wine;
And to remember the ladye's love
That kindly freed him out of pine."

Lord Beichan then in a passion flew,
And broke his sword in splinters three—
"O, well a day," did Beichan say,
"That I so soon should married be;
For it can be none but dear Saphia
That's crossed the deep for love of me."

And quickly hied he down the stair,
Of fifteen steps he made but three,
He's ta'en his bonnie love in his arms,
And kist and kist her tenderlie.

"O, have you taken another bride,
And have ye quite forgotten me,
And have ye quite forgotten one
That gave you life and libertie?"

She looked over her left shouther,
To hide the tears stood in her e'e —
"Now fare thee well, young Beichan," she says,
"I'll try to think no more on thee."

"O! never, never, my Saphia,
For surely this can never be,
Nor ever shall I wed but her
That's done and dreed so much for me."

Then out and spak' the forenoon bride —
"My lord, your love is changed soon;
At morning I am made your bride,
And another's choose ere it be noon!"

"O sorrow not, thou forenoon bride,
Our hearts could ne'er united be,
You must return to your own countrie,
A double dower I'll send with thee."

And up and spak' the young bride's mother,
Who never was heard to speak so free —
"And so you treat my only daughter,
Because Saphia has cross'd the sea."

"I own I made a bride of your daughter,
She ne'er a whit the worse can be,
She came to me with her horse and saddle,
She may go back in her coach and three."

He's ta'en Saphia by the white hand,
And gently led her up and down,
And aye as he kist her rosy lips,
"Ye're welcome, dear one, to your own."

He's ta'en her by the milk-white hand,
And led her to yon fountain stane,
Her name he's changed from Saphia,
And he's called his bonny love Lady Jane.

Lord Beichan prepared another marriage,
And sang with heart so full of glee —
"I'll range no more in foreign countries,
Now since my love has crossed the sea."




Notes:
There are several versions of this highly popular and apparently
ancient ballad in the works of Jamieson, Kinloch, Motherwell, &c,
and in the "Local Historian's Table Book,"vol. II., p. 20, New-
castle-upon-Tyne, 1842, the last being an English traditional version
communicated by Mr. J. H. Dixon, of Seaton Carew.
Jamieson suggests that the name of the hero should be not
"Beichan,"but "Buchan;" and another editor or annotator (Percy
Society Publications, No. 43) surmises "that the hero was one of
the ancient and noble border family of 'Bertram;'" whilst Mother-
well refers the ballad to an incident in the life of Gilbert, father of
the celebrated Thomas a Becket. In this opinion he is supported
by Professor Child, of Boston, U.S.A. There is also the popular song
of "Lord Bateman,"a ludicrously corrupt copy of this ballad, an
edition of which (in the Cockney vernacular, with comic illustrations
by George Cruickshanks, and notes of a burlesque character) was
published by Tilt, of London, many years ago, containing the air to
which the ballad was sung in the South of England — totally different
from the Northern melody, which is here given.



Source: Bruce & Stokoe: Northumbrian Minstrelsy, 1882.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:48 AM

Hi,

Here's the link to Dickens/Thackeray The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman w/illustrations:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-loving-ballad-of-lord-bateman--1839-child-l.aspx

I'm missing two English versions anyone have lyrics?

1.A copy in Rev. John Broadwood's 'Sussex Songs,' 1840, and reprinted in 'Sussex Songs,' Lucas and Weber."

2. One in 'Northumbrian Minstrelsy,' 1882, 'Lord Beichan.'

The tradtional US versions I have so far are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-53-young-beichan.aspx

There are over 70, haven't counted them yet. Don't have Barry's Maine Ballads or Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:40 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the versions. Haven't posted since the slowdown.

