What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:09 PM

Michael. They all sang folk songs. Whether they wrote them, arranged an old song that has evolved or borrowed heavily from the latter to write the former, they are all folk

Here in The UK, you and I hardly hear traditional music of many UK citizens, unless we listen to the background music in Indian restaurants.

The folk club scenario is in itself an evolving tradition, and far cry from smug committee types sitting in a smokey room sixty years ago, before most folk music had even been thought of.

The thing is, with UK folk music alone selling in the millions by exciting young acts, selling to a generation who would prefer to squash their balls in a vice than sit with a straight face in many "singarounds", I think the world has decided what constitutes what folk is. The clubs of the '70s onwards did too for that matter.

If you read all that tosh about music of the people, then realise the white middle class academics of the '50s sitting down categorising for future generations who thankfully toss their silly paper in the bin, didn't realise that music of today's "people" has to entertain too, and in many cities, cultural heritage begins a few thousand miles away.

The West Indian bloke in The Spinners realised the problem back in the '60s for crying out loud. Listen to Benjamin Zephaniah and Eliza Carthy play Tam Lin Retold. If you want to make traditional music relevant to "the people" I can't think of a better example.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:59 AM

altogether now.. singalong.. join in the choruses if you will..

1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. just substitute "Folk for "Love"...


This is not a folk song

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:50 AM

Moreover, the "mushrooming" of the folk clubs occurred in the 50s rather than the 60s; and were a British, not American, phenomenon -- the Greenwich Village coffee-house scene was different in nature from our pub-based clubs. & not really "down to" any of the names you mention, but rather to Gilfellon Handle Anderson Ross in Newcastle; MacColl Benbow Syms Quaye Whiskey in London; Harris & friends in Nottingham; Kelly-Bootle in Liverpool; Stewart & Bell in Edinburgh...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:41 AM

A very sensible post by Howard again, but all been said in this thread a dozen times at least.........and ignored.

Just one little quibble.....second para, first line 'origins'. I'm sure you meant to say 'a process of acceptance and moulding' as you did in your last para. Origins of course are irrelevant as Jack will tell you, and the 54 definition quickly got rid of that one.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:34 AM

Pete said "That's not a folk club, it's an anything club" -- not a "nothing" one as you misquote, Al. If you are going virulently to attack an influential statement by a dead man {"effrontery and arrogance of every traddie fundamentalist"} wouldn't it be well to cite it accurately?

Baez and Seeger sang predominantly traditional songs; Dylan and Donovan didn't. The first three named were American, the fourth wasn't -- as you accurately assert he wasn't English; but he was a Scot!; yet you write as if the influence you claim was entirely based on that of American singer-songwriters.

With so much confusion and inaccuracy, why act so wounded because some people might not consider your effusions self-evidently entitled to the nomenclature and status you claim for them?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:20 AM

you will still have difficulty with some, who if you look back, maintain that 'folk' is not a style!

But that depends on which meaning of 'folk' you are using. In one sense, it can only mean style. In the other sense it describes origin, and then it is correct to say that it is not a style. They are quite separate in their intent, and it should be obvious from the context which is meant. It should only be confusing if you refuse to recognise that the other meaning exists.

It is this refusal which is the root of the problem, and the reason why this thread has continued for as long as it has (and why there are countless similar ones). Neither is it one-sided - there are those who insist it can only mean style as well as those for whom it can only mean origin.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:08 AM

well if someone who won't listen to you decides you are untalented SP, and you are willing to accept their verdict. its a bit of a gutless response to a bully.

as for Bellamy's remark that we are running nothing clubs - well there you have the effrontery and arrogance of every traddie fundamentalist.

the fact is that the reason folk clubs mushroomed in 1960's was down to four names - none of them English - Baez, Dylan, Seeger and Donovan.

the mushrooming is what gave Carthy, Bellamy, Fairport, Steeleye etc. the chance to make a living initially. The folk boom didn't happen because of MacColl, Walter Pardon, or Sam Larner. And it soon bloody stopped when the people turned up to find gangs of people who wanted to perform their songs. well it was easy to blame the yanks with their superficial flashy guitar skills, nicking traditional tunes, and phoney voices. Even easier to stand up - not having bothered to learn the guitar.

And now the music which filled the folk clubs and inspired a generation to get up and do it - according to these wiseacres, its not even allowed to regard itself as folk music, not allowed to call itself folk music.

Some neck......

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:28 AM

Re: Acoustic music...

errrr.. I have a significant problem with that because I am an Electric 'Folk' musician...

Let alone any snobbish superior elitist value-laden connotations
of the word 'Acoustic'.... ???

