What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:03 PM

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:53 AM

You fellers can sure dish it out, but you seem to have trouble taking it
Jim Carroll

that's cos you lie about us and over simplify. i never saw joe heaney, or several others, i should have. i became a professional singer out of financial necessity. playing anything a jobbing musician had to to make living. i learned to respect songwriters whose work put food on the table. when i wasn't working in pubs - i visited my fair share of folk clubs, but i admit not as many as i perhaps should have.

i did buy joe's double album from a fine singer/songwriter called Pete Coe, who carries round albums by joe and others like him for people who might be interested.

Joe of couse used to sing some songs in Irish. perhaps he did this at a Clancy's concert. they were a very public face of folk music type act. i never saw them. but i remember Ian Campbell saying they had this thing, where every night they used to run on stage and and throw aside a stool that was put there every night for them to throw aside, in a lets get down to business sort of gesture.

At our song club in the Vernon, Derby we had a singer who regularly sang in Gaelic. we all listened respectfully - though admittedly without a great deal of comprehension to hear him do his three songs. Hugh Lamont. we also listened to every other sort of music.

you really are talking bollocks about the English folkscene - we aren't a hard nosed gangs of 1950's concert goers who next week will be listening to MJQ, and expect exactly whats on the ticket.

I on the other hand exaggerate not a jot when i describe the reaction oF your mates at the Grey Cock folk club in Birminghan and their arrogance and unfriendliness - I will never forget it."
that is what Al said, he does appear to like some traditional songs and singers [bob lewis] he has a problem with some people at one club
I had a problem with Ewan MacColl, so decided not to go to the singers club, I still rate him as a song writer and singer.
I found another club in London[ even though i had no problem getting on to sing] very cliquey and unfriendly, the point is that cliqueyness and unfriendliness can occur whether it is a contemporary or a trad club

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 11:03 AM

I find this questioning of whether there is a tradition, odd, to say the least.
We have a large body of songs collected by Sharp and his contemporaries, mainly from the agricultural working people.
In the 1950s, we got the same songs, in widely differing versions collected from the same social group of people by the BBC
One of the great revelations to us is finding the same group of songs in the rural west of Ireland - Lord Lovel, Lord Bateman, Katherine Jafferay, The Suffolk Miracle, The Outlandish Knight were some of the ballads; Banks of Sweet Dundee, The Grey Mare (Young Roger Esquire), The False Lover, Farmer and the Grocer..... a couple of months ago we took down a version of The Girl with a Box on Her Head from a ninety odd year old man.... all probably originating in Britain, but all claimed to have been in the family for centuries.
The biggest surprise was the huge repertoire of anonymous local songs made about everyday life here in the West - land politics, shipwrecks, drinking bouts, murders.... right through to a lament for when a beloved local priest was moved on to another parish.
If these aren't 'folk songs', they are convincing enough fakes to have me fooled
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 10:08 AM

Has anybody shown that they are Phil - I've yet to come across convincing evidence if they have?

Not as far as I know - perhaps I should have said "neither Harker nor anyone else has shown". (Steve G will probably have a view.)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM

or maybe a newish descriptive phrase floating around the internet...

"Fauxk Songs".....?????

eg.. Fauxk

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 08:07 AM

"But what Harker didn't show (although you'd never know it from the way he writes) is that all - or even most - of the accepted traditional songs were actually 'fakesong'."
Has anybody shown that they are Phil - I've yet to come across convincing evidence if they have?
I may have missed out on Lakeman - I heard some of his songs a few time, and decided that there was nothing of interest for me.
Just checked half a dozen of his offerings on U-tube and find nothing different
Still sounds like a loud, non-narrative music based on pop sounds - a far cry from the articulate, audible storytelling or lyrical structure that constitutes folk-song as I know it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 07:49 AM

Here are some definitions that people have suggested (bet you didn't know that was what you were doing).

A "folk song" is...

- any song sung in a folk club
- any song sung by a folk singer & accepted by a folk audience
- any song widely sung in folk clubs & taken up on the folk scene
- any traditional song, plus new songs in traditional idioms
- any traditional song but no newly-composed songs, unless they are taken up by ordinary people in the way that traditional songs were

I think an awful lot of confusion - and heat - has been generated by people applying the word 'folk' to the performer and starting from there. If somebody thinks of himself as a folk singer - & gets bookings from other people who also think he's a folk singer - it's understandable that that person would be a bit narked to be told that little or none of what he's singing is actually 'folk'.