I'm on child 53, Young Beichan which is a monster. I have a couple English version not found on the web and have reproduced The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman w/illustrations here:

Young Bicham- Jamieson-Brown c.1783 Child A
Young Brechin- Glenriddell 1791; Child B
Young Bekie- Jamieson-Brown 1783 Child C
Young Beachen- Skene MS c.1802 Child D
Young Beichan and Susie Pye- 1806 Child E
Susan Pye and Lord Beichan- c.1817 Child F
Lord Beekin- Walker (Mt Pleasant) pre-1873 Child G
Lord Beichan and Susie Pye- Kinloch 1827 Child H
Young Bechin- Dodds (Haddington) c.1873 Child I
Young Beichan- Robertson c.1829 Child J
Lord Bechin- Dickson (Rentonhall) c.1873 Child K
The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman- 1839 Child L
Young Bondwell- Buchan MS c.1828; Child M
Susan Py, or Young Bichen's Garland- 1815 Child N
Earl Bichet- Greenwood (London) 1806 Child O

Lord Bateman- Withington (Edgmond) c. 1870s
Lord Beichan- (Aberdeenshire) 1876 Christie
Ye Loving Ballad of Lorde Bateman- Crawhall 1883
Lord Bateman- Holt (Alderhill) 1891 Kidson
Lord Bateman- Wray (Lincolnshire) 1904 Grainger B
Lord Bateman- Kidson (Two Melodies) pre-1904
Lord Bateman- Larcombe (Somerset) 1906 Sharp
Lord Bateman- Taylor (Lincolnshire) 1906 Grainger A


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:24 PM

Richie
Have you got the 4 versions in Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England, Vol 1? Some of these are Edward hybrids and one is collected by Barry but in Vermont. The first version has a wonderful 27 stanzas. It's from George Edwards of Burlington, Vermont. The same version appeared in 'Ballads Migrant in New England'. This Barry version is also in Bulletin of the Folk Song Society of the North East Vol XI 1960.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 10:09 AM

I haven't heard any differently, so following Steve's suggestion, I'll assume these are the versions you wanted from Cox: Folk-Songs of the South.

Mick





THE TWA BROTHERS
(Child, NO.49)

Two variants have been found in West Virginia under the titles: "The Two Brothers" and "Little Willie" (reported by COX, XLV, 160). A, although more or less fragmentary and confused, is pretty clearly related to Child B. No proper names are given. In B there are the names John and Willie, days of the week mentioned, the references to stone-throwing and ball-playing, and the deliberate use of the knife. In all these there is a strong similarity to Child G. Some striking likenesses in language are also to be noticed.

For American texts see Child, I, 443 (Massachusetts, New York); Journal, XXVI, 361 (Pound; Nebraska by way of Missouri); XXIX, 158 (Tolman; Indiana); XXX, 294, Kittredge from Belden; Missouri); McGill, p.54 (Kentucky); Campbell and Sharp, No.11 (North Carolina, Virginia); Sharp American English Folk-Songs, 1st Series, p.8 (Kentucky); Pound, No.18 (Missouri by way of Washington); Journal of the Folk-Song Society, VI, 87; Belden's Missouri collection. For references see Journal, XXX, 293. Add Bulletin, Nos.7, 9, 10.





A

"The Two Brothers." Communicated by Professor Walter Barnes, Fairmont, Marion County, April, 1915; obtained from Mrs.Charles Snider, Spencer, Roane County.

There were two brothers in a foreign land,
Their lessons for to learn;
Said the elder brother to the younger brother,
"Dear brother, let us play ball."

...
...
"I am too little, I am too young,
Dear brother, please leave me alone."

He had a knife all by his side,
Which was both keen and sharp;
He ran it through his brother's breast,
Which bled him to the heart.

"Now take my shirt all off my back,
And rip it from gore to gore,
And bind it round my bleeding side."
But still it bled the more.

"Now take me all upon your back
And carry me to yon churchyard,
And there dig me a fine big grave,
Which is both deep and wide.

"And if my father should ask for me,
Dear brother, when you go home,
Tell him I'm at school with my playmates,
And early I'll be home.

"And if my mother should ask for me,
Dear brother, when you go home,
Tell her I'm at school in a foreign land,
And early I'll come home.

"And if my schoolmates should ask for me,
Dear brother, when you come go home,
Tell them I'm dead and in my grave,
As cold as any stone."





B

"Little Willie." Contributed by Mr.John B. Adkin, Branchland, Lincoln County, April 1, 1916.

Two little boys a-going to school,
Two little boys were they;
I've often wished myself with them,
Their playmates for to be,
Their playmates for to be.

On Monday morning they started to school,
On Saturday they returned,
A-combing back their olivewood locks,
To see their parents at home,
To see their parents at home.