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:22 AM

'To return to the original question, a new song can only become a 'folk song' if it goes through a process of acceptance and moulding by a community of people which turns it into something different from the original. However it can still be 'folk' if it meets the accepted stylistic conventions which that label implies.

Actually Howard, I think you may have cracked it there, that's probably the most sensible statement I've seen on this thread, although you will still have difficulty with some, who if you look back, maintain that 'folk' is not a style!

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:55 AM

It occurs to me that we are looking at this from the wrong direction. What is meant by 'folk', and what is meant by 'jazz', 'pop', 'rock', 'classical' or any other genre of music is essentially a question of style and structure. Within any of these labels there may be a wide range of styles - Dixieland jazz sounds very different from bebop, Mozart sounds very different from Stockhausen. However by convention styles can be grouped within particular labels, although the edges may be blurred (and individual pieces or performances may defy categorisation). They are nothing more than a convenient way of knowing which section of the record shop to head for and a convenient shorthand description. To discuss any of them in more detail requires more precision of language and a different vocabulary

What makes it so difficult for us is that within the 'folk' categorisation is a particular body of music which is defined by its origins. Fr various reasons some of us (although by no means all) place a particular value on this. However we don't have an agreed term to describe this - or rather we did, but this has been usurped to describe the category as a whole. We therefore use the same word in two different ways. This is not unusual in the English language, and usually it is perfectly obvious from the context which is meant.

To return to the original question, a new song can only become a 'folk song' if it goes through a process of acceptance and moulding by a community of people which turns it into something different from the original. However it can still be 'folk' if it meets the accepted stylistic conventions which that label implies.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:51 AM

'Would it be misinterpreted if I suggested "Unpopular songs" – just to distinguish them from "Pop music" of course?'

Not sure that I'd be comfortable describing the non traditional songs I perform as 'unpopular songs' although some of our audience might ;)

But I take your point ST, If you look at publicity material we've used for the band it describes us as playing a mix of 'traditional, modern and original songs and tunes' although all grouped together under the term 'folk' and I've always been comfortable with that.

The term 'Acoustic' I've never been entirely comfortable with, it's a 'catch all' term and too loose, and could be any genre performed with acoustic instruments, but at risk of upsetting some, if I see an event billed as 'acoustic night' it immediately conjures up images of navel gazing singer songwriters for me.

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:42 AM

"but it still leaves us with the same problem. What do we call the songs that you say 'that I would like to be folk songs because I like them or because the audience applauds them when I sing them in a "folk club"?" (Bounty Hound : 29 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM)
Would it be misinterpreted if I suggested "Unpopular songs" – just to distinguish them from "Pop music" of course? (See also below)

"It appears from your post that you perform a mix yourself, so how would you answer that question when talking to someone who did not know what you do?" (Bounty Hound : 29 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM)
The amazing thing is this never seems to come up in the conversation elsewhere!! (I do sometimes tell people that I "go down to the pub and sing a few songs" but that's about as far as it ever gets before they lose interest.)

"It just seems to me the best available pragmatic compromise is still: TRAD FOLK & CONTEMPORARY FOLK" (GUEST,punkfolkrocker : 29 Sep 14 - 07:58 PM)
I'm also a pragmatist and, although I tend to look on the traditional (1954) folk as "real folk", the term Contemporary Folk has been around for as long as I've been singing "folk" and I'm comfortable enough with its use – so long as it isn't abbreviated. It's the abbreviation of both terms to just "Folk" that breeds confusion. Much "contemporary folk" has more in common with Pop music than traditional folk and probably about as much in common with "traditional (idiom) folk" as it does with classical music or Trad. Jazz.

I wonder if this discussion is about a world that's already moved on though. I've noticed that the term "Acoustic Music" is becoming much more popular and I think it's replacing "folk" in clubs and pubs. It's probably only persons of a certain age and the recording industry that hasn't yet moved away from the term folk completely – and the latter's as likely to use the term "World Music" as anything else.

To pick up another issue that's been raised here; like a few others I would be upset – if I took this aspect of Mudcat seriously – by the hyperbole that seeks to ridicule the older song carriers and their songs. My personal principle is that I only insult friends, only to their face and only those that I know will not be offended and will be able to respond with suitable repartee.   To insult those, mostly dead and certainly not present, who kept songs alive, not because they wanted to be "folk stars" or even specifically for us to rediscover the songs but simply because they enjoyed those songs, seems ungrateful to say the least. I also don't think it's justifiable to blame cliques for not allowing one entry, that's the nature of cliques. It may be the "traddies" not wanting to hear contemporary players or vice versa: it may musicians resenting singers in their sessions or singers complaining about too many tunes. These things tend to be gatherings of like minded individuals, if you don't fit in, find somewhere else but don't blame those already there. Not wishing to blame my own failures on terminal unpopularity I usually blame it on my lack of talent.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:09 AM

