BS: How to overcome *ism...

Subject: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:21 AM

...in ourselves. I am taking a chance here.I run the risk of this turning into yet another battleground but I can say, hand on heart, it is not my intention. Would anyone joining in please respect that. OK, disclaimer over, on with the thread.

I was born in England, in 1953, to a Polish Father and English Mother. I was brought up in the Industrial North and went to Roman Catholic Schools. Nothing I can do about any of that. In the 1950s my parents generation were fearful of immigrants, even my father, who was one! Terms like 'nignog' and 'paki' were in common use. My father was brought up as strict Russian Orthodox and to be anti-Islam. His father was a Cossack from the Kuban river and became a priest in later life. My Mothers parents were English although her mother was half Welsh and her father had Irish ancestors. They were both Methodists and pretty anti-Papist! So, a good mixture and one that could, and probably did, have quite a profound effect.

I was probably well into my teens before I realised that my automatic or default views were ones that I had inherited and lived with all my life. And some were wrong. Luckily it was before I had children myself and as far as anything-ist views are concerned, the buck did stop here. The realisation was quite sudden. It was that most people are just the same as me. I have been trying to refine that over the past 40-odd years and now, gladly, it seems to come as standard. I still find the old ideas leap out and attack me but I now have a good weapon to fight them with. Taxi drivers cuts me. The old me notices it is a Pakistani. The more sensible one tells me he is just a bad driver. Terrorists blow up civilians. The old me thinks Moslems. The new one says fanatics. Don't get me wrong here, I am not soliciting either praise or condemnation. That is just the way it is. I don't feel guilty at my first reaction. I am not proud of conquering it. Again, it is just the way it is.

If I could give one piece of advice to anyone who is suffering from *ism. Just ask yourself this. Can people be branded by where they were born, the colour of their skin, their faith or their sex? If the answer is yes, then I urge you to reconsider. Judge people by their actions, not by these other traits. Most people, please note that I use 'most' here, are good. Of that I have no doubt. There are a few in every section of society that are criminal, misguided or just plan bad. There is nothing to tie these ones together. They come from every walk of life. It is a very salutary lesson, and one we should all periodically take, to watch young children at play. They have no pee-conceptions. They will play their game with anyone. They judge only by whether the others play fair. In some ways we could all take a leaf out of their book.

It is grossly unfair to stereotype. OK, I still like the obvious jokes occasionally. Like saying there are only two things I hate; racial prejudice and the French. Sorry Gallic cousins. I don't really man it. My sense of humour and conditioning tells me it is OK and I accept that I am just a pasty skinned roastbeef :-) But some sweeping statements are, to my mind, beyond the pale and I cannot help but get riled by them. I also detest the spam mails urging us to consider how much better off immigrants are compared to our own people. People are just people, not us or them.

Not sure if this will achieve anything but if one person reading it starts thinking in a slightly different way or if anyone can offer any advice, it will be worthwhile. Oh, and I feel like I have achieved something anyway. It has been lurking in there for a few weeks now. Better out than in :-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:27 AM

pee-conceptions??? Pretty apt considering I was talking about kids :-) My 3 year old grandson seems fixated on bodily functions at the moment. But, yes, it should be pre.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:59 AM

Bang on Dave.

Times change. As a young lad drinking in The Miners' Welfare I am sure I laughed with the rest of them at some of the northern comics and their use of casual racism as a means of entertainment. Doesn't mean I would find it funny now.

If that was me years ago, not nasty but failing to see the harm done by those who are, I suppose my education has gone full circle.

People are people. Many people seem up be able up reconcile decency with traditional bigotry. We were at a dinner party a few months ago where the other two couples were a Muslim couple and a gay couple. In fact this Saturday we are hosting a BBQ party for the clinical unit staff who work with Mrs Musket. As ever, a mix of different religions, two same sex couples and the need to have two meat BBQs (one halal, including cleaning of utensils) and a vegetarian BBQ too. If the weather is cold, three bloody fires there to keep 'em happy.

I guess I was slightly lucky in the encouragement to form my take on life. My father stopped going to church in the late '40s and taught us to do whatever we want and form our own views, once we were adults. To that end I tried to teach my lads how to think, not what to think.

I taught them to be wary of fiercely held views, especially those that include denigration of others. I had a good friend who took his own life because he started believing those who said he was different. Those who said he was wrong.

We can't change attitudes overnight but by Clapton we can challenge perpetuating them.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:11 AM

I can echo all that, Dave (even to the point of being approx as old as you, approx as Catholic as you and approx as northern as you - Radcliffe lad, tha knows). Must've said "I'm not racist, but..." hundreds of times in my youth. Nowadays my vow with myself is to always find a way of challenging racism if I'm confronted by it.

Yep, I try not to be prejudiced, but those soft southern bastards will never believe me!

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:37 AM

Ah but at least in Cornwall there's no prejudice against people born with six fingers....

