BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM

You seem to be calling the West Bank Israel, you old reactionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:30 PM

Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens.

Yeah, right, minnow. Ask the guys who get held up for three days at road blocks, the people who are prevented from visiting their families, the thousands held without charge in Israeli jails, the Palestinian farmers whose land was slashed in half by the apartheid wall, whether they think that they enjoy "the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens". None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Iznogoud
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:41 PM

Je veux etre Calife au place du Calife!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM

Lying again Musket?
Bugger. I missed it this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:06 PM

Take subjective writings by people with agendas, copy and paste them into Mudcat and call anyone a liar who disputes them.

I wonder how any of you would fare at actually debating this subject? To date, your immaturity has been fucking hilarious, or would be if some of it wasn't so odious.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 11:55 AM

In any country with freedom of speech there will be many voices raised in condemnation of their own country.
I acknowledge that you have found a few Jews and Israelis who do that.
So what?
Bobad's post is factually correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 11:23 AM

"Please identify which fact(s) in Boberts post that you dispute Jim."
Pleae respond to the pints I have put up over and over again and you have chosen to ignore
And before you accuse me of avoiding your question - count how many you have refused to answer.
If you don't feel you want to respond to awkward questions, I suggest you go somewhere you are able to cherry-pick only the ones you want
Your starter for ten:
"Do you dispute what Mondoweiss has to say about Israeli equality?
What do you think of what Mr Levi has to say about Israeli war crimes
How about The Inequality report - you've never shared your infallibility on that one?
How about all those children turned to jelly or mummified - not a peep?
You claim Israel isn't creating an Apartheid state - many Jews do - Anti-Semites, no doubt."
Left out the Laurel and Hardy one - it doesn't matter, you're both a pair of clowns.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:23 AM

Please identify which fact(s) in Boberts post that you dispute Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:16 AM

"Do you dispute anything in Bobad's post Jim?"
Absolutely
Don't suppose you do though.
Do you dispute what Mondoweiss has to say about Israeli equality?
What do you think of what Mr Levi has to say about Israeli war crimes
How about The Inequality report - you've never shared your infallibility on that one?
How about all those children turned to jelly or mummified - not a peep?
You claime Israel isn't creating an Apartheid state - many Jews do - Anti-Semites, no doubt.
Have you decided which one of you is Laurel and which one Hardy yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 09:37 AM

Do you dispute anything in Bobad's post Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

Your quote came from Flame - Facts and logic About the Middle East
This is how Israel and spokesmen likeFlame display their tolerance
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI TOLERANCE

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:01 AM

Israel is by far the most racially mixed and tolerant nation in the entire Muslim Middle East. Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens. The total equality of all Israelis is assured in Israel's founding document. All non-Jews (which means primarily Muslim Arabs) have full voting rights. At present, eleven Arabs sit in Israel's Knesset (parliament): Three Arabs are deputy speakers. Arabs are represented in Israel's diplomatic service all over the world. Arab students may and do study in all Israeli universities. All children in Israel are entitled to subsidized education until graduation, without any restrictions based on color or religions. In short, Muslim Arabs and other non-Jews are allowed everything that Jews are allowed, everything that non-Whites were not allowed in apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:56 AM

