BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:27 AM

"The Islamic State (IS) armed group is carrying out a campaign of ethnic cleansing in northern Iraq, targeting religious and ethnic minorites with mass killings and abductions, Amnesty International says.

In a report released on Tuesday, the global rights body said systematic violence in Iraq had increased to a historic scale.

"The massacres and abductions being carried out by the Islamic State provide harrowing new evidence that a wave of ethnic cleansing against minorities is sweeping across northern Iraq," said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International's Senior Crisis Response Adviser currently in northern in Iraq."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 12:36 PM

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

I don't recall subscribing to a newsfeed called beardedbruce and to be fair, I prefer ones with less bias towards the unfortunate, but thanks for supplying it anyway.

if anyone knows how to stop news feeds on threads expecting opinions of members.. Oh, hang on. Scrub that. I prefer cut & paste to braidedbeardedbruce's take on situations he doesn't understand in the first place.

---

Mod butting in here.
While it's acceptable to quote from an article or provide a link to support one's posting of their own opinion, quoting entire articles or simply giving a link is not. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 11:26 AM

gave and cone...

should be have and come...

iPhone for sale

Nice to see torture and base instinct is popular with the less evolved scum around here...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:48 AM

Yes bobad, what goes around comes around.

Some people don't respond to reason....the old maxim of "don't get mad, get even" usually does the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 07:44 AM

I am presently sat outside a Costa Cafe. Across from me are two old men with sandwich boards and bibles shouting to shoppers to return to Jesus. (Bearing in mind most people they are shouting at gave never been to Jesus any more than they have been to the moon. )

One of them has starting shouting that Muslims bear false testimony and must be obliterated from the face of the earth. When a copper walks past I might just mention it.

It occurs to me that if I were of the Mohammedian persuasion and went over to kick the fuck out of the disgusting twat, Islamic hate of innocent old men might just reach page three of the local free press.

Funny thing superstition. You can disown your own if you are of the Christian cult but all Muslims get tarred with the same holy brush.

(An aside. Someone is reading The a Daily Mirror on the next table. The headline is that "Brit doctors will cure Ebola." Notwithstanding the stupidity of the headline in the first place, it occurs to me that when I helped the review of the hospital in Swansea (helping The Welsh Assembly with their flavour of quality regulation )where a doctor who had contracted it was sent for treatment, she would have been under the care of, amongst others, the two haematologists who share the call rota there. These particular Brits... One is from Syria and the other Iraq. They got microbiology advice from a prof appointed by the RC. Yes, Walid comes from Iraq cone to think of it.

Funny thing superstition. A bit like nationalism. Just as repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 06:58 AM

Interesting piece in the LA Times from 1986 about how the Soviets dealt with Muslim extremists who kidnapped some Soviet diplomats in Lebanon:

QUOTE: "The Soviet secret police last year secured the release of three kidnaped Soviet diplomats in Beirut by castrating a relative of a radical Lebanese Shia Muslim leader, sending him the severed organs and then shooting the relative in the head."

"The KGB then apparently kidnaped and killed a relative of an unnamed leader of the Shias' Hezbollah (Party of God) group, a radical, pro-Iranian group that has been suspected of various terrorist activities against Western targets in Lebanon.

Parts of the man's body, the paper said, were then sent to the Hezbollah leader with a warning that he would lose other relatives in a similar fashion if the three remaining Soviet diplomats were not immediately released. They were quickly freed.

The newspaper quoted "observers in Jerusalem" as saying: "This is the way the Soviets operate. They do things--they don't talk. And this is the language Hezbollah understands."

LA Times

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:42 AM

Well, Keith seems to be a different wavelength to at least two vicars and a Chaplain I could mention. They are Christians, and have the payslips to prove it.

Mind you, be fair Jim. He certainly has the self righteous zeal of your average God botherer. The dozy bugger is dripping in mis placed sanctimony.

The only second coming I know of is down to style, technique and going bald at an early age.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:26 AM

"but I am likely to be a better judge than either of you on that."
Why - if you are in any way representative of Christianity they'd all be screaming headbangers.
What gives you the slightest superiority over anbody else on a subject we've all been brought up under and are influenced by.
Decided to take the cloth - now there's a thought!!
There you go again - infallibility.
There is a cure, you know.
By the way - you blatantly lied about having access to the Haaretz article you have yet to produce (still welcome to do so).
Haaretz never opens up its full articles to non subscribers as you claimed when producing its headline as evidence for Israel claims.
Why do you have to invent things and claim infallibility if you arguments actually believe your bullshit?
Want to produce the contents of that article now - no? - didn't think so.
Moron
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:48 PM

KANO (NIGERIA): Boko Haram's leader said he has created an Islamic caliphate in a northeast Nigeria town seized by the insurgents earlier this month, in a video obtained by AFP on Sunday.

