BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

Sorry - didn't quite finish
Friendly fire is a term coined by the U.S. to neutralise the killing of ones own troops.
It is what Keith described and it is how you have depicted the firing of rockets that (apparently) were worth slaughtering nearly 2000 people over.
Keep up, O Belligerent One
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:54 AM

"Can we say that YOUR bringing them up implies that YOU support them?"
As I did not bring them up - no you can not.
I find all such weapons obscene and condemn their use - whoever uses them.
Unlike you people who have openly supported the slaughter of nearly 2000 hman beings using all the weapons at their disposal
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM

"They are not an illegal weapon, but it is illegal to use any weapons on civilians."
Which was pointed out to you at the very beginning
To most human beings (find and ask one) the legality of such weapons in no way detracts from the fact that they are inhuman
"Flechettes are just a new form of shrapnel."
Nuclear weapons are just a new form of hand grenades - you are still downgrading the effect of these weapons
Flechettes are missiles deliberately designed to scatter dart-shaped, streamlined fragments into any human being who comes in their path - they have no function other than that - they are anti-personnel weapons
Fact
They were used indiscriminately in built-up areas making their use a war-crime
Fact
This has been pointed out by independents observers, including the Israeli B'Tsalem
Fact
Describing them as merely another form of shrapnel is to support their use - ie to support a war crime
Fact
"I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians,"
You have supported the use of flecchettes by denying their use and by minimising their effect, as you are still doing.
Fact
I ask again WHY ARE YOU SUPPORTING THE USE OF THESE OBSCENITIES ON HUMAN BEINGS AND ATTEMPTING TO UNDERMINE THEIR EFFECT AND THE DFACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USED WHEN THE ISRAELIS HAVE MADE NO SUCH CLAIM - ARE YOU ON THEIR PAYROLL OR IS IT JUST A LITTLE HOBBY OF YOURS?
"So, where is it Jim?"
I have presented your having supported the use of this shit
I have presented your having supported white phosphorus
I have presented your having supported selling weapons, ammunition and riot control equipment to Assad (and your actually proposing he be sold more)
I have presented your having supported selling him chemicals which were capable of being turned into weapons
I have presented your supporting the sale of weapons to terrorist states
I have presented your supporting the use of chemicals on Bedouins in order to drive them off their land
And much, much more - in some cases several times over.
Where is what exactly?
Juicy Brucie:
What is the point of your link other than to reiterate their ineffectual and the incompetence of those using them?
Israel has just slaughtered around 2000 human beings in the name of 'defence' from these missiles - massive overkill in anybody's book, even if the 2000 were all fighters - they were not of course - the vast majority of the dead were non combatants, a large percentage of those being children.
Whose side are you on here - make up yur mind Weirdy Beardie!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:39 AM

"or were the result of Hamas 'friendly fire' all constitutes support for their use."

???? How does stating that HAMAS uses anti-personnel warheads, with enhanced shrapnel such as nails and ball bearings imply support for their use?


YOU have talked about massacres- Can we say that YOUR bringing them up implies that YOU support them?

Or is this ANOTHER case of you having two sets of values, one to apply to yourself, and one to apply to those who dare disagree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

Yes you have - you made the point that they were "legal" after it had been pointed out to you that they had been used in built-up areas.
The obscene fact that they are legal in some circumstances has never been in question.

I was correct then Jim.
They are not an illegal weapon, but it is illegal to use any weapons on civilians.

Your declaring they were, coupled with your comparing them to early nineteenth century
That is when shrapnel shells were first used.
Flechettes are just a new form of shrapnel.
Fact.

or were the result of Hamas 'friendly fire'
That was a reference to "nail shrapnel" reported in your link.
Nails are not used as shrapnel in commercially produced munitions, but Hamas have used them.

I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny

So, where is it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AqhTaNadeGV6H.zY6_ESqKKbvZx4?p=hamas+rockets+shrapnel&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-74

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:11 AM

"And I have never claimed they are"
Yes you have - you made the point that they were "legal" after it had been pointed out to you that they had been used in built-up areas.
The obscene fact that they are legal in some circumstances has never been in question.
Your declaring they were, coupled with your comparing them to early nineteenth century and calling into question that they have ever been used or were the result of Hamas 'friendly fire' all constitutes support for their use.
Are you ever going to explain why you should adopt the role of spokesman for a terrorist state which has never suggested any of the above.
You are a fanatical Sickophant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:21 AM

NO WEAPON IS LEGAL " when used indiscriminately in built-up areas"!!!

(And I have never claimed they are.)

Flechette munitions ARE legal and ARE just a new kind of shrapnel.
Fact, not my opinion.