Thank yo for the correction - doesn't invalidate the quote though nor alter its significance in any way.
"Israel only represents a threat to anyone who would threaten and attack Israel "
Israel has threatened and attacked anyody who got in the way of the setting up of a Jewish state from the beginning - the British left Palestine to the sound of Arab homes being rippred apart by hand-granades, many still with the occupants in them
It does not demonstrate tolerance, equality and respect in any way for anybody other than the Israeli people - The Equality report shows that in detail, the setting up of an Apartheid State has formalised that fact and offering to sell nuclear weapons to Apartheid South Africa is a clear indication that the Israeli regime has no problem with the system or its behaviour.
The setting up of a State for 'The Chosen People' as a god given right declared my Zionist extremists is indication enough of the religious content of its policy
This has nothing to do with Judaism any more than the behaviour of Islamic fanatics has to do with the Muslim religion - in both cases it is the action of religious extremists.
These facts have been stated by Jews and non-Jews alike - you fail even to mention Gideon Levi's statement, let alone respond to it.
"Not Israel, but Egypt denies basic citizenship right to its Bedouin population."
Israel has shown its attitude to the Bedouins in the shape of spraying them with chemicals in order to drive them off their farms and attempting to drive them onto toxic sites
No nation has a monopoly on the abuse of itinerate people - Britain being among the worst offenders.
If we can't discuss Israel on this thread - how come we can discuss Egypt
Thought virtually every discussion on Israel/Palestine, you have attempted to divert the discussion to elsewhere, Egypt included in order not to discuss Israeli atrocities.
Now, when we discuss a Muslim Extremism, Israel, another state influenced by religious extremism, becomes thread-drift.
And now you want to talk about Egypt again.
Israel is in the process of creating an Apartheid State - that fact has been condemned by Jews and non-Jews alike - you don't bother to comment when you are given examples of Jews criticising the Israeli regime
You people are a joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:29 AM

"I tend to go with Issac Newton on the difference between democracy and freedom:
"Democracy is a lamb and two wolves discussing what they are going to have for dinner.
Freedom is when the lamb takes up a gun and says, "it ain't gonna be me". - Christmas

Wrong again Christmas Issac Newton said nothing of the sort

The precise quote comes from Benjamin Franklin as reads:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Israel only represents a threat to anyone who would threaten and attack Israel - their track record since the country declared independence in 1948 demonstrates this - Fact clearly substantiated and easily verified - simple matter of record.

An Apartheid State eh? Here is another simple matter of record for you Christmas:

Demographics of Israel:
Population of Israel 1949 to 2008

Almost 21% of Israel's 8.2 million population are Arabs that has grown from only 10% in 1948. Today the make-up of the population consists of:
Jews - 75%
Arabs - 20.7%
Christians & Druze - 4.3%

Demographics of Palestine - West Bank:
Muslim - 80-85%
Christian - 1.0-2.5%
Jewish - 12-14%

Demographics of Palestine - Gaza:
Muslims - 98-99%
Christian - 0.7%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Jordan:
Muslim - 92%
Christian - 6%
Others - 2% (Minute communities of Shia Muslims and Druze)

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Lebanon:
Muslims - 54%
Christian - 40.5%
Druze - 5.5%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Syria:
Muslims - 87%
Christians - 10%
Druze - 3%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Egypt:
Muslim - 90%
Christian - 10%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Seems to me Christmas that the only State in the region that demonstrates tolerance, equality and respect for all the religions and people of the region is ISRAEL. Which blows rather a large hole in your contention that:

"The fact that both isreal and ISIS are driven by a religion-based mission makes them an inseparable subject which you peole are happy to discuss until your stupidity, bigotry and ignorance lands you in the klarts."

Now I can see the "religion-based mission" clearly in the behaviour of ISIS in any area they rumble into - that message is clear and as plain as a pikestaff - Convert or Die - those being offered the choice only being given brief seconds to comply. Any even remotely similar instances you can give demonstrating that the Israeli's have ever done anything like that? - Don't tax yourself Christmas that was a rhetorical question plainly answered by the demographics of Israel and by the demographic trends over the last 66 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:02 AM

Care to name a country in the region deliberately creating an Apartheid state

Not Israel, but Egypt denies basic citizenship right to its Bedouin population.
That is apartheid and none of you ever criticise it.
Several Arab states around Israel keep the descendants of the Palestinian refugees in camps and deny them citizenship rights.
That is apartheid and none of you ever criticise it.