"Thanks be to Allah who gave victory to our brethren in (the town of) Gwoza and made it part of the Islamic caliphate," Abubakar Shekau said in the 52-minute video. He declared that Gwoza, in Borno state, now has "nothing to do with Nigeria".

"By the grace of Allah we will not leave the town. We have come to stay," said Shekau, who has been designated a global terrorist by the United States and sanctioned by the UN Security Council. The UN humanitarian office (OCHA) earlier this month confirmed reports that Gwoza was under rebel control.

Boko Haram is also believed to be in control of other areas near Gwoza in southern Borno, as well as large swathes of territory in northern Borno and at least one town in neighbouring Yobe state. Mapping the precise areas which have fallen into Islamist hands is nearly an impossible task.

There are few humanitarian workers on the ground in the northeast, travel is dangerous and the region, which has been under a state of emergency since May of last year, has poor mobile phone coverage.

Experts have described Boko Haram's gains in recent weeks as unprecedented, saying the group was closer than ever to achieving its goal of carving out a strict Islamic state across northern Nigeria. But many analysts believe that the military has the capacity to reverse the insurgents's advance.

Soldiers this week refused to deploy to Gwoza without better weapons in an apparent mutiny.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Boko-Haram-chief-declares-caliphate-in-Nigeria-town/articleshow/40862400.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:46 PM

BEIRUT: Islamic State militants stormed an air base in northeast Syria on Sunday, capturing it from government forces after days of fighting that cost more than 500 lives, a monitoring group said.

The Syrian observatory for human rights said at least 346 Islamic State fighters were killed and more than 170 members of government forces had died since Tuesday in the fight over Tabqa base, making it one of the deadliest confrontations between the two groups since the start of Syria's war.

The observatory, which monitors violence in Syria through sources on the ground, said fighting raged inside the air base on Sunday. It was the Syrian army's last foothold in an area otherwise controlled by Islamic State, which has seized large areas of Syria and Iraq.

In nearby Raqqa city, an Islamic State stronghold, there was celebratory gunfire and several mosques announced through their loudspeakers that the base had fallen to the Islamists and cheered "God is greatest", a witness told Reuters.

IS fighters displayed the severed heads of Syrian army soldiers in the city square, the witness said, adding that Syrian warplanes were heard over Raqqa following the air base attack. Earlier on Sunday the Syrian air force had bombed areas around the base.

Syrian state television said that after fierce battles, the military was "regrouping".

Citing a military source, it said there was a "successful evacuation of the airport" and that the army was continuing strikes on "terrorist groups" in the area, which it said had suffered heavy losses.

Syrian state media gave no figure for the number of people killed in the clashes.

Islamic State had also trapped around 150 retreating Syrian soldiers in an area near the base and was believed to be holding them captive, the Observatory said.

The Syrian army sent reinforcements to the base overnight on Friday to fight Islamic State, which controls roughly a third of northern and eastern Syria.

Syrian television had shown footage of army forces defending the base on Saturday who had said it was safe from Islamic State's advances. Many of the Islamic State fighters died after Syrian warplanes bombarded the area, the observatory said.

Military Bases

Islamic State, a radical offshoot of al Qaeda, has taken three Syrian military bases in the area in recent weeks, boosted by arms seized in Iraq.

Syria is calculating that the IS push to reshape the Middle East will eventually force the West to deal with President Bashar al-Assad as the only way to tackle the threat, sources familiar with Syrian government thinking have said.

Elsewhere in Syria, the group withdrew from northern areas it controlled outside the city of Homs on Sunday and retreated east after coming under attack from rival Islamist fighters, the Observatory said.

Fighters from the group withdrew from a headquarters north of Homs on the orders of their leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Observatory said, citing sources in the area.

They said IS gave up the territory to Nusra Front, al Qaeda's official wing in Syria.