Same old false accusations.
" you've proved that by taking up cudgels of behalf of a terrorist state's having used illegal weapons of a civilian population"

I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny

So, where is it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:15 AM

Can Mr Mouthie-Mather really not see that his relativistic foolishness is the equivalent of declaring that, as all illness is to be regretted, it will be 'stupidity' to be more worried about getting cancer than getting a cold?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM

"So, where is it?"
Are you actually denying that you have claimed them to be "legal" when they are decidedly not when used indiscriminately in built-up ares, that they were probably from Hamas shells, that they are no different from shrapnel emitted from shells dating back to Napoleonic times, that there is no evidence of them having been used when photographs have been presented of spent ones and others embedded in walls.... all in the light of tha fact that Israel not only has them in their arsenal, has used them before and has not denied their use now
Then you add both stupidity and blatant dishonesty to your CV - they were there anyway.
You choose not to mention the other examples I gave of your despicable inhumanity - I assume you accept it without comment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM

"to single out one superstition above others just shows the stupidity of otherwise intelligent people seeing imaginary friend nonsense to justify bigotry."

.,,.

So to 'single out above the others' the only one whose 'bigotry' enjoins that they will judicially kill any of its members who change their mind and decide that another one might suit them better, as being even more mischievous and worthy of condemnation than any of the others, is 'stupidity', is it. I've heard of foolish relativism; but this is idiocy unworthy even of the egregious Mr Mouthie-Mather.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:57 AM

That shuts up (though they won't keep quiet) those who say nobody gives a shit about anything other than Israel bashing..

No.
US government was not accused of that.
Others were, and still are.
UN general assembly.
The liberal left, esp. on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

The American President has decided that ISIS is destabilising the region and has authorised action.

That shuts up (though they won't keep quiet) those who say nobody gives a shit about anything other than Israel bashing..

If a few people want to fly a flag, then getting upset about it furthers the cause they are duped into.

Same as if people want to defend Israeli aggression on Mudcat, it's a free country, do so. It isn't as if either are calling UK citizens second class.

Both stances are shunned by normal decent people though, as is their right too.




Am I dreaming, or did Poo Bad just say that Islam as a religion isn't peaceful? Well, no it isn't in the same way any other superstition is. Israeli terrorists hide behind the Jewish faith when it suits them, (even though many Jews oppose their aggression,) Christians try to colonise the world anyway, see US military for details, and the Caliphate scenario requires something that if it is the will of free choice would be a coincidence.

But to single out one superstition above others just shows the stupidity of otherwise intelligent people seeing imaginary friend nonsense to justify bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:44 AM

Better than someone who read English at Cambridge & pursued a long joint career as teacher & journalist? Hmmmm!

Actually, I have remarked before that Richard obviously has certain knowledge & talents; but as to his views on semantics & linguistics, I wouldn't give you a dime a dozen for such...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM

Ah but MGM-Lion they are not going to kill a great number they are going to kill them all (admittedly a great number if anyone wishes to be pedantic about it) so they are not going to be "decimated" they are going to be annihilated, or exterminated.

If people wish to use language incorrectly then that is up to them - but in the case of Richard Bridge I would have thought that someone trained in the law would know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM

ISIS flag over London.
Guardian 1 hour ago.

"In a highly provocative gesture, the emblem was planted on top of the gates of the Will Crooks estate on Poplar High Street, and is surrounded by flags of Palestine and slogans.

The flag bears similar writing to the jihadi flags that have been flown by the extremist group in Iraq and other jihadi groups since the 1990s. When the estate was approached last night, a group of about 20 Asian youths swore at Guardian journalists and told them to leave the area immediately. One youth threatened to smash a camera.

When a passerby tried to take a picture of the flag on a phone, one of the gang asked him if he was Jewish. The passerby replied: "Would it make a difference?" The youth said: "Yes, it fucking would." Asked if the flag was an Isis flag, one local man said: "It is just the flag of Allah." But another man asked: "So what if it is?"

One local man said that the flag has been there for several days. "People were taking photos of it last night," he said. A Metropolitan police spokesman said on Thursday that they had received no complaints about offensive flags in the Tower Hamlets area. The Dutch government has banned the public display of the Isis flag, but it is not illegal in the UK."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:58 AM

You have set out deliberately to offset, downgrade and deny the use of flechette weapons since it was first announced that they had been used.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny
So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:50 AM

"Decimate" originally meant "kill every 10th man"; done by Romans to subdue rebellious colonial elements, &c. But a word's original etymology doesn't always condition the way it becomes used, first perhaps idiomatically [perhaps due to misunderstanding or hyperbole], and eventually as standard., I should say that 'decimate' has probably just about past the idiomatic point of no return, and has acquired the meaning of "kill a great number of" as one of its possible standard usages, and it is in vain to go on being dogmatic about it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:05 AM

"Even you should know that, in war, the mere fact that one has been attacked (and you should realise that there are a number of grounds for saying that the "attacks" on Israel are justifiable self-defence) does not entitle one to be "as nasty as one likes"." - Richard Bridge

You are obviously one of the fools that thinks that in war there are rules? If you were ever to find yourself in a situation where you are fighting for your very life then you appreciate one truth and the existence of only one rule - WIN.

Best put by Admiral Jackie Fisher in what he referred to as his 3 "R's" of war - Ruthless, Relentless, Remorseless.

Or - "The essence of war IS violence. Moderation in war is imbecility: Hit first; Hit hard; Keep on hitting."

