BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

Thank you Michael, you are a man of reason. A gentleman in the true sense of the word.

Ian and Jim, along with their acolytes know exactly what they are doing, their attacks are simply a tactic. They are afraid of the truth, afraid of their ideology, as they have nothing to put in its place. They have invested their lives in a handful of dross and they simply cannot bear to admit it.

It worries me that so many people remain silent when these tactics are used....I think most of the mods understand what is going on, but most of the membership seem to believe that I deserve to be punished for daring to rock the good ship Mudcat.

I have never condemned ALL Muslims, but I have condemned Islamists, who are regarded by most people as dangerous psychopaths.
Jim and Ian know that very well, but find it more useful to attack me personally than address the issue.
I am certainly not a "hater" of homosexuals, but am concerned about legislating in favour of a lifestyle which is so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals.
The remark about a "knife to the throat" was to elucidate that "moderates" can be easily subverted by fundamentalist radicals when law and order has broken down in society.

Our misplaced interventions in Iraq and Libya have left a bitter harvest to be reaped.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

ISIS caught people by surprise. There will be pushback. Just because they say they want to do something doesn't mean they will be able to.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:32 AM

Then we must agree to differ on Ake's homophobia here.
I have never accepted his statistics as reliable, but to use them as a form of persecution, even if they were accurate, is unacceptable.
His basic stance has always been that homosexuality ids unnatural, optional and 'curable' - which is the basis of all homophobia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

But, then, I disagree re homophobia, as you may recall from a post I put on another thread late last year & think it worth reposting here ~~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:40 AM

I really feel it time someone objected to all this abuse of Akenaton. He seems to me simply to be trying to draw attention to a statistical conclusion which he finds of concern. He repeatedly quotes the actual statistics, which seem to be from respectable sources, but which nobody SFAICS has actually disputed. Instead, he has been cast in the role of The Messenger To Be Shot.
I do not like the implication of his statistics either; but they do give pause for thought. I do not think the 'whataboutery' to which they have been subjected in any way argumentatively convincing. I particularly think Musket's messenger-shooting, in the form of constantly rendering the penultimate syllable of his nickname as 'hate', to be, not only unwitty in the extreme, but an exceptionally cheap shot: think about it a bit more deeply, Ian -- please.
Instead of constantly abusing the man, why don't some of you try to find a few genuine counter-arguments. You are all reminding me of the ones who oh-so-predictably scream 'racism' any time the values of any ethnicity are questioned or impugned. So why not look for a few convincing arguments to replace these constant squeals of 'gayist', which add nothing to the concerning question as to whether SMS does or does not appear to show a statistical unbalance in regard to STDs?
I repeat ~~ I hate the idea that this might be the case; but accusing the person who adduces evidence ['evidence', I repeat -- not mere assertion] of being purely hate-motivated seems to me but an unworthy, vain, irrational, and counterproductive reaction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

No Michael. You do not appease bastards. You shout them down and confront them.

You can't educate pork so why bother trying.

There is no such thigh as a moderate Muslim. There is no such thing as a moderate Christian. There is no such thing as a moderate Jew.

There are people who have religious belief and belonging. That does not make them a criminal using religion as an excuse for dominating others.

There are people who use their religion as an excuse for atrocity. But to say that every Muslim is a potential terrorist is no different than saying every Scottish man is a potential patient in Carstairs.

He is getting worse. He needs stamping on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

Sorry Mike - this is basic stuff
Ake has been at this far too long to be open to reason - tried it years ago with his homophobia.
Blanket condemnation of the entire Muslim population as being a threat, either actual or potential, leaves you with no foothold n which to begin to argue.
I wouldn't bother to try to get Nick Griffin to see the error of his ways - why shoud I bother with a serial bigot?
I appreciate your intentions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

I genuinely don't think you help, Jim, by ranting immoderately in return. How about some attempts at rational reply rather than these knee-jerk denunciations, of any opinion differing from your own world-view, as malevolently motivated? We all know you are a man of strong feelings and high principles; but these infuriated outbursts of yours, full of boo-words like "ranting racist garbage" &c, really do your cause & pov no benefit. No-one has advocated "send 'em all back" &c. We are back to your accusing me that time of saying they are here to "steal our jobs", when you had to admit subsequently that I had in fact made no mention of jobs whatsoever, and you were just being "logically rhetorical" or some such evasive locution. Try simmering down a bit ~~ it will be better for your blood-pressure, as well as for your argumentative position.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones"
So there we have it - we can't trust any of them so we should send them all back to where they came from, and those we can't....?
And maybe we should pack off all those homos at the same time before they give us all AIDS
Ranting racist garbage befitting the most squalid of the gutter-extremist sites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:17 AM

Why ISIS will fail - but not before murdering millions:

Al-Qaida's Seven Rules for the Effective Terrorist

ISIS is breaking all of them. It will live to regret it.