"O Willie, can you toss the ball,
Or can you throw a stone?"
"I am too little, I am too young,
Pray, brother, O leave me alone."

John pulled out his long, keen knife,
It being both keen and sharp;
Between the long ribs and the short
He pierced it to his heart,
He pierced it to his heart.

He then pulled off his olivewood shirt
And tore it from gore to gore;
Although to wrap the bleeding wound,
But still it bled the more,
But still it bled the more.

"Pick me up, dear brother," said he,
"And lay me out so straight;
O pick me up, dear brother," said he,
"And lay me at the gate,
And lay me at the gate.

"If you meet mother on the way
And she seems uncearned, [1]
Just tell her I'm going to the old campground,
My prayer book there to learn,
My prayer book there to learn."


[1] For concerned


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:30 AM

Haven't got Barry but it might be repeated elsewhere. I'll check.
There's a version in JH Cox's FS from the South at p33 but not in his West Virginia book. Is the former what you're after? If that is so, it's your turn to post, Mick.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM

B From a copy made by Mr. George F. Swetnam, University, from the singing of his mother, Mrs. Flora Stafford, Swetman, who learned the ballad from her mother in Ky.

He drew his sword all from his side,
.....................................
He pierced it through his own brother's heart,
And out the blood did pour.

"Brother, dear, take off my shirt,
Tear it from gore to gore;
And then tie up my bleeding wounds,
That they may bleed no more.

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My mother will ask for me.
Tell her I'm playing with my schoolmates
And will be at home early.

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My father will ask for me.
Tell him I'm gone to the north countrie
To learn my grammarie.

"Brother dear, when you go home
My sister will ask for me.
............................
..............................

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My truelove will ask for me.
Tell her I'm dead and in my cold grave laid
No more to see of me."

An incredibly powerful ballad in such a short text!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:17 AM

Hudson p 73 & p74

A "The Cruel Brother." Text recovered by Miss Lois Womble, Water Valley, from the singing of Miss Mamie Poindexter, Pine Valley.

Two little boys were going to school;
They were playmates for to be.
Willie said to johnnie,
"Can you throw a rock or toss a ball?"

"Oh, no, dear brother, I am too small
Tp throw a rock or toss a ball."

Willie took out his little dirt knife,    (dirk?)
Which was so keen and sharp.
He pierced it through little Johnnie's side;
He pierced it through his heart.

Willie took off his big white shirt
And tore it from gore to gore;
He tied it around little Johnnie's side,
Still bleeding more and more.

"Come pick me up, dear brother, I say,
And lay me out so straight;
Come pick me up, dear brother, I say,
And bury me by the gate.

"Go meet my mother on her way,
Who looks so unconcerned;
Tell her I'm gone to the old churchyard
My prayer books for to learn."

B coming up. I'd send you scans of all these but I'm between scanners at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:01 PM

Ritchie - if the Cox versions you want are the ones from Folk-Songs of the South, I can put the two up later.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM

Hi,

Although there's a mistake in Child (Kittredge) version I listed under Twa brothers but it's a version of Edward, usually changes in the text are carefully notated.

If it's a collation the source of the other text should be noted but it's not, or, I haven't found the reference.

I've started putting the US versions of Twa Bothers on my site, there are quite a few: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-49-the-twa-brothers.aspx

I don't have Hudson (Miss.) or Barry (Maine) or Cox A (WV). I anyone has these, please post one,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:11 AM

Richie
Your guess is as good as anyone else's. All of them were mixing and matching and this is an example of the most basic process whereby two ballads are simply grafted together with no new material except perhaps the couplet that introduces stanza 12. At least this one is patently obvious


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:27 PM

Thanks Steve for the clarification--- Sorry for this long post. I'm confused about Twa Brothers Child E; When I added Motherwell text from page 60 it was not the same but a collation- see at the bottom of this post. Where is the collation from? I know it's found on p. 270 the Ballad Minstrelsy of Scotland.


The Twa Brothers- Child Version E
Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 60.

1    There were twa brothers at the scule,
And when they got awa,
'It's will ye play at the stane-chucking,
Or will ye play at the ba,
Or will ye gae up to yon hill head,
And there we'll warsel a fa?'