By the way decimate does not mean extermination, it does even mean wipe out, to decimate means to reduce by one tenth.

In refusing to extend the ceasefire in Gaza, Hamas, in the eyes of the world have just thrown away any PR advantage they ever thought that they had won - they will be seen for exactly what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:19 AM

"Terrytoon the Twat ... [with] his penis-substitute 'weapon'"

.,,.

You took some exception to my using the word of you once long since, IIRC, Jim; but if above formulations don't invite response in some such form as "Carroll the Cunt", then I'll take vanilla.

Pots'n'Kettles, Fair's Fair, 'n' all that jazz...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

I know precisely what decimate means and the way I used it was perfectly accurate. You do not deserve rational discussion. Even you should know that, in war, the mere fact that one has been attacked (and you should realise that there are a number of grounds for saying that the "attacks" on Israel are justifiable self-defence) does not entitle one to be "as nasty as one likes".

So now that President Obama is considering military strikes against ISIS perhaps you will admit that the parallels with Korea and Vietnam are becoming more obvious. Perhaps now you will admit that you are wrong to say that no-one has noticed ISIS, and perhaps you will stop arguing that because people ought to condemn ISIS they should stop condemning Israel.

But I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:58 AM

"It is not opinion it is an explanation of international law."
Do you not find that more than a little arrogant that you should take it upon yourself to explain anything to anybody - you are spectacularly ignorant of virtually everything you discuss - what makes you think you you are any more knowledgeable than anybody else here (we realise that we can't claim "infallibility", as you have on several occasions but we are capable of looking things up for ourselves")?
Your arrogance, combined with your ignorance makes you a very sad individual.
You have set out deliberately to offset, downgrade and deny the use of flechette weapons since it was first announced that they had been used.
You have been joined in that by your wannabe military moron friend.
It is no coincidence that you both did exactly the same when white phosphorus was used over Gaza - when you were show photographs of children with their faces burned to the bone by that shit, you passed it off as "harmless illuminations" - refusing to comment on the burned and permanently disfigured children.
Israel has now accepted that its use is illegal and declared that they would cease to do so, yet there are reports of it having been used again in the recent slaughter.
Your military nutcase, in his usual arrogantly sneery way, did the same thing with napalm and carcinogenic Agent Orange, both standbys of the United States in Vietnam and both used by Israel at one time or another against the Gazans and the Bedouins.
Terrytoon the Twat described 'Orange' as a harmless chemical spray, and in his inimitable way, refused to comment on the fact that U.S. pilots returned from Vietnam to find that they were displaying symptoms of cancer from coming into contact with this obscene weapon - we have graphic images of what it did to the Vietnamese people.
Harmless - legal - what kind of animals would even venture such arguments when this shit is used on human beings, particularly on non combatant men women and children,irrespective of their age, state of health or general situation?
You and he have made a point of displaying yourselves as exactly that sort of animal (the wrong word - animals don't behave in that despicable fashion).
As far as flechettes are concerned, don't you consider it a teensy-weensy bit grotesque that, given the fact that they have been a standard part of the Israeli arsenal for at least four years, that they are known to have been used by them in the past (according to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem), and particularly that the Israeli's have never at any time denied their use - don't you find it disturbing that you should even bother to defend its use, downgrade it to "shrapnel", declare it "legal" or even question that it should have been used here by a regime that has seen fit to use tanks, bombs, heavy mortar-fire and all the means at their disposal to kill nearly two thousand human beings and reduce their homes, along with hospitals, schools and vital public facilities to rubble?
To a degree I understand Terrytoon - a frustrated wannabe warrior reduced to becoming a gun-nut happy to show us his penis-substitute 'weapon' on this forum and, no doubt, strutting his stuff with his mates nightly down the pub.
You claim to have been a teacher - is this what you taught your kids was right and wrong?
You say you are a "Christian" and proudly declare the you pray for us - is this your idea of Christianity?
Thank God I'm an atheist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 01:27 AM

"I am now puzzled. You seem to say that the Iraqi forces and Shia militias can defeat ISIS and don't need outside help - yet you are bewailing the lack of outside help."

Ehmmmm no Richard, on the ground and in the air even with the tiny air force they have Iraqi forces and the Shia militias could defeat ISIS on their own but that would and will take time. But those under seige and threat of extermination from ISIS forces at present do not have that time so help from the International community is required - in short a humanitarian/military operation is required now, and the President of the United States has just announced that targeted airstrikes will now be made against ISIS as well as humanitarian relief flights to drop supplies of food water and medicine to those trapped in the mountains by ISIS.

>"In more detail - you admit that the Iraqis used air power against the Kurds, and above asserted that the Kurd were saved by a no-fly zone."

In 1991 the Kurds were not saved solely by the imposition of a "no-Fly Zone" - they were saved by physical intervention on the ground (Courtesy of 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines) and British, US and French aircraft holding Saddam's air force off. Enforcing a "No Fly Zone" on its own over the Southern part of Iraq did not protect the Shia Arabs of Iraq as the Safwan ceasefire permitted Saddam to fly helicopters - supposedly for "humanitarian purposes" as bridges had been destroyed. Instead the helicopters flown were Mil-24 "Hind" Gunships and over 200,000 Iraqis died (Courtesy of Saddam Hussein).


