BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

I agree with that also.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

"If certain folks were to limit themselves to more recent times rather than several milennia ago they'd be forced to face some very unpleasant (to them) truths, SRS"

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM

Those are Reland's IMPRESSIONS as a tourist, PeeDee - a late 17th Century "how I spent my vacation". He didn't take a census, nor was he a resident. Interesting, but hardly conclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

So the airstrikes by the criminal Israeli forces that have killed a couple of hundred innocent men women and children in the last week are ok then because a lying scrap of parchment from a couple of thousand years ago justifies murder.

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

If certain folks were to limit themselves to more recent times rather than several milennia ago they'd be forced to face some very unpleasant (to them) truths, SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

It's a damned shame so much of the world knows how to read and write. To draw maps. If they hadn't figured out how to record their history and the battles they've fought (remembering that history is usually written by the winners, but lots of everyday folks keep diaries about events) they would have forgotten a lot of the small details and might not be parsing the dispute so finely today.

Some of you are harking toward the Ur status of things - back how it was in The Very Beginning. Whenever that was. It isn't going to happen. Today's Americans aren't going to move off of the continent if they find that they have no blood quantum of American Indian. Protestant former Scots aren't going to move back to Scotland from Northern Ireland. White South Africans who are still in South Africa are probably going to stay there. India Indians who live in various nations around the world are going to stay where they settled. Etc., etc.

Events in recent history - lets make that the last couple of hundred years - are plenty to keep people busy. It lets the Armenians fight with the Turks about how much land they are really entitled to, it lets the Kurds continue to try to carve out their historic homeland from Turkey as well as northern Iraq. It lets Japan fight with Russia about some inhospitable islands off the coast of Siberia and yet a logical extension of the Japanese archipelago. It lets American Indians continue to fight battles to prove they were tribes and receive compensation for lost assets (just because they protested the Dawes rolls in 1887 doesn't mean they weren't Indians). It lets ethnic regions artificially joined by colonizers fight to disassociate. The fact that European Jews left Europe under the worst of possible conditions and moved into the thousands-of-years-ago-historic-homeland of Jews in Jerusalem means they displaced the people who had been living there for a very long time since they left (if they were ever there to begin with). There are bound to be some misunderstandings.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM

"1695-6
The Dutch scholar and cartographer, Adriaan Reland (Hadriani Relandi) , wrote reports about visits to the Land of Israel. He was fluent in Hebrew and Arabic. He documented visits to many locations. He writes: The names of settlements were mostly Hebrew, some Greek, and some Latin-Roman. No settlement had an original Muslim-Arab name with a historical root in its location. Most of the land was empty, desolate, and the inhabitants few in number and mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, Acco, Tzfat, Jaffa, Tiberius and Gaza. Most of the inhabitants were Jews and the rest Christians. There were few Muslims, mostly nomad Bedouins. The Arabs were predominantly Christians with a tiny minority of Muslims. In Jerusalem there were approximately 5000 people, mostly Jews and some Christians. In Nazareth there were approximately 700 people - all Christians. In Gaza there were approximately 550 people - half of them Jews and half Christians. Um-El-Phachem was a village of 10 families - all Christians. The only exception was Nablus with 120 Muslims from the Natsha family and approximately 70 Shomronites."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:01 AM

Jim,

YOU have show you are a bigot and anti-Semite according to the EU.

Your last few posts prove you are a liar.


All of this is proven- Now YOU prove otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

2"These have been YOUR claims, not mine"
Yes they are - throughout all your arguments to use your own arguments - prove otherwise!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:49 AM

"my claims of prior occupation are better than your claims of prior occupation"

I don't think anyone has made that claim Greg but some have claimed that the land belongs to the Arabs and that the Jews were stealing it from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

GregF,

So you will allow "claims of prior occupation" as long as they are not by Jews?

The post you are complaining about are in reply to the claims that the Palestinians have a MORE valid claim to the land by prior occupation, which YOU state is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:41 AM

Jim,

:"you are the one who claim them to be terrorist implicated in the mass murder of refugees, the use of chemical weapons and the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins -"

These have been YOUR claims, not mine- I have asked for your factual evidence and you have failed to present any.


