What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:21 AM

"I do not know if you are referring to me"
I'm not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:07 AM

I do not know if you are referring to me, but I do not recall calling older traditional singers attention seekers.
one traditional singer Fred Jordan was a very good performer as well as singer.
to make my position clear,in my opinion Harry Cox,
Phil Tanner,Sarah Makem, Jeannie Robertson were all excellent traditional singers.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 04:13 AM

"Really something else" is a good summation of old Muskibumz. I exercise myself every now & then [tho far from obsessive about it] as to what sort of satisfaction the ill-natured little nobody can actually get from being so constantly contentious, snide, spiteful, dishonest ··· particularly as, every little once-in-a-while, when a thread engages his not-altogether-negligible intelligence, he can debate perfectly effectively and rationally, often with some quite cogent points to contribute.

In the main, tho, he counterproductively demonstrates all the traits I enumerate; to the extent that I have, once again, more or less given up the frustrating bother of reading his irritating posts.

If we all did likewise. perhaps he would get fed up and go his ways?

As if! ··· Ah, well, one can but dream...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 04:01 AM

" Walter Pardon claimed antiquity for his own invention."
Walter never "invented" a song in his life, and it is the slanderous dishonesty of statements like this that has debased this discussion throughout.
Smacking each other around in these dog-fights is par for the course, but deliberately setting out to insult the people who not only gave us the songs we sing, but who are no part of any of this, is a cowardly way to behave in order to score some sort of point.
I've always found the grave-dancing that takes place whenever MacColl's name is mentioned distasteful, but he spent his life sticking his neck out and he usually gave as good as he got.
Walter, on the other hand, was a kind, gentle and generous countryman who never gave offence to anybody.
He was born into a family of traditional singers and assimilated many of their songs while growing up.
When the singers in his family died, he began writing down their songs in notebooks and he learned to memorise the tunes on a melodeon,
He kept them alive because he considered them important and when his nephew, Peter Bellamy's tutor, persuaded him to put some of them onto a tape, he welcomed Bellamy, Bill Leader, Fred Dallas, and others into his home so they could be recorded - the end result being that those of us in the revival received a magnificent gift of a hundred or so of his songs, many of them unique, most of them beautiful and extremely singable.
Walter never invented a song in his life, most of them were old, some of them are of great antiquity, particularly the ballads.
Accusing somebody like Walter of dishonesty and "invention" is beyond belief - I can only hope you are a one-off Muskie, if there are many others of your kind in the revival, the music really doesn't stand much of a chance.
You really should be ashamed of yourself, though I doubt very much if you are
At least one other contributor to this debate has accused the older singers of being dishonest attention-seekers, in order to promote his rather strange and often impenetrable agenda, but you really are something else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:47 AM

The tune was originally a folk tune, TCHAIKOSVKY took it and developed it.
Much as Vaughan Williams did with lovely joan, does anyone claim vaughan williams wrote lovely joan, no they feckin dont. the tune that Tchaikovsky used and that is used for john of dreams is a traditional folk tune, check it out.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:12 AM

We morons must up our game and instead of writing folk songs that reflect today's issues for future generations, we must treat the genre as a time capsule that ended when Bert Lloyd made a few verses up and Walter Pardon claimed antiquity for his own invention.

💤

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 01:50 PM

a few years back Derek Brimstone said to me, that Billy Connolly - he can really play the banjo nowadays, he's definitely had lessons from someone quite good....

|The banjo is like the guitar -its one of those confused instruments. i've got a Victorian banjo tutorial book. the Victorian book treats it like a classical instrument. whereas , all the time in America the fretless banjo must have been being developed and all the folk styles - frailing, kentucky up=picking etc. the guitar also - the dreadnought style steel strung guitar - so named because it was big - like the big first world war dreadnought battle ships.

i don't really see how you can play these instruments without you work music being deeply informed by folk music. they are in a way, the voices of folk music, as much as the source singers.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:21 PM

"which box they should sit in"
I was referring to how those of us who came to traditional song from the outside got the songs we sing - from the collectors like Sharp, Broadwood, Greig etc,, as far as I know, very few revival singers got their songs from sitting on their mother's knee.
Only a moron would claim that they wrote a folk song - whoops - there I go insulting you again
Apologies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 10:51 AM

.If you are into folk song, you have been given the songs you sing by people who decided which box they should sit in'

you don't really believe the person who wrote Matty Groves - thought - I know, I'll write a folk song......do you?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:45 AM

Compi fucking lation..