"But ISIS has (pretty much) no air capability. It might have captured some aircraft but it has very few if any pilots. So Western air power cannot save from ISIS (unless they attack ISIS directly)."

Pssst Richard I think that that is precisely what is about to happen.


"I said "decimate or worse". Extermination is worse. So I was right in my formulation.   I nowhere said or implied that that was all right. My point was as above - that air power was an irrelevance."

No you did not say "decimate or worse" - you said "decimate (or worse)". Perhaps you should look up the literal meaning of the word "decimate", not the slack, inaccurate and idiotic way the word is used. As far as air power being irrelevant? ISIS is just about to find out exactly what air power when properly applied can do. All they have to do is review the coverage of airstrikes made on Saddam's forces during Desert Storm, or perhaps what happened to the Taliban in Afghanistan between October and December 2001 - perhaps we will have a "grainy photo" of ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi sat astride the pillion seat of a motor bike as he leaves Iraq for the "safety" of Syria.
   

"You are wrong that there is no outcry. The Guardian is covering it."

Oh WOW, that'll make all the difference then won't it - The Guinard FFS.

"In short you are simply saying "It's all right for Israel to be nasty because others are worse".    That's (a) pointless (b) silly.

Comparing apples to oranges Richard and you know it. Israel can be as nasty as it likes because it has been attacked and is defending itself against an enemy that has the full support of the people of Gaza and an enemy that has rejected any peace deal on offer and who has just refused to extend the current ceasefire. Whatever deaths and injuries caused in Gaza from this point forward are down to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:19 PM

Now that is blatant prejudice and should not be tolerated, Poo-bad. Your assertion "Islam is not a religion of peace" attributes the evils of ISIS to all Muslims. You put yourself beyond the pale.

Further, your attacks on Muslims - even if they were generically true - would be no reason not to criticise Israel for its inhumanity and land-grab of dubious legality or worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:53 PM

Islam is not a religion of peace. The Islamic State is currently engaged in a campaign of genocide against the Yazidi minority in Iraq under the banner "there is no god but Allah."

Radical Islamist fighters captured the northern Iraqi town of Sinjar over the weekend, and in the process engaged in a campaign of unspeakable cruelty, butchering hundreds of Yazidi, and forcing tens of thousands of others to flee into the mountains in an attempt to escape the blood thirsty Muslims.

Yazidi men and boys were butchered in the streets, while the "women and girls are being used as concubines, and sold in the markets."

Secular Humanist

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:15 PM

Good on the US but shame on Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who have hundreds of aircraft and could easily have helped rescue the Christians, Shias and Yazidi Kurds, but chose not to.

President Obama approves humanitarian air drops in Northern Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:35 PM

What happened to R2P?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:01 PM

So what? Israel, unlike its neighbours, tolerates dissent. 95% of the population would disagree with Levy. How many Brits were supporters of Hitler?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:06 PM

The prevalence of warmongering in Israel - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/gaza-israel-movement-that-dare-not-speak-its-name

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM

That was a BB quote Jim!
No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny
So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:40 PM

When did I say that Jim?
It is not opinion it is an explanation of international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:37 PM

Richard, on BBC TV 6pm it got about one minute as the fifth item.
Gaza followed with another long report where Gazans vent their feelings and accusations against Israel with no reply.
BB had to search out coverage while Gaza has been wall to wall for weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:33 PM

"ANY civilians killed while being used as human shields are the responsibility OF THE PARTY USING THEM AS SHIELDS."
You mean all those Israli soldiers who sat children on their vehicles, or set up observer posts in Gazan homes (then shat in all the cooking utensils when they left - remember that one), or fired rockets from a kindergarten, o#r forced children to walk in front of them into suspected minefields all deserve to die.
Your opinion - not mine Pervy Brucie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM

Jim, same old false accusations.
No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny
So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

BB - Is not what you say about ISIS not self contradictory. You complain that no-one criticises ISIS, then you produce swathes of press about the Isis crisis. You say that nobody is helping then produce details of a relief air-drop.

I asked you what could be done to STOP Isis - and you produce information that the US is ruling out military action and very ambivalent (at best) information about the land campaign.

You're starting to sound a bit like Akenhateon - everything is wrong but you cannot or will not specify what would be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:27 PM

Jimmy,

ANY civilians killed while being used as human shields are the responsibility OF THE PARTY USING THEM AS SHIELDS.


So either remember YOU are criticizing your friends in Hamas, or continue to lie about who is killing Palestinian civilians- Hamas, either by using them as shields, or by hitting them with anti-personnel rockets, or by shooting them in the back of the head.

"Hamas executions against its own people is back in the news.

Hamas has allegedly executed 20 Palestinians who participated in an anti-war protest in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10. The Palestinians allegedly were rounded up by Hamas and summarily executed as alleged Israeli collaborators.