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:28 AM

Radcliffe? Bloomin' rural paradise, mate. You didn't get fog that made you cough up multicoloured phlem like we did in Swinton :-)

Funny that localisation creeps in as well. I well remember well people in Swinton not liking those from neighbouring Salford. "Scruffy lot, them from Salford. Not to be trusted." my mother used to say. Them barriers have gone in my lifetime. Not long until the rest fall, I hope!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:49 AM

I beleve I told this story awhile back, on a "First Nations" (aka, indian, or native) related topic thread.

A fisheries enforcement officer I knew, was very agressive in doing his job, and, unfortunately, seemed very prejudiced against indians. He had worked a few months directly with a First Nations group, helping them design an enforcement program.

Following the term, I asked him how it went. He replied: "I now have it figured out". "How so", I replied. He said, "when I used to catch indians poaching, I used to think, fucking asshole indian. What I now think is anyone poaching, whether indian or not, are fucking assholes - I now see from working with some fine folks,   that being an indian is not a factor in all poachers being assholes."

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Stu
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:11 AM

Fascinating subject and a good post Dave, and I was thinking about this just the other day in relationship to identity and how we perceive ourselves and others.

I grew up on the outskirts of Birmingham and although I was not born there I moved there as a baby and consider myself a Brummie . . . it's as close as I'll ever be to being an anything, and although I'm 30 years out of the city to me it's home.

Growing up in Birmingham was interesting in the 1970s/early 1980s. The city was a melting pot of races and nationalities from the Irish in Digbeth to the West Indians in Handworth and the Asians in Sparkhill. In those days there was a fair amount of racial tension in some parts of the city and this was noticed by us as kids. I can remember the shock when the local Co-Op in our white lower-middle class/working class neighbourhood was taken over by asians. Of course, they were far better shop keepers than the people who ran the place previously and soon became very popular, although amongst the kids at school it was universally known as the 'paki shop', even by one of my best mates, who was asian himself.

Looking back these attitudes were born of pure ignorance and (I believe) were a hangover from empire. In many cases there was no actual hatred, just a feeling that 'they' were different from us. I too was in my teens when the scales fell from my eyes and I realised that this ingrained racism had no place in modern society; this was around the same time I discovered socialism.

I had also moved from Brum (which I loved) to a posh village near a small market town in northern England, and there I experienced the sort of prejudice that so many immigrants report, although they had it far worse of course. To the locals in the posh village I was a dummie Brummie, an oich whose dad had made a few quid and moved to the 'nice' area (actually my parents moved for personal reasons it transpired). However, to the locals in the nearby town where I worked I was a posh kid from the snooty village down the road. In fact I was neither of these things but I couldn't make anyone understand I was a normal teenager; in the end I deliberately lost my accent under the pressure to conform and lied to people about where I lived to stop the constant knowing winks and other insinuations. I still live near the town (not in the posh village) and to this day it's a sore point if I'm honest.

It certainly influenced me, as I can't stand racism of any kind as what some people had to suffer must have been terrible. I did my family history, and that was enlightening too, as some of my ancestors fled persecution to come here (they were Huguenots from Nimes).

I'm detecting some of this in the Scottish independence debate, as a certain protagonists stir up anti-English hatred, and indeed my wife and I were racially abused by a shopkeeper on the royal mile in Edinburgh in September. It's pretty sad that the working people of our island are being torn apart in this way as there is enough division already without creating more.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:21 AM

I often suspect that 'tribalism', in its many manifestations, is very close to being coded in our DNA, leading us to favor those who look like us and talk like us. Then I notice that very young children seem to be able to play with each other, taking almost no notice of their differences. Then I notice that as they approach adolescence, some children develop animosities toward some others, manifesting in bullying and social ostracism and elite'ism'.

Some of the changes are no doubt acquired from their 'tribe' (family, income group, language group,...etc..) but some seems to just well up from within as common conflicts are resolved by resorting to simplistic categorization. "He pushed me, and he looks 'different', therefore..." or even "She always gets better grades, and she's prettier than me, therefore..." (these are seldom expressed clearly & formally, but just in subconscious attitudes.)
So... what is 'coded' in our DNA may be a general tendency to react to conflicts quickly in some way that promotes 'us' and defines 'others' as flawed or enemies. Books have been written trying to sort this out.

So? Some people do NOT seem to operate this way and generally treat others as *human* first, rather than some arbitrary sub-category...until.... "those soft southern bastards " or "those idiots who support Manchester" or "anyone the same color as the one who stole my sandwich".
One of the hardest things in the Universe is to rationally and neutrally interact with people without an 'ism' creeping in, however subtly. How to overcome that? It is tempting to say simply 'education' - learning about others and studying history to become aware OF the thousand ways in which prejudice and selfishness color our humanity..... but we see some of the best 'educated' in society behave in some of the worst ways. It is not even simple 'intelligence' (as distinct from 'educated'), though both are fairly important to the process of overcoming *ism.