I seem to have amassed a bunch of random CD-Rs in the kitchen from various sources - there's even one by Wigan singer Sid Hague, he of the This is not a rock 'n' roll song but a folk song about rock 'n' roll fame. Folk is replete with idiosyncratic stylists like Sid and Michael though. I've always thought the true Keepers of the Tradition were the most idiosyncratic in their approach - be it Davie Stewart, who's a bit of a hero of mine, and Jim Eldon, who I reckon is the finest exponent of Traditional Folk Song & Ballad the revival has ever had to offer. Peter Bellamy - a more effected talent in my book, but none-the-less an extreme stylist, however so contrived - was likewise eccentric and suitably cranky to the cost of a career spent trying to appeal to an increasingly conservative MOR folk scene. The result? Pure Genius! This phenomenon I call Galootism after Davie Stewart's infamous nick-name; it's the very essence of the thing for me - the irony of idiosyncratic & highly eccentric individual stylists operating in the name of an objective tradition.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:42 AM

Wouldn't go well with my bacon, egg, baked beans and a slice of black pudding though...

My breakfast accompaniment tends to be John Humphrys...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:11 AM

I can do better than that, Musket - only this morning over a breakfast of oat bran & Amlodopine I was listening to his CD-R album (Butter & Cheese & All) he sent me some years back which often finds its way on the wee kitchen hi-fi.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:00 AM

He doesn't look for it, he makes it...

Just tell him you used to loved reading his reviews back in medieval times and he is putty in your hands. Al tried that trick and it worked.

Mind you, I'm sure Al once told me he could have bowl of alphabet soup and shit better reviews?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:49 AM

Then keep it civil, you old reprobate & stop looking for trouble where there is none.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:28 AM

Sorry if you're offended, Jack. As u say: just a blether!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 04:51 AM

Why make this personal, Michael? It's just a blether. The more the merrier.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 04:44 AM

Boy, doesn't Jack {or S O'P or Sean or Sweeney Agonistes or O'Bagpipe·Music or whoever he's being this week} go on?! Does anybody actually read his o-so-convoluted posts right thru? Or come away with any actual distinct impression of precisely what he is on about, I wonder?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 04:34 AM

So is Thelonious Monk's Round Midnight "contemporary folk"? Is literally anything that somebody does at a folk club "contemporary folk"?

After 40 years experience of Folk Clubs I'd have to say yes it is because any music can be folk in a Designated Folk Context. With all due respect Phil, you singing a Monk song is hardly Jazz, is it? In terms of technique, tradition and lineage it's not part of that tradition; similarly, the bloke who used to sing Nussum Dorma at one club I used to go to was hardly singing Opera, or the amazing harmonica player on Tyneside who can do Ravel's Bolero & Pachelbel's Canon (has to be heard to be believed) is not playing Classical Music.

That's the nature of the beast. Folkies sing with an amateur passion (generally) under no illusions of their artistic status for the simple fact that the empirical reality of Folk is more about context than content. Others get up in a pub for a spot of Karaoke - a Folk Club is exactly the same only with a more pretentious clientele convinced that in singing bona-fide Traditional Songs they are doing something worthy, slipping in the odd curve-ball (i.e. songs they actually like & listen to in real life) to maintain their sanity. Like you singing Round Midnight, or me singing Up on the Roof (don't ask) or even a bona-fide Traditional Singer like Jane Turriff singing Away out on the Mountain. It's just a good night out, socialising with a few mates over a few pints, just like any other form of amateur music making really only the designation is, for whatever reason, Folk.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 03:33 AM

If your audience has a beard and fairisle sweater with sandals and still claps at the end, you are possibly playing folk. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Mind you, that's women for you. The men can be far more discerning...

🎭

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 03:16 AM

Great. So what's contemporary folk?

Here's something I wrote upthread:

Before I sat under the traddie bodhi tree I was an eclectic so-and-so. Songs I did at the Folk Club included...

King Strut (Peter Blegvad) (done as a dramatic monologue)
Nicky (Momus) (free translation of Brel's "Jacky")
Round Midnight (Monk/Henighan) (after Robert Wyatt)
Dominic Takes A Trip (Edwards) (a song of my own whose sole purpose was to take the p*ss out of two other regulars at the club)

You get the picture. Inclusive of what? Any damn thing. Why? Because I thought it would be fun. And the fact is, it was fun.


So is Thelonious Monk's Round Midnight "contemporary folk"? Is literally anything that somebody does at a folk club "contemporary folk"?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 03:00 AM

Ditto Mr Punk.

