Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35]


What makes a new song a folk song?

Related threads:
So what is *Traditional* Folk Music? (411)
Still wondering what's folk these days? (161)
Folklore: What Is Folk? (156)
Traditional? (75)
New folk song (31) (closed)
What is a kid's song? (53)
What is a Folk Song? (292)
Who Defines 'Folk'???? (287)
Popfolk? (19)
What isn't folk (88)
Does Folk Exist? (709)
Definition of folk song (137)
Here comes that bloody horse - again! (23)
What is a traditional singer? (136)
Is the 1954 definition, open to improvement? (105)
Folklore: Folk, 1954 definition? (133)
'Folk.' OK...1954. What's 'country?' (17)
Folklore: Define English Trad Music (150)
What is Folk Music? This is... (120)
What is Zydeco? (74)
Traditional singer definition (360)
Is traditional song finished? (621)
1954 and All That - defining folk music (994)
BS: It ain't folk if ? (28)
No, really -- what IS NOT folk music? (176)
What defines a traditional song? (160) (closed)
Folklore: Are 'What is Folk?' Threads Finished? (79)
How did Folk Song start? (57)
Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs? (129)
What is The Tradition? (296) (closed)
What is Blues? (80)
What is filk? (47)
What makes it a Folk Song? (404)
Article in Guardian:folk songs & pop junk & racism (30)
Does any other music require a committee (152)
Folk Music Tradition, what is it? (29)
Trad Song (36)
What do you consider Folk? (113)
Definition of Acoustic Music (52)
definition of a ballad (197)
What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk? (219)
Threads on the meaning of Folk (106)
Does it matter what music is called? (451)
What IS Folk Music? (132)
It isn't 'Folk', but what is it we do? (169)
Giving Talk on Folk Music (24)
What is Skiffle? (22)
Folklore: Folk, Pop, Trad or what? (19)
What is Folk? (subtitled Folk not Joke) (11)
Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers? (124)
Is it really Folk? (105)
Folk Rush in Where Mudcat Fears To Go (10)
A new definition of Folk? (34)
What is Folk? IN SONG. (20)
New Input Into 'WHAT IS FOLK?' (7)
What Is More Insular Than Folk Music? (33)
What is Folk Rock? (39)
'What is folk?' and cultural differences (24)
What is a folk song, version 3.0 (32)
What is Muzak? (19)
What is a folk song? Version 2.0 (59)
FILK: what is it? (18)
What is a Folksinger? (51)
BS: What is folk music? (69) (closed)
What is improvisation ? (21)
What is a Grange Song? (26)


The Sandman 07 Sep 14 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 14 - 07:53 AM
TheSnail 07 Sep 14 - 07:48 AM
TheSnail 07 Sep 14 - 07:47 AM
TheSnail 07 Sep 14 - 07:45 AM
Lighter 07 Sep 14 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 14 - 05:51 AM
Musket 07 Sep 14 - 04:51 AM
Gibb Sahib 07 Sep 14 - 04:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 14 - 08:14 PM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 04:23 PM
Lighter 06 Sep 14 - 03:30 PM
Lighter 06 Sep 14 - 03:18 PM
TheSnail 06 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM
TheSnail 06 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 14 - 12:46 PM
TheSnail 06 Sep 14 - 12:26 PM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 11:58 AM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM
TheSnail 06 Sep 14 - 11:24 AM
TheSnail 06 Sep 14 - 11:20 AM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 10:51 AM
Lighter 06 Sep 14 - 10:49 AM
Lighter 06 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM
TheSnail 06 Sep 14 - 10:36 AM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 10:35 AM
Lighter 06 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 14 - 09:16 AM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 08:50 AM
Lighter 06 Sep 14 - 08:06 AM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 05:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 14 - 05:23 AM
Phil Edwards 06 Sep 14 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 05 Sep 14 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Carl Ellis (VT Yank) 05 Sep 14 - 10:41 PM
Musket 05 Sep 14 - 06:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Sep 14 - 06:29 PM
Musket 05 Sep 14 - 06:12 PM
The Sandman 05 Sep 14 - 03:46 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 14 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 05 Sep 14 - 02:34 PM
The Sandman 05 Sep 14 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 14 - 02:11 PM
The Sandman 05 Sep 14 - 01:30 PM
The Sandman 05 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Sep 14 - 11:51 AM
TheSnail 05 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 14 - 09:22 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:54 AM