As well as Nusra Front, Western-backed rebels have also been fighting IS in Syria but have regularly been defeated by the group, which in June declared an "Islamic caliphate" in the territory it controls.

Activists have accused the Syrian army of avoiding confrontations with IS because it has weakened rival rebel groups also battling Assad.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Hundreds-dead-as-Islamic-State-seizes-Syrian-air-base/articleshow/40864203.c

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:35 PM

Lots of wacky sects and cults.
The Chinese one is not Christian.
If you think some Christians might not agree with me, good luck, but I am likely to be a better judge than either of you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM

"I can not stop you calling them Christians, but actual Christians know they are not."
You seem to have moved on from speaking on behalf of the Israelis to speaking on behalf of all Christians.
You have a list of the various brands of Extremist Christianity - next to them this particular bunch of nutters seems to be fairly small potatoes
ANOTHER ONE

AND ANOTHER

AND ANOTHER

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:57 PM

Whereas they reckon you aren't a Christian...

You can't have it both ways. If you call "Islamists" people who follow Islam, then Christians are Christians, whether they are old biddies cramming for their finals between flower arranging and beetle drives or butchers murdering Muslims in CAR, they are Christians. I assume those in China will be ex Christians when the savage government over there execute them. Are they martyrs or deranged nutters?

Anyway, when you say something odd and irrational such as believing a second coming when a first one never actually happened because it physically can't how can any rational person take you seriously?

Even most vicars see it as stories with morals, you daft twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:04 PM

Muslims revere Jesus, but believe that their later prophet was greater.
Would you call them Christians?

This sect revere a Chinese lady who no other Christians accept as the Christ.
It is not how we believe the second coming will come about.
They are not Christians.
I can not stop you calling them Christians, but actual Christians know they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

Whoops
CHRISTIAN TERRORISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:25 AM

"That sect you posted about are not Christians"
This is typival of your argument Keith - if their behaviour is inconvenient to your argument they are not Christians.
""I have seen some of their teaching material," said Peng Baoshun. "It begins just like normal Christianity, with no difference at all. But when you get more involved, they introduce the theory of (Yang) being 'Almighty God.'" Peng said the teachings were straightforward. "They just want you to repeat over and over that you obey 'God,' listen to her, and not fight back. And there are threats for those who think of quitting."
Jim Carroll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorismEXTREMIST CHRISTIANS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

"Chinese Christians."
There are many, and life is very difficult for them.
That sect you posted about are not Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM

Have you noticed that those saying all Muslims are potential Islamists

I have not notices anyone saying that.
Made up.

Chinese Christians are different Christians to them?

They are not Christians.

Then he says the American Christian cults bankrolling homophobic Ugandan politicians don't exist,

No I did not.
Made up.
I just asked if there was any evidence for it.
Is there?
Last time you had none.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:23 AM

Have you noticed that those saying all Muslims are potential Islamists are saying the Chinese Christians are different Christians to them?

You couldn't make it up.





Though Keith does try, to be fair.

Then he says the American Christian cults bankrolling homophobic Ugandan politicians don't exist, despite a couple of them being proud enough to be interviewed in a documentary...

Is there any point in discussing IS whilst such bullshit and bollocks is being spread over the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:00 PM

Sounds more like mishigas than messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

But "the" messiah is sent by God, so he can't be random. A random messiah would be a false messiah. If you believe in a messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:39 PM

I think that if you believe that *the* messiah promised by the Old Testament god to his chosen people is coming to save you, individually, as part of those chosen people, then yes, you are of the jewish faith.

If you believe some other random messiah is coming, then no, you're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

" Be off with you, stinking Carroll"
Back to the schoolyard whenever you are at a loss for a response.
" I said you couldn't find an example of a non-Muslim murderer of an innocent passer-by on a public highway using any such quote to justify his action"
How about the thousand plus passers by who have had their highways, homes and schools taken away as well as being blasted to smithereens by Israeli artillery in the name of 'A promised Land'
Don't suppose that fits your bigoted bill though, does it?
Wish I could say I am disappointed - long past that I'm afraid
Off to report you to teacher!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

I didn't say you couldn't 'find an equivalent quote", DISINGENUOUS filthy stinking Carroll. I said you couldn't find an example of a non-Muslim murderer of an innocent passer-by on a public highway using any such quote to justify his action, both to a brave passer-by who had intervened and later as a defence in court.