By William Saletan

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/06/osama_bin_laden_s_seven_rules_for_terrorists_isis_will_regret_not_following.single.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

Q..." They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims."

Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats?
We are not talking NYC here, more like the Wild West?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:01 AM

Bruce is correct, these people are a "real and present danger" to the world....and Israel is right in the front line.
Sorry SRS, I share your views on the Palestinian predicament, but addressing this issue is more important for the safety of all.

It is, as in many other issues, a matter of priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:00 AM

Our guest Bruce is excitable.

The map published by ABC News has been shown to be a fake. So far, ISIS/ISIL has not produced any map showing their intent. They have been consolidating their hold on a swatch of Syria and Iraq. They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims.

In case my mention that the mayor of Calgary may be considered a moderate Islamist was unclear, our hard-working mayor, Naheed Nenshi, is a Muslim, who found almost no opposition in his run for re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:33 AM

You're talking philosophy, ma'am. I'm talking about a pending genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:16 PM

Until something is done about Israel - i.e., giving the Palestinians a state and getting Israel out of the West Bank, they are always going to have a target drawn on them. The U.S. has let them get away with a lot of nonsense for too long. Every time there is progress in peace talks - more settlements are announced. They do it EVERY TIME. Israel isn't an innocent victim in a lot of its own troubles.

I haven't followed this thread, I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce. So I'm just responding to your angry outburst - I find myself much less ardent a fan of Israel as they continue to goad their neighbors. Yes they have been victims, in a lot of ways for centuries. But for today and in the here an now, they aren't behaving themselves well. The romance of the Jewish homeland is gone, it is now a long-running tragedy for many people.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM

I wish to know why the people who post here have not questioned ISIS's intent. Included in their territorial map is the entire country of Israel. I hereby accuse you of being Jew haters and of less worth than Nazis. You are despicable, the fucking lot of you. Seven million people have less worth to you than your ideal? In the parlance, may your balls rot.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for the link, Ed T.

Our mayor here in Calgary is a moderate Islamist. A fine man.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

The article below nites the difference between radical and moderate islamists. Putting everyone in one camp is illogical, and simplistic, though it does support some folks distorted thinking towards other groups and people they dont like.

The Myth of Excluding Moderate Islamists in the Arab World 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM

Well said Keith!   But we must remember that Ian and his like don't care a fig about butchered children or real abuses of rights to life.
His world revolves around a much more important issue....the marriage rights of homosexuals!!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

""Islamists would kill him (Ghandi) for that"

Possibly so-but, I suspect it would not have deterred him from reaching out and trying to build bridges?

However, the radicals need recruits. I suspect Ghandis approach would make it a a lot harder to get them and meld them into radicals. I suspect there are many reasons, historic and current, to build a case against those interested in controlling the Arab region, its people and its resources. This area was likely an incubation zone for radicalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

"Hamas seems to be losing control of the dozens of terror cells in the Gaza Strip.

    Hamas prevented local journalists from covering the ISIS rally in the Gaza Strip last month as part of its effort to deny the existence of ISIS in the Gaza Strip. But Hamas seems to be trying to cover the sun with one finger.

    The Gaza Strip is no longer only a threat to Israel, but also to Egypt. The only way to confront this threat is through security cooperation between Israel and Egypt."

ISIS Already in Gaza Strip

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

For those still unclear on the distinction: Islam vs. Islamist

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

"I am off now for a couple of weeks."
Missing you already
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the second (more measured and understanding) post,KAof H. Yes, it was my error in my last post- I meant, Islamic, not Islamist.

However, following up on that, I could not find a consistant definition of Islamist that defines it well (some online dictionaries have no definition).

Some of the definitions could well describe orthodox religious fanatics of any religion? Some definitions include only radicals, and others seem to include those dedicated non-violent muslims, mostly promoting a total islamic life, including governing (possibly much like many orthodox religious folks).