jim carroll, by his own admission rarely visits folk clubs, so it follows he knows little about what is being sung in folk clubs, he has also displayed his ignorance about col tom parker, he is frequently handing out compliments such as calling other members "arrogant little prats"
he also stated that the 1954 defintion was accepted world wide, another fallacy, it appears to be accepted by the EFDSS AND SOME ENGLISH SONG SCHOLARS,that is not world wide.
what makes a new song a folk song? in my opinion it becomes a folk song when it is sung by people who have little awareness of the uk folk revival or the songs origins but conclude it is traditional ,examples fiddlers green , song for ireland, caledonia, diry old town, shoals of herring , englands motorway, the coves of rossbrin, fields of athenry. the fact that these new songs are folk songs does not mean that they will all be sung in folk clubs, in fact while folk songs are frequently sung in folk clubs , the real test in my opinion is their acceptance outside the uk folk revival, which by its nature tends to be exclusive.
this exclusivity seems to be what jim carroll wants, he wants folk clubs to do what it says on the tin , yet he nor anyone else can define what should be on the tin, jim seems to want songs such as barbara allen and the songs from walter pardon repertoire that walter gave more importance to.
his attitude is exclusivity, folk clubs should put on what jim carroll considers to be folk music[ which he has yet to define]at the same time he claims he is not purist because he approves of some new songs, but it is my opinion that which Jim wants in folk clubs the sort of new songs that MacColl wrote or songs of social comment, he wants to exclude other new songs that presumably he does not like or that do not fall into this category, basically Jim Carroll considers folk music to be new social comment songs, and songs of the ilk of barbara allen, that is what he wants when he goes to folk clubs, but is that what everybody else wants, does jim carroll define blues as folk song does he define songs such as coalminers daughter or my little nicotine girl or dark as a dungeon as folk song, these songs are relatively new songs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:53 AM

"scholars today are receptive to the many ways performers and audiences conceptualize what they (performers and audiences) call "Folk,"
Then we need to know how they have incorporated their receptiveness into a new definition - so far nothing.
"And at the same time non-scholars are using the word in whatever way suits them"
My pont exactly - nothing to do with the music itself - rather a justification of taking over a name and a venue to provide a platform and an audience for something entirely different.
Not only has this endangered the future and the proliferation of folk song proper, but it led to 'folk' being a meaningless term with no tangible definition outside the established one
Even this has become extremely difficult to discuss rationally and calmly thanks to a heavy gang of 'folk police' telling those of us who wish to that we shouldn't be - "troll" has just been added to the invective on one of the other threads - "finger-in-ear" and "purist" - (not forgetting "folk police" of course) being old and hackneyed long-standing ones.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:48 AM

Jim Carroll
"exactly what it said on the label" - the clubs I referred to when i used that term were The Singers Club and Court sessions - neither of which use 'folk' in their title, but presented folk and folk based songs - that is what I meant and to suggest otherwise is totally disingenuous.

I must apologise Jim. I had misunderstood. From the jusxtaposition of the semtences, I thought you were saying that the rot had set in at those two clubs. Terribly sorry about that.

Got to do some practice of my own before a band practice. I'll be back on the case later.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:47 AM

it does pay to cohort with the proletariat occasionally.

Presumably you don't wash for a couple of days to blend in.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:45 AM

Lighter
That wax fruit is not the same as real fruit, that a singer-songwriter "folksong" isn't much like a 1954-def "folksong," and that those who still observe the semantic distinction are not the dimwits you seem to think they are.

Sorry Lighter, you've lost me completely. I can't see for the life of me how this relates to anything I've said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:01 AM

> scholars today are receptive to the many ways performers and audiences conceptualize what they (performers and audiences) call "Folk," and in their own work, seek more precision and terms that reflect the latest and best (not 1950s) ideas.

And at the same time non-scholars are using the word in whatever way suits them. There is simply more than one usage, and like many thousands of others that we live with, the most inclusive is far more so than the most narrow.   