Jack. Trade secret re 🙈🙉🙊

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 07:58 PM

It just seems to me the best available pragmatic compromise is still:

TRAD FOLK & CONTEMPORARY FOLK

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:45 PM

I reckon the songs of Ralph Mctell are also contemporary folk songs.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:29 PM

if you had a road map that took you to Venezuela instead of Basingstoke - you would discard it.

folksong is a living artform. your roadmap has taken you to a comfortable inlet. folksong comes from the bustling throng of humanity on the highway.

you have a definition of folk music that excludes all the working classes of England, apart from those who look as though they belong in a black and white photo of the 1950's.

in other words you have cut off the source. none of your folksongs were fashioned other than by people of lowly origin, who took the creation of song seriously.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 05:23 PM

Didn't know I had any "insistence" rights, Ian -- oh, if only. But I don't see why I should be less entitled to put my opinions than anyone else. If they are not to your taste, I fall back yet again on Merchant Of Venice, IV i 65: "I am not bound to please thee with my answers".

Precise definitions are going to be 'narrow', for that matter. Over-broad definitions will clearly be less precise than narrow ones: think about it.

"Perhaps Michael, traditional songs are called folk too because someone said so?" -- They are called Folk because W J Thoms said so, in 1846. Who denies it? & what of it, then?

≈M≈

Talking of Gyles Brandreth, BTW; he once interviewed me on Radio Cambridge when I had written something in contradiction to a view he had expressed. Most charming man; made a point of keeping off the topic at issue between us and just giving me a most agreeable and affable time. But, for all his charm, I am not sure I would regard him as a final arbiter as to what arguments may be permissible in any specific instance; certainly not on the basis of that nice linguistic conceit you cite; which is not however, actually, when analysed, all that meaningful.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:21 PM

if you had a road map and it sent you the isle of man istead of Edinburgh.

you'd know it was a load of crap.

that's whats wrong with the 1

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:19 PM

That is the most arrogant offputting 🐂💩 I have read to date.

How you do these pictures, Musket? Or am I only getting 'em since I got my MacBook? I never noticed them before...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:08 PM

No idea Phil. Genuine answer.

I just hear so many people introduce a song as "possibly not folk" it seems obvious and from catching many a person afterwards at the bar and chatting, that at some stage, someone has said "that isn't folk."

So so sad, and why so many clubs are calling themselves acoustic or roots clubs now, because of the stigma the weirdbeards have given good, contemporary folk.

Interesting Hitchin FOLK Club list there Dick. Wild Willy Barrett is also touring with his old mate John Otway at present. I used to jam with him at "The Junction" at Bulbourne.

Michael astounds me with his insistence that folk should be reserved for such a narrow band of what is folk. I just read the latest edition of "Acoustic Guitar." They have a listing of the latest album releases that readers may be interested in. I suppose real journalists know what people expect by the word folk eh?

Perhaps Michael, traditional songs are called folk too because someone said so? Such statements are Tommy Twoways, to quote Gyles Brandreth.


A taxi driver doesn't need to know horse husbandry in order to get a hackney licence.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:06 PM

I call them, as you do here, Dick, 'new songs in a traditional idiom'; not to be confused with the welter of protest or whimsical personal experience, so often unjustifably subsumed under the 'contemporary folk' label, but which bears scant resemblance to anything which any one with any real knowledge of the genre would recognise as related to true 'folk'. YMMV - & indeed would appear to do so?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM

'The purpose of a definition is to enable the precise identification of something. To achieve this it needs to be as objective as possible.'

A well thought out post Guest.ST, You set out clearly the purpose and need for a definition, but it still leaves us with the same problem. What do we call the songs that you say 'that I would like to be folk songs because I like them or because the audience applauds them when I sing them in a "folk club",?

If we are going to avoid the sort of confusion that many have talked about in this discussion, then we have the same need to define those songs in a concise way that people will understand, and can, as Punkfolkrocker says, distinguish them from other types of song.

I'm happy to group it all together as folk, with trad, songs in a trad style and other contemporary folk. When performing, I would always differentiate between traditional and new, but what do I tell the casual enquirer when they ask what sort of music I play? (I of course use the 'F' word) It appears from your post that you perform a mix yourself, so how would you answer that question when talking to someone who did not know what you do?

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 03:48 PM

Hitchin Folk Club

Programme 2014
        
Admission         £12 members, £14 non members. All ticket events, with prices, stated below.
        
        Doors open 7.30pm (soundcheck permitting), concert starts 8.15pm.
        