As Q notes, adding the word radical or militant Islamists would possibly give a clearer, more accurate meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

I am off now for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people.

More made up bollocks

hence I and many others scorn the term.

Many others?
Even more bollocks, or can you find one in the whole world?
No.

The word is in common usage, and well understood as being quite distinct from Islam and Muslim.
It is ignorant, dangerous and offensive to equate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?"
Are there any specific groups dedicated to the destruction of democracy?
Your claim that religion played any part in any of this has long been shot down - politics and power is what is happening.
Religion plays the same role it always did - validating warfare by giving it a cause - pretty much the same as 'God, King' and country' was used to inspire millions of young man to march to their deaths in WW1 or the way that the Empire was set up to civilise and Christianise the savage world - nothing to do with natural resources and cheap labour, of course!! .
Thes countries aren't democracies - they are by and large feudal monarchies.
To suggest that those fighting in Syria are enemies of democracy and freedom is is nutty as it gets - Syria has neither.
Iraq is a feudalist state torn to pieces by western intervention - there was a possibility that The Arab Spring might improve that situation was blown by cynical non-intervention - which would not have happened if oil had been an issue.
Exactly which democracy that Islamism is dedicated to overthrow are you referring to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

"Islamist was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people."

Who coined the term and definition? Source?

The term started out innocently enough in articles 1993-2003, mostly denoting political Islam.

Then came the series of articles and diatribes in the press, notably one in Newsweek by a Hayri Abaza, Is it Islamic or Islamist ? (10-22-10)
The use of Islamist for the radical, extremists was endorsed, but Abaza also pointed out that the public would be confused, not grasping (his and others) distinction between Islamic and Islamist.

Perhaps radical should be added as a modifier; radical Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for shouting down the suggestion that Muslims are Islamists Keith. I did notice.

In objective answer to your question, I would point out two things, and the second flows from the first;

Islamism is not a set doctrine. There are many people taking up arms in many different countries and calling themselves or being labelled islamist. Some complain about the others in a macabre "Peoples' Popular Front of Judea" stance. The aims are similar, the structure to follow are very different...

It is therefore a matter of numbers, in which there are Christian equivalents, and we don't need to look at Crusades or Inquisition to find it. When a Bishop declares he answers to a higher authority when commenting on equality law. When American Baptist organisations fund attempts to make being gay a capital offence in Uganda, when they and similar movements bomb abortion clinics and murder healthcare professionals working in them.

They just don't have the numbers, that's all. They claim they are real Christians and that you aren't. An Islamic version of Bobad would possibly quote them as representing all Christians judging by his track record.

In any event, the term Islamism, being two letters away from Islamic and confusingly meaning the same in pure word structure terms, was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people. hence I and many others scorn the term. No problem with another word, call them apricots if you like. But if scum can confuse paedophile and paediatrician, it doesn't take much for them to invoke the word Muslim when thinking terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Definitions are difficult, when Muslims are members of Islam.

Islamist is "a set of ideologies holding that "Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life."
---
"Islamists generally oppose the use of the term, claiming their political beliefs and goals are simply an expression of Islamic religious belief. Similarly, some experts favor the term activist Islam or political Islam and some have equated the term militant Islam with Islamism.."

From Islamism, an article in Wikipedia.

Shouting about your particular usage is childish.

Also childish are the stupid he said/didn't say arguments, gone over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

Ed, sorry.
Misconception not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy"
As are many of the groups names above
The U.S. hasn't been above sending in the Marines to overthrow democratically elected governments and even Mrs T described the dictator who murdered the democratically elected Allende as a fine example of democracy.
The U.S. has supplied arms, equipment and intelligence to overthrow democratically elected governments.
The whole Islamist mess came about because of the West's backing fundamentalists like rather than nationally approved leaders.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM

including Muslims (aks islamists).

NO!!
Muslims ARE NOT also known as Islamists.
That is a very ignorant and dangerous lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

"Gandhi required Muslims to recognize that Islam like any other religion was neither the whole truth nor nothing but the truth."

" When some women were stoned to death in Afghanistan for allegedly committing adultery, Gandhi criticized it, saying that "this particular form of penalty cannot be defended on the ground of its mere mention in the Koran." and he added, "every formula of every religion has in this age of reason to submit to the acid test of reason and universal justice if it is to ask for universal assent."

Islamists would kill him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

Rather than promote prejudice and hate towards those in other religions, Ghandi reached out to people of all religions, including Muslims (aks islamists).