If you get away from the idea that the adjective 'folk' applies to the singer - and apply it to individual songs - then the problem goes away. So Martin Carthy's a singer, Ewan MacColl was a singer, Seth Lakeman's a singer. Carthy sings mostly folk songs; MacColl sang folk songs and his own songs, most of which were in a folk idiom; Lakeman sings some folk songs and a lot of his own, some of them in a folk idiom.

This is assuming that there's something about the song itself which makes it 'folk' - as distinct from, say, 'rugby club songs' or 'Boy Scout songs', which are whatever songs are actually being sung by rugby players or Boy Scouts. Admittedly, there are 'folk club songs', or standards as they'd be called in the jazz world: songs you'll never hear on the radio but can be sure of hearing in any folk club if you wait long enough - "No Man's Land", "Beeswing", "Sally free and easy", "Farewell to the gold"...

As for what it is that makes a folk song a folk song, in one word: origin. Not the ultimate origin but the last stop, as it were, before it enters the repertoire of professionals and hobbyists. I'd suggest that folk songs are songs that have been collected from people who didn't know where they came from; songs that people sing for fun, round the fire or while they're working*. Which means that folk song exists mainly in the past tense - singing songs in that way isn't something people do much any more. A new song would become a folk song if it got away from its composer and lived on in that way, but it's not likely to happen now.

I think this is what most of the collectors would have understood by 'folk song', however imperfect some of their collecting practice was*. But I know a lot of people really don't like using the word 'folk' as restrictively as this, so I don't suppose there's much chance of going back to it.

*Dave Harker showed that some of what we now consider the traditional repertoire probably wasn't sung like this, but was faked up by collectors or their contributors. (Not that he was the first to go down this road; Robert Chambers cast doubt on several of the big ballads, including Sir Patrick Spens, as early as 1849.) But what Harker didn't show (although you'd never know it from the way he writes) is that all - or even most - of the accepted traditional songs were actually 'fakesong'.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 05:41 AM

Developing the point picked up above by Musket, as to my use of the concept of "the traditional idiom" in relation to Seth Lakeman:-

The five songwriters I had mentioned in that Cambridge Guide entry were all ones who had a firm background of experience as singers of traditional song; so that their own compositions were inevitably influenced by this, and fitted thematically and stylistically into the sort of music we are engaged with here. Other singer-songwriters "adopted" by 'the Folk Scene' [to employ a useful idiom which I am sure will make the necessary communication as to my meaning to anyone reading posts on this forum] might not have had this background or experience, and so would IMO be less qualified to have their work accepted in the terms implied by the title and topic of this thread.

I think this an essential distinction to be observed in seeking to answer the question which forms the thread title.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 04:45 AM

Well said Jim.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 04:13 AM

"I suppose his jeans end south of his belly button eh?"
A number of times while we were collecting in London, we were asked to bring some of the singers we met to various clubs - we were able to do so on several occasions, with happy results.
On the night we went with Mikeen McCarthy to the Musical Traditions Club, his reception was tremendous - someone was good enough to write the evening up in Dance and Song - a memorable night.
On request, we took Mikeen to The national Folk Festival in Sutton Bonnington - still have the recordings of some of the sessions with Mikeen, Kevin and Ellen Mitchell and Packie Manus Byrne - folk song at its best.
Another night in the basement of Cecil Sharp House, we had Mikeen with two musician friends, piper/concertina player, Tom McCarthy and fiddle player, Fergus McTeggart, who entranced a roomful of people for a couple of hours with song, stories, music and reminiscences of playing back home - memorable, to say the least, truly magic nights.
Each time we asked someone who was generous to give us the benefit of their time and experience, we had to decide on who we would take along, whether they would cope in front of large audiences, or handle lengthy periods of playing and singing in an environment thy were unused to.
We were very lucky with the audiences that turned up - true lovers of folk song and music, who realised the value of what was on offer and, on the few occasions necessary, were happy to overlook the problems that some of the performers faced at being in unfamiliar territory, or performing songs they hadn't sung for generations - or simply being not as young as they were - past their prime.
Those were the days when the revival was made up of enough folk song lovers to be worth making the effort for.
If the contributions of you pair are anything to go by - those days are now long gone.
What we have here is, as far as I'm concerned, unacceptable loutish behaviour from someone who apparently dislikes folk song and is prepared to take out his dislike on elderly, now dead singers who were generous enough to give us our repertoire - Yob Folk just about sums it up.
Most of the old crowd are no longer with us, and even when they were around, it would have been unlikely that they would have had access to forums like this - but their relatives and descendants do.
I wonder how they would react to seeing members of their family referred to in the loutish way the neanderthal contingency of the revival have done on this discussion!      
I know of at least one decedent of one of the old 'tit-trouser brigade' who have contributed to this forum, and who has passed on loads of information on one of our more important traditional singers.
I hope you really are an extremist example of what has happened in the clubs Muskie - joking or not, your crude loutishness is unacceptable - on par with a roomful of kids shouting out "bum" and "knickers" to shock the adults.
You have already given us a spectacular display of your deep knowledge of Child - how about trying not to act like one - there's a good boy?
I find Al's dishonest denigration of fellow performers because they were unwise enough not to ask him to sing at their club, little better and just as distasteful.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:19 AM