        
        
October         
5th         The Urban Folk Quartet plus Mike Excell
12th         Lucy Ward Band plus Black Feathers
19th         Chris While & Julie Matthews
26th         Martyn Joseph This is an all ticket event. Members £13, non members £15
        
November         
2nd         John Renbourn & Wizz Jones plus Alan West , Adam Sweet & Steve Black
9th         "Songwriters Circle" with Amy Wadge, Pete Morton & Luke Jackson
16th         Wild Willy Barrett's French Connection
23rd         Megson plus Zoe Wren
30th         Gigspanner
        
December         
7th         Showcase Night hosted by Kelly Oliver and featuring some of acts that sit in our audience.
14th         St. Agnes Fountain (Sold out)
21st         Albion Christmas This is an all ticket event. Members £13, non members £15
        
January 2015
11th         Life & Times
18th         Churchfitters
25th         John Kirkpatrick
        
February         
1st         Bully Wee Band with Phil Beer
8th         Songwriters Special with Mike Silver & Johnny Coppin
15th         Tannahill Weavers
22nd         Jackie Oates & Tristan Seume
        
March         
1st         Jim Moray.
orLewes Saturday Folk Club
Elephant & Castle, White Hill, Lewes BN7 2DJ 8.00 pm
http://www.lewessaturdayfolkclub.org/
LOYALTY CARD: 6 visits = £5 credit.

2014
SEP 27 SET ON THE DOWNS £5
The Dorset Arms, 22 Malling St. Lewes BN7 2RD
Aisling Murray, Rowan Piggott, Joy Paley and Izzy Carroll
Four young musicians & singers of Irish, English and American traditional music, each with an impressive musical pedigree.

OCT 4 TERRY MASTERSON £5
Royal_Oak/Lewes'>The Royal Oak, Station Street, Lewes BN7 2DA
Traditional Irish songs with guitar & unaccompanied, presented with wit & charm.

OCT 11 HARVEST SUPPER in the presence of JOHN BARLEYCORN £4
Bring songs, tunes, poems & readings for the harvest. We serve home-made harvest loaves, English cheeses & apples. A Lewes Folk Festival event: http://www.lewesfolkfest.org/LFFindex.php

OCT 18 THE TWAGGER BAND £6
http://www.twaggerband.co.uk/The_Twagger_Band/Home.html
Mostly traditional music & song with concertinas, dulcimers, bagpipes, whistles, psaltery, harmonium, recorders, bouzouki, mandolin, guitar, serpent & crumhorn.

OCT 25 MÁIRE NÍ CHATHASAIGH & CHRIS NEWMAN £10
Virtuoso Irish harp & guitar playing & singing. Entrancing.
MÁIRE NÍ CHATHASAIGH IRISH HARP WORKSHOP
http://www.mairenichathasaigh.com
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £35
Many times an All-Ireland and Pan-Celtic award winner, Maire has developed profoundly influential techniques for harp performance of traditional Irish music. She gives regular workshops in Ireland, the UK, USA and Europe. Learn some lovely tunes from the Irish tradition and discuss appropriate rhythm, phrasing, ornamentation and accompaniment - primarily by ear and imitation, though written music will be provided.
CHRIS NEWMAN GUITAR WORKSHOP
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £35 Royal Oak, Station Street, Lewes BN7 2DA
Chris's playing is full of grace, brilliance & humour. As well as being steeped in traditional music he has played with Diz Disley & Stéphane Grappelli & Fred Wedlock. He is the guitar tutor on the Newcastle University traditional music degree course. The workshop will cover technical exercises, ways of playing cleanly and economically, and a look at several different musical styles. Music will be sent out in advance.

SATURDAY 1st. NOVEMBER 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £15
Elephant & Castle, White Hill, Lewes BN7 2DJ
SINGING FOR BEGINNERS DAYTIME WORKSHOP
Want to sing but a little nervous that the right sounds won't come out on demand?
Tutor HALEY STEVENS http://www.voiceworkshops.co.uk

NOV 1 MOIRAI http://www.moiraitrio.co.uk/ £6
Jo Freya, Sarah Matthews & Melanie Biggs sing & play saxophone, keyboard, fiddle & melodeon in this exciting new trio.

NOV 8 CAROLYN ROBSON & MOIRA CRAIG £7
Moira's silvery voice & Carolyn's warm, honeyed tones combine beautifully in songs from Scotland & Northumberland. As well as being distinguished solo singers, they were until last year two of the three members of the well-loved trio Craig Morgan Robson.
CAROLYN ROBSON & MOIRA CRAIG VOCAL HARMONY WORKSHOP
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £30
Essentials of group singing; learning some songs in harmony; working out your own arrangements; using harmony to create interest & excitement in a song. Music reading is not essential but some music may be available if needed.