These are obvious points.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:51 AM

" If they can't or won't agree, how can you expect musicians to agree?"
They can't agree on detail - part of research of an subject.
Nothing to do with definition, which remains as it was until it is replaced.
Any replacement, if it it to be comprehensible and workable needs to be backed up with researched information - you have that with '54.
I've just re-visited the Funk and Wagnall Dictionary of folklore with the intention of putting it up here.
There are seventeen, double columned pages of it, covering many aspects of the genre including how song relate to other aspects of folklore and how English-language songs compare to those of other cultures.
Nowhere does it contradict the basic premises set out in the '54 definition, which is quite interesting in itself as it was published in 1949.
What you are talking about when you refer to other definitions (which you still haven't provided) is the misuse of the term, not a re-definition.
You have referred, quite interestingly, to physics - you dont stop the-man-in-the-street for information on the subject - why should you do so for folk song?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 04:51 AM

If I recall from the adverts, a scholar is someone who drinks Scholl lager?

I'm a bit of a scholar myself as it happens, but not lager piss. I having my annual sojourn to Southwold at present and the house is less than 200 yds from the Adnams brewery.

There are lots of words beginning with F and one is coming to me right now....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 04:41 AM

As a scholar, I don't accept the word "folk." The capitalized "Folk" I'm cool with, but the lower-case "folk" I reject.

Big-F "Folk" is a label that means different things to different people. (duh) As with other labels that attempt to group music, for some purpose, its meanings are not only multiple but also necessarily fuzzy. It is useful, when true precision is not important, when you are speaking/interacting with other people who likely share the same rough sense of the kind of stuff you're talking about (and not talking about). For example, to say Mudcat is a place to discuss Folk music is perfectly acceptable. Being in English language gives me the first clue as to what sort of "Folk" is under discussion. Then, seeing the sort of discussion, including the musical items that figure in, completes the picture.

Use of little-f "folk," carries with it, to me, the belief on the part of the user that the term has a more precise and constant meaning - that it is somehow technical or scientific. At the very least I think this "folk" is nonsense. At the most, it carries ideological baggage that is distasteful, and it is too ethnocentric in its concept to have validity for the way I think about music - in its broad historical and cultural and biological (human) dimensions.

OMG that's so twentieth century. … Phrenology, anyone?

I don't find there is anything I need to describe as "folk", in a scholarly context, that I can't describe with a more precise and/or neutral way. If it's amateurs performing, I say that. If it's oral transmission that is important, I say that. If there are certain stylistic features - specific textures, timbres, harmonies, intonation, instruments used, etc - I just say what those are.

I have published a good amount of scholarship on dances of the Punjab region. These are dances typically performed by a group of people moving in a circle to the rhythms of a drum. You'll hear Punjabi people -in urban, Westernized contexts - wanting to call them "Punjabi traditional folk dances". One reason why they do that is because the words "traditional" and "folk" have a certain "ring" to them. What they are saying, indirectly, is that they value things called "traditional" (as opposed to its supposed opposite, "modern"). They think there is something essential better, more pure, etc about "traditional," and just thinking about these dances that way gives them a little buzz. Same goes with "folk." But not only is the "traditional folk" part redundant, it's also superfluous. These are the "Punjabi" dances. There are no Punjabi "classical" dances or Punjabi "pop" dances or anything else. The dance belong to the Punjabi region, hence "Punjabi dances" - that's all I need to call them.

Similarly, when others use "folk" as if it were a scholarly term, I suspect it is something they *like* to say because it gives them a little buzz…tickles a little romantic spot. At the least, it carries an expression of *valuation*. I think in good scholarship, however, there is no room for such valuation. We need to strive for neutral terms.

That romance was there through the days of Karpelles to Lomax. I get the sense it really delighted them to be writing things talking about "folk" stuff. We're past those days now. That bubble has burst. Scholars can't position themselves as valuing "folk" stuff as opposed to "popular" or "classical", etc.

I think those definitions in the encyclopedias that Lighter quoted are nonsensical. There is some kind of Emperor-wears-no-clothes lip-service going on. The scholars that produce those are/were in a world where they are forced to deal with that terminology because someone has put it on the table but they haven't grown the balls to take it off. There's too much attachment to it. And there are too many institutions in place - archives of "folk" stuff and departments of "folk" whatever - to pull the plug. The thing is, these institutions, etc can carry on as long as people are thinking "Folk" (and finessing that as they go) and not full of themselves; as long as people are not drawing the conclusion that because there is a "Folk Archive" then the little-f "folk" is the operative conceptual framework.