There were also reports on July 28 that Hamas has allegedly executed 30 suspected collaborators so far, but it is not clear whether that number includes the 20 anti-war protestors.

Unnamed Palestinian security sources in Gaza told Palestine Press News Agency that Hamas has reportedly managed to apprehend dozens of suspected spies in the northern neighborhood of Shejaiya and summarily executed them after a short investigation. The sources allegedly said that many of the suspects were caught with weapons, telephones, and SIM cards from the Israeli cell provider Orange.

Hamas has undertaken numerous anti-collaboration campaigns in the Gaza Strip over the past few years, offering amnesty to repentant Israeli spies. In May, the Hamas government executed two condemned collaborators for divulging information that Israel used to kill two Palestinians.

In November 2012, Hamas men on motorcycles were filmed dragging the bodies of accused collaborators through the streets of Gaza.

Human Rights Watch and other watchdogs have condemned the summary execution of collaborators in Gaza."


But the stooges probably APPROVE of killing those that disagree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

"I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all."
Yes you have Keith - you are the loudest and most persistent supporter of Israeli terrorism
You have denied the destruction of hospitals, then when your arguments were disproved, you justified these attacks because you claimed terrorists were hiding there - in other words, you have defended the slaughter of hostages (whether they were or not is immaterial)
You have denied the use of flechette weapons even though you were shown photographs of them.
You then went on to justify their use as being "legal" which they aren't when used on non-combatants.
all this on behalf of the Israelis, who have never denied their use and who have used them before
How far do you want me to go back Sabra/Shatila, selling chemicals to Assad, suggesting he be armed with riot control equipment i order to fill his torture chambers and gaols, condoning the asle of "a handful of sniper rifles(sic).... how long have you got?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

WASHINGTON — President Obama is considering airstrikes or airdrops of food and medicine to address a humanitarian crisis among as many as 40,000 religious minorities in Iraq who have been dying of heat and thirst on a mountaintop after death threats from the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, administration officials said on Thursday.

The president, in meetings with his national security team at the White House on Thursday morning, has been weighing a series of options ranging from dropping humanitarian supplies on Mount Sinjar to military strikes on the fighters from ISIS now at the base of the mountain, a senior administration official said.

"There could be a humanitarian catastrophe there," a second administration official said, adding that a decision from Mr. Obama was expected "imminently — this could be a fast-moving train."

The administration official said that "the president is weighing both passive and active options," defining passive action as dropping humanitarian supplies. He added, using an alternative name for ISIS, "More active, we could target the ISIL elements that are besieging the base of the mountain."

Mr. Obama made no mention of imminent military action as he traveled to Fort Belvoir in the Virginia suburbs on Thursday to sign legislation to overhaul the troubled Department of Veterans Affairs. Top officials were in the meantime gathering at the White House to discuss the possible Iraq action.

The administration had been delaying taking any military action against ISIS until there is a new Iraqi government. Both White House and Pentagon officials have said privately that the United States would not intervene militarily until Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki stepped down.

But administration officials said on Thursday that the crisis on Mount Sinjar may be forcing their hand. About 40 children have already died from the heat and dehydration, according to Unicef, while as many as 40,000 people have been sheltering in the bare mountains without food, water or access to supplies.

The administration officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. One official said that any military action would be "limited, specific and achievable," noting that Mr. Maliki's political party was supposed to announce a new candidate for prime minister on Thursday, but had not yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

As for "lies" name them.

Here is your most recent on this thread Jim.
" you've proved that by taking up cudgels of behalf of a terrorist state's having used illegal weapons of a civilian population"

I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:50 PM

France has called an emergency meeting of Security Council about Iraq.

Will there be any General Assembly resolutions denouncing Isis atrocities?
Of course not.
Like Mudcat they will be too busy just denouncing Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM

Kirkuk (Iraq) (AFP) - Iraqi government forces, Shiite militiamen and Kurdish troops launched a large operation Thursday to free Amerli, a Turkmen town that has been besieged by jihadists for 50 days, officials said.

"The Iraqi army, (Shiite) volunteers and (Kurdish) peshmerga, equipped with heavy artillery and backed by the air force, have launched an operation to break the siege of Amerli and clear the neighbouring town of Sulaiman Bek," the mayor of neighbouring Tuz Khurmatu, Shallal Abdul Baban, told AFP.

He said four Shiite militiamen and two Iraqi soldiers had already been killed in the offensive, which began before dawn.

Abdul Baban also said 39 other Iraqi troops and volunteers, as well as four peshmerga, were wounded.

A regional security official and a peshmerga source confirmed the information.

The anti-jihadist forces were said to be only three kilometres (two miles) from Amerli, a town of 20,000 mainly Shiite Turkmen that has been completely surrounded by Islamic State militants since June 18.

For weeks, residents had appealed for a military intervention and warned that food, medication and water were in short supply.

It was not immediately clear how close the pro-government forces were to breaking the siege imposed by jihadists who had been controlling all 34 villages around Amerli.

For weeks, government forces had remained south of Amerli, apparently unable to push any further, and peshmerga forces had maintained positions in Tuz Khurmatu, apparently unwilling to move.