I will ask you (all of you) to think carefully and see if you can say that you have ever known anyone who truly exemplifies all the best qualities of lack of prejudice, fairness, honesty... and the attempt to use *reason* (" being an indian is not a factor in all poachers being assholes."") to deal with situations.
Then, the hardest trick.... do as one of my college professors tried to suggest as a 'goal'... run around behind yourself and observe yourself objectively! *I* can't really do it... but that concept is my goal, and is the closest I can come to recognizing my own tending toward some awkward *ism.

And 16 years of posting here at Mudcat and seriously thinking about all this has done as much as anything to get me a little ways toward that elusive goal.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

I agree totally Dave.
I can not see anyone disagreeing with anything you said so I doubt there will be any battles.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Stu
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

I realise the last couple of lines were phrased a tad clumsily, as I didn't mean to single out a section of the Scottish population.

What I meant was that with the rise of nationalism in Scotland and England (in the forms of the SNP and UKIP) there seems to be a burgeoning tendency for people to distance themselves from certain stereotypes, in these cases based upon nationality and race.

So despite the fact we are a glorious mix of all nationalities on both a genetic level as individuals and culturally as a people we are moving less towards integration and more towards separation. Firstly from other people from across the world who come looking for a better life, from our fellow europeans and now from each other as the union fractures.

How this ends is anybody's guess, but my personal opinion is it won't end well for ordinary folk; it's easier to rule and manipulate a divided people. The rise of nationalism is a result of the helplessness felt by people who feel let down by government and excluded from any decision making by the establishment and the corporate interests our politicians seek to serve. This feeling is felt across the whole of the UK outside the south-east. The fact that such odious slime balls as Farage and others can make political capital from this discontent by appealing to our tribalistic urges (as Bill mentioned), further driving wedges between ordinary folk the island over is damning in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:33 PM

Being fluid, changeable creatures, influenced and bombarded by so many points-of-view,
adaptation being one of our survival techniques, going through different stages of our lives, believing and non-believing, I see no reason for any human being to be "pigeon holed".

Like you, I reject labeling whenever it is used as a weapon which is almost all the time.

I can even accept paradoxical thinking because that's a form of expression which is distinctly
human, without being categorized as "humanism".

I prefer to hear what a person has to say without chopping and dicing him or her.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 01:06 PM

I think tribalism has a big part to play, Bill. Thanks for that. You summed it up very well indeed and gave an idea I had more substance :-) When I said I do not feel guilty about the reaction that sometimes springs to mind I said it was just the way things were. The way I am. I know that everyone is more or less the same so I am sure many other people have flashes of *ism and manage to reason their way out of it. That is, I am sure, that tribal instinct that must date back to when we first stood on two legs. How and why we are different from that first man is that we now posses the intellect to see that cosmetic or cultural differences are not so important. Well, most of us anyway!

I think Robert Burns sums up the latter part of your post admirably in the words

"O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM

Or indeed, 'A man's a man for a' that.'
What an excellent post, Dave. I agree with every word.
I'm lucky in that for some reason I've always been absolutely fascinated with anything different in race, culture, music, art etc. A real xenophile! I went every Sunday to Catholic mass with my Irish cousin, then on to C of E communion with my aunt. I had a Chinese friend at Uni who taught me Cantonese. I ran a little playgroup for Indian immigrant toddlers and their mums in Glasgow (a foreign land, Scotland, to a girl from the South!) and of course my husband is a black African. No-one should be judged by stereotyping. It's daft to say things such as, "All footballers' wives are..." or "All Welsh people are..." I think wider experience of different people and curiosity about them gives one an insight to the humanity of us all. It isn't 'us' and 'them'. Everyone has their hopes, fears and sadnesses.
By the way, genetically speaking, it's better for the races to interbreed, as gene-mixing strengthens the line!
If anyone makes a battle out of this thread, it'll be very surprising. Who could disagree with Dave's points?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 04:08 PM

"By the way, genetically speaking, it's better for the races to interbreed, as gene-mixing strengthens the line! "

A good point Eliza.
It works with all species, why would it not be so with humans?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 04:19 PM

While perception of beauty is not a measure of much, IMO, the survey below does indicate that those in this society are changing their attitudes toward mixed race relationships.


""A recent study done by Allure Magazine states that Americans have changed their opinions of what is sexy from 20 years ago. The survey stated that 64% of people  think that mixed race women represent the epitome of beauty, 70% of those surveyed want their skin color to be darker and 74% believe that a curvier body is more appealing than a skinner body. It's interesting to see how the "opinion" of Americans on what is considered most beautiful has changed from 1991 till now. I personally believe that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, however, to each his own!""