No Jews no views?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:24 AM

"Care to name some democratic countries in the region? I mean apart from Israel."
Care to name a country in the region deliberately creating an Apartheid state - and using heave artillery and chemial weapons to acheive those ends?
I tend to go with Issac Newton on the difference between democracy and freedom:
"Democracy is a lamb and two wolves discussing what they are going to have for dinner.
Freedom is when the lamb takes up a gun and says, "it ain't gonna be me".
Israel is as great a threat to world peace as ISIS - the fact that they have the wherewithal to blow us all to smithereens makes them even more so, and the facts of the number of people they have just slaughtered (mainly non combatants), the homes and facilities they have destroyed and their continued aggression and land seizure showws that they have no regard for the lives and well-being of anybody who gets in their way.
The fact that both isreal and ISIS are driven by a religion-based mission makes them an inseparable subject which you peole are happy to discuss until your stupidity, bigotry and ignorance lands you in the klarts.
Live with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM

&, as you say, "once again" --

We know what the answer to that really is, don't we, Keith?

&, hohum-'once·again'-hohum


They think it isn't but it is...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:35 AM

Once again an unrelated thread has been hijacked to attack Israel and prevent discussion of the Caliphate which unprejudiced people like Obama recognise as the real threat to the region and the world.

Why do you people always and only attack Israel while ignoring the far worse behaviour of its neighbours?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:31 AM

Unlike old S Africa, all citizens of Israel, Arab and Jew, have equal rights.
The wall was built as a lesser evil, to stop the incursion of mass murdering suicide bombers and as such has been a success.
It will come down as soon as that threat is lifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 09:37 PM

It's a jewish state democratic for the jews... Kind of like the US is democratic for... wait. Oops. Never minnd.

Jordan is a kingdom but their king has been on The Daily Show, so he can't be all bad...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM

Israel democratic, Teribus? You mean, like South Africa under apartheid was democratic, for whites? Like Rhodesia under Iain Smith was democratic, for whites? That kind of democratic? Do you think the Arab second-class citizenry in Israel, that nation which prides itself on calling itself a Jewish state, or the Palestinian families divided by the apartheid wall, or the people made to wait for three days at road-blocks, would agree with your take on what makes a country "democratic"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 03:45 PM

To settle it semantically, please. It is LEBENSRAUM [=living-space]. LEBENSTRAUM would mean 'dream of life'.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 03:04 PM

"The use of of words such as lebenstraum [sic] and other Nazi era terminology and allusions in the context of Israel by the usual Jew haters is indeed offensive,"

"THE HOLOCAUST MAKES ISREAL THINK INTERNATIONAL LAW DOESN'T APPLY TO THEM
Lara Marlow in Tel Aviv
Irish Times Thursday 11th September

JOURNALIST GIDEON LEVY IS ISRAELS MOST OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OF ITS WAR ON GAZA
Gideon Levy is preaching in the wilderness. Week after week, the columnist for Haaretz news¬paper tells his compatriots what they do not want to hear: that the siege of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank are immoral and counter-pro¬ductive; that the continued sei¬zure of Palestinian land and the construction of settlements is a "criminal enterprise" intended to foil any chance for peace.
"What Israeli interest does it serve to put two million people in a cage?" Levy asks. "Tens of thousands of Palestinian chil¬dren will never forget what Isra¬el has done to them and their parents in this [July 8th-August 26th] war. That is something Is¬rael should have taken into ac¬count: another generation of ha¬tred like never before, and very justified hatred."
Levy is grateful to Amos Schocken, the third-generation owner of Haaretz, for standing by him. Some 2,000 readers cancelled subscriptions be¬cause of his July 14th column criticising Israeli air force pi¬lots who bombed Gaza. "They have never seen an enemy plane coming toward them," Levy wrote. "They never saw the whites of the eyes and the red blood of their victims . . . They are heroes battling the weakest, most helpless peo¬ple ..."
Israeli leaders portray their war on Hamas as a fight against terrorism. "Any Palestinian terrorist would rather sit in an Apache helicopter or an F16 and fly over Tel Aviv and push a button to bomb civilians," Levy replies. "Nobody would call it terrorism. Terror is always the weapon of the weak."