It may sound harsh that I say it's nonsense when scholars use (little-f) "folk", but that doesn't mean I reject these scholars' work. I just think we are past that. Old folks can keep on what they did in the past, I suppose - no biggie. But they risk sounding parochial to the newer generations of scholars. Hence, the very active (professionally) and younger scholars - in which I include myself - can't afford to do it if we're to be considered very seriously.

I really don't - sincerely I don't - have a major beef with the (older?) scholars who use "folk" a lot. But I want to make it clear that "1954" concept of "folk" is not a standard thing among scholars of today. To summarize: scholars today are receptive to the many ways performers and audiences conceptualize what they (performers and audiences) call "Folk," and in their own work, seek more precision and terms that reflect the latest and best (not 1950s) ideas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:14 PM

'one can't "correct" the usage of millions who couldn't care less'

as Tony Hancock said, if this was an election, you'd have lost your deposit...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:23 PM

Yes, but the VIP lounge is applicable because I am, in the words of Billy Connoly, windswept and interesting.

Any road, if I am to gain topics for folk songs, it does pay to cohort with the proletariat occasionally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 03:30 PM

Jim, the folklore encyclopedias I quoted earlier are written by and for scholars. If they can't or won't agree, how can you expect musicians to agree?

One can "correct" the usage of a few people who accept one's authority, but one can't "correct" the usage of millions who couldn't care less.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 03:18 PM

>Um? Er? Yes. And your point is?

That wax fruit is not the same as real fruit, that a singer-songwriter "folksong" isn't much like a 1954-def "folksong," and that those who still observe the semantic distinction are not the dimwits you seem to think they are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM

"tap room"!? Come off it. Never get you out of the VIP lounge these days.

TheSnail isn't my title, it's my identity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM

"In fact it means plenty. It means that current scholars disagree with each other about what they mean by "folksong,"
How do you get from "people" to "scholars Lighter - or is that another term you have redefined?
Bryan
"exactly what it said on the label" - the clubs I referred to when i used that term were The Singers Club and Court sessions - neither of which use 'folk' in their title, but presented folk and folk based songs - that is what I meant and to suggest otherwise is totally disingenuous.
I have never advocated a purist club, I have never supported such a narrow idea, I think I only ever experienced one some time in the sixties.
You know damn well I am talking about clubs who adopt the title folk as a flag of convenience and provide nothing of the sort
But if you wish to score by claiming this as a concession, please feel free to do so - always happy to help the needy.
""It was on your watch that things went tits up not mine."
Not true - The Singers Club ceased after I was no longer anything other than a member due to other pressures - Court Sessins continued until lat year - about fourteen years after we moved to Ireland.
"I have been going to folk clubs for forty years, quite often more than once a week. "
Well done you -- about the same time I was involved - and your point it....?
"Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area
she rang one and asked did they want to book him
Nuff sed."
Didn't you miss a bit out?
What I actually wrote was:
"Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area to see if she couldn't get him a couple more to make the trip worth his while.
On spec, she rang one and asked did they want to book him.
The nice lady on the other end said she had never heard of him and cou[ld Pat explain what Walter did.
Pat explained who he was, told her of his experience at clubs and the half dozen solo albums he had made.
"Sorry", came the reply, "we only book folk singers".
Nuff sed."

At no time have I used the term pestered to my recollection ``- we continued to get some calls after he retired from the clubs but not that many.
Pat wasn't Walter's agent - she got him extra bookings when he visited us - if he wanted them.
The few calls we continued to get were from those regulars who had booked him before
The example I gave was of one that is being argued here - a folk club that didn't know its folk arse from its elbow.
"You only respect people who share your opinions."
I assume that its the 'Royal You' - I certainly respect many people I disagree with - I just don't agree with them, that's all.
What exactly is your point here Bryan - that the folk revival is booming and I'm making it all up - that people who have no interest in folk music yet call their clubs 'folk' are figments of my imagination.
Are all the people who take part in these forums and say their experiences the same as mine lying.
Are those who agree with that conclusion yet defend the situation by saying nobody wants to listen to the old stuff anymore because its had its day figments of my imagination?
Can British folk song both in performance or as a research topic look forward to a glowing future - or any future at all when those of our generation snuff it (without hopping on a train to Lewes, that is?).
There was little sign of that being the case fourteen years ago - even less now.
There certainly wan't much sign of it when I spent a week in London earlier this year - but happy to five it another go.
Off to Oxford next month to do some research work on two radio programmes on Ewan - any suggestions of what to look out for (general question - haven't got time to head for Sussex)
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM

Jim Carroll
Perhaps some straightforward responses rather than snideswipes Bryan
We can all be right by not answering arguments


Indeed so, Jim. Bearing that in mind, perhaps you would take the trouble to read and respond to my post of 06 Sep 14 - 10:36 AM.
While you are at it, you could take a look at my post of 02 Sep 14 - 01:13 PM which you also ignored.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:11 PM

Ok try again. Lord Musket of the tap room.