Freudian? Too complicated in musical score for ol' tit trousers?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 03:37 AM

Tchaikovsky of course developing his work from a traditional tune from an area of Russia. The last time I enjoyed an evening with Bill Caddick was at a folk club. I occasionally sing John O'Dreams in folk clubs.

Pretty conclusive if you ask me.

Eyup Michael. I don't know about Cambridge Folk Festival being a joke, but the smiling faces of those of us turning up, the BBC cameras with worldwide distribution rights and hundreds of thousands of sales of the complication albums means someone is laughing.

At you, it would appear.

😂


Go on then, two more for luck

😂😂

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 08:50 PM

"The Walking Dead" just started back on the telly...

Hmmmm... so how would you be able to tell the difference between a zombie Trad Folkie
and a zombie Contemporary Folkie...??????

I suppose at least they'd stop picking fights with each other
and agree they both enjoyed eating live human flesh...

Oh well, if that's what it'll take to end all this perpetual bickering,
bring on the zombie apocalypse....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 08:42 PM

Excellent recording of "John o'Dreams" by Jean Redpath.

Definitely Tchaikovsky.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:28 PM

"Both these clubs state clearly what kind of music you will get, please stop claptrapping with your Carroll Codswallop"
Will you stop your insecure abuse, you friggin' moron - you spend a great deal of time accusing others of being abusive - take your tranquilisers
"and using a trad italian folk tune"
The tune was composed by Tchaikovsky actually - banjo too loud for that sort of song and it managed to drown out most of the words - you manage to destroy the lyricism of what is a very attractive air
Instead of putting up self-promoting clips, try listening to yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:58 PM

He came up thru the folk scene indeed, Phil. But I wouldn't have called The Humblebums actually "folk", would you?, so much as another pair riding on the folk-scene's shirt·tails.

Which in a way is a question-beg, I am aware; as I suppose that is actually what we are discussing here.

For that matter, can shirt-tails be ridden on? Well, no matter. You know what I mean...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:18 PM

A new song that i think is a folk song, written by Bill Caddick, and using a trad italian folk tune
http://youtu.be/aclGARwOjlQ

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:12 PM

Actually Billy Connolly came up through the folk scene & is still a decent performer on the autoharp. He's got the credentials - he's just not a folk performer & hasn't been for a very long time.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:56 PM

The so-called Cambridge Folk Festival has long been one of the great jokes on the folk scene: the one which, as a great concession, would put on a so-called "The Traditional Session" in the #3 tent for a full 60 minutes{!} at the dead time of Sunday lunchtime. I ended a review of it in The Guardian with the words "I won't go again", way back in the 1970s or early 80s [could check my file, but an approximation good enough here] -- a vow I broke only once, at the specific request of The Glasgow Herald, whose Arts Editor had previously worked on The Guardian so knew my work, to review that year's bill-topper, one William Connolly: a well-known comedian and actor with few if any folk credentials. I arrived at Cherry Hinton Hall just in time for his set, and did not trouble myself with remaining proceedings. So your triumphant production of the name of that dire institution as some sort of knockdown argument just about places the fatuity of your stance, I fear.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:46 PM

I was born in the UK. The part of The UK I was born in says, phonetically, tha'. Translated into southern softy, it means "you." A few miles into neenar country, it's 'thar.

NEXT!

Unwary? Read some of the reviews by those buying them. They seem to know (we seem to know if I must be honest) what folk music is. I joined the thousands at The Cambridge FOLK Festival again this year.

Oh, I am a teenager with angst, I come from over there,
I can't get my iPod to link, it's buggered so I swear,
Oh, have you got any thunderbolt, or USB to spare?
Just don't put your hand to your ear, I swear I just don't care..