The string of setbacks suffered by the peshmerga in recent days and the federal forces' inability to regain the ground it lost when IS launched its major offensive two months ago have led to mounting domestic and international pressure for Baghdad and the Kurds to set aside their differences and cooperate on the ground.

Iraq's Turkmen minority, of Turkic ethnicity, is one of the country's largest and lives exclusively in the north. It is mostly Sunni Muslim but its Shiite component has been systematically targeted by jihadists over the past two months.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Kurdish forces attacked Islamic State fighters near the Kurdish regional capital of Arbil in northern Iraq on Wednesday in a change of tactics supported by the Iraqi central government to try to break the Islamists' momentum.

The attack 40 km (25 miles) southwest of Arbil came after the Sunni militants inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Kurds on Sunday with a rapid advance through three towns, prompting Iraq's prime minister to order his air force for the first time to back the Kurdish forces.

"We have changed our tactics from being defensive to being offensive. Now we are clashing with the Islamic State in Makhmur," said Jabbar Yawar, secretary-general of the ministry in charge of the Kurdish peshmerga fighters.

The location of the clashes puts the Islamic State fighters closer than they have ever been to the Kurdish semi-autonomous region since they swept through northern Iraq almost unopposed in June.

Shortly after that lightning advance, thousands of U.S.-trained Iraqi soldiers fled. Kurdish fighters, who boast of their battles against Saddam Hussein's forces, stepped in as did Iranian-trained Shi'ite militias.

But the Islamic State gunmen's defeat of the peshmerga, whose name means "those who confront death", has called into question their reputation as fearsome warriors.

The Islamic State poses the biggest threat to Iraq's security since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.

The group, which believes Shi'ites are infidels who deserve to be killed, has won the support of some Sunnis who don't agree with their ideology but share a fierce determination to topple Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.

Maliki, a Shi'ite, is seen as an authoritarian figure with a sectarian agenda whose alienation of Sunnis is destabilizing.

DARK DAYS

Iraq, an OPEC member, has returned to the dark days of 2006-2007 when a civil war peaked. Bombings, kidnappings and executions have again become part of daily life.

On Wednesday, 60 people were killed by an Iraqi government air strike on a Sharia court set up by Islamic State militants in a juvenile prison in Mosul, the office of Maliki's military spokesman said.

The Islamic State judge who ran the court, which routinely orders beheadings, was among those killed in the northern Iraqi city, the spokesman said.

Hospital officials and witnesses said earlier the strike killed 50 people in a prison set up by the Islamic State, making no mention of the court.

In Baghdad, car bombs exploded in crowded markets in several Shi'ite districts, killing 47 people, police said.

A roadside bomb killed three Shi'ites who volunteered to fight the Islamic State on a road between the town of Samarra and Mosul, a police official said.

In Taji, 20 km (12 miles) north of Baghdad, authorities found the bodies of six people who had been handcuffed and shot in the head and chest execution-style, medical sources said.

The Islamic State has declared a 'caliphate' in swathes of Iraq and Syria that it controls and threatens to march on Baghdad. Islamic State fighters and their Sunni militant and tribal allies also hold parts of western Iraq.

Maliki has ordered his air force to help the Kurds in their fight against the Islamic State, which seized an array of weapons including tanks and anti-aircraft guns from the Iraqi soldiers who fled in June.

Maliki was at odds with the Kurds over oil, budgets and land, but both sides put their differences aside, alarmed by the Islamic State's latest gains - a fifth oilfield and three more towns in the north. The group also reached Iraq's biggest dam.

Yawar confirmed the Kurds had re-established military cooperation with Baghdad.

"The peshmerga ministry sent a message to the Iraqi defense ministry requesting the convening of an urgent meeting on military cooperation. The joint committees have been reactivated," Yawar said by telephone.

MALIKI

Maliki, who has been serving in a caretaker capacity since an inconclusive election in April, has rejected calls by Kurds, Sunnis, some fellow Shi'ites and even regional power-broker Iran to step aside and make room for a less polarizing figure.

In his weekly televised address to the nation on Wednesday, he warned that any unconstitutional attempt to form a new government would open "the gates of hell" in Iraq.

Maliki rejected any outside interference in the process, an apparent reference to Tehran, which Iranian officials have said believes Maliki can no longer hold Iraq together.

Iran is now backing calls by Iraq's top cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani for Maliki to go and is looking for an alternative leader to combat the Sunni Islamist insurgency, the Iranian officials said.

The United States, which was a key backer of Maliki when he first came to office as an unknown in 2006, has urged Iraqi politicians to form a more inclusive government that can unify Iraqis and take on the Islamic State.

The Islamic State has put Iraq's survival as a unified state in jeopardy.

The capture of one of the towns, Sinjar, home to many of Iraq's Yazidi minority sect in a weekend offensive could lead to a humanitarian crisis.

Yazidis, ethnic Kurds who follow an ancient religion derived from Zoroastrianism, are at high risk of being executed because the Islamic State militants view them as devil worshippers.