2    'I winna play at the stane-chucking,
Nor will I play at the ba;
But I'll gae up to yon bonnie green hill,
And there we'll warsel a fa.'

3    They warsled up, they warsled down,
Till John fell to the ground;
A dirk fell out of William's pouch,
And gave John a deadly wound.

4    'O lift me upon your back,
Take me to yon well fair,
And wash my bluidy wounds oer and oer,
And they'll neer bleed nae mair.'

5    He's lifted his brother upon his back,
Taen him to yon well fair;
He's wash'd his bluidy wounds oer and oer,
But they bleed ay mair and mair.

6    'Tak ye aff my holland sark,
And rive it gair by gair,
And row it in my bluidy wounds,
And they'll neer bleed nae mair.'

7    He's taken aff his holland sark,
And torn it gair by gair;
He's rowit it in his bluidy wounds,
But they bleed ay mair and mair.

8    'Tak now aff my green cleiding,
And row me saftly in,
And tak me up to yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.'

9    He's taken aff the green cleiding,
And rowed him saftly in;
He's laid him down by yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.

10    'What will ye say to your father dear,
When ye gae hame at een?'
'I'll say ye're lying at yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.'

11    'O no, O no, my brother dear,
O you must not say so;
But say that I'm gane to a foreign land,
Whare nae man does me know.'

12    When he sat in his father's chair,
He grew baith pale and wan:
'O what blude's that upon your brow?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my gray steed,
He wadna ride wi me.'

13    'O thy steed's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my greyhound,
He wadna hunt for me.'

14    'O thy hound's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your hand?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my gay goss-hawk,
He wadna flee for me.'

15    'O thy hawk's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your dirk?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my ae brother,
O dule and wae is me!'

16    'O what will ye say to your father?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'I'll saddle my steed, and awa I'll ride,
To dwell in some far countrie.'

17    'O when will ye come hame again?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'When sun and mune leap on yon hill,
And that will never be.'

18    She turnd hersel right round about,
And her heart burst into three:
'My ae best son is deid and gane,
And my tother ane I'll neer see.'
______________

From: Minstrelsy: Ancient and Modern, with an historical intr.p. 60 William Motherwell - 1827

THE TWA BROTHERS

The domestic tragedy which this affecting ballad commemorates is not without precedent in real history; nay, we are almost inclined to believe that it originated in the following melancholy event:—

"This year, 1589, in the moneth of July, ther falls out a sad accident, as a further warneing that God was displeased with the familie. The Lord Sommervill haveing come from Cowthally, earlie in the morning, in regaird the weather was hott, he had ridden hard to be at the Drum be ten a clock, which haveing done, he laid him down to rest The servant, with his two sones, William Master of Sommervill and John his brother, went with the horses to ane Shott of land, called the Prety Shott, directly opposite the front of the house where there was some meadow ground for grassing the horses, and willowes to shaddow themselves from the heat They had not long continued in this place, when the Master of Somervill efter some litle rest awakeing from his sleep and finding his pistolles that lay hard by him wett with the dew he began to rub and dry them, when unhappily one of them went off the ratch, being lying upon his knee, and the muzel turned syde-ways, the ball strocke his brother John directly in the head, and killed him outright, soe that his sorrowful brother never had one word from him, albeit he begged it with many teares."—Memorie of the Somervilies, Vol. I. p. 467.

The reader will find in the first volume of "Popular Ballads and Songs" another edition of this ballad, which, in point of merit, is perhaps superior to the present copy. The third stanza of that edition was however imperfect, and the ingenious editor, Mr. Jamieson, has supplied four lines to render it complete. Excellent though his interpolations generally are, it will be seen that, in this instance, he has quite misconceived the scope and tendency of the piece on which he was working, and in consequence has supplied a reading with which the rest of his own copy is at complete variance, and which at same time sweeps away the deep impression this simple ballad would otherwise have made upon the feelings; for it is almost unnecessary to mention that its touching interest is made to centre in the boundless sorrow, and cureless remorse, of him who had been the unintentional cause of his brother's death—and in the solicitude which that high-minded and generous spirit expresses, even in the last agonies of nature, for the safety and fortunes of the truly wretched and unhappy survivor. Mr. Jamieson's addition is given below.—By that addition this ballad has been altered in one of its most distinctive and essential features; hence the present copy, which preserves the genuine reading in the stanza referred to, though it might have derived considerable improve- ments in other particulars from the one given by Mr. Jamieson, has, on the whole, been preferred.   The addition to the stanza in question is inclosed by crotchets.