Might be a coincidence then, but he calls himself a folk singer, has done well in BBC Radio 2 folk awards and both Mark Radcliffe and Mike Harding have given him plenty of air time, on their folk programmes. Not bad for mediocre pop....

Your comment "in the idiom" is quite interesting Michael. I have mentioned folk singers adapting rock songs in this thread, and as the thread is about new songs being folk songs, it makes Noddy Holder and Bob Geldoff writers of folk songs, thanks to Martin Carthy and Dave Burland respectively. Both songs are of course folk because in years to come, old men with their Lycra space suits up to their tits will refer to them as reflecting events, lives and thoughts of the age.

Space Girl.. Is it a folk song because it is science fiction or because MacColl and Seeger wrote it?

Meanwhile back at the ranch.. I sang Elton John's Daniel last night. Gave an introduction about the song, the missing verse etc and assuming Jim has the appropriate triplicate forms available, I would like to try and register it as a folk song.

Perhaps Jim will explain his comments above that as he likes two of the acts I mentioned but not the third, that one (Sethman) isn't folk.

There you have it. Folk is whatever Jim likes. If he either doesn't like it or he hasn't heard it, it can't be folk.

Just so we know the ludicrous stance this thread is dealing with.

🐮💩

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:23 AM

As I have mentioned before, I did list in one of my literary guide entries (The Cambridge Guide to Literature in English, ed Ian Ousby 1988) certain singer-songwriters (MacColl, Tawney, Bellamy, Pegg, Coe) who have contributed "new songs convincingly in the traditional idiom". I am not sure whether Seth Lakeman has quite the same mainly traditional-singing background as these, as I am not as familiar with his background and antecedents; but I must say, having sought him on YouTube, that I do find some of his songs quite "convincingly in the idiom".

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:07 PM

the music charts are hardly a meritocracy. all i can say is, if the gang at the grey cock is your idea of competent folksinging and accompaniment - your views are widely divergent from anybody without hearing problems.

I can only think you are so soaked in the values of the tradition, you have developed the dreaded fisherman's smock blindness condition.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:54 PM

Aye. Mediocre.. Whether he be singing, playing guitar or fiddle, I suppose his jeans end south of his belly button eh?

You know, most of mudcat know what folk is, and as they are the other side of the pond, they must be bemused by your insular narrow minded nonsense.

Must dash. About to do our last set. Playing with a folk band tonight. That's folk by the way.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 01:29 PM

" It's what you perceive it to be."
Nope - it's what it is and it can be heard at it's best on 'The Song Carriers'
That id what is defined and documented and will be remembered as folk song when you've all gone to your 'Gracelands in the Sky' - unless you follow through your arguments and burn all the books.
"You really think people who see folk for what it is actually don't like the traditional section of the word folk, don't you?"
I have no idea who you are talking about, but if you are referring to yourself, your distasteful attempts to piss on it and denigrate the people who passed it on - it's doesn't rocket science to work ot what you feel or know about it.
Happty to accept Eliza, The Oyster Band and Lloyd base what they do/did on folk song, but Seth Lakeman?
Always sounded like a mediocre rock performer to me -plenty of them on the scene - not too many in the charts though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 01:00 PM


Oh - a lot of disconcerting electro eventlessness by way of the seasonal dark I shouldn't wonder but no fiddle 'n' banjo with P&CT headlining. Happily we've no such qualms about doing ballads & fragments without any actual bona-fide traditional precedence, just don't call it folk when Rachel's in earshot.<

Eventlessness and banjo — sounds like my kinda night.