Yawar said 50,000 Yazidis now hiding on a mountain risked starving to death if they were not rescued within 24 hours.

"Urgent international action is needed to save them. Many of them, mainly the elderly, children and pregnant women, have (already) died," he said.

"We can't stop the Islamic State from attacking the people on the mountain because there is one paved road leading up to the mountain and it can be used by them. They (Islamic State fighters) are trying to get to that road."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:59 AM

Kirkuk (Iraq) (AFP) - Jihadists seized Iraq's largest Christian town and surrounding areas Thursday, sending tens of thousands of panicked residents fleeing in what is being called a humanitarian disaster, officials and witnesses said.

The onslaught saw the Sunni extremist Islamic State extend its writ over northern Iraq and move within striking distance of autonomous Kurdistan, in one of the most dramatic developments of the two month-old conflict.

IS militants moved into Qaraqosh and other towns overnight after the withdrawal of Kurdish peshmerga troops, who are stretched thin across several fronts, residents said.

"Qaraqosh, Tal Kayf, Bartella and Karamlesh have been emptied of their original population and are now under the control of the militants," Joseph Thomas, the Chaldean Catholic archbishop of Kirkuk and Sulaimaniyah, told AFP.

Entirely Christian Qaraqosh lies between Mosul, the jihadists' main hub in Iraq, and Arbil, the Kurdish region's capital. It usually has a population of around 50,000.

Tal Kayf, the home of a significant Christian community as well as members of the Shabak Shiite minority, also emptied overnight.

"Tal Kayf is now in the hands of the Islamic State. They faced no resistance and rolled in just after midnight," said Boutros Sargon, a resident who fled and was reached by phone in Arbil.

"I heard some gunshots last night and, when I looked outside, I saw a military convoy from the Islamic State... shouting 'Allahu Akbar' (God is greatest)."

Pope Francis urged the international community to protect Iraq's Christians, who have emigrated en masse over the past decade as a result of successive waves of violence.

Chaldean Patriarch Louis Sako, who heads Iraq's largest Christian denomination, said the overnight offensive had displaced 100,000 Christians.

"This is a humanitarian disaster. The churches are occupied, their crosses were taken down," he told AFP, adding that 1,500 manuscripts had been burnt.

AFP could not immediately verify the status of those towns, which witnesses said have been completely emptied of their residents.

The latest numbers dwarf the exodus sparked last month by an IS ultimatum to Mosul's Christians to convert to Islam, pay jizya (protection money) or leave on pain of death.

- Yazidis reach Turkey -

A peshmerga spokesman said Kurdish forces were battling the Islamic State in Qaraqosh and Al-Qosh further north, but no witnesses could corroborate that.

The spokesman also said the peshmerga were fighting in Gwer, a Kurdish community south of Qaraqosh.

The IS advance means jihadists are now within striking distance, in some areas barely 20 kilometres (12 miles), of the official border of the Kurdish region and 40 kilometres from Arbil.

The group launched a devastating offensive on June 9, seizing the country's second city Mosul the next day and sweeping across much of the Sunni heartland.

Peshmerga forces apparently redeployed to Arbil some of the forces they had assigned to the disputed land they grabbed from the government during the army's initial debacle.

They also beefed up security in Kirkuk, the most significant conquest they made during the June chaos, but the city was rocked by a car bomb Thursday.

The blast ripped through a Shiite mosque where displaced people had sought refuge, killing at least eight and wounding 47, police and medical sources said.

The experienced peshmerga were thought to be a sufficient bulwark against massive further advances by the jihadists, but IS fighters have been moving stealthily across the northern Nineveh province and making surprise gains.

At the weekend, IS units took over most of the Mosul hinterland which the peshmerga had occupied after government forces retreated in June.

Among its conquests was the Sinjar area, from which tens of thousands of civilians fled, including many families from the Yazidi minority who are still hiding in barren nearby mountains.

The Yazidis, and other local residents, have been stranded in the mountains since Saturday with little food and water.

View galleryIraqi displaced families, who fled violence in the …
Iraqi displaced families, who fled violence in the northern city of Tal Afar, gather at Khazer refug …
The leaders of the small minority, who practise a 4,000-year-old faith rooted in Zoroastrianism, have warned that their entire community risks being massacred or starved into extinction.

Turkish officials said hundreds of Yazidis had crossed into Turkey but did not specify how they got there.

Rights activist Ali al-Bayati told AFP around 1,500 people had reached Fishkhabur, near the spot where the borders of Iraq, Syria and Turkey meet.

IS, which proclaimed a "caliphate" straddling Syria and Iraq in late June, boasted of its latest victories.

"We are pleased to announce to the Islamic nation a new liberation in Nineveh province, teaching the secular Kurds a lesson," a statement said.