But you have established that you would rather lie than have a reasonable discussion based on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

John, I was simply commenting upon the sophomoric claims of Boo, BB & Co. RE: "my claims of prior occupation are better than your claims of prior occupation" & therein lies your 'absurdum'.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

Greg F.
Maybe if you can find, today, any folks who as a polity, a folk with an historic memory, controlled what is now Israel then maybe your 'ergo' would have meaning. The fact is those folks don't exist. They assimilated into the prevailing culture, or otherwise disappeared from history. The Jew/Israelites/Judeans, conversely, have such a history: Exile,return; exile/return; exile/return; exile/return while during the exile periods there was always Jewish presence in the homeland.
As it stands your 'ergo' is 'absurdum'.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

"Ergo, I guess the folks occupying the area prior to 3000 years ago have prior claom over "The Jews" & the land should be teturned to them, then."

Let the Canaanites put in a claim then.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

So, GregF,

Your post indicates that the Palestinians have NO right to any land whatsoever, since they were AFTER the Jews that you claim have no right to the land.

Waiting for you to tell the Palestinians to go away…..

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:57 AM

Israel have not proved themselves good neighbours from day one - their hand-granading occupied homes being proof positive of this.


Did all Israelis do that?
Of course not, and they were also victims of atrocities.

Israel's neighbours proved themselves bad on day one by invading with five armies to sweep Israel away!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM

Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia...

Well, BB, Per Boo: Being displaced doesn't remove rights as indigenous people NO MATTER HOW LONG THEY ARE DISPLACED FOR[emphasis his]. ... Jews have been there for three thousand years...

Ergo, I guess the folks occupying the area prior to 3000 years ago have prior claom over "The Jews" & the land should be teturned to them, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

"Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia."
In practical terms , the Palestinians have had no rights to occupy the land thy have occupied for millenia, other than that which is of no use to Israel - not being "told they have no right" - a practical fact.
Israel have not proved themselves good neighbours from day one - their hand-granading occupied homes being proof positive of this.
You say I don't consider Jews human - you are the one who claim them to be terrorist implicated in the mass murder of refugees, the use of chemical weapons and the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins - as far as the rest of us are concerned, it is the Israelis who are the culprits.
Please go on blaming 'The Jews' as long as you wish - it underlines the Antisemitism of you and your little gang.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM

I was heartened to see Prof Stephen Hawking has refused to attend a scientific conference in Israel out of respect for oppressed Palestinian scientists.

It takes respectable people to wipe the veneer of respectability from repugnant oppressive governments who use terror of their own people as justification for carrying on what causes the terror in the first place.

I believe Germany called the French resistance terrorists...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

Jim,

Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia.

But then, we know that YOU do not consider Jews to be human, or to have the rights you are demanding for Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM

I fear Ian may have the drink taken?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

Oops, Epictetus

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

Last quote, Epitetus

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

""Ask yourself:  Does this appearance (of events) concern the things that are within my own control or those that are not?  If it concerns anything outside your control, train yourself not to worry about it.""

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM

John, that's the title of the documentary I linked to. I fear Mr.Musket is losing it as has been evident for some time now. Poor chap, I feel for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

I love it when a plan comes together.

Really, ads hominem ill become anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

"versus"
I have just consulted five (5) dictionaries, and as I expected each notes the use versus as a comparison or contrast. It seems bobad's use was quite correct.

Do you feel a bit like what you called him, now? Of course you don't, Musket; you'd rather call him names.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM

Keep trying Greg - you may eventually figure it out:

Islam vs. Islamists

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

Gee, I don't think so, Boo - since I got that impression of The Muslim Menace from you, Keith & BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

"Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep."

So I guess you were wrong in thinking that as you are in so many other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep."
Sarcasm becomes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

The story of the Caliphate in Syria-Iraq has been lost in all the rehash of Palestine (several threads), but a bit of news today.
There are divisions in the Sunni groups from which ISIS is soliciting support.
Taliban in both Pakistan and Afghanistan have refused to comment on the caliphate, support is not favored by all fractions.

Naqshbandi leader Al-Douri (head of a group of Sunni loyalists to Saddam Hussain's Baath Party)) has released an audiotape praising ISIS.

Iraqi UN envoy Miadenov says Iraq needs a "firm hand" (the Parliament dissolved in disarray and the country has no overall governance) but it is not known who can lead strongly). The Sunni political group is trying to elect a parliamentary speaker in hopes of a return to power.

The Kurds announced that they now control two more large oilfields, and are fighting ISIS at their "border."

Above in part from Assyrian International News Agency.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM

"complex history of that part of the world"
Complex, disputed - and totally immaterial.
Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Arabs have occupied the area they are no being told they have no claim to for millenia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but in going through some of the earlier posts, this occurred to me:

I've heard these three friends several times on KUOW-FM, my local NPR affiliate. Very interesting—and friendly—discussions.

http://interfaithamigos.com/About_Us.html.

A chance to hear them in action HERE.