(how's the reunion coming along anyway? Or has it come & gone?).<

Neither, yet. It's complicated at our age.

Keep talking — we'll be the first to hit the thousand mark...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:37 PM

Jim - "You want to hear what folk singing, is all about?" (sic)

Everybody knows what folk singing is all about. It's what you perceive it to be. And I doubt with my background and experience I need you to point it out to me. Ditto most of the Mudcat browsing public.

You really think people who see folk for what it is actually don't like the traditional section of the word folk, don't you?

Yeah, Bert Lloyd was folk. So is Seth Lakeman, Eliza Carthy and The Oyster Band.

💤💤💤💤💤

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:40 AM

Ah costume... I keep thinking about getting a red hankie and tying it round my greyhound's collar. Give me some street cred with the "live the dream" crowd.

Right. This afternoon I wrote a song, but it wasn't the best I have ever written to be honest. In fact, after getting initially excited about it, it is a damp squid.

Bear with me.

I have changed a few words so it sounds a bit older, you know, "petticoat" "squire" that sort of thing, and I intend to stick it on a few trad websites and call it traditional, on the basis nobody will know who wrote it.

So.. What makes a new song a folk song? That'll do for starters.

Give it time and some will have learned it at their mother's knee.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:40 AM

Sorry, that last comment was a bit opaque - it was taking off from Al's line about a fine traditional singer called Bob Lewis ... probably not traditional enough for some present.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:37 AM

Traditional enough? A song's either traditional or it isn't; and you can accompany it however you like as far as I'm concerned, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the song. As for the performer being traditional enough...

I just checked, and it turns out that Peter Bellamy and Tony Capstick were almost exactly the same age - they were born about six weeks apart. (If the stupid buggers had stuck around they would both have been 70 now.) When they invent time travel, a gig by one of those guys is going to be my first stop - but I'd have to toss a coin to decide which one. Preferring traditional songs doesn't make you deaf to everything else.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:34 AM

Don't know if anybody's interested, but the MacColl/Charles Parker series, 'The Song Carriers' has just been put up for downloading 'see - Ewan MacColl, The Song Carriers'
If you haven't heard it, it's a must
It includes some of the best traditional singers from Britain and Ireland and a brilliant analysis of the tradition - 50 years old and never been surpassed I.M.O.
The same good fairy has also put up Lloyd's 'Songs of the People' (13 programmes).
You want to hear what folk singing is all, about......?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 10:13 AM

"i think the problem with grey cock was, they had a tradition of being shite."
Simply untrue
They NEVER wore fishemen's smocks, and residents like Pam Bishop were among the most skilful musicians and music teachers on the scene.
Topic thought they were good enough to produce an album of them
You appear to be suffering from a sad dose of THIS
C'mon Al - you're better than this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 10:04 AM

well actually no, they couldn't sing, play,guitar, or penny whistle. it really was dire. they all had fisherman's smocks. i think the problem with grey cock was, they had a tradition of being shite.

thought it would be my fault though, being a clown etc. Jim this is getting like a conversation with 'the old gits'!

and on the contrary, i go to lots of folk clubs Phil, where i don't sing - intending just to listen and learn. went to one last night, where a fine traditional singer called Bob Lewis was singing - probably not traditional enough for some present, even if he was Irish.

however unlike the people who voted for Cameron, I know shite when i see it. The grey cock residents - you wouldn't want them on your shoes. like Jim though, they thought they had impeccable taste.

quite beyond peradventure.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:49 AM

It's the norm now for visiting singers to make themselves known to the MC. Maybe Al was just ahead of his time.

Recently I've only been to one club where I wasn't given a chance to sing, and I don't think that was deliberate; I wrote about it here. I wasn't very pleased, but what the hell, it was only one night (plus I was on my own & hadn't paid a lot to get in).