They warstled up, they warstled down,   
The lee lang simmer's day;
[And nane was near to part the strife   
That raise atween them tway,
Till out and Willie's drawn his sword,   
And did his brother slay.]

__________________

There were twa brothers at the scule,
And when they got awa'—
"It's will ye play at the stane-chucking,   
Or will ye play at the ba',
Or will ye gae up to yon hill head,
And there we'll warsell a fa'."

When he sat in his father's chair
He grew baith pale and wan.
"O what blude's that upon your brow?
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude o' my gude gray steed,
He wadna ride wi' me."

"O thy steed's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek?
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude of my greyhound,
He wadna hunt for me."

"O thy hound's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek,
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude of my gay goss hawk,
He wadna flee for me."

"O thy hawk's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me;
O what blude's this upon your dirk?
Dear Willie tell to me."
"It is the blude of my ae brother,
O dule and wae is me."

"O what will ye say to your father?
Dear Willie tell to me."
"I'll saddle my steed, and awa I'll ride
To dwell in some far countrie."

"O when will ye come hame again?
Dear Wiilie tell to me."
"When sun and mune leap on yon hill,
And that will never be."

She turn'd hersel' right round about,   
And her heart burst into three:
"My ae best son is deid and gane,   
And my tother ane I'll ne'er see."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:55 AM

Re ABCD, if you look carefully he is actually referring to Child No 1
Riddles WE.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:08 AM

Mick

Google search didn't find lyrics. You're right, what's worse is I already have it on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/captain-wedderburns-courtship--young-ns-1937.aspx

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:57 AM

Ritchie -

If you look at folkinfo's abc which includes the song (X:102), the source seems to be one of Helen Creighton's recordings. The relevant headers are:


T:Captain Wedderburn's Courtship
B:Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Dec 1951
F:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs
S:Tom Young, Nova Scotia, July 23, 1937
Z:Doreen H Senior and Helen Creighton


ie Source is Tom Young, transcribed by Senior and Creighton.

JEFDSS, Dec 3, 1951 does include an article by Senior and Creighton: Folk Songs Collected In The Province of Nova Scotia, Canada, which I presume is the source. This document The Creighton-Senior Collaboration (pdf) has an account of the trip and the collection of the song (p23, para 3).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:14 AM

Hi,

Folk info has a version of 46 Wedderburn here:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/displaysong.php?songid=406&pagenum=1&reverse=

What is the source? I know it's not from Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Dec 1951. The notes by Gilchrist are- but not the text and music.

Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 09:36 AM

Hi,

In Child's narrative for No. 46 Captain Weddderburn he writes at teh beginning of the third paragraph:

We have had of the questions six, A 11, 12, What is greener than the grass? in No 1, A 15, C 13, D 5; What's higher than the tree? in C 9, D 1; What's war than a woman's wiss? ("than a woman was") A 15, C 13, D 5; What's deeper than the sea? A 13, B 5, C 9, D 1.

Since there is no D version, what's going on? Is the D version missing?


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:56 PM

Mission accompished, Ta. I couldn't get the Control/shift/end to do anything but I managed to highlight from the bottom upwards and then followed the rest, a doddle.

When I get time I'll do a close comparison between this, the Percy version and the earliest print version.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:30 PM

Ta Mick. I'll try that.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM

Ritchie - the catalogue entry for Corpus mss was in a catalogue of mss published in 1852 by Henry Coxe under the Henry title - Catalogus codicum mss. qui in collegiis aulisque Oxoniensibus ...: Volume 2 - Page 107 Entry 24 (with a couple of slight differences in the quoted first two lines: shew and Jhon. Why it was under the Henry name I can't imagine.