Will that do you?

Any references to reality were purely accidental. Insisting on The in your title is somewhat pretentious for that matter.

We booked a caller for a ceilidh last year for a family do. The band was a scratch band of mates but we needed a caller. Her card gave her title as (her name) M.E.F.D.S.S.

Wonderful.

To be fair, she was rather good, but unnerved the band by stating the tempo she needed by number.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:46 PM

"Excellent. Now, if we can just get Jim to do the same..."
Perhaps some straightforward responses rather than snideswipes Bryan
We can all be right by not answering arguments
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:26 PM

The Right Reverend Prof Sir Musket VD&Bar

Shouldn't that be Emeritus now that you've given up your visitor's chair?

That is unnerving and causing me to question myself....

Excellent. Now, if we can just get Jim to do the same...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:58 AM

I suppose the alternative would be supporting Jim's cosy restrained definition of something with no definable boundaries..




Ok. You win.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM

That's The Right Reverend Prof Sir Musket VD&Bar to you...

The problem is, I largely agree with your previous post. That is unnerving and causing me to question myself....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:24 AM

Musket
Stop dragging me into it snail.. You are confusing me on the basis I largely agree with you.

That's TheSnail to you Musketman. Anyway, what's the problem? I was citing you as someone whose opinion was just as valid as Jim's.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:20 AM

Not to dispute your tastes, but "derived from the tradition" is a lot like Hollywood's "based on actual events," which often implies minimal resemblance to what really happened.

We don't know much about folk music but we know what we like. (Actually, some of us know quite a lot about folk music.)

In any case, the re-enacted events, like the newly written songs, are still imitations - good, bad, or indifferent.

Um? Er? Yes. And your point is?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:51 AM

Stop dragging me into it snail.. You are confusing me on the basis I largely agree with you.

Here's a good one. I love using a carbon fibre acoustic guitar, (Rainsong) when playing acoustic and especially folk clubs. A few months ago, someone said in an email to the folk club organiser after I had been to their club that carbon fibre guitars have no place in folk clubs and only traditional wooden guitars should be tolerated!

He forwarded it to me. What he must have thought of "Senile Skifflers" a song taking the piss out of folk club musicians, written by my old partner in crime Mitch, I shudder to think! It got a good laugh at the time, which is the main thing I suppose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:49 AM

In any case, the re-enacted events, like the newly written songs, are still imitations - good, bad, or indifferent.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM

> contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition

Not to dispute your tastes, but "derived from the tradition" is a lot like Hollywood's "based on actual events," which often implies minimal resemblance to what really happened.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:36 AM

Jim Carroll
I have conceded nothing.
I have never at any time promoted a'folk-only' club.


You have, for a long time, said that folk clubs should do "what it says on the tin" modified, in this thread, to "exactly what it said on the label". In this thread, you have said "Walk into a folk club and you your probably be told "Piss off, we don't need a definition". When challenged, you produced a list of names that you considered acceptable outside the 1954 definition but denied that it was subjective. Then you turned round and said "I knew that the type of music I was going to hear corresponded to what I thought folk song sounded like". That would work pretty well as an illustration of the meaning of subjective. "What Jim Carroll thinks folk song sounds like" is very unlikely to be written on the tin or label of any folk club. OK, if your name is on the list of organisers, it's there by implication. Equally, if Musket's name (whatever it is) was on the list that would imply that it was whatever he thought folk song sounded like. Your voice carries no more authority than anyone else's.

You say "the two clubs I mentioned were 'The Singers Club' and 'Court Sessions' both of which I helped to run" confirming what said I said the other day "It was on your watch that things went tits up not mine.

Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area
she rang one and asked did they want to book him
Nuff sed.