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

I find it amusing and somewhat irritating too, that black African women use horrid-smelling products on their skin to make it paler, and strong chemicals on their hair to make it straighter, while many white women go to tanning salons to get browner, and use tongs on their hair to make it wavier. Completely bonkers. Not to mention older women trying to look younger, as if any sign of ageing is disgusting and unacceptable. All have in their minds a stereotype of what constitutes 'beauty'. I think the word 'acceptance' is very important, and key to being a wise human being.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:22 PM

Vivent les differences, they make the world so much less boring.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:28 AM

I suppose everybody wants to be perceived as attractive to others. If people aren't swooning at your feet, you tend to wish to change something.

What Eliza finds odd is borne of the need to sell the products that back up Marie Claire. I use them as an example as a copy was given to me recently where the article quotes a midwife who needs to be brought up to date, to put it mildly, and the article says The NHS advises this, The NHS advises that etc when referring to a midwife not quoting the guidance she has to reflect.

So what chance do we have in the airy fairy world of vanity and the cosmetic cartels?




Of course, I have never had to change a thing. All the girls love a big bald bugger. I have had to learn how to catch them as they swoon.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:19 AM

LOL Musket! I bet you're a very very charming big bald bugger.
My husband's put on a bit of weight over the years. (He was skeletally thin when I first met him.) He often teases me by referring to himself by the dreaded 'N' word, and after weighing himself in Boots yesterday he announced far too loudly, "Ha! Now I am a Bigger N*****!!" I had to hide behind the toothpaste shelves in utter shame.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:19 AM

Heavy Boots?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:41 AM

Anyone remember Blue Mink's hit "Melting pot"?

I'm quite enjoying learning about the cultural assumptions of relatives of my girlfriend. Some of them give me a wry grin (there is a definite belief that white men are in a particular respect on average less hygienic) - as do some of the assumptions that she tells me were made against her.

Several people have commented to me on the skin colour of my last girlfriend and this girlfriend (ironically one born in Crayford and the other in Islington). I find that a bit out of order. But there is definitely an assumption at a general social level that white women typify "pretty" and even "nice", whereas non white women are "exotic" and "sexy".

On the other hand - if you say "Nigerian" the word association is definitely "419".

One couple went so far as to pre-warn me (indirectly, via a friend, they had not the bottle to say it to my face) that my last girlfriend was a gold-digger and benefit scrounger. It simply was not so.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

I remember it well, Richard. thanks for reminding me. They never got anywhere in the USA so, to our American cousins, this is what you missed - You Tube Link

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:21 AM

From the greatest loss comes the greatest blessing.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:29 AM

Richard, you're right. My husband is still convinced that white people are a bit grubby. We don't wash ourselves after using the loo. (Not hands, we all do that. I mean 'elsewhere'.) and our men aren't often circumcised. He's never out of the shower, morning, noon and night. I have to say, while squeezing through crowds in enormous African markets, I have never ever smelt any body odour, although the folk were very poor, and one sweats like a pig in those temperatures. Yet our lovely Norfolk neighbour has the idea that all black people 'smell of the jungle'. There isn't much jungle left actually! Such prejudices are a bit annoying and only wider travel, experience and knowledge can dispel them.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

My husband is still convinced that white people are a bit grubby.

Stereotyping, Eliza. Warn him of the dangers! :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 01:15 PM

He does stereotype, Dave. He firmly believes that all Scotsmen run around in kilts with no underpants, and show their bottoms like baboons when annoyed. (He's got the DVD of Braveheart, which he adores, and has as yet never been to Scotland!)

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:18 PM

You are amazingly tolerant of your ignorant neighbour Eliza!

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM

We both love our neighbours, Keith, and you have to make allowances for their lack of knowledge of the wider world. They don't mean any harm, and have helped us a great deal while I was ill, and the chap has done quite a few handyman jobs for us. I've looked after their little girl when she was poorly, while mum went to work. They once gave my husband a Birthday card with a picture of a gorilla on the front, as they said it looked like him! But he laughed and didn't mind. If they were really horrible I wouldn't tolerate it, but they're such a nice family.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:35 PM

One way to eliminate the labeling *ism is to listen carefully to alternate points-of-view
to your own and weigh them carefully in a scientific manner, testing them against your own personal experience and knowledge that you have acquired.

I have, over the years, changed my opinions by listening to others, not by being defensive but evaluating another's viewpoint that conflicts with my own and then arriving at my own conclusion about it.

I have learned that any time you put an *ism after a word expressing a political or social idea,
it usually means that idea is not fully grasped. For example, how many people really know what "socialism" means? Or "libertarianism" or "communism" or "fascism"or "terrorism"?
When you put an *ist or and *ism after these words, you close off options of understanding by misappropriating the meanings and definitions that others may have.

Also, I have learned that a person's actions trump what they profess to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 06:35 PM

Radcliffe? Bloomin' rural paradise, mate. You didn't get fog that made you cough up multicoloured phlem like we did in Swinton

You lived in Swinton? Eden itself. You should have tried Salford, the air was so thick that we couldn't cough up anything. Walking to school was like wading through head high treacle, except if it had smelt of gasworks we would have thought it fragrant. There was no racism because all the white folks were black. And when the Indian restaurant opened, everyone who could afford to go there was amazed that food could actually have a taste.