You are not merely being disingenuous, you are being blatantly dishonest. I am bloody disgusted with you; & you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. But of course you are not. Much too disingenuous a bleeding liar for any such emotion. Be off with you, stinking Carroll, you nasty piece of filth. I have had enough of debasing myself even to be appearing to argue with the graceless likes of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM

"Not just "God on their side", Jim; but actual quoted Koranic injunctions for such actions. You are being disingenuous, and don't pretend not to know it..."
I really am not and you are deliberately avoiding every single point being made to justify your now admitted bigotry.
For every quote from the Qran you could find its equivalent from the bible
Wanna try a pissing competition?
Jim Carroll

"fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."   (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)"

"So Joshua conquered the entire region – the hill country, the Negev, the land of Goshen, the western foothills, the Jordan Valley, and the mountains and lowlands of Israel. The Israelite territory now extended all the way from Mount Halak, which leads up to Seir, to Baal-gad at the foot of Mount Hermon in the valley of Lebanon. Joshua killed all the kings of those territories, waging war for a long time to accomplish this. No one in this region made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites of Gibeon. All the others were defeated. For the LORD hardened their hearts and caused them to fight the Israelites instead of asking for peace. So they were completely and mercilessly destroyed, as the LORD had commanded Moses.   (Joshua 11:16-20 NLT)"

"The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that the Israelites were approaching on the road to Atharim. So he attacked the Israelites and took some of them as prisoners. Then the people of Israel made this vow to the LORD: "If you will help us conquer these people, we will completely destroy all their towns." The LORD heard their request and gave them victory over the Canaanites. The Israelites completely destroyed them and their towns, and the place has been called Hormah ever since.   (Numbers 21:1-3 NLT)"

"Weep and moan, you evil shepherds! Roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock! The time of your slaughter has arrived; you will fall and shatter like fragile pottery. You will find no place to hide; there will be no way to escape. Listen to the frantic cries of the shepherds, to the leaders of the flock shouting in despair, for the LORD is spoiling their pastures. Peaceful meadows will be turned into a wasteland by the LORD's fierce anger. He has left his den like a lion seeking its prey, and their land will be made desolate by the sword of the enemy and the LORD's fierce anger.   (Jeremiah 25:34-38 NLT)"

"In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground.   (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)"

"Then the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me, "Take from my hand this cup filled to the brim with my anger, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. When they drink from it, they will stagger, crazed by the warfare I will send against them."   (Jeremiah 25:15-16 NLT)"

"And now the LORD Almighty says: Because you have not listened to me, I will gather together all the armies of the north under King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, whom I have appointed as my deputy. I will bring them all against this land and its people and against the other nations near you. I will completely destroy you and make you an object of horror and contempt and a ruin forever. I will take away your happy singing and laughter. The joyful voices of bridegrooms and brides will no longer be heard. Your businesses will fail, and all your homes will stand silent and dark. This entire land will become a desolate wasteland.   (Jeremiah 25:8-11 NLT)"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:46 AM

Not just "God on their side", Jim; but actual quoted Koranic injunctions for such actions. You are being disingenuous, and don't pretend not to know it...

eg -- chapter 9, verse 5 -- "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

I am well aware that Muslims sometimes claim that these are being taken out of context, & can only be held to apply in conditions of war. But the killers of Mr Rigby claimed explicitly that such injunctions applied in their case because they were engaged in an act of war in killing him; which was notoriously the defence they adduced at their trial.

So summarising such explicit justifications as simply an instance of "God on our side" really won't do, Jim. &, again I say, don't pretend you don't realise it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

How can it be a Christian cult if it believes in a different Christ?

Am I of the Jewish faith because they believe a Messiah is coming?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:32 AM

The claim about Christians being behind Ugandan failed legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM

Yawn.. Some say good old Keith. Some say fuck him.

Which claim was that then? You don't have to answer with more bollocks if you dont wish. By saying what you did, you possibly managed to carry out your aim of lying to slur people.

I don't blame you. You have no argument so it is all you can do.

I like you saying a Christian cult aren't Christians. pete reckons you aren't...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM

" themselves claim as their motivations."
God on our side you mean - haven't we heard that before somewhere?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM

"I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to dispute this one way or another and I very much doubt if you do"

.,,.