Steve - you can copy the text by highlighting the first letter A then press Ctrl+Shift+End, which will select to the end of the text, then press Ctrl-C to copy it (or right-click/Copy), then paste it into an emtpy text file with Ctrl-V(or right-click/Paste).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 04:52 PM

Richie
I tried to print off the 1550 text from your website without much success. Do you know anywhere it can be printed off from the net easily? Or please could you point me in the direction of an easily accessible copy. Is it given in any well-known books?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 01:12 PM

Personally I'm very suspicious of all versions of Twa Magicians, and I'm glad to see you are putting Hares on the Mountains in an appendix as both could at a stretch derive from continental versions independently.

KJ
You have the MacNally version from Maine but there are 3 other versions in Flanders, Ancient Ballads.

There's a pre 1850s version in the Stevens Douglass Manuscript.

There are 2 prose versions in MacEdward Leach 'Lower Labrador Coast

And Niles gives a version from Ratliff which doesn't seem to have suffered much at his hands.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 10:29 AM

Hi Steve,

I changed the letters, rather than have 2 J's. This was done by Child when the same mistake was made.

I've added Hares on the Mountain as an Appendix to The Twa Magicians. I'm having trouble finding US versions aside from 'Roll Your Leg over." Anyone know any US versions and have text?

I've finished roughing in Child No. 45 King John and the Bishop: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/45-king-john-and-the-bishop.aspx

Why isn't the oldest text c. 1550 entitled, A Tale of Henry III and the Archbishop of Canterbury (A Tale of King John and the Archbishop of Canterbury) from the library of Corpus Christi College, Oxford- MS. 255 mentioned in ballad index and on-line?

I've included it here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-tale-of-henry-iii-and-the-archbishop-c1550.aspx

I have several US versions- am I missing any? Anyone have more?

1) The Bishop of Canterbury- Hubbard (Utah) c.1875

2) The Bishop of Old Canterbury- Hall (CT) 1907

3) King John and the Bishop- M. E. E. (R.I.) 1907

4) King John and the Bishop- Vaughan (MI) 1937

5) The Bishop of Canterbury- Ford (CA) 1938

6) The King's Three Questions- MacNelly (Maine) 1940


View them here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-44-king-john-and-the-bishop.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 04:04 PM

Mark from Loomis posted an answer to my request on the Indiana Ballad List. Apparently Loomis just shunted the letters along where the errors occurred. Common sense triumphs. He said he could only remember one example but we have 2 here already including Child 20.

Richie, if you come across any more I'll put them all together on various lists. Plenty of us are still just working from the Dover edition.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Richie
I think we have here exactly the same error as noted previously.

If we take into account that the first J was printed in the appendix to Part 2 and that the second J was printed in the appendix to Part 6 I think we can excuse this error. Part 2 was published in June 1884 and Part 6 in July 1889. 5 years is a long time in this business.

I only have the 5 Dover volumes. It would be interesting to know what the Loomis Edition did about this.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:17 PM

Hi,

I'm working on Child 39, Tam Lin. Thre are two version J's or at least this version is listed under J:

Queen of the Fairies- Version K [appears under the title J but should be K or perhaps a supplimental version not intented to be lettered] Child 39 Tam Lin

'The Queen of the Fairies,' Macmath Manuscript, p. 57. "Taken down by me 14th October, 1886, from the recitation of Mr. Alexander Kirk, Inspector of Poor, Dairy, in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright, who learned it about fifty years ago from the singing of David Ray, Barlay, Balmaclellan."

1    The maid that sits in Katherine's Hall,
Clad in her robes so black,
She has to yon garden gone,
For flowers to flower her hat.

Subsequent versions added K-N seem to have skipped this version.

Can anyone clear this up?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 10:33 AM

Curiously Peggy Seeger's version has lyricsfouund in the 1863 Minstrel version I posted above. Where did her version originate?

The Three Ravens
Peggy Seeger, The Long Harvest, Record Seven, Argo (Z)DA 72 1975

There were three crows sat on yonder's tree
They're just as black as crows can be
One of them said to the mate:
What shall we do for grub to eat?

