BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

'"By ponting the finger, as you have done, "But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas" you have obviously chosen your side by absolving Israel in any of this - your prerogative.'
.,.
Genuinely can't see how anyone can interpret that as my having 'chosen my side' or 'absolved' anyone of anything. I was referring, not to the problem as a whole, as to which I have nothing to contribute at present, but simply to the fact that the solution, that Jim kept asserting was the only one, was impossible of achievement. Instead of replying to this point, he replies in typical Carrolliian fashion with unsustained [and unsustainable becoz not the case] accusations of bad faith on my part.

I don't know how many times I have to say that Mr Carroll seems sometimes to be a permanent brick wall against which I am getting fed up with knocking my head. Think I'll give up and find a new, less stressful and more worthwhile, hobby: pulling my beard out hair by hair, perhaps...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM

"That is completely untrue."
Sure it is - "Up Israel" and "Onward Christian Soldiers" - same mixture as before
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM

UN requirements to back off.
Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM

Tell all sides then, including the rather transparent Israeli flouting of UN requirements to back off. Neither side trust the other. Whilst one side has it's western apologists, they never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

Israel has made it perfectly clear that it is not interested in any peace deal that doesn't include them continuing to occupy and expand, and continue to allow the to treat non-Jews in the territory as lesser mortals.

That is completely untrue.
All Israel seeks is an end to the bombardment of its people from Gaza.
Gaza could be prosperous and stable if it would only call off its war.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

"vain repetitions of the impossible"
If peace is impossible, discussing the subject is a waste of time - we may as well sit on our hands and send flowers when the time comes- wonder if we can book tickets for the show!
By ponting the finger, as you have done, "But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas" you have obviously chosen your side by absolving Israel in any of this - your prerogative.
Israel has made it perfectly clear that it is not interested in any peace deal that doesn't include them continuing to occupy and expand, and continue to allow the to treat non-Jews in the territory as lesser mortals.
It deliberately sabotaged the last round of talks to the extent that eve n their strongest supporters, the U.S., drew back.
Peace talks as before are obviously a waste of time; without American blanket support and with full U.N. participation, things could be different - otherwise what - another Syria, where the world stands by and does nothing about the butchery until it has escalated into something else?
At the moment, we are getting nothing from Israel but belligerence and vengeance, from Gaza, fatalistic despair and 'spitting fish'
We both know how far things can go when the world stands by and does nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:00 AM

Again, Jim -- I haven't got any 'alternatives'; but I fail to see why you think that simple fact adds any validity to your vain repetitions of the impossible.

I will just add that the day Hamas comes to the conference table I promise I will give you a nice red apple.

Till then, by all means go on saying at regular intervals that "negotiation is the only solution - hey ho for the conference table" like some sort of demented parrot if that's what turns you on. Does me no harm -- quite amusing and entertaining, in fact. But what possible satisfaction you are getting from this endless pointless rehearsal of something that's as likely to happen as "Next July we collide with Mars"*, I really cannot conceive.

~M~

*From 'Did You Ever', Cole Porter, from film High Society, 1956. Sung by Crosby & Sinatra -- one of their few collaborations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM

"If you lie once more...."
Give him a break Muskie - the only defence these people have for Israeli terrorism is lying, and wouldn't life be dull and boring without them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM

Isn't it nice here? Discussing the circumstances under which some people support murdering innocent civilians, including children.

What were the children doing on the beach? THEY WERE FUCKING PLAYING! Just like any children would. After all, there are no military installations on the beach so only terrorists would choose to bomb it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:19 AM

Beardedbruce. If you lie once more, saying I support the terrorist Hamas wing, I will ask searching questions about you and child porn.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM

"But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas ~"
No Mike - you tell us your alternatives - after all, your Christian humanist mate has told us how it is perfectly legal to carpet bomb the Palestinians into the Stone age.
As you say, it's not my job to come up with solutions, just to express my opinions on what should happen and what is happening in my name.
Despite Israel's serial aggressive behaviour at the conference table, you and braindead and Terry-the-Wannabe-Trooper take sides and point fingers, blaming 'the enemy', you at least have paid lip-service to Israel's betrayal of the Jewish people, yet continue to back their genocidal behaviour by blaming only 'the other side'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM

"I don't give a shit what religion colour or taste in ties is, they are all human beings - which is why I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer." - Christmas

Terrific Christmas - care to tell us how you are going to get Hamas to that table? Considering that:

1: The political wing of Hamas has got absolutely no control over its armed militants or any allied group working in their midst.

2: That the only "accommodation" that will satisfy Hamas is the complete and utter destruction of the State of Israel

I would dearly love to hear how you, Christmas, would "negotiate" as part of the Israeli delegation once sat round that table in the full knowledge that those sitting opposite you have not once complied with anything they have previously solemnly sworn to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:52 AM

The URL for the Telegraph article I quote above -- (please, Jim, in justice, do read it, even if the idea of reading from such a source is anathema to you. It really is quite a well-informed piece, at least worth any fair-minded person's consideration)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100280272/its-time-to-bust-the-israeli-blockade-led-to-hamas-rockets-myth/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM

"I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer.
.,,.
So you never tire of saying, Jim.