I make no claim to do so, Jim. I merely rely on what the perpetrators of the sort of acts I refer to [you know perfectly well the sort of thing mean here] themselves claim as their motivations. Can you name an incident of recent occurrence in which an innocent pedestrian was hacked to pieces with machetes by a pair of Christians who then told a passer-by that they were acting in accordance with the injunctions contained in Malachi 3 or Zepheniah 13 or Nahum 2? -- or any even remotely comparable incident? I think not.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:50 AM

" Jim; I agree entirely with that postulation"
My earlier post seems to have gone walkabout.
"I say again that IMO Islam is one with the greatest potential for harm in its teachings"
I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to dispute this one way or another and I very much doubt if you do, but you are welcome to enlighten m on this.
I very much doubt if it can match something like this in any of it's teachings.
EVIL BIBLE QUOTES
And there's plenty more where they come from.
The use and misuse of Christianity for persecution and gain has as long a track-record as any other religion from the three centuries of the Inquisition and the Crusades through 20th century Ireland, taking in the blessing of bombs and Hitler's Pope Pius XII who nodded thousands of Italian Jews through to the German death camps.
Closest to home and most recent is the two decade long bloody warfare in Britain over a country which was deliberately partitioned on religious grounds for political and economic reasons.
We are at present trying to get our heads around a massacre of over 2000 people over a territorial dispute prompted by an aggressively expansionist policy heavily influenced by claims of a 'Chosen People' demanding their God-given 'Promised Land'.
Put any religion at the disposal of politicians or financeers, or give any church any influence beyond spiritual guidance and you have a toxic mix.
I know for a fact that whatever their background, given the opportunity and the motivation, Muslims are as capable of accepting change as those of any other faith - one of the most recurring pieces of advice given to those moving to countries of other faiths is that the laws and customs of their host nations be obeyed and respected.
It is no coincidence that the problem Muslim areas are or recently have been run by feudal despots, often backed by the West out of self-interest.
The rise in power of Isis can be traced directly back to Syria, and the cynical failure of the West not to become involved until it was too late - little to do with religion or belief.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 04:37 AM

"Church of Almighty God, a cult that believes that Jesus has risen in the shape of a 40-something Chinese woman named Yang Xiangbin, also sometimes known as Lightning Deng."

Christians still await the second coming, so these a hardly Christians.

last time we discussed Uganda (!) you failed to find any evidence for your claim.
What do you have now?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:47 AM

We seem to have a new god botherer in our midst.

Welcome to the fray teddyboy, although this thread is about the dangers of taking superstition seriously, not advocating it.

Your comment about Christians not blah blah. The Christian terror cult in China that murdered a person in McDonalds for not converting there and then. Their trial is on the news should you wish to learn more. Also, the role of American Christian groups in funding persecution of gay people in Uganda is coming ever more to light.

It isn't Islam this, Old Testament that, Wicca the other. It's the unhelpful excuse that religion gives to bigotry, division and ultimately atrocity.

Christianity is just a different arm. The only thing that does seem to distinguish it is that many people calling themselves Christian are too sophisticated and educated to actually believe in the nonsense bit.

That's why they no longer burn me and other normal people at the stake for heresy. Christianity in The UK is more of a tradition. Although of course you get the odd gullible disturbed fool for whom membership has become less than helpful for their mental state.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

Indeed, Jim; I agree entirely with that postulation. But would add that, altho they are all mischievous in their various ways, this does not lead to the conclusion sometimes asserted that they are all equally so, so one shouldn't try to 'demonise' any above the others. I say again that IMO Islam is one with the greatest potential for harm in its teachings, and that to say that we should not take measures to protect ourselves from some of the potential of its effects is equivalent to asserting that, as all illnesses are undesirable, it doesn't really matter if you get cancer or a cold. I have been accused of "twisting someone's words" in making this comparison, but I remain blowed if I can see how.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:16 AM

"My, my Mr Carroll, you really don't like the Catholics, do you? "
I have no religion, but I have no objection to anybody's else's beliefs, just how those beliefs are misused by those who choose to do so.
"Christianity has come on by leaps and bounds"
Your argument appears to be based on them and us - my God is better than yours - which is what makes the Caliphate the menace that it is.
The sooner that all religions are forcibly removed from having any say in anything other spiritual guidance - and that under the strictest scrutiny, the batter, as far as I'm concerned.
They can all go to their own chosen Hells in their own particular handcarts as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM

My, my Mr Carroll, you really don't like the Catholics, do you? Well, we're in the same boat there, I'm only glad that we had the Reformation, since when real Christianity has come on by leaps and bounds. I cannot answer any of your comments above, as they don't actually refer to anything remotely Christian, as far as I can see. But I will get back to you as soon as I'm able. It's now after midnight, and I'm off to bed. Good night and God bless! By the way, I've lived in a small Egyptian town for most of the last 7 years, where most of my friends are Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:11 PM

"Don't know about you Mr Carroll, but I haven't heard of any Christian community which is currently forcing anyone else to convert at the point of a sword"
Didn't say they have, just that they would if they could just as they have in the past
I quoted the Christian doctrine in response to your Muslim one.
All churces, no mater which particular brand of superstition they drom in their shopping trolley, are a threat to the lives of believers and non-believers alike if they are given enough power.
Scriptures such as that you quoted are meaningless without that power.
In the past the Christian church hasn't bothered with the sword - they tortured them util they recanted then burned them alive before they could change their minds.
I spent a large part of my life associating with ordinary, down-to-earth Muslims - I have said a hundred times that I found virtually every one of them far easier to discuss my non-belief with that I did committed non-Christians.
No - Christians no longer burn non-believers, but you might have read about the long-term rape of children here in Holy Ireland, carried out by clergymen and covered up (and even facilitated) by the church - that particular brand of persecution lasted for many decades, possibly centuries.
Or the Magdalene Laundries for "fallen women" which were slave driving sweat shops for girls unlucky enough to fall pregnant - the last of these closed in 1996.
Or the Homes for sinners, with their appalling punishments and mass graves.
Or the Church inspired pregnancy laws existing in Ireland which killed one woman the year before last - we are in the throes of another case at the present time where a 16 year old rape victim in danger of suicide was refused a pregnancy termination (despite theoretically being entitled to one), went on hunger strike, was force-hydrated to keep her and the foetus alive, then finally had to endure a Caesarian operation - not bad for a sixteen-year old.
The laws that should have given her access to an early termination were introduced recently following the death of a young mother who died having been refused a life saving operation "Because Ireland is a Catholic country".
None of this in any way adds up to beheadings - but it just goes to show what a church is capable of when it puts its mind to it.
Please don't tell me about religions which persecute - most do when they are allowed to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

"Missed a bit:"

Don't know about you Mr Carroll, but I haven't heard of any Christian community which is currently forcing anyone else to convert at the point of a sword. Neither is there one which would actually kill another Christian if they ever denied their faith.

Furthermore; It's no use quoting the Old Testament at Christians, we live and die by the "New Covenant" which is Jesus (the Christ), that's why we are called "Christians", or didn't you realise that?

Whilst I wouldn't and couldn't argue with the point you make in the immediately previous answer, it's all a bit academic, isn't it? Which one of us hasn't made a bad commercial decision and lived to regret it? As we cannot change history, shouldn't we now be looking at how to protect these poor innocents and finding a way out of this dreadful situation, rather than trying to lay blame for something which is/was inevitable anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

Missed a bit:
""I bear witness that there is no god except Allah....""
Holy Bible New Living Translation
"I am the LORD; there is no other God. I have equipped you for battle, though you don't even know me,"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

"Contributors bickering among themselves doesn't alter the fact that the savages who are collectively known as Islamic State would have, eventually, gained arms from somewhere"
Yes - of course the could, but when the two largest arms traders on the planet are happily trading arms with Terrorist states and feudal despots - especially ones who support groups like Isis, doesn't the job of arming themselves become that much easier?
As for your comments on Islam - religions are religions anywhere yo go and will do whatever they are allowed to get away in pursuit of their own particular product - the only thing that differentiate one from the other is opportunity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:08 AM

Contributors bickering among themselves doesn't alter the fact that the savages who are collectively known as Islamic State would have, eventually, gained arms from somewhere (anywhere?) with which to wage their 'Holy War'.

There is no possibility of negotiating with radical Islam, as it's adherents do not interpret the words of either the Quran or the somewhat doubtful record of the habits of their 'prophet', they are told exactly what Allah requires of them. Their fear of the various terrifying punishments for disobedience, or their pitiful, deluded, expectations of sexual gratification (that, of course, being the absolute peak of possible human experience!) from their promised virgins soon persuades naive and fearful, testosterone laden, young kids to pledge their lives for the cause of Allah! To them, anyone not Muslim is as dirt under their feet, and therefore their views, beliefs or opinions are completely irrelevant as they are obviously not subjugated to the words of Allah's Quran as recited by Muhammad.   