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:12 AM

"To be fair to Al, there are few things I dislike more than turning up at a club and not getting to sing "
Only if it's a singaround club surely
I can think of many hundreds of clubs where you wouldn't be asked, without having taken offence.
That was the policy of most clubs at one time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

I could name more than one.. Unlike you, I dont confuse aspects of entertainment.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:08 AM

So what can I expect at your Sheffield gig in November, sirrah?

Oh - a lot of disconcerting electro eventlessness by way of the seasonal dark I shouldn't wonder but no fiddle 'n' banjo with P&CT headlining. Happily we've no such qualms about doing ballads & fragments without any actual bona-fide traditional precedence, just don't call it folk when Rachel's in earshot.

Ever hear this? Best thing we've ever done by way hauntological horror with distant echoes of BitBag (how's the reunion coming along anyway? Or has it come & gone?).

Long Lankin - Live in Leicester June 2013

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 07:25 AM

To be fair to Al, there are few things I dislike more than turning up at a club and not getting to sing - and turning up with family in tow, paying to get in and then not getting to sing would piss me off in a big way. So I can certainly sympathise.

That said, my nightmare folk club is one where lots of people do their own material, lots of other people do Harvey Andrews/Jez Lowe/John Conolly numbers and a few daring souls do pop songs - and anyone doing an unaccompanied traditional song is made to feel like an archaelogy lecturer who's interrupted a rave (and good luck if you're expecting anyone to join in on the choruses).

And it sounds as if Al's nightmare club is one where everyone does unaccompanied traditional songs (probably with choruses), and anyone who gets a guitar out is made to feel like a raver who's interrupted an archaeology lecture.

I think we've got a Difference of Opinion here.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:42 AM

"Musically speaking, many of your heroes couldn't hold a note together either Jim. "
Name one?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 04:56 AM

Musically speaking, many of your heroes couldn't hold a note together either Jim. Don't bring the components of music into the discussion, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 04:40 AM

>I personally have largely stopped singing the old songs out of an increased sense of cultural awkwardness with respect of this. <

So what can I expect at your Sheffield gig in November, sirrah? It's says "Heretics Folk Club" — that's what it says on the tin.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 04:06 AM

"Well I'm sorry, we've got to draw the line somewhere. you can pay to come in, but you're not singing here"
Know where you're coming from now Al - met hundreds of you when I used to help with the door at the Singers Club
The clowns who turned up and demanded to sing, no matter what they sang or whether they were able to hang two notes together.
Or the ones 'looking for a gig' who would give the door-person their name, as the to "give us a shout when it's my turn" then sit in the bar, not showing any interest whatever in what was happening upstairs in the club they were asking for a booking, or demanding half a dozen songs when there were a dozen visiting singers on the list.....
I avoided clubs that would put up with that shit like the plague - those were the ones you were guaranteed to go home from not having heard a folk song, or having heard a night of mostly crap singing - if there was ever a 'golden age' on the folk club scene, it was when clubs like that where virtually non-existent.
The Grey Cock, The Singers Club and virtually every club have been part of, were policy clubs in the sense that we tried to present what we believed was folk song and tried to establish a standard of singing that wouldn't send the audience home thinking, "folk song is tuneless, talentless crap and not worth bothering your arse about".   
I've been happy to go to clubs where a fair amount of time is given over to floor-singers occasionally, but not as a general policy, and the best of these nights have always been the ones that were organised to attempt to guarantee a bias towards singers who didn't have to read their songs from crib-sheets and could hold two notes together.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM

"In Ireland, all the music, singing and storytelling took place in farmhouse kitchens."

so without a farmhouse kitchen - you were pretty much bollocksed. actually its not the impression you get from the short stories of James Joyce.

from Joyce, you hear the folksongs sung by schoolkids, travellers on a train, in a pub, the ferret cage competitiveness of the feis, by sportsmen, medical students, political meetings......

okay, I know what's coming next.......well they weren't really folksongs. just like nobody in English folk clubs is singing folksongs.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:15 AM

Tit trousers was a term of endearment from when I first used the term, accompanying Tom and Bertha Brown to clubs and festivals 30 odd years ago. Like all the other "originals" Tom wore clothes to folk gigs he certainly never wore at home. Brilliant theatre, and taught by his mate Fred Jordan.