In fact, I swear a lot. All the fucking time if I'm honest.. Just living the working class dream for those fascinated by it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:32 PM

My own experience is that clubs calling themselves 'folk clubs' are still largely centred around the conventional idea of folk in its broad sense, including but certainly not restricted to traditional music. Those clubs which want to encourage all sorts usually call themselves 'open mics', not least to attract those performers and audiences who wouldn't be seen dead in a folk club. The problem is that without advance knowledge of who will perform it can be difficult to research in advance whether a particular folk club will suit your own tastes, and unless you can rely on a recommendation finding the right club becomes a matter of trial and error. However where there is an advertised guest list it shouldn't be difficult to find out."
A QUOTE FROM HOWARD JONES,good points Howard. these days most clubs have websites if they do not have an advertised guest list, they often have clips of residents and house singers and floor singers, that gives a good idea of what an audience might expect.
here is an example of a club that describes clearly as do many others what kind of music you might get.
Carrington Triangle Folk Club

The Carrington Triangle Folk Club is open every Wednesday at The Gladstone, Loscoe Road, Carrington. It has a range of excellent beers to whet the appetite of any visitor. Singers, musicians, poets, story tellers and just listeners are very welcome. The club enjoys any kind of music or ditty from the ballad to rock n roll both traditional and contemporary. They enjoy singing with other people, and songs with a chorus. They have guests monthly.

A special feature of the club is the free veggy curry provided every week by the genial m.c.
Jim Carroll here is another
Swindon Folksingers' Club

Half a Century of Traditional Folk Music in Swindon

Home * What's On * Links
Folk Club Logo

Find us on facebook
The Club
Ted and Ivy Presentation 2010

Founded by Ted & Ivy Poole and friends in 1960, Swindon Folksingers' Club has a long history of keeping traditional music alive in this busy town in north-west Wiltshire. From its beginnings in the folk revival, the club has seen Swindon's character change from railway town to a modern centre of new technology and financial services; but through it all, Swindon Folksingers' Club has remained as a friendly, relaxed and welcoming place where anyone can come and sing or listen.
Aims of the Club

    To foster good singing and help new singers and musicians.
    To encourage interest in British and other national traditional folksong and music.
    To introduce folksong, music and fok customs to a wider public.
    To work towards, and assist wherever possible, international friendship and understanding.

We welcome performers of all abilities. The atmosphere is friendly and encouraging, so come along and have a go. It doesn't matter how good you are – we all had to start somewhere!
Where & When

We currently meet at Ashford Road Social Club, 17-18 Ashford Road, Swindon SN1 3NT (upstairs) (the club has a licensed bar), on Friday nights from 8:15 – 11:00. (During July and August there are no official events, but you should find a few of us there anyway!)
Issy and David Emeny
Contact Us

The club is currently run by Eric Stott. or you can e-mail us.
Membership and Admission

Membership of Swindon Folksingers' Club is free. You can join on any club (non-guest) night.

Guest Nights: Members £3.50 non-members £4.50

Club Nights: £2.50.

Swindon Folksingers' Club is a not-for-profit organization.
Jim Carroll
Both these clubs state clearly what kind of music you will get, please stop claptrapping with your Carroll Codswallop

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 12:36 PM

No-one objected to your used of dialect: merely to your misspelling it. To reiterate,: "tha", a dialect form of "thou" or "thee", must not be confused with "tha'", a contracted, glottal-stopped form of "that". Not my fault if you can't spell your own dialect correctly, is it, Popgun·me·darling!

Amazon music downloads confirming your misuses merely prove that their posters are as misinformed & mistaken as you. They represent simply those who posted them, not "the world", whomever you might imply as authority by such a fatuous catachresis. They were put online, you know, by those with a product to sell to the unwary, not by Jesus Christ Almighty Himself.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 12:19 PM

One thought one would speak in the dialect that one was raised on dontcha' know?

I was brung up proper so thought, what with this being a folk forum that I would speak with RP as it were. Considering you can't see whether I'm wearing trousers up to my tits or not.

No assertion, no bullying, just that if you go on Amazon music downloads and type "folk" you get an indication that perhaps the world doesn't agree with you?