Mahatma Gandhi's struggle against religious fanaticism.  

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

I did not just mean bad people Musket you old chump.

Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy and the imposition on all people by force of Islamic rule under extreme, medieval Sharia Law.

Is there an equivalent movement in any other religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:38 AM

Yes Keith. I name it Christianism. It was starting to die out as people in The West became less superstitious and felt self conscious pretending to believe in make believe.

However, chiefly through advertising itself in areas of ignorant shit kickers, in particularly areas of Baptist strongholds in Dumbfuckistan, it became popular again. Indeed, you can't become President of the land of the free without claiming allegiance to it.

The most nasty elements are where they can practice their medieval traits such as Uganda.

I believe their slogan is contained in a call to arms song, and is "Christ thy right."




Easy isn't it? And no different to some of the Islamaphobia on this and countless other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

"Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?"

CHRISTIAN TERRORISM

JEWISH DEFENCE LEAGUE

BOSNIAN GENOCIDE

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

I wasn't pointing it out to people, I was pointing it out to Akenaton as I do not think he has the intelligence to notice how his blind prejudice comes out.

Tell you what, I shall take his comment at face value and ask how Christians can ALL be tolerant when both Anglican and RC sects don't see gay people as equal. When women are barred from high office. When they fight attempts to lift Sunday trading restrictions so normal people have to suffer for their hobby.

Oh, and the murdering gangs in Uganda and CAR who rape and pillage in the name of their religion every bit as much as Islamist fanatics do in theirs. Not to mention the US baptist churches bank rolling the Ugandan politicians who tried to introduce capital punishment for being gay.

There are many good people on this planet. Statically, many of them are practicing Christians and Muslims. But neither can ignore the bad apples claiming affinity and neither religion is tolerant till every person regardless of their status has a chance at equal membership. A plague on both their houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?

Most Muslims are indeed tolerant people.
Islamists are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

I believe many others likely noticed that example of "doublespeak" Musket. But, anyway, thanks for pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

Actually, Ake, I spend very little time considering your one-dimentional, predictable and "sketchy" reasoning, as most if it I find quite simplistic in nature. While I am sympathitic that everyoes reasoning power is not objective and the same, I do find prejuduces ugly.

""We are least open to precise knowledge concerning the things we are most vehement about"" Eric Hoffer 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

Let's see. Akenaton just said that all Christians are tolerant. He then says Islamists are dangerous fanatics.

What is the link between those two sentences?

Are Muslims as peaceful and tolerant as Christians then? Is there hope for you yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

"Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists""
I spent much of the 60s on the streets protesting about Christian America pouring burning petrol (napalm) and carcinogenic chemicals (Agent Orange) on South East Asian peasants, with the backing of much of the Christian world
A decade or so earlier, Christian America, with the backing of Christian Britain dropped two horrific weapons on two Japanese cities, the effects of which are still evident in newborn children.
During WW2, 'Hitler's Pope', Pius XII, looked the other way while Italy's Jews were being herded into the gas chambers.
Christian Spain allowed the Luftwaffe to practice its skill on the market-goers of Guernica
The same church, some a couple of decades earlier blessed the bombs which were destined for the people of Abyssinia
A few years earlier, Christian "Gallant Little Belgium" slaughtered 10 million Congolese in pursuit of rubber.... how far do you want to go back?
"War is hell" - I understand!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

"there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists" - Akenaton

No truer words ever stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

No doublespeak Ed. Everything I have written is clear and verifiable.

I take it you disagree? well lets hear your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

More doublespeak, Ake?
Orwell would "not" be proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

Ed I don't know what you are trying to insinuate, but there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

"I have nev"eard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions."

I guess the good messages of the minister fell on infertile ground- (Possibly a good example of "doublespeak")?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

Regarding moderation, I think those who habitually lie or misrepresent in discussion, are a menace to the forum and will eventually destroy it.

There are many decent members who stay silent when these people attack, and I'm sorry to say it is often their political views that keep them silent.
This is short term reasoning, as the important thing is freedom of discussion.....and the golden rule is always tell the truth, do not use multiple handles to support your views, and avoid personal abuse.

The moderators do well, it must be almost impossible and so bloody boring to keep checking and deleting the shit. It's up to the membership to speak up whenever gross bad behaviour occurs, its OUR forum too. Forget politics, freedom of expression is much more important, you people from the US should know that!