TREASON ACCUSATION
During the war, Levy was threatened, heckled and spat upon. Haaretz hired body¬guards to protect him. Yariv Levin, the leader of the Likud Yisrael Beiteinu coalition in the Knesset, said he should be tried for treason, which carries the death penalty in time of war.
"Nobody condemned Lev¬in," Levy says. "That tells you a lot about Israeli democracy
Irael's supporters boast that it is "the only democracy in the Mid¬dle East".
"By definition, an occupying state is not a democracy," Levy says. "Israel was always a full and liberal democracy for its Jewish citizens. It was a partial democracy for its Arab citizens, and a totalitarian tyranny in the West Bank and Gaza. In this war, I started to think it is not even a full democracy for its Jewish citizens; only for those who think like the majority."
Opinion polls showed that up to 95 per cent of Israelis sup¬ported the assault on Gaza. While attention focused on Gaza, the Israel Defence Forces killed 20 adults and three children in the West Bank, mostly during demonstrations against the war in Gaza. Israeli soldiers wounded 2,218 people, 38 per cent of them with live fire.
"In the West Bank, you see the real face of the IDF, the so-called most moral army in the world," Levy says. "You can't claim those soldiers' lives were in danger. You can't claim there were tunnels and rockets and terrorists. But look how they killed."
During the first intifada (1987-1993),_a Palestinian woman who tried to reach a materni¬ty hospital in East Jerusalem was turned round at three Israe¬li checkpoints, and gave birth in a car. "It was cold and stormy," Levy recalls. "She begged the soldiers to take the baby to hos¬pital. They refused. Eventually, she carried the baby, and it died." The incident marked a turning point for Levy. "I could believe there were bad soldiers at one checkpoint. But three? I realised their inhumanity was not an exception, but deeply rooted policy. Ninety nine per cent of Israelis do not see Pales¬tinians as human beings like themselves."
Impunity is a huge problem, Levy says. "Soldiers know that nothing will happen to them if they kill a 10-year-old child like a cockroach."
Israeli officials invariably an¬nounce they are investigating. "It's a joke," says Levy. "A way| of buying time until people for¬get. Nobody takes it seriously. I The army investigates itself?
You have to have a sense of hu¬mour."
On a national level, "Golda Meir said that after the Holo¬caust, Jews have the right to do anything they want," Levy con¬tinues. "The Holocaust makes Israelis think international law doesn't apply to them, because they are the ultimate victims of history; the only victims."
Israel killed more than 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza in Decem¬ber 2008-January 2009. "I was sure that Israel would never dare do it again," Levy says. "That the international commu¬nity would not let them do it again. But this time, it was even more brutal. Israel feels, right¬ly, that no one will stop it. They believe the only language Ar¬abs understand is the language of force. It never works."
Levy believes a "two-state so¬lution" has become impossible, because 700,000 settlers are the most powerful force in Israe¬li politics. Israel and the West Bank "are already one state with two regimes," he says. Op¬ponents of a single state for Is¬raelis and Palestinians say Isra¬el would lose its Jewish charac¬ter. "Where were you all those years when you could have saved the Jewish state by going for a two-state solution?" he asks. "We've missed that train. The struggle now should be for equal rights for Palestinians in one state."
Westerners should support the "Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions" campaign, he ar¬gues, "because there won't be a change from within, because Is¬rael will not be punished for the occupation, because in South Africa it was very effective ... It's the only way to shake Israe¬lis out of their blindness and in¬difference."

HISTORY OF ATROCITIES
When Israel drove more than 700,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1948, "There were many atrocities, some avoidable, some not," Levy says. "The problem is that 1948 never ended. Israel never changed its attitude towards Palestinian rights. Therefore, 1948 is today; 1948 is the confis¬cation of 4,000 dunums [988 acres] on August 31th; 1948 is Gaza."
Levy's parents emigrated from the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia in 1939. He has lived his entire life in Tel Aviv. "I am very attached to this place. I struggle to make it more just, unsuccessfully, but the struggle has some meaning for me."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:49 PM

Islamic fundamentalism is even more of a danger to Russia, than it is to America.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:45 PM

"That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq,"

Although I would like to see the decapitators wiped out, this is a very dangerous course for us all.
Mr Obama could sanction bombing of president Assads forces as well as IS, bringing us into another confrontation with Russia.