NOV 15 JODY KRUSKAL http://www.jodykruskal.com/ £7
Direct from Brooklyn NY, Jody is a master of the unruly Anglo concertina, squeezing out vintage US tunes & songs that are hilarious, gritty & true - often with strong bluesy flavours & fine choruses.
JODY KRUSKAL:US OLD-TIME & VINTAGE MUSIC for all concertina systems
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £35
A few American old-time songs & tunes for learning, simple techniques to get that American sound & develop elements of style & accompaniment. Some music will be sent out in advance.

NOV 22 DOVETAIL TRIO http://dovetailtrio.com/about.html £6
Fine young performers Matt Quinn (voice, melodeon, concertina, mandolin, fiddle) Rosie Hood (voice) & Jamie Roberts (guitar, voice) present England's traditional songs with a bold & fresh approach.

NOV 29 JERRY O'REILLY http://www.jerryoreilly.net/ £7
A commanding, spellbinding singer steeped in Irish traditions, beginning with singers in many generations of his own family. He helps to run the foremost traditional singing club in Ireland, An Góilín.
JERRY O'REILLY: IRISH TRADITIONAL SONG WORKSHOP
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £30
Vocal decoration, song selection, Irish broadsides & Irish language songs translated into English. Teaching will be by ear and will include listening to recordings of inspirational traditional singers.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 03:33 PM

mgm, what do you call macColls songs, if they are not contemporary folk? or cyril tawneys songs or john connolys songs, or keith marsden they are all contemporary or new songs that have been mistaken for trad songs.
this whole thing is bloody ridiculous , just have a look at the guest list of a club or listen to a video of the singers who are residents you get a very good idea of what you are going to get,

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 03:10 PM

I'd have no discomfort restricting myself to only using the word 'Folk' to refer to 'Trad Folk'..

Except.. problem then would be, how would we distinguish what is loosely considered 'contemporary folk'
from all other contemporary music..???

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 02:55 PM

"Traditional folk and contemporary folk are both folk."
.,,.
Arguable, to say the least. In the case of the former, it is so by definition. In the latter, however, it is so because someone has chosen to say it's so. A fine example of [in the true sense of petitio principii] the perverse debating trick known as "begging the question": ie assuming the truth of what is to be established as part of one's initial argument.

What we are discussing is, in fact, whether "contemporary folk music" is, in a meaningful sense, folk. So Musket's above statement is self-evidently a bit of tail-chasing obscurantism. Isn't it?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 02:45 PM

I am fed up of seeing well meaning people, who want to listen to others and at the same to time have an outlet for their own practicing, almost apologise with "Err.. I don't actually know if this is folk or not, so apologies before I sing it..."

Why don't you just tell them to sing what they like and not to worry about whether it's folk or not? Why is it important to tell them it is folk? Genuine question.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

In my opinion Folk music is quite a broad church, a a performer I tend to sing mainly trad material, but that does not mean that I do not appreciate other forms of folk music apart from those I sing.
it is quite obvious from looking at guest lists of folk clubs what kind of folk music you are going to get, as regards singers nights it is very easy to look at the clubs website and get an idea from videos of floorsingers or residents what you might be in for.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 12:59 PM

Bang on Jack.

If someone wants to be comfortable with an arbitrary definition, then for them it is real. A bit like superstition. You either have an imaginary friend or you don't. Completely irrelevant to the person next to you, and you can use the same queue at the supermarket checkout.

Jim said in reply to some poor sod who asked how a song he writes might or not might not be folk that it is not for the person to decide. It if isn't folk it never can be. That is the most arrogant offputting 🐂💩 I have read to date.

I am fed up of seeing well meaning people, who want to listen to others and at the same to time have an outlet for their own practicing, almost apologise with "Err.. I don't actually know if this is folk or not, so apologies before I sing it..." Every time I hear words to that effect, I curse the pompous librarians who confuse their cataloguing with entertainment.

A love of some traditional music can help you in many other genres, but a traditional song insomuch it sounds traditional or a traditional song because it is so old no bugger knows who wrote it, is not the be all and end all of folk.

Traditional folk and contemporary folk are both folk. There was little contemporary folk around in 1954, so let's put that old chestnut to bed. Anyway, mudcatters in The USA must be bemused by this fascination with old men pretending to be inheritors of an English farming tradition being worshipped for claiming their mother's knee is the origin of song.