But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas ~~~
'...the reply from the Hamas bomb-making chief Mohammed Deif was instant. On the website of the Izz-al Din Qassam Brigades he declared: "I thank Allah the exalted for his support in the Jihad of our people. I ask for your assistance to our jihad… We shall not rest until our entire holy land is liberated … To the Zionists we promise that tomorrow all of Palestine will become hell for you…"...
'Hamas rejects all possible compromise with Israel, and all possibility of a negotiated peace in the following terms: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours."
                                    Daily Telegraph 16 Jul 14'

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

BB, that is sick, and you need help.

Well, SRS, that's hardly his worst effort, and he could be helped right off the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:02 PM

If you are a civilian and you know they are bombing you why are you at the beach?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM

BB is quoting from the International Committee of the Red Cross Greg.
The English is completely comprehensible to anyone with a basic education and a modicum of intelligence.
Perhaps that is your problem Greg.

The link was just given in my post.
Do you need help in using it Greg dear?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:39 PM

That sounds contorted enough to be original Bruce bullshit! Now lets see if he can render that in comprehensible English.

Unless its the usual un-attributed C&P.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM

In areas where civilians are concentrated, clearly-separated military objectives should n ot be treated as a single military objective. Unless circumstances do not permit it, each party to the conflict shall give an effective advance warning prior to an attack which may affect the civilian population.

In some cases, civilians and prisoners are used as human shields to protect military objectives from attack. In others, the red cross or the red crescent emblem is used to mislead the enemy and conduct military actions. Simulation of protected status by using the red cross, the red crescent, UN or other protective emblems are considered as acts of perfidy, amounting to a grave breach of humanitarian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Oh, good, FA - then lets bomb the living crap out of those civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:48 PM

Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.

Wrong Musket.
Civilians must not be targeted, but with certain provisos (warnings etc.), military targets may be attacked even if civilian casualties are likely.
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jpzn.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has demanded "full respect for the sanctity of its premises" after discovering 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip.

The organisation said it "strongly condemned" those responsible for placing weapons inside the building, in what it described as a "flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law".

The incident is the first of its kind in Gaza, the group added, and comes as a five-hour humanitarian ceasefire expired. The end was marked by renewed cross-border fighting, as officials dismissed reports of a new truce agreement.

The UNRWA said: "This incident endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA's vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

"Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.
"

YOU mean EXCEPT when the civilians are Israelis.

At least that is what you seem to be saying, supporting the Hamas War Crimes and declaring they the legal response by the Israelis is a war crime because the Gaza Government, under Hamas, discourages any attempt to move civilians out of attack zones, and specifically put legitimate military targets so as to maximize the Palestinian civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:31 PM

Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.

It was when Bomber Harris and Churchill did it too, but victors dictate victory.

Aiming at schools, hospitals, residential areas and beaches full of playing children. As much as Geneva isn't my favourite city, I don't think even they would wish to be associated with Israel's response to the response to their oppression of neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM


Keith talks of legal bombing of civilians. I know he has no idea of military matters, but even a wannabe soldier might cringe at that..

(Sigh)
You expose your ignorance yet again.


Under the Geneva Conventions, as well as customary international law, if
a military objective, such as a missile launcher or weapons stockpile, is
placed in the heart of a civilian area, it does not cease being a lawful
military objective. The primary responsibility for civilian causalities arising
from the 'shielding' lies with the party that deliberately placed civilians at
risk.



International law also requires that any military operation be 'proportionate'
in the sense that expected collateral damage to civilians and civilian
objects must not be excessive in relation to the military advantage
anticipated. This is a complex and difficult calculation and international law
relies on the best determination of the commander in the field in the heat
of the conflict to weigh all relevant considerations, including the security of
his own forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

"every single individual concerned is the only answer."
Whoops - far too idealistic and unobtainable - should have written,
"will tace into consideration the views and interests of all sides in this dispute.
Can't please all of the people all of the time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

-- "statistics" (interesting choice of word) --

Well you're the one who keeps bringing up the numbers, Jim, I just used the appropriate term for that type of number. I expect you, and those who agree with you, will keep bring up statistics as long as these threads last.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"that one Israeli had been killed"
Whoops - missed that one - that changes things completely!!
No - it doesn't make me feel better - as far as I am concerned, this is about dead people, not "statistics" (interesting choice of word) and I don't give a shit what religion colour or taste in ties is, they are all human beings - which is why I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer.
"ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy"
I'm sure the Palestinian dead has fallen far short of your obvious wishes Brucie, but the Israelis are doing their best - don't lose hope just yet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

Having read JIM"S posts, HE is the one who is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:22 AM

BeardedBruce said A false statement, but I am sure that ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy.

BB, that is sick, and you need help.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

{Sigh} As we are debating with people of limited intelligence, it is sometimes reasonable to point out what you put rather than expect understanding...