Russia backed Assad because he was prepared to stand up to the Islamist Militias,   the FSA was simply a cover or at best "useful idiots" for the extremists.
If the West removes Assad under cover of an attack on the Islamists, the results could be grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:53 AM

""I have made it clear that we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq," - Barack Obama: 10-09-2014

No safe haven.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 09:06 AM

The use of of words such as lebenstraum [sic] and other Nazi era terminology and allusions in the context of Israel by the usual Jew haters is indeed offensive, it is also a libel and marks the users for what they are.

Teribus is 100% correct in stating that there is no such thing as the 1967 borders, what there is is the so called "Green line" which is the demarcation line set out in the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and its neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. It is also used to mark the line between Israel and the territories captured in the Six-Day War, including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula.

The original armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question." From Wiki.

The territorial boundary or border will be determined by negotiation when the Palestinians accept a two state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 08:56 AM

Posted in haste.
I thought he was someone still being held.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 06:47 AM

Can anyone believe or explain why BBC has done this?!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29120308

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM

Your typical hysterical rant in response there I see Christmas. Do you have them stored? You should it would save you a great deal of time and effort.

Care to name some democratic countries in the region? I mean apart from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:34 AM

"And significantly not a single word of outright condemnation either Christmas"
As far as \I am concerned, describing these people as extremist murderous nutters is outright enough for me
You crowd hape openly supported Israeli terrorism, the use of chemiccal weapons and heavy artillery on civilians, you have defended Israel's role in facilitating the massacre of three and a half thousand unarmed refugees.... and you have done so using the argument that the Palestinian people have no right to the land they have occupied for thousands of years.
I recently posted a cutting describing the effects some of the weapons have had on people - particularly children - their flesh turned to jelly, new corpses mummified - not a peep from you or yours.
ISIS has been the product of inaction on the part of the West - that is the subject that needs to be discussed - our Government's part in the creation of a maniacal religion-driven force that threatens world peace.
You have chosen to discuss ISIS as a means of attacking Muslims and their religion as a whole - that is why you don't get any takers to your campaign - not because anybody supports ISIS but because we don't want to be part of your Islamophobic shit.
Of course these people are dangerous - so is Israel - even more so because it has the support of powers like America, who are just as capable of using terrorism to fulfill their own ends
What also makes Israel a greater threat is that even though it is ruled by an extremist right-wing regime, it is now being claimed that the majority of Israelis don't believe it to be right-wing enough and what has just happened in Gaza didn't go far enough - that is what puts the shits up me far more than the potential threat to Britain and the West from ISIS.   
To top all this - Israel has nuclear weapons - if it hadn't been for an Israeli hero Mordechai Vanunu, we would be totally unaware of this fact - see below.
You people have taken the side of a killer terrorist regime with a nuclear weapon and you have the gall to accuse us of taking sides by not speaking out loud enough against a bunch of nutters little different from the extremists you shout for and a damn sight more dangerous
What are you people on?
Jim Carroll      

"Vanunu spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 in solitary confinement. Released from prison in 2004, he became subject to a broad array of restrictions on his speech and movement. Since then he has been arrested several times for violations of those restrictions, including giving various interviews to foreign journalists and attempting to leave Israel. He says he suffered "cruel and barbaric treatment" at the hands of Israeli authorities while imprisoned, and suggests that his treatment would have been different if he had not converted to Christianity from Judaism.[6]
In 2007, Vanunu was sentenced to six months in prison for violating terms of his parole. The sentence was considered unusual even by the prosecution who expected a suspended sentence. In response, Amnesty International issued a press release on 2 July 2007, stating that "The organisation considers Mordechai Vanunu to be a prisoner of conscience and calls for his immediate and unconditional release."[7] In May 2010, Vanunu was arrested and sentenced to three months in jail on a charge that he met foreigners in violation of conditions of his 2004 release from jail."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:22 AM