No, nothing said at all. I seem to remember you saying a while ago that, after Walter had decided that he wasn't going to perform any more, you got pestered by organisers to try and persuade him to do a booking at their clubs. Likewise, over twenty years ago. On your watch. Nothing to do with what is happening now.
I bet Al Whittle has been turned down far more times than Walter Pardon.

I maintained my contact with people whose opinions I respect

Circular argument Jim. You only respect people who share your opinions.

I stopped going to clubs around 14 years ago - by which time the rot had well and truly set in

I have been going to folk clubs for forty years, quite often more than once a week. I'll be going to the one I help organise in a few hours time. On our publicity it says -

Our interest is mainly (but not exclusively) in British traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition.

We have booked numerous people within that range over the years including several members of the Critics Group. I presume these people get sufficient bookings elsewhere to make it worthwhile them continuing.

I really have said this on numerous occasions - you don't accept it - tough!.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:35 AM

On another thread, we are discussing Anais Mitchell and her rather wonderful versions of a few Child ballads. Out of curiosity, I looked at my iTunes listing for the album and it said Country and Western.....

Quite.

As Apple have rather litigious lawyers, I'd rather not support Jim if its all the same to you!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

> "people will call it whatever they wish" Doesn't mean a damn thing.

In fact it means plenty. It means that current scholars disagree with each other about what they mean by "folksong," just as some scholars   disagree with the musicians.

You too, Jim, can use the word in ways that seem most appropriate, and most of the time I'll be inclined to agree with you.

But it's pointless to expect and demand that others, from John and Jane Zilch to the academics we've mentioned, will suddenly reverse course and take a more discriminating view. They don't want to. They don't feel a need to (just the opposite, really). They won't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:16 AM

"the tradition is changing. my instrumental influences were the blues project guys"
You are talking to peoples tastes changing - not the music which has been documented as folk.
I can like all the people you mention and still like the music I know to be as folk - in that way I can use the term to cater for all my different aspects of interest of the genre.
"They'll call it "folk," and their friends will agree."
Fine - they can call it 'butty music' if they like but it anin't a butty if it hasn't got butter on it.
You wanted a definition - you have '54 and yo have the Oxford Dictionary one
So far you've come up with "people will call it whatever they wish"
Doesn't mean a damn thing and it helps to confuse rather than to bring people to a specified type of music and help people enjoy and understand it for what it is and what it signifies.
I've described what has happened here in Ireland by deciding what you mean and going for it - I am aware what has happened to folk music in Britain
I'll stick with what I know, thanks all the same.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:50 AM

It isn't what they are calling folk. The issue is when they say what isn't folk....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:06 AM

> whether you like it or not, the tradition is changing. my instrumental influences were the blues project guys - van ronk, koerner etc; stefan grossman; derek brimstone; paul downes; wizz jones; mctell. stylistically if not substantially -everything I do is folk -it not rock or blues or jazz -its folk.

People who want to think of their favorite music as "folk," regardless, won't be influenced by any discussion here. They'll call it "folk," and their friends will agree.

Life is full of ambiguities.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:54 AM

Folk clubs play folk music.

It does what it says on the tin.

There is a nudge towards a style that echoes traditional music, and many of us get huge enjoyment out of putting our stamp on traditional songs. I mentioned in either this or the other nonsense thread on the same subject that Imagined Village took this to new heights in my opinion. All that got was Jim Carroll dismissing Martin Carthy, so not sure where to take this discussion really.

"It was the first of May, a righteous holiday"

Go for it Ben!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:23 AM

as there seems to be a lot of controversy about what is folksong, perhaps it would be best if you gave us a list of the songs you consider to be a folksong and we we will promise to put one or two in if we see you in the audience.

whether you like it or not, the tradition is changing. my instrumental influences were the blues project guys - van ronk, koerner etc; stefan grossman; derek brimstone; paul downes; wizz jones; mctell. stylistically if not substantially -everything I do is folk -it not rock or blues or jazz -its folk.

I can't change the march of history for you, but I promise to try and accommodate you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:36 AM

People enjoy folk music. So sad that you don't. Especially after all the work you put into it. But you know what ? Those you dismiss are those taking it to the next generations.