If you don't they hilariously waffle on as if you said it at face value. The others think you might have said something or have a view. That's the problem with internet chat, you can't see me waving wanker signs at you whilst taking the piss.

Beardedbruce, PooBad, Keith, Michael etc love to judge people as being Hamas if they are Palestinian. I take the piss out of this by pointing out that a bloke called Abraham can't be objective. Ask your carer to look up satire in her dictionary.

Right.

Keith talks of legal bombing of civilians. I know he has no idea of military matters, but even a wannabe soldier might cringe at that..

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM

"So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none."

Jesus, Jim, since you're so hung up on death statistics, let's get it right! From various news sources, one being CNN, I kept hearing, yesterday, that one Israeli had been killed. Does that make you feel better, sir?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

"So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none."

A false statement, but I am sure that ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

Giving 100,000 non-combatant civilians notice of a lethal bombardment of their homes, irrespective of age, health, mobility or alternative shelter is is murder, plain and simple.
It has already been suggested as a massive war crime, should it take place - the fact that such an act is even being considered is an indication of the depravity of such an act, whether it takes place or not.
A letter form the Palestinian Ambassador, to the Irish Times in response to one by the Israeli Ambassador defending such an act points out that while Israel has places of shelter for its people, Gaza has none.
So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none.
Murder, plain and simple
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:53 AM

Please do not get me wrong, from my last post. I am not taking sides on tgis issue, not attempting to target anyone here.So, no need to either blast me, nor harbour resentment to be used in a future thread response on another unrelated topic.

My perspective on dumb statements:

We all say dumb things on occasion, (I am in this group)and more likely so in the heat of an emotional discussion. When we do so, it "looks better on us" when we admit it was so and everyone can then move on to more fruitful discussion. On the other perspective, there comes a time to move on from identifying and dwelling a dumb statement. Others likely noticed it-dwelling on it just reflects on you as being argumentative, not reinforcing the dumb statement itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

By the way, nice of the Israelis to give notice. A trick they learned from The IRA.

You would prefer them no to??
You are very ignorant of these issues Musket.
The requirement to give adequate warning before an attack that might endanger civilians is written into international law.
Israel seeks to comply.
Hamas flouts it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

Not according to Musket, who even GregF calls an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Some folks say that views on the Israel-Hamas issue has nothing to do with anyone having anti-jewish vuews.
Then there us a suggestion that news from someone with a Jewish sounding name is suspect as being biased, or grounds alone for it not being reliable?

Puzzling?

Should, or can, we have it both ways?

Like with many folks worldwide, because of name changes, history, sharing of names worldwide etc., it would be an inexact exercise to guess at ones ethnic or religious background, or political beliefs, from their names alone.


Resources 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM

Keep going beardbruce. All the sympathisers of Israeli terrorism on this and the other thread have failed to see the irony.

Which proves my point...

By the way, nice of the Israelis to give notice. A trick they learned from The IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

That IS what you are saying, isn't it?

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

So, Musket,

We will now discount ALL statements and reports from those with either Jewish OR Arab sounding names, regardless of the factual basis that they present.


That IS what you are saying, isn't it? Or is it JUST statements by those with Jewish sounding names that should be ignored?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:48 AM

So.. This objective observer with a Jewish sounding name...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

The Abraham post said it all. Not partial (says someone not partial to the petty bickering that so amused Data, said Tom wholesomely).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM

Wanted Poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:11 PM

"So.. This objective observer called Abraham......."
Is there a point to your unfinished post? Or are you really just trying to get us to finish your thought. Do you have anything to factually refute what was posted? Guess not, or you would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:09 PM

Musket,

We have quoted the Hamas Charter from the Hamas website. If you do not care to accept something that THEY state, I see no reason to even bother discussing anything with you- You obviously are not open to facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

So.. This objective observer called Abraham.......

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Hamas is not a political organization in the normal sense of the term.

They were not formed to provide competent leadership over their people.

They were formed to wage jihad on Israel and kill Jews.


"According to Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, 'The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day Mein Kampf.' According to the charter, Jewish people 'have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world.' The charter claims that the Jews deserve God's/Allah's enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets. 'The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

Sorry Mike - I asked who he was referring to when he said, "let them get on with it" - the only reply I received was a typo correction.
This is part of a long-running diatribe from this unpleasant individual - apart from attacks on long-dead parents, he even showed us all his gun one time to prove his manhood - a real piece of work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM

OK Jim -- you know I agree substantially, esp such as 'If one side is wrong, both are.' But you know my passion for accuracy; and I still think you were mistaken in accusing him of calling all of them by that particular designation when it was perfectly clear that he had only meant a particular, specific, part of the demographic. I still don't know quite what you meant by that "all" whom you accused him of denouncing but it's probably not worth your while explicating. Meanwhile I am not engaging further in this particular exchange; it was only that particular [what seemed to me] unwarranted accusation I was engaging with.

Best

~M~