Well perhaps that's a tiny exaggeration. But I'm glad that the ordinary everyday racist language that was used then - vicious in its innocence- at least has to be apologised for or consciously brazened out now.

My (Catholic) parents, though indulgent of assumptions and stereotyping that even UKIP supporters would find offensive today, always insisted that all were equal under God, and I thank them for taking their beliefs to that logical conclusion. Dave's description of his father reminds me of some uncles (the female of that species seems to have been generally less deadly).

So I've had rather less to overcome than Dave, but all the same you have to be conscious of that sneaking jump to conclusions, and double- take on it. As my sainted Granny, who would have been white had she not lived in Salford, used to say when exasperated by the misbehaviour of some grandchild, "No wonder N**s eat 'em".

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Janie
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:01 PM

I don't know, Dave. I'm not convinced that that 'ism', per se, is a problem. Seems to me 'ism' simply connotes managing information, i.e. classifying an otherwise overwhelming amount of data so that it is manageable. Seems to me the rubber meets the road when one begins to interpret data through the lens of value judgment that one then treats as "truth" is where things start getting sticky. Then we start making value judgments about the intrinsic value of people who hold the values. Not one of us humans are capable of absolute objectivity. The best we can hope or strive for is to be personally aware and accountable for our own behaviors.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:14 AM

"I suppose everybody wants to be perceived as attractive to others. "


"LOL Musket! I bet you're a very very charming big bald bugger"


A match made in heaven?    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:07 AM

But only if Eliza was a bloke eh?

Heaven is where everybody can fancy people on merit. Heaven is where there is no division between love and lust based on the gender of the other person.

Eliza, you can fantasise about me in Jack the Sailor's new book. He has based the well endowed hero on me.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:15 AM

How to avoid mudcatism....

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:37 AM

So you're big, bald and well-endowed too Musket! No wonder the girls are swooning at your feet!

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM

You lived in Swinton? Eden itself. You should have tried Salford, the air was so thick that we couldn't cough up anything. Walking to school was like wading through head high treacle, except if it had smelt of gasworks we would have thought it fragrant. There was no racism because all the white folks were black. And when the Indian restaurant opened, everyone who could afford to go there was amazed that food could actually have a taste.

Aye, but we 'ad it tough...


My mum's side were solid Salford. She went to school at Our Lady of Grace (might just have been in Prestwich). My grandad worked in the docks. If you asked him for directions to anywhere in Salford or Manchester he gave you them using only pub names!

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:22 AM

It is a semantic oddity that the 'ist/ism' suffix is ambiguous: it can imply being in favour of something ['feminist'], or against something ['ageist']. Which makes the thread's subject of '*ism' tout simple a bit equivocal.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:30 PM

Both senses tend to conjure up a certain kind of pejorative instinct. That's the beauty of English.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:01 PM

Has anyone else noticed a tendancy toward "fuck-you-isms" on mudcat lately, that is increasingly surplanting debate?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:09 PM

It is a tendency which I do not subscribe to and which I don't care for, though I'm not above a bit of name-calling when it's deserved. Oddly, the perpetrators of this horrid trend are never the targets of the moderators, who appear to operate something of a double standard in this regard (some of them, egregiously, even call some of us "pricks", for example}. I'm not complaining, just mentioning it. It's all fun to me.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:57 PM

You have no idea Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM

Having no idea still seems good enough to have you weighed up...

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:12 AM

Now, now chaps. Not the place to start Shawism, Keithism or Musketism, surely?

Michael - There are those who use 'ist' in a strictly pejorative way such as 'Stupid Feminists' or 'Militant Atheists'. The term can be completely changed by the adverb unfortunately.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:27 AM

I don't recall saying anything in that post to which "you have no idea" could possibly be applied. I do have no idea about lots of things, though. Mostly as to why homophobes, racists, bigots and all manner of other horribly prejudiced people are tolerated here to the true detriment of this board.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:00 AM

I too was a bit puzzled by 'You have no idea Steve.' No idea about what? What has Steve no idea about? His post at 8.09pm above seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:21 AM

Dave ~~ Most things can be qualified by adverbs. But the -ist suffix, used without qualification, is nevertheless ambivalently pro- or anti-.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,a.c guest
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:40 AM

The debate here gets icky because of social loafing and people with control issues.Most people stop thinking when they reach their current limit of understanding and it causes tension which keeps us stupid.If you feel tension rising on a subject let it out by exploring it, sat in the park or somewhere alone.Brainstorming in groups has its pitfalls,plenty of good research done shows this.When people feel stupid or out of their depth they panic and a sort of social grooming kicks in where we all try make our particular group feel better.Usually with meaningless yeh buts n attacks.
          As for intolerance every human animal i have met has some energetic lid/repression,even the most enlightened.(unless they go Robinson Crusoey)
          Not a criticism post as imo at least you don't shy away from topics here and i never realised there was active mods so can't be that bad.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 09:07 AM

Ed, "Has anyone else noticed a tendancy toward "fuck-you-isms" on mudcat lately, that is increasingly surplanting debate?"