Richard, these exchanges always start with an attack on Israel.
Those responsible never attack any other groups in the same way.
When others do, they raise the issue of Israel anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 02:26 AM

"I have never uttered a word of support for what they do" - Christmas

And significantly not a single word of outright condemnation either Christmas

"I have placed the blame for the them having the power that they have where t belongs" - Christmas

You apparently think that the fault is OURS - Well Christmas old son IT AIN'T

Christmas if you cannot answer a simple and direct question why not just state that? The answer of course to my question relating to the   territorial gains (Taking over the homes of Gazans) you claim has happened is that there have been none. The borders of GAZA have remained the same since the unilateral and complete withdrawal of the Israelis in 2005 - That by the way Christmas is a fact - and if those in Gaza want the borders open and the blockade lifted then all they have to do is stop attacking Israel - It really is THAT SIMPLE.

No apartheid state - not now, not in the past and not in the future - Same cannot be said for those who "govern" the Caliphate - but no Jews so no news eh Christmas?

You seem to have a penchant for living in the past Christmas - fancy in 2014 quoting alleged past co-operation between Israel and South Africa which ended 25 years ago as being relevant today? I'd call that idiotic.

"You and a small coterie defend Israel. Thus there is something to argue about." - Richard Bridge

You deny Israel the right of self-defence?

"Nobody is defending IS etc so there is nothing to shout about there." - Richard Bridge

Nobody is condemning them either are they Richard, condemnation on this forum is reserved for the big,bad west and for Israel - all others irrespective of the atrocities they commit are given a free ride.

"Some of you try to smear Islam by association and then there is something to shout about. Simple." - Richard Bridge

What IS do is done in the name of Islam Richard so it is IS who besmirches the name of Islam - seen the latest IS flag burning craze amongst moderate Muslims Richard?

"some career menschen seem to want to defend Israel's claim to lebensraum. So there is a need to shout at them." - Richard Bridge

I find your use of the word "lebenstraum" rather offensive but that was your deliberate intent wasn't it? But there again Richard you have never lived in a small country surrounded by it's enemies all calling for and threatening your annihilation. A small country that for the last nine years has been subjected to a barrage of thousands of projectiles and rockets aimed indiscriminately at sections of your civilian population - which is why you witter on about "Israel's claim to lebenstraum" - I personally would call it Israel's right of self-defence. I would sincerely hope that if I lived in Dover and the French launched as much as one single missile at the community in which I lived that the British Government would do something about it - wouldn't you? But we are not talking about one single missile here Richard are we? We are talking about thousands launched over a protracted period - so get your head out of your arse and accept that if Israel is attacked it is perfectly justified in striking back - that is called self-defence.

But to get back to this "lebenstraum" thing of yours. There happens to be an enormous flaw in your argument. I previously asked Christmas to show me any map of what the Palestine Authority/Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad perceived as being the borders for this "Two State" solution which they say they are fighting for. All I got from Christmas was "Fuck the maps". I now challenge you to come up with a map that shows what the Arabs of Palestine say would be "their" country. I won't hold out any hope of ever seeing one because the map does not exist because they have no interest whatsoever in a two state solution.

Simply put, because the Arabs of Palestine rejected the UN's offer in 1947 there are no recognised borders. The Arabs of Palestine were given their "homeland" for their exclusive use in 1923 (77% of the Mandate of Palestine) they rejected the UN's proposal in 1947 because they wanted more, and after their humiliating defeat in 1967 they then wanted it all - that remains as being the case today.