It only has been seen as an insult on this thread because Jim explodes at anything that doesn't worship the high waist banded ones in revered tones. I was called a goose stepper for saying some songs can't ever sound worth listening to...

The late Tony Capstick used to tell a joke (the one about two old blokes in a pub, a dog licking his balls and a packet of crisps, you know the one..) and tell it as if it were a conversation between Sam Larner and Walter Pardon. Personalising it just made it funnier for a folk audience.

In case anyone forgot, comedy has always been a key ingredient of The UK folk club genre.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:33 PM

not impressed with what i did....

they never found out

who are your influences?

well i like Ralph McTell

Well I'm sorry, we've got to draw the line somewhere. you can pay to come in, but you're not singing here.

well with difficulty i had got my disabled wife up the stairs. i had also brought my mother and father in law, who were keen supporters of me.
We paid for our tickets and were treated to the biggest most arrogant load of shite, i have ever witnessed. And in lifetime of listening to folksingers, that's saying something.
When i sang and played like that. i stayed at home and practised - in solitude like Sam Larner. you don't become proficient keeping company like that.

i can see where you get all your attitude from though - jim. they really thought they were god'd chosen ones.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:31 PM

Many of the audience are attracted by the modern way of presenting the music and have no interest, and would even be turned off by, authentic traditional singers

Fuck them, then.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:28 PM

"In Ireland, all the music, singing and storytelling took place in farmhouse kitchens."
would it not be more correct to say most, rather than all, I mean what was Margaret Barry doing busking on the streets,when she shuld have been in her rightful place "the kitchen"

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM

Many of the audience are attracted by the modern way of presenting the music and have no interest, and would even be turned off by, authentic traditional singers. I was like this myself, once.

I used to think an evening of never knowing what kind of music (or what standard of performance) you were going to get - and being able to get up myself and sing anything I liked - was just the bestest thing ever; if asked I would have said that that was the great thing about folk clubs. Then I found the door in the hill that let me into Tradworld, and I've never looked back - I just enjoyed it so much more. (OK, it wasn't quite as sudden as that - more a case of 'first gradually, then all at once'.)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 11:18 AM

"Perhaps this is the source of the apparent confusion between us"
Then there is no great confusion.
In many ways, the clubs were are artificial as Sharp's drawing rooms - from what we were told, so were the pubs.
Sam Larner sang regularly in 'The Fisherman's Return' and competed in fishermans' competitions up the East coast, but he old Parker and MacColl, "the serious singing was done at home or at sea" - that's where he sang his loner songs.
In Ireland, all the music, singing and storytelling took place in farmhouse kitchens.
Travellers sang in family groups or at gatherings like Ballinasloe or Puck Fairs.
Again, they said, "you wouldn't get the attention for the big songs in pubs".
Walter Pardon's experience was at family/friend gatherings like Christmas parties and birthdays - he couldn't remember the harvest suppers.
The only time he ever saw pub singing was after an Agricultural Workers Trade Union meeting when he watched through the window when his Uncle Billy sang.
This is why it would be nonsense to attempt to revive the tradition.
The clubs gave us townies, or those who no longer had local singers, a chance to hear the songs and to hear some of the surviving singers - wouldn't have missed it for the world.
They provided us with venues at which we could sing the songs we fancied, meet up with other enthusiasts and swap ideas and material - something else I wouldn't have missed.
It enabled us to, to some degree, spread the awareness of folk song and maybe even put feelers out for local material - London and Birmingham did it, we did it to some extent in Manchester, and singers like Harry Boardman became known for his Lancashire repertoire.
The Singers Club pioneered The themed 'feature' and 'poetry and song' evenings.
The clubs allowed us to become creative artists after we'd washed the days dirt off and had our meal - now that's something I would not have missed.
As I said, virtually all my friends were workers - me and a mate first stumbled into the Spinners Club in Liverpool - I was an electrical apprentice on the docks, he was a fruit stall worker at Paddy's Market, most of the audience had similar jobs.
In Manchester, Terry Whelan was a trouncer (driver) for a brewery firm, my mate/accompanist, Barry Taylor was a clerk for a shipping firm at Manchester Airport, Eddie Lenihan was a retired building worker and Tom Gilfellon and Dave Hillary were students.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 11:18 AM

Justy linked to it on my Facebook page. Any Facebookers here? Come! Let's be friends!