Rather than taking militant religious types of various flavors out and shooting the lot, how about lining them up and giving them all a hearty dope-slap?

Nah. Probably wouldn't do it. Okay, back to reading more of this thread. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:06 PM

Thanks John, I appreciate your effort at elucidating the complex history of that part of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate what means Palestine?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:25 PM

"The dispute surrounding the name Palestine has been part of Israel's denying the Palestinian's right continue to occupy the area [Wrong]they have done for millenia - it is immaterial one way or the other."
"It's official use to identifya part of the Arab lands dates back at least to the 7th century [Further back]- in anybody's book, thirteen centuries is long enough to give the right of a claim to live in the area, except the Israelis, it would appear.[Opinion not factual]" [-] = mine.
Jim Carroll
>
>
Palestine is the term given to the whole area by the Romans after quelling two Jewish attempts to remove Roman control of Judea (75CE and 135CE). They chose that name, as a form of irony, to de-Judaiize the area politically, in naming it for the main Israelite/Judean enemy, the Philistines--who had, incidentally disappeared as a polity centuries before.

The Philistines had never controlled the area as a whole. At their peak their control was mainly five cities in the southwest of what is now Israel, abutting Sinai Peninsula, one of which was Gaza. The Philistines were not Arab, nor were they Semites. They came from Mediterranean islands, such as Cypress and Sardinia.

After 135, some Jewish presence throughout Palestine. In the early 7th century CE Palestine was part of the Persian Sassinid empire. Jews were allowed local autonomy for about ten years, until the Arab Muslim conquest of Palestine. And there still continued to be a Jewish population there, no matter who controlled the area. And such there was forever into the 20th century.

Following WWI, the victors, the League of Nations, divided up the Middle East in to what eventually became Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan (split off from the original Palestine Mandate). The remainder of the Palestine Mandate remained in limbo from 1923 on owing to the fecklessness of the British Government. From 1923 Arabs (Muslim and Christian), and Jews (native born or immigrants) considered themselves Palestinean (or at least acknowledging they lived in Mandated Palestine). Area Jews ceased considering themselves Palestinian with the declaration of the State of Israel.
>
>
Jim, Greg F. or whomever: do not ask for sources; I am not writing a term paper, nor am I quoting a source directly. You guys do not usually provide sources either for you posts. You can get sources,as I did, simply by googling or yahooing, or searching your favorite search engine. You can get documents and books from libraries as I have. You can get sources on both sides, as I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

The dispute surrounding the name Palestine has been part of Israel's denying the Palestinian's right continue to occupy the area they have done for millenia - it is immaterial one way or the other.
It's official use to identifya part of the Arab lands dates back at least to the 7th century - in anybody's book, thirteen centuries is long enough to give the right of a claim to live in the area, except the Israelis, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

"The name Palestine is given to the region spreading from eastern Mediterranean coast to the Jordan Valley to the area covering Galilee Lake in the north and southern Negev Desert. The origin of this word lies in "Plesheth". This is a name appearing frequently in the Bible and have started being known as "Philistine" in English. The world root of "Plesheth" lies in the word "palah" was is a term used generally in the sense of migratory, referring to the Palestinian's conquest of the coast of Mediterranean. These people were mostly originates of Asia Minor and Greece and gradually became a part of the Arab world".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

Jee, PeeDee, and here I thought the name "Palestine" dated back at least to before the Crusades...... come to think of it, its mentioned in Genesis, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

The name Palestine was adopted by the Moslem residents of the Holy Land and used for their advantage. "Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel... " (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

The confirmation comes hours after Ynetnews reported that Egypt and another Arab nation, most probably Qatar, were working on an initial draft of a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, which was presented to both sides Saturday.

Hamas had refused to discuss the terms of the cease-fire, while Israel has expressed its willingness to meet to negotiate the details of the deal.

Egypt confirms push to end Israel-Hamas fighting

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM

"unanswerable objections "
Can I make something clear Mike - it really shouldn't be necessary.
My reference to mending fences has been throughout, the problems raised by Muslim fighters returning to Britain - it is why I have emphasised the docile and to some degree co-operative position of British Muslims.
The Middle East is a different matter, and is a case of seeking an international solution.
I feel that the U.S. has to drop its use of the veto on behalf of Israel, (half-way there at present anyway) and a world-wide boycott of Israel should be called for to force her to take peace talks seriously.
Whatever the feelings of the Palestinian leadership and Hamas towards Israel, they are in no position to present a serious military threat.
It can be validly claimed that the rocket attacks are a direct response to expansionism, the blockage and the history of atrocities carried out against the Palestinian people.
Israel is a sophisticated, well armed (to the point of nuclear capability) and wealthy State - Palestine is an extremely impoverished Third World one - David and Goliath was a Biblical fairy tale, nothing more.
Without world intervention, led by the U.N., both of us will live to see an encore of the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM

Like with Tango, It normally takes two to cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:07 AM

Then too, Israel at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire.