There's an old dead horse in yonder's lane
Whose body has been lately slain
We'll fly upon his old breast bone
And pluck his eyes out one by one

Old Satan tried to injure me
By cutting down my apple tree
He could not injure me at all
For I had apples all the fall

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:14 PM

Hi,

I've posted the first batch of US versions (Three Ravens/Crows)- over 40 and only have a few more to go that I have accessible:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-26-the-three-ravens-.aspx

Thanks for your help and imput,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:05 PM

Here's the other 1863 minstrel text:

From: Frank Brower's Black Diamond Songster and Ebony Jester (New York: Dick and Fitzgerald, [c. 1863]), pp. 30-31. The ballad, titled "The Four Vultures. A Burlesque Quartette," is prefaced by the description: "As sung by Frank Brower, Ephe Horn, Nelse Seymour, and Charley Fox. (Always received with shouts of laughter.)"

THE FOUR VULTURES- Frank Brower's Black Diamond Songster and Ebony Jester (New York: Dick and Fitzgerald, [c. 1863]), pp. 30-31


SPOKEN (slowly and precisely).
There were three crows sat on a tree,
And they were black as black could be.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
There were three crows sat on a tree,
And they were black as black could be.

SPOKEN.
One of them said unto his mate,
"What shall we do for grub to eat!"-
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
One of them said unto his mate,
"What shall we do for grub to eat?"

SPOKEN.
There lies a horse on yonder plain,
Whose bod-y has been late-ly slain.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
There lies a horse on yonder plain,
Whose bod-y has been late-ly slain.

SPOKEN.
Let's perch ourselves on his back-bone,
And pick his eyes out, one by one!
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
Let's perch ourselves on his back-bone,
And pick his eyes out, one by one!

SPOKEN.
The devil thought to in-jure me,
By cutting down my apple-tree,
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
The devil thought to in-jure me,
By cutting down my apple-tree.

SPOKEN.
He did not in-jure me at all,
For I had apples all the fall.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
He did not in-jure me at all,
For I had apples all the fall.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:16 AM

Nice one Mick!!

I've got the other two versions on my site from the 1860's and also the first (McGee McGar [sic]) songbook version from 1909.

I'll post at some point.

First I'd like to point out that the DT's "Two Ravens"-

THE TWO RAVENS- From Mountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania, Shoemaker 1931 Long popular in Clinton County, One of Clarence Walton's favorites.

and the recent post:

The Legendary Ballads of England and Scotland compiled & edited by John S. Roberts, Chandos Classics 1900

is by Allan Cunningham, 1925.

It was written by Cunningham based on the extant versions and is not traditional.

Interestingly- there's already a first version collected of Cunningham's Scottish ballad in the US by Mellinger Henry, his A version, c. 1900. After Cunningham's Two Crows was published in Cleveland's Compendium (Philadephia, 1848, with subsequent editions reprinted in 1859 etc.) it began surfacing as a traditional ballad, but it was learned from this book- directly or second hand. The orginal, from Allan Cunningham, was printed in 1825 in Cunningham's Songs of Scotland, Vol. I, pp. 289-290. Cunningham rewrote Scott's (See Twa Corbies- Child A a.) and Ravenscroft's text (See Child A Three Ravens). Here's Cunningham's original:


THE TWO RAVENS [1] Cunningham 1825

There were two ravens sat on a tree
Large and black as black might be;
And one unto the other gan say,
Where shall we go and dine to-day?
Shall we go dine by the wild salt sea?
Shall we go dine 'neath the greenwood tree?

As I sat on the deep sea sand,
I saw a fair ship nigh at land,
I waved my wings, I bent my beak,
The ship sunk, and I heard a shriek;
There lie the sailors, one, two, three,
I shall dine by the wild salt sea.

Come, I will show ye a sweeter sight,
A lonesome glen, and a new-slain knight;
His blood yet on the grass is hot,
His sword half-drawn, his shafts unshot,
And no one kens that he lies there,
But his hawk, his hound, and his lady fair.

His hound is to the hunting gane,
His hawk to fetch the wild fowl hame,
His lady's away with another mate,
So we shall make our dinner sweet;
Our dinner's sure, our feasting free,
Come, and dine by the greenwood tree.

Ye shall sit on his white hause-bane,[2]
I will pike out his bony blue e'en;
Ye'll take a tress of his yellow hair,
To theak yere nest when it grows bare;
The gowden[3] down on his young chin
Will do to rowe my young ones in.