So why make idiots of yourselves? Come to think about it, why change your tune every two minutes and still reckon everybody else is wrong?

Al gu' tu' foot of our stairs. (Quick Jim, interview me! I'm sounding as if I might be old fashioned enough to fool you!)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 10:14 AM

"That'll be the one for whom the 1954 definition was irrelevant to begin with."
Didn't claim otherwise
THa' does avoid the point - I'll grant you that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 10:03 AM

Just get a big marker pen and scrawl

"THIS MACHINE KILLS FOLK DEFINITIONS"

over the soundboard of your guitar...

There.. solved...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 10:03 AM

Why the apostrophe at the end of "tha", Ian? A dialectical form of "thou", not a contraction of "that" ...

So misplaced --

as, of course, is your apparent conviction that, if you go on long enough, asserting inaccuracies in a tone of sufficiently self-righteous certainty, they will somehow achieve the status of truth.

So please be so good as to stop impertinently telling us in so browbeating a manner what you require us to think, and just go away till you have learned

·a · the difference between 'folk' & 'fake'; and

·b · the difference between reasoned argument and bullying dogmatic assertion.

Just advising you thus for your own good, you will, I trust, understand, to save you from making even more of a fool of yourself.

Ah, me!; a vain endeavour, I do grievously fear!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 09:34 AM

Ah.. That'll be the one for whom the 1954 definition was irrelevant to begin with.

It is a folk song though. Apparently one of The Spinners wrote it and they are folk. My Mum used to listen to them on the telly, singing folk songs.

zzzzzz

The Ballad of Sharpeville is a good example of a folk song. I wouldn't call it a non song though. Keep posting lyrics of folk songs and you are doing a service. Keep saying they aren't folk songs and let others laugh at your stupidity..

Not a folk song... Ehh.. Tha' does talk bollocks, I'll grant you that.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:26 AM

"The ink is black, the page is white"
Ypour nowledge of folk song continues to astound - that partcular 'Black and White' was written by a member of The Liverpool Spinners - not traditional in the slightest sense.
Even so, beats your piece of doggerel hands down.
You want a non folk song about South Africa, try this one, which also stands out like a black man at a B.N.P. rally next to your own creative efforts
Keep making my point for me, you're doing a grand job.
Jim Carroll

THE BALLAD OF SHARPEVILLE (1960)
Ewan MacColl
From the Cape to Southwest Africa,
From the Transvaal to the sea,
In farm and village, shanty town,
The Pass Law holds the people down,
The pass of slavery, DOM PASS!
The pass of slavery.

The morning wind blows through the land,
It murmurs in the grass;
And every leaf of every tree
Whispers words of hope to me:
'This day will end the pass, DOM PASS!
This day will end the pass.'

The sun comes up on Sharpeville Town
And drives the night away;
The word is heard in every street:
'Against the Pass Law we will meet,
No-one will work today, DOM PASS!
No-one will work today.'

It was on the twenty-first of March,
The day of Sharpeville's shame;
Hour by hour the crowd did grow,
One voice that cried, 'The pass must go!'
It spoke in freedom's name, DOM PASS!
It spoke in freedom's name.

Outside the police headquarter's fence,
The Sharpeville people stand;
Inside the fence the white men pace,
Drunk with power and pride of race,
Each with a gun in hand, DOM PASS!
Each with a gun in hand.

         The Sharpeville crowd wait patiently,
They talk and laugh and sing;
At eleven-fifteen the tanks come down
Roll through the streets of Sharpeville town
To join the armoured ring, DOM PASS!
To join the armoured ring.

Neighbour talks to neighbour
And the kids play all around,
Until, without a warning word,
The sound of rifle fire is heard
And men fall to the ground, DOM PASS!
And men fall to the ground.

The panic-stricken people run
To flee the wild attack;
The police re-load and fire again
At running women, children, men,
And shoot them in the back, DOM PASS!
And shoot them in the back.

Sixty-seven Africans
Lay dead there on the ground;
Apartheid's harvest for a day,
Three times their number wounded lay,
Their blood stained all around, DOM PASS!
Their blood stained all around.