Not really. I used to enjoy going to my local folk club - I was a regular performer there for several years, doing cover versions, my own songs & the odd traditional number. I went off it in a big way when three things happened:

a) I heard a lot of traditional songs
b) I realised I liked them
c) I realised that traditional songs were the one thing you very rarely heard at that folk club

I go back every so often & I can confirm that the club's thriving. But you're about as likely to hear a traditional song - any traditional song - as a song by Donovan. Traditional songs aren't going to get to the next generation that way.

In my case there's a happy ending - I've found other venues where you can hear traditional songs half the time or even more. But giving up on folk clubs is totally understandable to me, and it's certainly got nothing to do with giving up on folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 10:58 PM

... as an educated and cultured Englishman who enjoys using the F word from morning till bedtime...

I am bemused,
why would anyone make up an internet name just to post once on mudcat to moan about the word 'Fuck' ???

Think about it Carl Ellis (VT Yank), you may be a bit odd....???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Carl Ellis (VT Yank)
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 10:41 PM

Well yes, it was an interesting thread. I have learned from it that if I ever feel an inclination to use the f**k word in connection with anything I intend to sing I had better go wash out my own mouth with soap, and on returning mention merely that I have a kinda song-tune thingie I'd like to try. But don't let me spoil the fun you're all having.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:49 PM

Al. Stop it.

I'll end up having to buy you a pint when visiting relatives in Dorset if you are not careful.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:29 PM

so someone wouldn't give Walter Pardon a gig. someone hadn't heard of him. didn't like the cut of his gib....

welcome to the world of entertainment. as a savvy old drummer once said to me - if you can't handle rejection. you can't handle this job. it eighty per cent of the job.

traddies seem to get a fairly easy ride to me considering their uncompromising views on style and presentation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:12 PM

Jim. If a rot set in 14 years ago, how come the rest of us enjoy putting our coats on and ignoring Knobenders or MasterChef?

People enjoy folk music. So sad that you don't. Especially after all the work you put into it. But you know what ? Those you dismiss are those taking it to the next generations.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 03:46 PM

"My objection has been from the beginning and remains, that club after club I stopped going to no longer presented anything resembling folk song.
It was summed up perfectly for me one time when we had booked Walter Pardon for The Singers and Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area to see if she couldn't get him a couple more to make the trip worth his while.
On spec, she rang one and asked did they want to book him.
The nice lady on the other end said she had never heard of him and cou[ld Pat explain what Walter did.
Pat explained who he was, told her of his experience at clubs and the half dozen solo albums he had made.
"Sorry", came the reply, "we only book folk singers".
Nuff sed.
Jim Carroll"
jim you are generalising from one particular incident.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 03:10 PM

By the way Bryan
At he risk of nipping the start of a beautiful friendship in the bud
"You seem to have conceded everything I've been saying"
I have conceded nothing.
I have never at any time promoted a'folk-only' club.
Since day one of my involvement I have sung and have enjoyed newly composed songs written using folk forms.
When I joined the Critics group I was plunged into songwriting workshops run bt Ewan and Peggy - tried my hand at sever of my own, but didn't have what it takes.
I admit, I was taken anback when I first heard Ewan express the opinion that, "without new songs the revival would be little more than a museum" - but it didn't take me too long to change my mind at that one.
My objection has been from the beginning and remains, that club after club I stopped going to no longer presented anything resembling folk song.
It was summed up perfectly for me one time when we had booked Walter Pardon for The Singers and Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area to see if she couldn't get him a couple more to make the trip worth his while.
On spec, she rang one and asked did they want to book him.
The nice lady on the other end said she had never heard of him and cou[ld Pat explain what Walter did.
Pat explained who he was, told her of his experience at clubs and the half dozen solo albums he had made.
"Sorry", came the reply, "we only book folk singers".
Nuff sed.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:34 PM

pack it in the pair of you...

you both obviously need more Glam Rock and Disco in your lives....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:31 PM

"If nothing else, the inanities that pour forth from one professional 'folksinger' on this forum convince me that some club performances should carry a health warning"
another inane comment from jim carroll, what does anything anyone has to say on this forum have anything to do with folk club performance, it is ridiculous as me making a judgement on jim carrolls' folk song collecting based on his statements on this forum.
Jim, you are in a hole stop digging.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:11 PM

"But you hardly ever go to folk clubs. What grounds do you have for saying that?"
I stopped going to clubs around 14 years ago - by which time the rot had well and truly set in
I maintained my contact with people whose opinions I respect - many of whom I've worked with in the past who confirm what I believe - some have actually packed up altogether and you might be surprised at some who have said they are hanging in by their fingernails.
The dozen or so clubs I have visited since we moved have been further confirmation of my impression.   
Arguments such as these are enough to convince me that many of the clubs bear no relation to the music I came to know as 'folk'.
If nothing else, the inanities that pour forth from one professional 'folksinger' on this forum convince me that some club performances should carry a health warning
I really have said this on numerous occasions - you don't accept it - tough!.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 01:30 PM

"It is the fact that this is no longer the case in many clubs I find objectionable.