By the way Richard if you doubt me on there being "no borders" just read through all the past ceasefires brokered by the UN and broken by the Arabs and you will find common to all that the ceasefires are agreed with the exception of them constituting in any way acceptance of borders. So the next time you hear any Palestinian spokesperson talking about 1967 borders just remember that no such border exists to define any state of Israel or any State of Palestine. Besides the 1967 borders defined borders between Israel, Egypt + Egyptian occupied Palestine, Jordan + Jordanian occupied Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. And should there ever be a lasting agreement, the one thing that you will be able to guarantee will be that Israel will be defined by borders she can defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 10:20 PM

It is dealing with the arguments presented. You and a small coterie defend Israel. Thus there is something to argue about. Nobody is defending IS etc so there is nothing to shout about there. Some of you try to smear Islam by association and then there is something to shout about. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:16 PM

No one is supporting them, but they are not subject to endless attack like Israel is.
Neither are neighbours like Syria, Egypt and Hamas.
Why the bias?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:03 PM

I'm a bit puzzled about the Xtian fundie god-botherers here. Is anyone defending IS or Boko Haram or Al-Shabbab? So no need to shout at people who are not here. A lot of the Xtian fundie god-botherers, and some career menschen seem to want to defend Israel's claim to lebensraum. So there is a need to shout at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM

It would be so nice to have the remotest idea of what old uno-who is on about re my teapot & my newsagent; anyone any idea? assuming anybody cares! But, please sir, he's trying to wind me up again and he's a hobbible big BULLY trying to wind poor little me up all the time when he knows how I hate being wound up it makes me all tense and sad and, er, well - wound up, so don't let him do it any more please sir or I'll THCWEAM the forum down. I will. I can....

aaaaaarrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!

☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM

I just asked why you endlessly and only criticise Israel while ignoring greater evil all around.

You don't realise what you've finally admitted, do you, Keith? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM

Michael claims to have a teapot for that matter, but like his brain, the output has an important element missing.

I doubt my academic credentials help me in these threads Michael. I doubt your posts helps the threads for that matter.

Give my regards to your newsagent eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:47 AM

You do not rage against IS atrocities but endlessly attack Israel, even on unrelated threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:34 AM

"Jim, you have not attacked IS behaviour as you have Israel even on this thread!"
I have made my view of ISIS clear - an extremist, terrorist organisation.
I have never uttered a word of support for what they do, I have placed the blame for the them having the power that they have where t belongs
Unlike you, I do not differentiate between one form of religion inspired terrorism - I recognise it for what it is - extreme terrorism - all the same.
"You only rage about them if you think you can blame Israel."
Fuck off Keith.
"what territorial gains in Gaza have been made by the Israelis?"
Israel has just scuppered the possibility of a two state solution with its announcement of the seizure of one thousand acres of land for settlements
Israel have been systematically been driving Be#douins off their lands with chemical weapons and water cannons in order to bulid settlements
Israel is in the process of becoming an apartheid state - no surprise that they tried to sell nuclear weapons to Apartheid South Africa
How about responding to some of those facts me little chocolate soldier?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM

Jim, you have not attacked IS behaviour as you have Israel even on this thread!
Massacres.
You only rage about them if you think you can blame Israel.
Beheadings.
Mass Executions.
Enslavement of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 07:49 AM

"Stop fighting, stop threatening Israel with annihilation and there will be peaceful co-existence and prosperity for all in the region." - Teribus

"Surrender and allow Israel to continue to take over or destroy the homes of Gazans and slaughter everyone who gets in the way of their objective of setting up an apartheid state appears to be what you are trying to say" - Christmas

Since 2005 and Israel's forced eviction of Israelis from Gaza what territorial gains in Gaza have been made by the Israelis?

What apartheid state is being set up and where? The civil rights and privileges of all are protected inside Israel's borders - the same cannot be said for those living under Hamas rule in Gaza

Since signing the Camp David Agreement with Egypt what territorial gains at the expense of the Egyptians have the Israelis made?