There's blood on the men who fired the guns,
On the men who made the laws;
There's blood on the hands of the Whitehall ranks
Who gave the thugs their guns and tanks,
Who help in oppression's cause, DOM PASS!
Who help in oppression's cause.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:34 AM

How many times can you walk in a room and forget what you came in here for...

If the tablets make you fart, ask nurse to get the doctor in.

Good point Al. Whilst a twee song of its time, it does get the point across better than McCartney and Wonder's Ebony and Ivory...

Oh!
The ink is black, the page is white
If its "trad" it must be good (even when it's shite.)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:28 AM

The answer, my friend, is farting lots of wind!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:24 AM

'"I'm a pink toothbrush, you're a blue toothbrush" - a folk song, by somebody's reckoning'

a great song. a modern classic tackling themes of sexual stereotyping on one level; love across the political and social divides in our society, and anthropomorphism and its role in health education.

like Bob Dylan says, how many times can a man turn his head and pretend that he just doesn't see.....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:21 AM

Are you seeing anybody about these fantasies, Popgun? You'll find plenty of efficient alienists in the Yellow Pages, no doubt!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:06 AM

It must be frustrating being a singer and not have groupies throw their knickers at you with their mobile number on eh?

Some of us can't beat them off with a shitty stick.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:45 AM

No no, Popgun darling -- you mean because they fuck the writer.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:16 AM

No Jim. Many people are into folk because they write the fucker

😎

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:04 AM

"Whilst you are all arguing, some of us are busy getting out there, making music and not thinking for a moment what box it should sit in"
If you are into folk song, you have been given the songs you sing by people who decided which box they should sit in, otherwise, we'd still be passively listening to "I'm a pink toothbrush, you're a blue toothbrush" - a folk song, by somebody's reckoning
If you're not interested, leave those of us who are to get on with doing what we do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 04:05 AM

I'm amazed this thread has managed to last so long... though it does seem to be coughing up a bit now
Whilst you are all arguing, some of us are busy getting out there, making music and not thinking for a moment what box it should sit in

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 06:56 PM

If you asked Noddy Holder if he wanted a kipper tie, he'd say yes. With two sugars.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:47 PM

tank tops, fishermen's smocks, flares, platform heels, kipper ties....

time it was, and what a time it was.....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:40 PM

"and in a free country i am allowed to hold contrary views to you"
And in the same free country I am allowed to contradict you when I believe youare wrong, or economical with the truth - as I do here.
You have my opinion and you have my reasons for holding it - throughot its history, The grey Cock was a pretty fierce opponent of dressig up at club nights and I can think of several people who would not of hung around were such practices common - for them, as with the singers club, that stood for everything that went wrong with the folk boom scene - as Billy Connolly once said, "four pullovers singing The Wild Rover"
You also have my views on your unbelievable description of their behaviour on stage.
Pam Bishop tutored the musicians who played there, she was, in turn, trained by Peggy Seeger
The residents once did a booking at The Singers Club - they were pretty good musicians otherwise they would never have got a booking, nor would hey ever have made a Topic record - they were pretty fussy about standards too.
It's hard not to notice that your opening shots at the Club were about their unfriendliness, since when it has expanded to fisherman's smocks and poor musicianship - hmmmmm!
Let's leave it at that Al - "people will say we're in love"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:14 PM

The Nobel Prize is the better experience Al. You don't have to count the spoons afterwards.

Don't worry. We all have a style and mad dog attack just happens to be Jim's. It must be awful being right when thousands are wrong eh?
🐮💩

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:04 PM

well it was a bloke on the door that night. younger than me, and i was only about 27.

i was reluctant to mention to mention MC. it was said in confidence - a private conversation. but i was pig sick of you calling me a liar. i could have mentioned half a dozen other people who were prominent on the Brum trad scene - but i don't know if you would know them.

as for being 'too serious'. why do you think i am bothering to argue with you . i take the business of folk music extremely seriously. its what i did with my life. no kids,. no career. that was me. it wasn't something i fitted in between tea with tony blair, and winning the nobel prize.