The librarians can folk off.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 12:44 PM

"I take Jim's point that it might be nice to be able to tell in advance what to expect but I don't think that will ever happen: some battles are already lost."
it happens all the time when there is a guest booked, if martin carthy is booked you know what you will get.
The problem is singers nights, but if you got to clubs with decent residents like the wilsons club in billingham you know you will get a high standard of singing,
IN OTHER WORDS IF IT IS A SINGERS NIGHT FIND OUT ABOUT THE RESIDENT SINGERS.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 12:38 PM

COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC

Bloody hell! I use a hand held old style Kaossilator 1 & a K-Pro mostly for the vocoder but it really is a doozy unit; I've even got a K-Pad Quad thang which I use with the MS-20. I've been tempted by the 2s for a while now; in fact I was planning to get one for my folk-hating son for Xmas! Nice one pfr! Thanks for the heads up!

Related : I'm on the verge of buying a Moog Theremini which seems like an expensive toy, but we've got a gig coming up in Sheffield in November and I want to use it on Tam Lin... Basically a kaossilator you play by waving your hands around - I have a mind to use it with my Line 6 delay modeller & EHX Super Ego for max layered drones...

*

The purpose of a definition is to enable the precise identification of something

Fair enough with chairs, eggs, carpets & kaossilators, but how can you define so nebulous a concept as Folk without diminishing the very essence of the thing you're setting out to define, assuming it exists at all?

The 1954 Definition defines NOTHING with any sort of clarity or objectivity. It is 100% subjective ineffable twaddle from beginning to end and about as much use as The Horse Definition in telling us anything at all other than that a) people play music in communities and b) all music derives from what went before it and changes as it gets passed on. This is true of ALL music; all music is born of observable traditional process but all music (thank God) is not Folk.

Understanding the corpus of Traditional Folk Song & Balladry is NOT a matter of defining, but a matter of close & exacting musicological & ethnomusicological analysis. We can describe them, but we can never define them. They have given rise to a concept of Folk in the same way as so-called Green Men have given rise to a concept of Paganism and yet they are quite separate from that concept. They are NOT folk in that they precede the Folk Concept and exist quite independently & autonomously from it. That autonomy is essential to their appreciation - likewise an understanding of the culture & times of those who made and sang them. Also their nature in terms of organic fluidity that is barely hinted at in recorded & collected 'variations' which are as much use as to understanding such things as a stuffed swallow will tell you about migration patterns.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 12:14 PM

Thank you GUEST,ST for one of the best recent posts on this thread.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 11:51 AM

The purpose of a definition is to enable the precise identification of something. To achieve this it needs to be as objective as possible. Whilst I don't necessarily like the "1954 definition", it is as objective as possible and is, therefore, a useful definition. I may agree that those who first coined the term may have had little real knowledge of a culture they claimed owned the "folk process" but it still remains as near an objective definition as can be achieved.   The other "definitions" presented here are subjective rather than objective and therefore, as definitions, are not useful. In order to know what would be classified as a folk song using these alternatives one would need to be able to read the mind of the person using them. There are plenty of songs that I like, that I would like to be folk songs because I like them or because the audience applauds them when I sing them in a "folk club", but any attempt on my part to classify them as such would be subjective. A definition is not about my likes or dislikes or even the audience's likes or dislikes.

There also seems to be much confusion here with songs that are popular with folk and songs that have been created by a "folk process" and even between the subjective decision of "good" and "bad" songs. A friend once passed a quote on to me about singers. To rephrase it: "A good singer stands behind the song, a poor singer stands in front". I think you could turn this round and say "A good song can stand in front of the singer". In other words it should not need to rely on arrangements or "performance".   That's not to say that you couldn't produce or enjoy a good arrangement etc, just that the song shouldn't need it to live. I was thinking of this in the context of folk songs. I can't think of a folk song (1954 style) that can't stand on its own. They wouldn't have survived, been passed through good singers and bad, if they had relied solely on the performance. Perhaps that's what Phil Edwards identified when he found traditional folk song, the inherent quality of the song itself. I'm not quite such a purist as Jim Carroll – I haven't completely given up hope that the "folk process" could still operate but I think a good test for candidates would be to see if the song would still work if you stripped away the guitar riffs, the "arrangements" and even the presence of an audience to laugh in the "right" places.

I'll add that I don't just like the "1954" folk songs (some I actively dislike). My own repertoire is made up of about 50% songs written within the last 50 or so years with known authors (even, in some cases me). I never go on a first visit to a club or singaround expecting to sing or prejudging what I'll find. Once I've found out what style prevails, and if I can match some of my own repertoire to it, I may go back. If I don't think I fit in I don't blame them or accuse them of some sort of conspiracy. Some places I return to over and over again - and some have even let me in again!    I take Jim's point that it might be nice to be able to tell in advance what to expect but I don't think that will ever happen: some battles are already lost.