"I have not remained silent abut the Caliphate - on the contrary - I have directly attributed their rise to prominence to the West's refusal to help the Arab nations to modernise and to bring some semblance of democracy to their countries." - Christmas

And this is the West's responsibility how exactly? Who was responsible for helping us here in the big, bad, capitalist, "West" to modernise and become democratic? Because you see Christmas if all that was down to self help then the same applies to those Arab nations you are wittering on about, exactly as it was up to those Israelis - Big difference was that while the Israelis managed it quite successfully, the Arabs under leaders such as Tosser Arafat and his Uncle didn't primarily because those leaders were too damned busy getting rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:07 AM

"Jim, this thread is about the Caliphate, so why post attacks on Israel while remaining silent about the horrific atrocities committed by the Caliphate?"
I have not remained silent abut the Caliphate - on the contrary - I have directly attributed their rise to prominence to the West's refusal to help the Arab nations to modernise and to bring some semblance of democracy to their countries.
You, on the other hand, have supported the despots of these countries by opposing the idea that it is wrong to sell them weapons - even to the extent of suggesting that the worst of them, Assad, be supplied with weapons to suppress attempts at modernisation - a view you have continued to put forward.
"while ignoring greater evil all around." There is no greater evil than a religion inspired terrorist regime with nuclear capability and a will to expand.
"Convince us it is not simply because there are no Jews in the Caliphate."
This is not about "Jews" you Antisemitic shitbag - it is about the behaviour of a religion-inspired fascist state with the power to cause this planet to be blown to dust.
Those who hide behind a people who lost millions of their number to a regime not unsimilar to those ruling Israel at the present time by blaming the "Jews" for Israeli atrocities are scum, as are those who defend them.      
"Stop fighting, stop threatening Israel with annihilation and there will be peaceful co-existence and prosperity for all in the region."
Surrender and allow Israel to continue to take over or destroy the homes of Gazans and slaughter everyone who gets in the way of their objective of setting up an apartheid state appears to be what you are trying to say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 08:23 PM

Incredible shrinking Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 07:13 PM

Meanwhile - "Caliphate" - all theocracies are evil. Oh, that also goes for the stealth theocracy in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood pretended to be a civil government while planning not ethnic but religious cleansing. Army bad, but better than god-botherers.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 07:10 PM

The word "Palestine" is wrong at this link, but it clearly shows the continuing land grab by Israel. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=historical+Israel+borders&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=677&tbm=isch&imgil=vCrgkPz-Vk73CM%253A%253BE4vXUeulg7itxM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.juancole.com%25252F2010%25252F03%25252Fmap-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html&source=iu&fir=vCrgkPz-Vk73CM%253A%252CE4vXUeulg7itxM%252C_&usg=__vC2REyIxjMWz-lTXeMoncsVH8gI%3D&sa=X&ei=6zYOVKGDApDraJaYgdAL&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=vCrgkPz-Vk73CM%253A%3BE4vXUeulg7itxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.juancole.com%252Fimages-ext%252F2010%252F03%252Fmap-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.juancole.com%252F2010%252F03%252Fmap-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html%3B809%3B539

More to follow

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 12:06 PM

Keith, don't feed that potty-mouthed irrational little booby who calls himself Musket. He's like the little boy in the Duchess's song in Alice -- he only does it to annoy because he knows it teases. Just ignore his posts: don't even read them; I don't. Occasionally a word or two might obtrude as I scroll thru, but in general his hobby of abusing me is harmless AFAIAC, as his insults don't impinge. Or every now & then, maybe every 15th or so, I might read one just out of curiosity to see if it's still at it. I did notice somewhere back that he asseverated that I was getting senile. That from him; well har-har-har, that's the best laugh I've had for a while!

He claims to have a PhD but likes to present himself as ignorant as piggi-pooze. Wow, there is rational!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 11:44 AM

Avoiding the question.
I just asked why you endlessly and only criticise Israel while ignoring greater evil all around.
Even on threads not about Israel, like this one.

So, why do you do it?

Why did Jim ignore all the Irish Times reports on the Caliphate, but paste in one about Israel ?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 11:00 AM

I'm criticising you at this point.

And your mates.