But you hardly ever go to folk clubs. What grounds do you have for saying that?" jim has no grounds at all,he is talking horse shit aka horsemusic, it is not convincing for anyone to pontificate about folk clubs if they rarely visit them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM

"As far a the 'old Scotch ballad, Barbara Allen' - there is a certain smugness in dismissing Pepys statement out-of-hand"
I find it rather smug for you to have to keep referring back to traditional singers that you have collected from for the definition of a folk song, it is not just smug but self important, what you are in fact doing is making your definition exclusive, and excluding all the folk who sang but did not sing songs of the barbara allen type, for example you are excluding songs sung on football terraces, which under the precious 1954 definition become folk songs.
it is perfectly reasonable for Jean Ritchie to have made this statement to guide her in collecting certain songs, it is not reasonable for anyone to then suggest this is the only definition of a folk song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 11:51 AM

Those academics who have done the groundwork tell us that any song referred to as 'Scotch' by the London theatre goers in the 17thc meant anything that was sung in any dialect from further north than Watford, and that included anything written in London that used such a dialect.

I would guess this description applied to the 'Sir John Graeme' variant in vague theatrical Scots, although the Reading/Scarlet version has earlier provenance in print. I would say to me it's pretty obvious that one is a pastiche of the other but I wouldn't like to guess which came first. In the 18thc there was a lot of Scottifying of earlier London pieces, just as at other times there was a lot of anglicising of Scots material.

Whatever, 'Barbara Allen' has been in constant popular print for nearly 4 centuries. This just adds a perspective to the fact that it is the most collected ballad from oral tradition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM

Jim Carroll
Sorry Bryan - not particularly well articulated on my part - the two clubs I mentioned were 'The Singers Club' and 'Court Sessions' both of which I helped to run and sang at (for a short time in the case of the Singers)
What I should have said was, I knew that the type of music I was going to hear corresponded to what I thought folk song sounded like, neither were 'purist' clubs and both encouraged the making and performing of new songs.


Well, that's knocked the wind out of my sails. You seem to have conceded everything I've been saying.

It is the fact that this is no longer the case in many clubs I find objectionable.

But you hardly ever go to folk clubs. What grounds do you have for saying that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 09:22 AM

"The word "folk," however, has no such clear reference."
Yest it does, in fact it articulates in an analytically way what the older generations of songs grew up with.
Not every singer knew Barbara Allen otherwise we would have thousands rather than the couple of hundred versions we have of it.
They recognised it as a type rather than an individual song - this happened to us over and over again while collecting.
Mary Delaney, a blind Travelling woman, gave us somewhere over a hundred songs - she probably knew twice that many.
She referred to them as "My daddy's songs" that his how she defined them.
Her father gave us less than half-a-dozen.
Walter Pardon referred to his hundred or so folk songs as 'folk songs' another definition
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy, called them 'Fireside Songs' and set them apart from his pop and C.& W. songs and his Victorian Parlour ballads - another definition.
Some singers referred to them as 'Come All Ye's', or 'Sean Nós', or 'local', or 'family'..... all definitions which distinguished them from other types.
It seems the modern folkie revival is the only group who have problems getting their heads around this practice - an example of education not necessarily bringing wisdom perhaps.
As far a the 'old Scotch ballad, Barbara Allen' - there is a certain smugness in dismissing Pepys statement out-of-hand.
Despite the fact that he made it his reference to it nearly four centuries ago, we are really no nearer to knowing its origins than he was.
There is no reason on earth why the song shouldn't have originated in Scotland in spite of the highly speculative 'Villiers' theory.
The song was certainly popular there, as it was throughout the English speaking world.
Would be fascinated if the knockers had a better idea of its origins than the rest of us.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 1 May 10:55 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.