The fact that 'converts' (however converted) repeat the words of the shahada is good enough; actual belief is not really worried about as long as the new recruits bow down to the sacred stone in Macca 5 times a day and fill their conversation with insh'Allahs and al ham dulillahs, they're fine!

If they aren't stopped soon; it'll be us that will be repeating those words before long! Better get some practice in, eh? All together now, repeat after me "I bear witness that there is no god except Allah...."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:35 AM

Another reminder
Isis cut its teeth in Syria on the basis of being able to step in and grow because of the refusal of the U.N. and the west to become involved.
Had they done so, there would be no basis for Isis to become involved.
Arms and manpower support for the Syrian opposition could and should have been backed up by economic sanctions and confiscation of the considerable Assad property and possessions in Britain - defectors from Assad's regime were urging that this should happen as he valued his contacts and his long-lasting relationship with Britain.
Not only did none of this happen, but at the height of the Homs massacre a British minister was publicly quoted as saying that the Syrian conflict should in no way effect future trade, whoever emerged as winner.
Isis is a Frankenstein creation of the West's own making.
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM

"When those countries were supplying arms to the Syrian rebels including ISIS, pacifist Jim was demanding that Britain and the West should supply them arms too!"
Let me remind you that this was when those rebels were fighting to overthrow Assad and weer not dominated by extremists - and nobody claimed that the were.
Britain, America and the rest of the western world actually debated whether to fill the gap that had been left by the U.N. veto - had there been oil involved, the U.S. would not have hesitated to fill that gap.
Let me also remind you that your proposed solution was to supply Assad with the wherewithal to quash the protests in the form of armoured cars tear gas, high pressure water cannons and other riot control equipment (this was at the time the citizens of Homs were being used as target practice by snipers possibly having been trained using ammunition sold to Assad by Britain - you thought they were "a handful of sniper rifles" and approved that too)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM

Let me remind you of something.

When those countries were supplying arms to the Syrian rebels including ISIS, pacifist Jim was demanding that Britain and the West should supply them arms too!

Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

"You are wrong again."
You have been given the information of their having done so
It has always been Britain's policy to sell arms to whoever will buy them - that nice Mr Cable said so himself
You have been given that information as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:08 AM

"SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS"

No they are not.
You are wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:21 AM

"No they are not"
Yes they do - they have supplied arms to Isis in the recent past - those arms would possibly have come from Britain.
If they are no longer actually supplying arms it is, as Saudi Arabia has said, because of the fear that Isis will move in on them - they remain supporters of Isis.
Kuwait, Qatar and Turkey all purchase arms from Britain and have supplied or assisted in arming Isis - why are you ignoring these?
Britain's and America's arms policy is totally undiscriminating - they sell to whoever will buy, Britain's trade minister, Vince Cable, has admitted as much.
Indirectly, Britain and America have contributed to the rise of Isis, by failing to act against mass-murderer Assad and by selling him arms and equipment, and now, in selling arms to States which have supported Isis in their rise to power.
On the eve of the Arab Spring protests, David Cameron hosted a massive Arms fair in order to sell arms to the very despots who were being protested against.
In Libya, Britain actively supported the rebels who were fighting Qaddafi - whose forces were using arms sold to them by Britain.
Britain and America have helped arm and have given support to some of the most despotic States in the world, and are continuing to do so - they have now added Isis to that list.
Should Isis ever achieve its aims, there is little doubt that, should the present policies continue, they will become 'valued customers' - business has no principles as to who it sells to.
What are you doing Keith - why are you supporting a policy that has armed terrorist States by denying what is done and dusted - you have the facts of what has been done in the recent past and what is happening now.
You are a right-wing fanatic whose only interest is in supporting extremist right-wing policies and big business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 02:34 AM

Personally I like the bit where he put "no they do not" followed by "well, maybe just a bit. In the early days etc,"

You aren't making a speech Keith. Once you type, it isn't out. You can go back and remove the contradictions before posting.

Snag is, without contradicting yourself, your posts wouldn't have any merit for reading them.

Back to reality on the level grown ups may be interested. I notice Assad is trying to get back in the good books of Western leaders by turning on the IS on his turf. Interesting dilemma all round?