Steve, "It is a tendency which I do not subscribe to and which I don't care for"

It is my impression that you are about the worst offender.
That was Big Mick's view too.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

You will not find any post of mine that directs that word to anyone. I may or may not have quoted someone else's use of it, can't remember, but even that would be a rarity. I don't use that word online because (a) I don't need to, and (b) because I post under my real name. And I take it from your comment about Big Mick's feelings that you have had it, privately, from the horse's mouth, as he has not commented publicly to that effect here, though he may well wish to, I suppose, if he reads this (but I care not a jot about what he might do). I should like to remind you, Keith, that before you make any more remarks of this nature you should remember that yourself are rather prone to calling other people here liars.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM

you yourself

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:34 AM

and too many cussed 'cosses....

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM

"Fuck-you-ism" is a description not a script.
I would say it describes your style of posting.

I only call someone a liar when it is unequivocally proven that they have lied, never for expressing an opinion however wrong I might think it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Musket
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:31 PM

Excellent Keith.

"I only call etc etc"

Your track record makes that about the most brazen terminological inexactitude you have come out with yet!

Funny, you call me a liar yet I have never told a single one. You call Jim a liar when he states an opinion and it is perfectly clear that he has done just that, stated an opinion. You quote the opinions of a few hand picked historians, usually out of context and call anyone a liar who disagrees with them, usually scoffing that anyone could disagree with three experts.

Who miraculously happen to say something that feeds your prejudice.

Fascinating, really fascinating.

You and Goofus should start a debating circle. You could have your pet worm sat in the audience having orgasms whilst delighting himself listening to your erudite wit.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM

True, Michael. I think you may find that atheist is used in a pejorative manner in certain circles, but I do understand what you mean.

Cheers

DtG

PS - What did I say about battlefields?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:20 PM

Jim stated I had said things I never had.

You lied about an atrocity in Nigeria that never happened.
You also claimed to have downloaded a quote that Google could not find except for your post.
You claimed it came from a National Council of Mosques website when there is no such thing.

I do not lie and can not understand why you two do it.
If I have made a mistake about anything please be specific about it and I will of course correct it at once.

Confident prediction-you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:31 PM

Why did I leave Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:39 PM

Keith, darling: That was Big Mick's view too.

Big Mick does appear to have taken against me somewhat (his problem, as he has abundantly revealed, as with the now-silent SRS, but hey).

But Big Mick has not, to date, posted to this forum that it is his view that I am "the worst offender". Yet you told us all here that this was Big Mick's view. Now this may well be Big Mick's view (how would we know, as, so far, he hasn't stated it thus?), so, either Big Mick has told you in a private communication that it is his view that I'm the worst offender, or you are a liar. Which is it, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:52 PM

Steve....Keith said, "about the worst offender"....and I believe those were Micks words.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:58 PM

When did the thread become the battlefield? Answers in a plain brown envelope...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:35 PM

Steve....Keith said, "about the worst offender"....and I believe those were Micks words.

Quote, please.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 07:13 PM

"Why did I leave Mudcat?"

I never noticed you leaving, as you were replaced by a dozen, or more, other posters by the same name, Mr. or Ms. Guest ;)

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:34 AM

If Steve wants the title worst offender he is going to have to fight for it.

And fight dirty.

After all, we appear to have a gang on these threads etc etc. They even have gang names to make them look cool. The worm, Keith A Hole of Hertford, Goofus. They roam the 'cat, looking for other gangs, mainly those in their (in)fertile imagination and find every opportunity to have a pop cos the other gangs have found out that their mums let them out in last week's underwear and taunt them about it in class.

How to overcome isms? I reckon they are an instinctive survival trait. Just that some if us are better than others in keeping them to ourselves and not using them to judge others. Especially others who just happen to have been born and have had no impact on other people who happen to have opinions about them and their lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:45 AM

Big Mick, "And by the way, you post nasty, belittling shit in an arrogant manner, then you whine about being stalked. No one is stalking you, they are responding to your obnoxious attitude. My guess is you lose friends in the 3D world due to that attitude. Buck up lad, put your big boy pants on and quit whining. Either that or spend some time in reflection on why you are received poorly by decent folks trying to engage in constructive discourse"

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM

The worm, Keith A Hole of Hertford, Goofus. They roam the 'cat, looking for other gangs,

The overwhelming majority of my posting in recent months has been to threads about WW1, Israel, and Ireland.
GFS and Akenaton did not contribute so that is just another empty accusation.