when you charaterise my views as being those of a dishonest clown - it really pisses me off. we just happen to disagree. and in a free country i am allowed to hold contrary views to you. and iam allowed to express them, and in civilised company - not get insulted.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 01:36 PM

"pop / folk crossover track"
And I said if I was served that up I would be thoroughly pissed off, can see the pop aspect but the folk one thoroughly escapes me.
I'm an "intrernationalist" too - politically and musically, and I know former Yugoslavia to be capable of far nearer examples of traditional music - that sounded like a mediocre(ish) Herb Alpert to me, but that may be me, of course, I have no great argument with you or your opinions.
"'PFK' a mistyping for me ?"
'Tis, of course, should be PFR - apologies.
"stop contradicting me."
I'll contradict you as long asyou continue putting up descriptions that come nowhere near the facts of The Grey Cock.
If you said the club took themselves too seriously, I would happily have agreed to differ on that one - that was Campbell's criticism when we spoke to him t the MacColl symposium, but your extremely inaccurate and unfair description of the musicianship and the disrespect of the audience blew your cover for me; I know that the musical standards were fairly high and that it was drummed into the residents by the organisers that you didn't faff around wasting time in front of an audience - one of the big no-nos of the club, fairly well stressed in one of journalist, Trevor Fisher's articles about the Midlands folk scene (We're Only in it For the Money?).
Your comments about Carthy took me aback somewhat; I always found him a little like Bert Lloyd, indredibly reluctant to criticise a fellow musician ("if you can't say anything good about someone, say nothing") - a thoroughly nice bloke.
But your 'fishemen's smocks' did it for me - come off it Al - a joke surely?
The lovely Joy Ashworth, who I loved madly, and who did the door throughout the existence if the club, would cut your balls off and hang them around her neck at such a suggestion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 01:11 PM

Is Jim calling people liars?

Perhaps by the time this thread has finished its transition from a genuine question to narrow minded interpretation of a wide musical genre, we will have found new even lower levels for Jim to shout from.

Tell you what Al, there aren't many '70s superstars who can safely say they haven't left their DNA all over the place! I salute you as ever.

Punkfolkrocker.. The word "aggressive" is just his card pushed through your door. Wait till he really starts. You'll be classed as disrespectful to dead people nobody has heard of, a goose stepper who hates music... It's a great club to be a member of and this month we are giving away free mugs with pictures of rock stars who play folk.



© The bloke who wrote a song rather than listen to diddies sing it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 12:17 PM

sadly i neglected to take photos or leave my dna on a beer glass.

to be honest - i remember i had read about Terry Yarnell in in fred woods folk review, and the name Charles Parker was of course familiar to me from radio ballads. so the whole experience was a disappointment and a kick in the face that upset me. i had roy palmer's book folk in the midlands.

you don't remember the merely ordinary nights. that was my experience - an unfriendly and arrogant crew. if you don't want me to keep on about your friends in this manner - stop contradicting me.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 11:45 AM

Back from the bathroom now...

Jim, I never said that track was a British folk / pop crossover..

[I'm an internationalist, that's always my default stance...]

I specificaly described it as a "pop / folk crossover track"

nothing more , nothing less
and the context I described was half a continent away from UK Folk clubs,
and safe middle class sensitivities...

As for "there is no way that can possibly be described as folk in any shape or form"

I think you'd find those war zone fight hardened Yugoslav blokes
might have been in strong disagreement with you there...???

Btw.. is 'PFK' a mistyping for me ?
If so, I'm surprised to be called aggressive !!!???

What me..???
.. in my part of the West Country we were half punk half hippy...

I'm careful to never be belligerent in debating my views,
that's not me, my style, or personality.

Though I do think you tend to be a tad over defensive,
constantly scrutinising every word here through a high gain sensitivity filter,
seemingly endlessly on the look out for things to get annoyed at.

I actually agree with you to a fair extent.

How many more times do I have to moan here about that bloody expensive 'Folk Night' out in Clevedon,
where all we heard was one piss poor rendition of a Beatles song after another,...

If "'PFK" was not meant to refer to me, sorry for misreading..