O, cauld and bare will his bed be,
When winter storms sing in the tree;
At his head a turf, at his feet a stone,
He will sleep, nor hear the maiden's moan:
O'er his white bones the birds shall fly,
The wild deer bound and the foxes cry.

Footnotes:
1 One of the most poetical and picturesque ballads existing.
2. The neck-bone — a phrase for the neck.
3. Golden.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:55 AM

Mick, Richie, I just mistakenly posted a comment to the current "Twa Corbies" thread.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM

Richie - The text of Christy's New Songster can be found here: CNS - Hathi Trust Digital Library. You can download single pages as pdfs, so you can get the two pages you need easily. (Full pdf needs a partner login).

I've put the text below.

Mick




      The Three Crows

As sung by BYRON CHRISTY, JAMES BRYANT, H.WILSON, and
             G.WRIGHTMAN


[Spoken] THREE crows they sat upon a tree,
         As black as any crows could be.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat the above)

[Spoken] One of these crows, said unto his mate,
         What shall we do for something to eat?
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)

[Spoken] 'Way on that side of yonder plain,
         There lies a horse but three days slain.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)

[Spoken] We'll jump right on to his backbone,
         And pick out his eyes, one by one.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 09:53 PM

TY,

Davis (Trad. ballads of Virgina) and his contributors in two places point out that the song was sung to the Burns melody, "Bonny Doon."

Jabbour and a host of others say it's sung to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again." Are they both right? Could be?

I was wondering if there was a similarity because I'm not familiar with the Bonny Doon melody.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:53 PM

The melodies of "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" and "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" are essentially identical. The evidence is that "JFUTB" iwas in print a few months earlier.

"Ye Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doone" is the name of a song by Robert Burns. Its tune is entirely different.

The two Johnny songs were so popular during the Civil War that there would have been no reason not to adopt the melody to "The Three Crows" at that time, particularly if all a singer had was a printed copy of the words.

It's possible that the Johnny melodies originally belonged to "The Three Crows," but there's no direct evidence of this.

There appears to be no record of "The Three Ravens" between 1611 and the 1820s. The ravens became "crows" later than that - if the sparse records can be trusted.

A big "if."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

I'm working on Child No. 26 The Three Crows. It's intersting that thsi is a minstrel song in the mid-1800s that was "lined out" like the old hymns. I have two early texts 1863 and 1868 but am missing the "Christy's New Songster" text whcih I thing is the same as one of the texts I have.

Anyone have "Christy's New Songster" text?

When was the "McGee McGaw" refrain added, I have a 1909 text but maybe it was earlier?

When did it start using the "When Johnny Comes Marching home" melody. Is that melody "Bonnie Doon" and Johnny Fill Up the Bowl?

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-26-the-three-ravens-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:52 PM

Hi,

Here's Bonnie and Child C a. :

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/undutiful-daughter--masters-devon-1888-child-c-a.aspx

Verse 5 is supplied from Baring-Gould also the date, title and informant are added.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:47 PM

Hi,

I'm working on No. 24 Bonnie Annie and I've improved the Child Version C b.:


http://bluegrassmessengers.com/11undutiful-daughter--hannaford-devon-1890-child-c-b.aspx

The title is not supplied, not the informant. As given there's not much- plus verse 5 is missing,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM

It's also interesting and worthwhile because, whatever their immediate origin, they are in fact versions of the original ballads and thus relevant to the history of the songs.

The real controversy is whether they were ever sung "in tradition" or by "the folk." But those are different questions entirely.

Are "Sir Patrick Spens," "Edward," and "The Battle of Harlaw" fakes? It may depend on what we mean by "fake."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:15 PM

You're in very good company.
That's precisely what Child himself did.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:43 PM

Hi,

Some people think everything Niles did was fake. I personally don't know, since I wasn't there- what he collected that was authentic. It's really impossible to tell. I believe many of the songs in his collection were authentic.

Therefore I'm including it all. Because I'm unable to make a determination of authenticity - I'm not making any determination- I'm leaving that up to you----

That's my position with Niles, Gainer, Woofter and others, who's collected versions may or may not be authentic.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:38 PM

Are you seriously including Niles' material.


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