Why will you never just respond to what I actually post?
Because my posts contain nothing you can challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:50 AM

Keith - Honestly not singling you out for special attention but I do find it ironic that the last statement of your first post on this thread says "I doubt there will be any battles."

As I think I have said before. Never mind who started the battle. It is the one who finishes it that plays the most important part. Or some such :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:14 AM

Steve Shaw
It is a tendency which I do not subscribe to and which I don't care for, though I'm not above a bit of name-calling when it's deserved.

Ya gorra larf.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:18 AM

I'd go further Dave. It's those who get to write the history of the battle....



Not to mention those who revere the historian.





Keith. I said I have stopped trying to educate pork, and I meant it.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:55 AM

I would not say I revere historians, but I believe them over you on matters of History.

You might persuade pork to believe you know more, but not anything capable of thought.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:05 AM

Steve Shaw
It is a tendency which I do not subscribe to and which I don't care for, though I'm not above a bit of name-calling when it's deserved.

Ya gorra larf.

Yes, injecting humour into one's posts can be a risk, but I do try.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM

Well, Keith, you quote Big Mick's somewhat ironic, uncomplimentary and red mist-induced rant in support of your claim that he shares your opinion that I'm "the worst offender" (even though I don't use *that* word, the supposed source of offence). Well here it is again:

"And by the way, you post nasty, belittling shit in an arrogant manner, then you whine about being stalked. No one is stalking you, they are responding to your obnoxious attitude. My guess is you lose friends in the 3D world due to that attitude. Buck up lad, put your big boy pants on and quit whining. Either that or spend some time in reflection on why you are received poorly by decent folks trying to engage in constructive discourse"

So, Keith,(he asks with puzzled expression and knitted brow), where exactly is the bit that says I'm "the worst offender"? Not there, is it? Keith, this is what you do all the time. You finesse the evidence to fit your preconceptions, then you dig yourself hopelessly in. Some would call it lying.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:38 AM

I know Dave tried in all humility to start a serious post.

However, once the school bell rings for playtime, the kids from the dodgy estate come into the playground and try to impress us by saying how good they are.

I wouldn't necessarily call it lying Steve, but in the spirit of the thread, it is certainly thick cuntism.

Lying means you understand what you say.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:50 AM

I know, but some, when suitably exasperated, would call it lying. Liverpool are doing far too well at the moment for me to feel exasperated about anything, which is why I didn't actually call the poor fellow a liar. Go, Stevie G!

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

We'll have less of that scousist attitude if you don't mind.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:00 AM

He did not say you were the worst and nor did I.
Among the worst I said.

He certainly singled you out on his thread about obstreperous pricks.
No-one else was criticised anything like that.
I have been following his posts for nearly twenty years and I have never seen him rail against anyone like that.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:10 AM

What do you call lying Steve?
It is my opinion that you are among the worst offenders.
That is true. It really is.
It is my opinion that Mick's post corroborates that.
That is also true.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:11 AM

Thatcher dead.
Ferguson retired with an Everton has been sat at his desk.
Liverpool heading for the league title.


Somewhere in Murkeyside, there's a scouser with a lamp and no wishes left.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 12:07 PM

Steve Shaw
even though I don't use *that* word

You use "twat" quite a lot though.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:14 PM

Thread drift:-

I believe Liverpool are coming here to play Norwich. Oh Lord! We're only a step away from relegation and we have to face The Reds. Predicted score (as we've hardly won anything this season and our manager has been kicked out at this late stage) 10-0, and down we go. My husband's in despair. He's going to give all his Norwich City strips to his African family when he visits them in August.

Right. Sorry to interrupt the heated discussion. Please continue...

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:11 PM

Eliza

I have given up on footballism entirely and I feel the same way about Manchester City! It's not my local team but I was so hopeful for them at one point, in fact football for me has been one big let down of late.

For once I am actually dreading the World Cup.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:27 PM

Hello there Patsy! Nice to hear from you again!

I've always been quite keen on Norwich City, our Canaries. And when we 'went up' everybody was so overjoyed. My husband shot off to their store and got all the gear. But he's laughing about Liverpool coming here on Sunday, he's says it'll be a massacre.
I don't fancy the World Cup either. I like the African Cup. But like you, I feel footie has gone down a bit in excitement and it seems a bit pedestrian at the moment.

Sorry everyone else about this v naughty thread drift. Perhaps I'm guilty of Driftism.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:58 PM

"Both senses {ism and ist}tend to conjure up a certain kind of pejorative instinct. That's the beauty of English."

How do you know that there are no guitarists following this thread, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:11 PM

Guitarist is an exception. Banjoist isn't :-P

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:55 PM

Followers of football (those from the colonies call it "soccer" although the correct name is "association football") are all morons.

Musket - 7.38 am Mudcat time - wholly wrong. The council estate kids would ambush the clever children on the way home and beat them up while pretending that ignorance was good.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:06 PM

I'm rather fond of Norwich, as I have all Delia's cookery books and regard her as something of a Messiah-ess. Indeed, I shall be doing her pork chops in cream and mushrooms this very weekend. I wish Norwich all the best, though the Liverpool game is one I wouldn't really be wanting them to win. Let's hope it's a good 'un!