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM

"i'm not lying Jim and i do resent you saying that i am."
Sorry Al - that is not the Grey Cock as I knew it throughout its existence - if anything, it was accused of being somewhat po-faced and over-serious - one of the comments made by Ian Campbell when he appeared at the MacColl symposium concert .
One of the things that was established there was a total respect for the audience - starting on time and not farting about among themselves - not ever, it would bnever have been tolerated.
You've seen the research work and the achievements by the club and its members - including the incredibly devoted 'Banner Theatre' - non of theis would have been vaguely possible without a level of commitment
The idea of 'fisherman's smock' uniforms is a joke, it really is.
Sorry - I don't believe you - but should you care to provide evidence for your accusations I will be happy to apologise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 11:02 AM

' I have never known anybody stoop to the level you have in attacking fellow folk music enthusiasts in the way you have.'

really! i know this bloke who goes round calling fellow musicians - clown, liars, dishonest....

and the thing is i'm not dishonest. the memory of the grey cock is perfectly clear in my mind. it was the only singers night i ever went to - didn't go to another one after being informed on the door that i wasn't welcome. though i went several other times to see peggy and ewan.

first of all - the fisherman's smock on the door - with three other fisherman's smocks - two men, two women got up. two penny whistles and two guitars. they buggered about for about twenty minutes - starting various tunes and then tailing off in self satisfied laughter. then a bloke with a beard and smock, got up and said he had lost nine pounds in fifteen days by just drinking water. then he sang van diemens land in a rather tuneless fashion.

i'm not sure i stayed much longer......

at the star, the old crown, and the prince of wales - they all pissed themselves that i'd been daft enough to go there. all traddy venues. many years later, i told Martin Carthy about the evening - and he said - well that surprises me not at all......

i'm not lying Jim and i do resent you saying that i am.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 10:56 AM

"If you go to a 'classical' concert with no further information you will have no idea whether you're going to hear Mozart, Beethoven"
I think this is true to an extent, but all these types have ben long established and fall into their own identifiable genres of music under a general heading.
I'm quite fond of both trad and modern jazz, though I do prefer to know what I'm setting out to hear before I venture forth.
This is not what is being argued for here, and if I turned up to a folk club and was given what PFR has just put up I'd be ******* livid - there is no way that can possibly be described as folk in any shape or form and it would be a complete con to attempt to try (thank you for the perfect example, BTW).
From the word go there have been a wide variation of styles on folk scene ad you learned to suck it and see.
Virtually all forms could be traced back to traditional music in one form or another (even Zimmermann, when he was using folk forms to create), but now, it seems folk clubs are being used as platforms for any kind of music - the term has become totally meaningless within the folk scene.
The aggression with which PFK states his preferences is fairly typical of much of this and many other arguments - it is not just a takeover that has taken place, but an extremely hostile one - that has led to acculturation (one genre being displaced by another).
If folk song had not been so well documented and archived it would have been lost to us totally.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 10:03 AM

Tit Trousers ???

Shit Trousers more like...

bloody end of sell by date Tesco spicy chicken wings....

aaaagggghh.. here we go again.... I might be some time...


So, have a listen to this while I'm away inspecting the damage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSgxpX8ylxA

and turn the speakers and bass up to 10 !!!


My absolutely favourite ever pop / folk crossover track
which I first heard looped on infinite repeat playback
on the soundsystem in a dark seedy undeground bar in Bratislava in 1996.
An extremely drunken night with dodgy shady cut-throat looking
but very friendly & welcoming Yugoslav blokes
escaping the conflict in their own land..

One of the best nigts in my life from what I can remember,
even though me & the mrs barely understood a word of limited broken English they said.

I never knew which side they were on, or even if they were escaping war criminals...???
But they were top 'new best mates for one night only'
back in the days when we used to do that sort of reckless thing...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 09:10 AM

Howard says nicely something similar to what I say but in a style Jim would be familiar with....

Imagine going to classical concert and getting baroque! I'd be sending terse letters to The Times. Sir, blah blah. Yours, dissident in Paddy Land.

🎼🎶🎶🎸🎸🎷🎹🎵🎻

😎