It denied reports that an unprecedented alliance of Kurdish fighters from Iraq, Syria and Turkey was clawing back lost territory around Sinjar and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:46 AM

"Israel when it comes to matters that impinge upon its sovereignty...."
That ends the political party broadcast on behalf of the Israeli Fascist regime.
Impinged on it's perceived sovereignty using every weapon in its considerable arsenal.
It has ruthlessly trampled on the sovereignty of others, butchering anybody stands in the way of their ambitions.
In six decades it has moved from representing the Jewish as the most persecuted on the planet to degrading them by claiming to be acting on their behalf.
The Israeli regime is succeeding where the Nazis failed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:40 AM

I am now puzzled. You seem to say that the Iraqi forces and Shia militias can defeat ISIS and don't need outside help - yet you are bewailing the lack of outside help.

What do you want? Western forces to attack ISIS, or western forces to stay away?



In more detail - you admit that the Iraqis used air power against the Kurds, and above asserted that the Kurd were saved by a no-fly zone. But ISIS has (pretty much) no air capability. It might have captured some aircraft but it has very few if any pilots. So Western air power cannot save from ISIS (unless they attack ISIS directly).


I said "decimate or worse". Extermination is worse. So I was right in my formulation.   I nowhere said or implied that that was all right. My point was as above - that air power was an irrelevance.

You are wrong that there is no outcry. The Guardian is covering it.



In short you are simply saying "It's all right for Israel to be nasty because others are worse".    That's (a) pointless (b) silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

" Iraq was decimating the Kurds through use of air power. The operation you describe sterilised that air power."

The Kurds were being attacked by both the Iraqi Air Force and by the Iraqi Army.

"ISIS is not decimating (or worse) the Yazidi through air power but through land power."

Ah so that's alright is it? They are not decimating those they have trapped they are intent on slaughtering every last one of them. Yet as others have said not one yelp of objection can be heard above the roar of "Save Gaza, save Gaza".

"So how do you think the Iraqi forces can resist that land power? The last rumble between Isis and them ended, did it not, with the Iraqi's abandoning their weapons and running away?"

The Iraqi Army and the Shia Militias will do it, might take time but they will do it. The last time? Well they were for the most part Police and Border Police Units with some Army units - I note the ISIS "drive" on Baghdad has halted? Changed their minds have they? Or has something else changed it for them?   

"Israel could be stopped by cutting off arms sales to it and cutting off the massive US subsidy."

Possibly could but we both know that that is not going to happen don't we?

"Isis? Last I heard the assets they seized made them richer than the rest of Iraq. OK, maybe I exaggerate, but how far off is it?   They are apparently not susceptible to financial pressure, only military."

And what good are those assets? Can they produce oil? Can they transport it to any loading terminal? Can they sell it? Rhetorical question Richard the answer to all is a big NO, so those assets are of no use to them whatsoever.

"Similarly apparently Boko Haram outguns the Nigerian army (and like the Viet Cong hides in dense forest)."

Early days yet for that bunch, but their time is coming, their métier is destruction - they have no future.

"Israel may (although resistant) be susceptible to western outcries. ISIS or Boko Haram - you must be joking!"

Israel when it comes to matters that impinge upon its sovereignty and upon its security is pretty much inured to the outcries of anyone else. They will remorselessly do whatever needs to be done - They showed that to be the case in 1967 in the face of what seemed invincible odds and they are perfectly capable of doing so again. ISIS or Boko Haram will collapse from within if left long enough to stew, they are essentially bandits and will ultimately be dealt with as such, neither would withstand any determined or prolonged assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM

"The only actual quote you ever do is that three year old post which you knowingly misinterpret."
No misinterpretation ever claimed - just blamed on somebody else then confirmed as your own
But will happily add "misinterpretation" to your list of excuses if you wish.
As for "lies" -name them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:52 AM

You mistake the point Terribilis - whether knowingly or not I can only suspect. You posted some details of what I suspect you intended to illustrate a successful humanitarian military operation. But Iraq was decimating the Kurds through use of air power. The operation you describe sterilised that air power.

ISIS is not decimating (or worse) the Yazidi through air power but through land power.

So how do you think the Iraqi forces can resist that land power? The last rumble between Isis and them ended, did it not, with the Iraqi's abandoning their weapons and running away?   

Israel could be stopped by cutting off arms sales to it and cutting off the massive US subsidy.

Isis? Last I heard the assets they seized made them richer than the rest of Iraq. OK, maybe I exaggerate, but how far off is it?   They are apparently not susceptible to financial pressure, only military.


Similarly apparently Boko Haram outguns the Nigerian army (and like the Viet Cong hides in dense forest).



Oh, and finally - Israel may (although resistant) be susceptible to western outcries. ISIS or Boko Haram - you must be joking!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:34 AM

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say

No I do not.
You make it up.
The only actual quote you ever do is that three year old post which you knowingly misinterpret.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:23 AM

"In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, 'Save Gaza, save Gaza.'"

The poignant lament of an Iraqi named Karim, quoted in this short newyorker.com story, captures the helpless frustration of many minorities facing existential danger in areas controlled by ISIL, the terrorist group, while much of the world has been transfixed by the war between Israel and Hamas. While both Israelis and Palestinians have carelessly bandied about the word "genocide," it is a real threat for the communities in ISIL's crosshairs.

Genocide watch: the Iraqi communities most endangered by the rise of ISIL