(P.S. I'm just off now to buy a pair of "Bench" underpants to display above the drooping waistband of my trousers. I find having my trousers falling off helps with my credibility in some circles as well as making sure my hands are too busy to stick fingers in my ears. (No offence to rappers intended – I have always been impressed by their dancing skills.)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Bounty Hound
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 11:48 AM

"Ok, fill in these forms... Next !!!"

Well that will be no problem, punkfolkrocker, as look as we have to queue first to get the forms ;)

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 11:38 AM

BACK ON TOPIC

Mrs punkfolkrocker recently had to present her passport to the local Town Hall
to prove she is who she says she is or else...

So I could imagine circumstances where inflexible authorities
could insist that 'Folk' proves itself to be 'Folk'...

Perhaps when applying for ever diminishing arts grant funding
or high profile media awards..???

Then definitions might be of utmost importance.........

"Is that a new song?"

"Yes"

"Is it a new folk song"

"Well.. yes.. I'd say so, I think it is.."

"Can you prove it to our satisfaction ?"

"ermmmmm..."

"Ok, fill in these forms... Next !!!"

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 11:24 AM

COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC

Jack while you're here, have you noticed korg mini kaoss pad 2
has been knocked down to £49 recently ??

Just ordered off amazon to see if the BPM detection is any good.


Also, Korg KAOSSILATOR-2 Dynamic Phrase Synthesizer down to 75 quid;
but doubt if I'll get one, unless they go much cheaper.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 11:09 AM

Life is one big session, Phil.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 09:24 AM

"You're far more likely to get Echoes, Hibou, Anemone and Bear or The Revealing Science of God"

You must go to very different sessions from me!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 08:55 AM

Tell the same person they can draw freely on the untapped wells of their primal inner creativity and you'll probably end up with "let's all join hands and save the weasel".

Not at all! You're far more likely to get Echoes, Hibou, Anemone and Bear or The Revealing Science of God - real middle-class music born of real traditional process.

*

The point is that Folk as a concept / definition was hatched at a significant remove from the phenomenon it was trying to understand by those of a social class who couldn't cope with the idea that the master song-makers & singers of the lower orders were actually in full control of their own culture. Needs must they had to be innocent of its true meaning and significance, just as to early folklorists they were innocent of the paganism they were unwittingly perpetuating in their quaint seasonal rites and dances. Interesting that such Victorian Paternalism persists to a quite alarming degree in the way folk is perceived and presented to this very day - perhaps even more so in the dark underbelly of weirdlore where post-modern hauntological irony is often overlooked in favour of more earnest Frazerian perspectives.

As such, Folk is a theoretical construct that looks at the phenomenon it calls Traditional Music whilst demanding absolute authoritarian complicity from the practitioners whom it exploits in the consigning their hard work to the realms of anonymous process where the singer is only of value because of the songs they sing, not as creative artists in their own right. The VOTP CDs are classic example of this, where once treasured respectful LP collections of such individual masters as Harry Cox, Willie Scott, Sam Larner, Davie Stewart, John McDonald, Felix Doran et al are split up to favour taxidermy & taxonomy over ethnomusicology / ethnography as an academic perspective.

Please note, I am not anti-academic; it is thanks to academics who know more about more body than I ever will that I am alive right now to write this at all. It is also to academics and scientists that I defer with respect of the Cosmic Spirituality of the Material Universe that has inspired me during some very dark moments. But when it comes to music...

The willingness and complicitness of the old singers to participate in this colonial exploitation is down centuries of lower class servility and disempowerment - a continuity of feudalism in Western Culture going back to the Norman Conquest* and beyond in the ordered certainty Kipling celebrates in the patronising paean to feudal tradition that is The Land. Out of this is Folk constructed as a myth of proletarian culture tailored for bourgeois tastes and mores up to and including latter-day lefties who think The Land is a pamphlet for Socialist reform, and that Folk is somehow radical to that end too. But nothing, I fear, could be further from the truth.

It begins with Cecil Sharp hearing John England singing the Seeds of Love on 22.8.1903 and being so moved by the beauty of it, what does he do? He makes fecking parlour arrangement of it to entertain his upper class pals with that very evening. There's your Folk Revival right there - parlour arrangements of working-class music made for the entertainment of the upper-class whilst the very real and entirely feral business of Popular Music Making continues apace and unbroken since time immemorial.

Hardly the wonder these days Folk is anything but Trad; it's about the people who are making the music regardless of the idioms they are making music in - all of which begins to sound uncomfortably like a paraphrase of the 1954 Definition....

* For example, Delaval Hall in Northumberland has only come into the care of the National Trust in recent years. A mere ten years ago it remained in the hands of the same family (give or take a change of name as inheritance passed from the male to female line) since the lands were first granted by Duke William shortly after the Norman Conquest. This is England!