Sedayne Blandiver's Facebook Page

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 11:14 AM

The last great folk protest song...

That I lived to see the day when I could listen such music at the click of a button! What a perfect joy.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 10:25 AM

How well I remember my father. Dressed in his Tit trousers, staggering home from the pub with eight pints in him and belting out Nellie Dean. Happy days.
john

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:26 AM

When the "tit trousers" label was first minted, thousands of postings ago, it was a snooty, offensive jibe. Now it's quite funny. The tit trousers remix - I'll have one of those, please.

Is this what they call the Folk Process?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:03 AM

.... and here are the words and chords..

play along, sing along, clap along, in perfect harmony...

Let's all protest together in harmonious folkie unison...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:56 AM

"At least half of the clubs I frequented were predominantly, if not overwhelmingly working class based."

Perhaps this is the source of the apparent confusion between us. Clearly we were visiting very different clubs. My experience has been that the overwhelming majority of people I have met in the folk revival have been middle class, by education and occupation if not by origin. If that matters.

The folk revival is of course entirely separate from the actual tradition. It's not often I agree with Jack Blandiver, but here I do. The folk revival is an artificial construct which does not even attempt to replicate the environment in which folk music once existed. Many of the audience are attracted by the modern way of presenting the music and have no interest, and would even be turned off by, authentic traditional singers. I was like this myself, once.

Occasionally the likes of Walter Pardon and Fred Jordan could be found performing at folk clubs and festivals, but on the whole the folk revival exists within itself, and the revival style of performing traditional songs bears little resemblance to the actual tradition. Even when songs are performed unaccompanied they might bear little resemblance to traditional singing styles but rather a generic 'folk voice' (although with more recorded material available I think this has changed in recent years).

Where the real tradition still survives it is (almost by definition) within working-class communities, but I suspect they have little use for folk clubs.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:48 AM

"it still didn't give his acolytes any excuse for acting like arseholes."
I'll stand by what they achieved - goes for me as well.
Maybe they didn't give you a booking, or even worse, weren't impressed with what you do - real arseholes?
Thank you for continuing to make m point Jack - saves me the bother
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:39 AM

The last great folk protest song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPsXPCR5MU

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:24 AM

Nothing middle class about a MacBook. Even we goose steppers and haters of music have them...

I reckon quite a few people are reading this thread. Last night I sang an unaccompanied traditional song which I usually use the guitar for. I referred to my unaccompanied rendition as the tit trousers remix. Got a laugh and a slight applause..

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:09 AM

Road Number? Predictive text on my new middle-class MacBook!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:07 AM

And ALWAYS be Folk to someone too, regardless of any orthodoxy or consensus, because these things have a life of their own, just as they did Back In The Day when the Old Songs ranged throughout the English Speaking World in feral abundance until licked into shape in the name of Folklore, without which, of course, most of us might never have got wind of them in the first place. BUT, like other examples of exhibited savagery (the shrunken heads in the Pit Rivers Museum come to mind, similarly 'Collected' and 'Itemised' and subject to the objective scrutiny of an Imperialistic Academia) we can can only press our faces against the glass and gaze in mute horror as we imagine sights unseen, now sanitised for the entertainment of the civilised. The Folk Heritage is hoary horror on a cultural feedback loop, echoing from generation to generation as they decide what it means to them and redefine notions of Tradition and Invention just as MacColl and his ilk did back in their day. Like Religion, it remains very much Optional, despite the overtones of Pure Blood Authenticity one still encounters like when Steve Roud announced a few years back (somewhere on this very forum) that a Bogus Folksong (.e. Shoals of Herring) becomes a Real Folksong when collected from a Bonafide Traditional Folksinger & earns the Chufty Badge of a Road Number. Seems to me only a matter of time before The Revealing Science of God gets a Roud Number too. It is, God knoweth, this sort of nonsense that puts me right off however much I might love the scholarship otherwise.

Fly fishing, Old Man? Nah. I was always more of a guddling man myself. Cheaper and more effective when there's hungry mouths to feed.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:55 AM

Jim, i don't care if charles parker built the pyramids at thebes -it still didn't give his acolytes any excuse for acting like arseholes.

and to be honest -it pains me to say so - if i ever need a whiff of their attitude of superiority, it does tend to hang round your postings occasionally.