Got a poem for that, ~M~?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire" ~~~~~

Of all the horrid, hideous notes of woe,
Sadder than owl-songs or the midnight blast;
    Is that portentous phrase,

          "I told you so."

    Byron - Don Juan (canto XIV, st. 50)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Yes, Jim. I am really not trying to be quarrelsome, or merely score points, this time. But you honestly have not answered [what I consider to be] my unanswerable objections to your proposed solution; that it would be, literally, a non-starter, because the main necessary participants would not come to the negotiating table under any consideration whatever: as you will see if you will just read that bobad post on the other "Small Hopes" thread that I have already ref'd you to; and which can't be as difficult for you to find as you claimed, as it is immediately adjacent to one of yours. In fact, I hope he won't mind, but I copy it here for you to consider; in, I repeat, a spirit of opposition to your views, but I hope not aggressively:

"I spent hours yesterday morning and afternoon trying to convince my main Hamas contact to speak to his leaders to call for an immediately unconditional 24 hour ceasefire in order to prevent the escalation. My message made it all the way up to Khaled Mashal. I wanted to try to prevent the inevitable death of innocent people and the destruction that this war would cause.
The Hamas leadership decided to ignore the possibility of the ceasefire and challenged Israel to "bring it on". These irresponsible leaders are criminals to their own people. I can honestly say that Netanyahu did not want to escalate this war. It is so unfortunate that these Hamas leaders, some sitting in hotel abroad and others safely hiding underground in Gaza put the innocent people of Gaza in the direct line of fire. This is criminal.
Force alone will never be a proper response to the problems of human suffering. Israel had to respond with force, I am sorry to say, but Israel must also present a plan for addressing the real and urgent human needs of the 1.7 million people in Gaza, or else this ongoing war never end." ... Gershon Baskin

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"Like -- what are YOU going to DO?"
As you say - it's somebody elses job to do things - I have mede my suggestions - you have yet to do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

Richard Bridge—Thank you for your response. I'm sorry to have to use your full post to frame my answers to you in brackets [-], but I know not HTML to colorize or italicize what I wanted to say...and I didn't want to use all CAPS, lest you think I'm yelling at you. It is difficult to present thousands of years of history into a few paragraphs, so I'm happy to clarify my post for you. Richard, I make you the same offer I made Mrrzy, PM me and I will send you a brief reading list, but everything I've written can be easily searched on the web.

                                                                   ======================
That is interesting John, but surely the more important question is who occupied the lands before the Ottoman Empire. It seems to me that the history is very relevant. You for the first time suggest that the population of the Levant (a useful naming suggestion) [maybe on this thread, but over the years I have used 'Levant' on occasion on the 'Cat] was then not Arabian but "Philistine" - that is to say from other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. [The Philistines did not control the Levant, only a small portion in the southwest around Gaza-five cities] At least I think that that is your thesis. I should like to see more support for that, and perhaps it turns at least in part on who is "an Arab".

However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") [This is not my equation, it is the accepted etymology of the word.] then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant. [The irony of the Roman renaming the area for the Jews most feared enemy, is that they had disappeared as an entity centuries before.]

I progress from there to say that the difference between Israel and the other states to which BB refers is that Israel was given to invaders who had not been there for thousands of years [this is incorrect. Jews, always were a portion of the population of the Levant, although not in control of any of it after the failure of the Bar Khochba revolt in the 2nd century CE] whereas although the rulership of other states may have been from outsiders the people there were those to whom reversion (under government) occurred. [I'm sorry, I don't understand what your conclusion, here, is.]

I do note however that BB offers some factual support for the view that the proposers of what has become Israel were terrorists. [It is true that the Romans considered Judeans to be what we call terrorists, the historic term is the Zealots. In modern times the British considered some Jews--both Palestinian born and immigrants—who were denied their promised portion of Palestine for a homeland after the Palestinians had received theirs].

Subject: RE: BS: Correction to my post yesterday
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

"Perhaps because there was no Palestinian leadership allowed in the country consisting of Palestinian population, and because of anti-Jewish sentiment and pogroms in Palestine from the 1920s to the 1940s, the Palestinians recognize Jordan as the Palestinian homeland."

The last clause should have read, "...the Palestinians DO NOT recognize Jordan as a Palestinian homeland."