By the way, Keith, keep trying, but, if you can manage it, simultaneously piss off.

By the way, Snail, I have always regarded "twat" as a term of endearment. Sorry you never saw it that way. It's bit like those shackledraggers - oops, Aussies - who affectionately greet their mates with "hey, g'day, long time no see, you old bastard!" If you really regard "twat" as being in the same league as the f-word (okay, fuck) or the c-word (okay, cunt), then you really need to get out more. Or come out of your shell. And congratulations for being the first person in tens of thousands of my internet posts to get me to type those two words, though you'll note I only did it Guardian-style, a paper which, to its eternal credit, refuses to print such stupidities as "f*ck" or "c*nt". That said, you won't see me typing them ever again. Now if you really don't like bad language, I suggest you turn your attentions to Wacko, lest I conclude that any enemy of your enemy must be your friend. Respectfully yours.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:25 AM

YES !!

Back of the net!

I said dodgy estate. Bridge read it as council estate. Now who needs to demonstrate egalitarianism?

When I was at school, there was a new estate built where the aspirants went to live. We called it the dodgy estate because some of the kids thought they were better than us. I remember when I started earning and said the money was good but not good enough for the dodgy estate, my mate summed it up as "new car on the drive but no snap in the pantry. "

Inverse elitism.

Two isms for the price of one there.

I am sure there is an ism for strange people who are incapable of enjoying or even understanding the joys of football but three in one post? That would be a bridge too far.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:38 AM

Ideologist?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM

That's a remarkable extrapolation to ny simple (and true) statement that you use "twat" quite a lot, Steve. Nothing to do with anything I said.

(I have not paid any attention to Jack the Sailor for quite some time.)

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Toolter who can't be arsed to login on his i
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:25 AM

I am sure there is an ism for strange people who are incapable of enjoying or even understanding the joys of football but three in one post? That would be a bridge too far.

How about "sensiblism" or just plain sensible and forget the "ism" bit?

Boom! boom!

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:34 AM

Something missing from their lives ism.

I tried to put sad ism but it came out as sadism. I suppose you have to have something to do on a Saturday afternoon whilst the rest of us are having a fulfilling experience, the highs, lows and even lowers for that matter....





Here, Bridge. Do you still drive a dodgy estate?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:34 AM

Steve, I see Delia quite a bit around Norwich. She goes to Mass in St John's, where I too sometimes attend, in an ecumenical way.
I've always liked the Reds, and I'm secretly glad that they're right up there once more!
'Followers of football are all morons.' That's quite a sweeping 'ism' Richard. I'm quite prepared to class myself as a moron compared to some very erudite folk I know, but not solely because I enjoy football.
Stereotyping is a trap we can all fall into. God forgive me, I feel very 'ismist' about Romanians and other E Europeans pouring into the UK, a kind of wicked Nationalism. But God has recently put me right and thoroughly smacked my bottom. We came across a poor chap making a sculpture of a dog out of sand in the centre of Norwich. I was fascinated and spoke to him. It turned out he was Romanian, and he stood there in a cold wind with hunger and despair in his eyes. I felt tremendous pity and respect for him, and handed him a tenner (which had been meant to get us some lunch!) This was guilt-money for my prejudice 'ism', and I will sincerely try to get these ideas out of my head in future. One has to be on one's guard against nastiness like mine.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Stu
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:37 AM

"Followers of football (those from the colonies call it "soccer" although the correct name is "association football") are all morons. "

Thanks Rich. You know me so well.

Mind you, I'm sort of absolved by the fact as a lifelong Aston Villa fan at present every time I'm watching them I'm not really watching football as such, but a sort of mummer's farce parading played out by an increasingly confused and disparate group of people with little common interest and little sense of obligation to actually try to win a game.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:25 AM

Are there no artists on mudcat, no scientists , no saxophonists , nobody who believes in professionalism?

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:41 AM

Nice one, mayomick :-) There are plenty of apologists and, to keep coming back, I guess I must be a masochist! I didn't realise that I would be creating a schism though...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

A few piss artists if that counts?

My mum used to tell me to steer clear of saxophonists.

Professionalism commands professional rates. Here, I'm happy to rant without charging for the benefit.

Actually, there are a number of scientists. A bit of a bugger to see them trying to ply their trade against pig ignorance though. I'm no expert on 99.9999998% of matters but on the few where I can give an informed view, the prejudge and hate merchants sneer and reiterate subjective data they don't know how to interpret.

Thinking on, Mudcat is a bit like reality, except you don't have to stare at their ugly mugs.

Subject: RE: BS: How to overcome *ism...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:53 PM

(I have not paid any attention to Jack the Sailor for quite some time.)

You are gaining my respect more and more by the day.